Origins of the Wardens

After reading this thread on GWO, I decided to research the origin of the wardens. (To those who intend to read that thread, it is a thread on the Slyvari and a possible link to the Wardens due to the origins and Urgoz’s tree-look). This research is to find who or what the Wardens were before being Wardens, or where they came form. Also, to show why the Wardens are similar/different from other similar races.

Wardens



The Wardens live in only one place, the Echovald Forest, which means that they are bound to that area. That means that they have to deal with the Forest itself, and cannot/do not want to move to other locations.

According to the Factions Manual:
So according to the Factions Manual, the wardens were once humans, most likely druids, that merged their essence with the forest. So that removes the idea that was on GWO about the Wardens being born like the Slyari, and therefore removes the possible link.

Although removing a link from one forest-dweller, it makes another to a different type of forest-dwellers. The Druids. The Druids, as evident from the Scriptures of Melandru, were once humans.

The Druids gave up not only their individuality, but their flesh as well. They took their involvement with nature a step farther then the Wardens. Another way to help the connection between the Wardens and Druids would be the quest dialogue for Wicked Wardens.
This dialogue supports both the Factions Manual and the theorized connection to the Druids. Druids combined their essence to the Maguuma, Wardens to the Echovald. The reason why the Wardens are hostile and the Druids are not is because of the corruption that took place during the Jade Wind.

Urgoz



Another thing that must be looked at is Urgoz himself. Urgoz is the leader of the wardens and he was corrupted by the Jade Wind. Because of the game mechanics, the wardens will always attack the players and other NPCs. Lore wise, Urgoz was killed shortly after Shiro was defeated in Cantha, and according to the Eye of the North manual, when the earth quakes start occurring, the Echoald Forest is starting to become green and no longer petrified. So, with Urgoz, my theory to introduce is: Was Urgoz what kept the Wardens mad and the Echovald Forest petrified?

My reasoning for this first deals with the Eye of the North Manual.
Clearly after Urgoz’s defeat the Echovald Forest is returning to how it was. Of course, this can also be said to be the result of Abaddon’s defeat, as it was his power that corrupted the Echovald Forest. I disagree with the Abaddon theory on this, because although it was his power that corrupted, the Realm of Torment is still rather messed up after his defeat. I think that the ones who kept the corruption in the Echovald forest was Urgoz, the corruption in the Jade Sea was Kanaxai, and the Realm of Torment was Mallyx, at least after Abaddon’s defeat(for Mallyx that is).

Another fact that supports my theory that Urgoz was the one keeping the corruption in the Echovald Forest present is that the closer to Urgoz the players get, the more “Maddened” the enemies are, you have Maddened Dredges and Maddened Wardens for example. The Wardens are only maddened when they are near Urgoz, why? Because he caused them to become mad.
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In summary, Wardens are not like Slyvari, which are born from seeds. Wardens were once humans who gave up their humanity to be able to protect the Echovald Forest, which makes them more like the Druids of the Maguuma then the Slyvari. Also, Urgoz is what kept the Wardens as being hostile and kept the Echovald Forest petrified.

Thanks for taking your time to read my research and theory.

Thats very in depth and logical (to me) and i can honestly say that i never thought about any of that. Good work!

(also: the links dont work properly)

I wish there was a warden NPC, as there are, for example, Dredge NPC's that give quests and give more insight into the history of their people.

Nice research though I disagree with the reasoning behind the return of life to the Forest and Jade Sea. I believe it was bound to happen sooner or later. Even before EoTN we see lots of signs of growth in the Forest, green moss and plants taking firm hold in Melandru's Hope and Mourning Veil Falls (in both locations the waters, incidentally were not turned into Jade, it seems)

Btw I had hoped the dredge at Urgoz would be sort of like those at Sorrow's Furnace, since we are fighting the corrupt wardens who are "It's good to see you again, <name>. We are even worse off than before, though I convinced many to withdraw from contact with the Kurzicks. We had thought to take this ruin as our home, at least for a while, but these creatures called wardens will not give us a moment's peace. And so more of my people die. I really cannot take much more of this, <name>. None of us can. Please destroy the wardens before they destroy our dream of freedom!" (Moleneaux)

For the water in the echovald, it was never turned into Jade, the water there was unaffected, only the ground and trees (and some wildlife) were turned to stone, and for the Jade sea, only the sea was turned into jade (which incased some marine life).

Also, the Dredge in Urgoz Warren were corrupted and driven made by Urgoz, which is why I thought it was Urgoz who was corrupting everything in the forest. It was just my thoughts and theories.

Edit: There is no real way to prove if the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest are returning to normal due to Urgoz/Kanaxai's death, Abaddon's death, Shiro's 2nd death (or his rebirth), or if it is simply because of time passing by. All those that I just mentioned are possibilities and it is impossible, at least to what I have knowledge of, to be sure which one of those is the truth. It could be that its the combination of some/all of those.

What about Shiro? The EoTN manuscript is after the events of Factions. Shiro became mortal again and this time when he was killed, the Oracle came and petrified his body. And his soul was taken away for a time out with the Lich. Wouldn't those events rank higher as the cause of the Jade Wind, undoing itself both in the forest and the sea? And whats your source that Urgoz is actually and permanently killed?

Btw, I don't think Urgoz is the leader of the Wardens. Powerful, yes, but just a Warden and one of many. But the Jade Wind corrupted him so bad, that the corruption started leaking out and affecting those around him(hence all the madden folks around him). And he eventually set off into his own corner of the forest and his started his own cult, if you will, that was more aggressive then the rest of the Wardens, hence he was left alone by the Kuz(until our merry little band came along).

And even if Urgoz is gone, I don't think the Wardens have stopped being hostile(with those in his Warren returning to their normal hostility levels). The Factions manual states quite clearly that the Wardens were pissed off that they couldn't stop the Jade Wind, pissed off that it was humans who allowed it to happen and that they were trying to reverse it on their own. Even with the forest coming back to life, they still have every reason to "protect" the forest by driving away any human presence that can cause it to happen again.

If you look at my second post, I say in an edit that what you just said is a possibility. There are also other possibilities for the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest returning to normal, and as far as I can figure out, it is impossible to know which is the true cause. Also, I said that the death of Urgoz, lore wise, took place after shiro's second death

Urgoz is the leader of the wardens, Vash says "Urgoz and his wardens," as does Urgoz's Wiki page. "Urgoz and his wardens" means that he controls those wardens. Also, he is classified as a plant, not a warden. It could be that he just took another step towards being one with nature then the (other) wardens did though.

It really is unknown to us if the Wardens were still hostile after Urgoz's defeat, as the two elite missions are basically the very last thing storyline wise in Factions. I would have to say that since the Echovald Forest was still petrified, the wardens were still hostile, maybe not as hostile, but still hostile. I also never said that the wardens were hostile only because of Urgoz, but that he makes them more hostile and that he has kept them hostile by keeping the forest petrified. Also, once the forest comes back to life, they might not hate humans anymore, they might go back to only attacking those who harm the forest and the wildlife. However, that day might never actually come as Emperor Usoku removes all non-humans from Cantha, which would include the Wardens. So, again, hard to know if the Wardens become non-hostile after Urgoz's death, or if they would become non-hostile if the Echovald Forest returned to normal.

The line between human and plant can be crossed, it seems, in the Echovald forest. Take the Juggernauts for example, they were once human but became constructs (plantoids?) whose lives are now bound to the Forever Trees.

please do a research about dredge, im too lazy to read about wardens this morning tbh, gotta finish my tea then get to work.

molenin is my best mate, research him if u got alot more free time gg nice work

I actually have a list of things I want to try to research (I won't say what so that it'll come as a bigger surprise then Vizier Khilbron being the Lich ), I only research things that interest me, and the Dredge, not so much. However, if I get through the stuff I have listed and can't find anything else, I will consider it.

Could it be that the wardens of echovald forest are actually the Stewards of Nature mentioned on Melandru's statue? All i really have to go by are the wikis, so if anything else is mentioned anywhere, i would like to know. kind of interesting if you ask me.

It certainly makes sense, however the first quotation shows they could have been Holy Men, and the second shows they layed waste to where they camped and they were a godless tribe.
This is a really good link however, and thanks for finding it, I just don't know whether or not it fits

Maybe Melandru is the first warden she's a lot like them protecting the land and such

maybe a better link here. i did use search before i posted this topic. not sure why this didn't come up.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10297091

i didn't see where in the scriptures of mel it said that the druids were these "stewards of nature". it's a possible explanation and, of course as you say, it's really impossible to know for sure. i thought that the urgoz and his wardens may have been ewan and his tribe originally since they are the protectors of the echovald. the wardens themselves aren't particularly plantlike but urgoz sure is. i don't know. just another theory.

Something I noticed for the search thing, is that it has to be the word exactly. I'm guessing that you put in "Wardens' Origin" or "Warden" or "Wardens'" which then would have come up with nothing.

It is never stated outright that they are the same, but the scriptures say that Ewan and his men "sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees." Which means that they would look like the Oakhearts and therefore Druids.

And as being "stewards of Nature" that means that they care about it, and since they are trapped like that for eternity, some more devout druids would give up their flesh to become one with the Maguuma Jungle, the less devout are probably the Oakhearts that we fight in the game.

So the connection is that where the Ewan and his men became Druids by force, Wardens became so by their choice. It being their choice proves your idea that Ewan and his men are Wardens wrong, and the Wardens don't have branches coming out of them (exception of Urgoz of course).

nowhere that i see, does it say Wardens chose to do anything. it says they merged. that doesn't make it voluntary. it is also just speculation on what they were or did before becoming wardens. it also says nothing about ewan becoming druids. it says stewards of nature. there is also nothing i have read anywhere calling the druids the stewards of nature. i don't believe either of us can say they are the same thing. of course, neither of us can say they aren't the same thing either.

lol. btw, nothing you can write or say here proves anything. it's all just conjecture.

True point, but I never said it was fact, but my opinion.

As I just said, never said it was fact, my opinion and observation. and you made your argument sound like it was fact too, just so you know. -mumbles- hypocrite

let's review my post.


maybe some of those bolded parts did make it sound like i was stating theory as fact. you may be right.

whereas you said


you did say in your OP that it was impossible to know for sure, but in the post quoted above you sure made it sound like fact.

anyway, i'm just giving you a hard time, man. i actually think your theory is more probable than mine.

First, touche.

Second, I am a little aggravated from yesterday and my statements may have been biased and not fully true. But whatever.

no big deal, man. nice research btw.

one little researcher you are, i love reading ure posts yust wish i could think about the game like u did

one big (aka very tall ) bored person I am. And thanks for the comment, I do hope to get to another topic to research soon.

I like this, I think urgoz being the source of the corruption and likewise Kanaxi causing the currption of Jade sea makes sense. I would vote that you look more into Outcasts, They serve as guards of Kanaxi, and your average pirates dont go working with deamons.

Well, in short, the Outcasts are Luxons who were driven mad by the Nightmare Demons (Kanaxai's Demons), eventually they turn into Oni, and possibly into Aspects of Kanaxai. The turning into Aspects part is speculation but the Outcasts being Luxons driven mad and then turning into Oni is proven by a few NPCs' dialogue. Not many "new" things to look into imo.

Ok did not know if outcasts where originally luxons gone corrupt or a completly different sect this makes sense.
If they become onis what are onis doing in Echovald/Shing Jea. Echovald might be currpted kurziks but the Jade wind never hit Shing Jea. Unless the reason teh onis in shing jea are low level is because they are newer, but I think that is just game mechanics

The Outcasts are Luxons driven made simply by close proximity to Kanaxai, actually. Also, the Oni are nightmares of Kanaxai's that just appear out in the world to cause havoc. However, it is possible that Outcasts could become Oni if they were to come even closer to Kanaxai.

The Oni being once Outcasts is actually just a theory presented by a Luxon NPC, Dauv Merishahl.

I really can't explain the presence of Oni in Shing Jea or Echovald Forest, I think the Shing Jea Oni are there just to "introduce" the idea of assassins and their shadow step pop up, can't say for the ones in the Echovald though.

Ironic, really, that's the same NPC's dialogue I read before posting my reply.

Well, the Location is called "The Deep", so juding from that and the location of Cavalon, The Deep is most likely not in the area. In order to dig deep in the Jade, there had to have been a lot of depth in the area around the time of the Jade Wind. The area around Cavalon is close to land, so it's fairly undeep. We can thus assume the location of The Deep is elsewhere.
Going from what we have on the map and in terms of foes, there's 2 possibilities. Either to the South of The Aurios Mines (going from the large number of Oni and Outcast in the Quarry) or to the West of the Leviathan Pits.
That second one is because of a few reasons.
1) It's almost at the center of the Jade Sea, which is most likely where one of the deepest points lies.
2) This is going by the Luxon Quarries. We can see that there's a few quarries right next to the Echovald Border. The others are south-west of Gyala and just below Seafarer's Rest. We have a large Quarry in the East of the Jade Sea, namely Rhea's Crater. Digging another huge hole in the area seems unneccesary. Whereas quarries to the West would provide new large amounts of Jade that can be transported to the frontline faster. That's most likely the reason to place the Jade Quarry and another small one so close to the Echovald.

So, the centered location (if that is the location of The Deep) might explain the presence of Oni in the Echovald. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Oni don't appear in the deepest parts of the Forest, such as around Amatz Basin. The furthest I can remember Oni is just south of Vasburg Academy, around the Monk boss.
Oni on Shing Jea is...erm, I dunno. Maybe leftover magic from the time Kanaxai was still free and once roamed around Shing Jea?

Wait random thought, The deep was all jade as if underwater befor the wind all mined out, but the end part, with kanaxi is all rock, more like an underwater cavern. Assuming urgoz is a). a super druid that got currpted or a physical manifestation of the currption and a source. If a is true then what was kanaxi befor, did he always live in cavern or just move in. And another random thought. Victor and Archemourus where both killed killing shiro. Most likely be the death scream. A real off shoot but could they have been super corrupted and became urgoz/kanaxi, just a real random thought. But the origin of kanaxi is odd to me. Urgoz is semi explainable and feels organoc to his enviroment. A tree manthing makes semi sense in a forest. A demonic twin axe fighter? Not so much.

What a about the Oni in Arborstone? Its not that far from the Jade Sea itself but is from the supposed locations of The Deep. Also, one thing to consider is where the outpost itself is, when you press M, it will be centered on the location of the outpost, even without an outpost symbol. Its been too long since I've gone to the deep, so I don't recall where it was, but I think it was to the south west of Cavalon. But I am probably wrong.

Not possible. Both of those warrior's spirits are within their respective objects in the game. They were not corrupted and they (rather involuntarily) help the players fight Shiro, until the object's destruction in Sunjiang District. Also, Urgoz was around before Shiro was as well, I'm not sure if it is mentioned if Kanaxai was, but it is positive that Urgoz was as his Warren was home to Kurzicks until he became corrupted.

Yeah I thought Urgoz was around before, but that leaves the origin of Kanaxxi unkown, seeing as he is also killed befor EotN you can assume he had something to do with the curroption. If he is the jade seas alter to Urgoz in the Echovald, what was he beforhand. a super sea fish?

I wouldn't say he was a fish, as he has a humanoid look. Just as the Kurzicks believe that the "Spirit of the Forest" either died or became corrupted (which caused the Wardens to go berserk), that could mean that Urgoz was a representation of the Spirit of the Forest, which could mean he is the embodiment of the corruption in the Echovald Forest. And if so, then Kanaxai would be a representation of the Spirit of the Jade Sea, which means he is the embodiment of the corruption of the Jade Sea.

In short, Kanaxai could be the embodiment of the Jade Sea's "spirit" which was corrupted.

And Ritualists and, perversely, Dervishes and Paragons can, with the help of Kuunavang, invoke the two for the final mission...

(I really think Dervishes should have got Storm of Swords instead, and Paragons probably could also have got something that fit better. Celestial Stance, possibly.)

Regarding Oni in Echovald - could that simply be that ex-Luxons transformed into Oni still hold onto their prejudices, and continue to raid Kurzick territories just as they did while human?

THat is a possibility for the Oni, although I don't think that is very probable. Just by becoming Outcasts, they seem to hate the other Luxons, and they ally with the Kurzicks as well, as evident in this quest to get to Gyala Hatchery.

Good point. It could be, however, that there are some that are affected differently, or that these particular outcasts just happened to be traitors rather than influenced by Kanaxai.

I'm a huge Lore freak, I know how it all went down...

Back before the Jade Wind, the Kurzicks lived in the Echovald Forest (back then a peaceful, green, wood forest) and the Luxons lived in the Jade Sea, traveling to trading outposts all through Cantha as they sailed across the ocean.

Obviously, the Kurzicks and Luxons were living in their respective environments before the Jade Wind. The Kurzicks would've had to carve their homes, cathedrals, and monuments into the WOOD. There's no way they could move in *after* the Jade Wind and carve all that stuff out of STONE. The Luxons sailed across the ocean and traded - looking up info for the Leviathans tells you that they had to be converted into land-mobile vehicles, proof that they were there long before. Hell, you can even look it up in the timeline of GW - first the Luxons became "vassal factions" of Cantha, then several years later the Kurzicks followed en suite, *then* many years later the Jade Wind happened. Way back then, the Kurzicks and Luxons were peaceful with each other.

So we have that cleared up? Good.

The Wardens were druids or holy men, as the Manuscripts say. The "Spirit of the Forest" that it mentions was Urgoz. Back then, the Wardens protected and helped the forest and Urgoz guided them. Obviously, the Luxon equivalent is Kanaxai, although I'm not sure as far as which group of foes would have been his "helpers". Anyways, when the Jade Wind happened, it turned Echovald to stone and the Jade Sea to jade - as you know. Whether it was from the Jade Wind itself or from their respective environments being ruined that corrupted Urgoz and Kanaxai we may never know, but either way, they were twisted mentally and physically, along with their servants. This is NOT like Kunnavang being corrupted - Kunnavang was directly possessed by Shiro to do his bidding, Urgoz and Kanaxai were corrupted for the two above reasons.

The Jade Wind was caused by a purely HUMAN affliction. There was no outside or supernatural force involved - only the power of Shiro being demonically released as the result of an unfortunate chain of events. As a result, Urgoz, Kanaxai, and their respective servants (the Wardens and the creatures of the sea) began to hate humans, for what they did to them, or for what they did to their environment, or both.

The Kurzicks and Luxons began warring only after the Jade Wind. They would have had no reason to beforehand. After the Jade Wind, resources would have OBVIOUSLY become scarce for both Factions - the forest was now stone, they couldn't grow crap, the sea was made of Jade, they couldn't sail places and trade with people. Not only that, but now both groups have lots of baddies to deal with. As a result, they would naturally try to best each other in a desperate struggle for resources.

As far as life sprouting up in the Echovald and puddles appearing in the Jade Sea, that's very likely. From the time the Jade Wind was released up until the time Shiro dies, the Jade Wind is still in the background, somewhere in the Mists, the very force that corrupted both environments in the first place. Not only that, but Urgoz and Kanaxai are still corrupted. Defeating Urgoz/Kanaxai is only slightly after defeating Shiro in the official Lore, and the comment about life in Echovald and water on the Jade Sea are in the Eye of the North Manuscripts. In the official Lore, the events in Eye of the North take place a few years after Nightfall, which is a few years after Factions. So at the time of the comment, it had been several years since both the Jade Wind had been permanently sealed and Urgoz/Kanaxai had been defeated - plenty of time for the environment to start changing back.

We probably won't know completely until GW2, though. HOWEVER, only just a FEW YEARS after the events in Eye of the North takes place, the successor to Emperor Kisu (who was killed in the second-last mission of Factions, if you remember) completely KILLS OFF both the Kurzicks and the Luxons. He shuns all non-humans from Cantha, barricades the borders and shuts off all trade to the outside world. At the beginning of the GW2 Lore, nobody has been to Cantha from the mainland for a full generation.

So my best guess, whether it's in the first installment of GW2 or in a future campaign where you're probably "the first people to Cantha in a generation", you'll visit Echovald and the Jade Sea, at which point both environments will be uninhabited by human life, due to the genocide of both vassal factions, and back to their original Arboreal/Oceanic states, since it's been 250 years since they started changing back.

If you have any questions or if I left anything out, quote me.

Seeing how this thread wasn't about the Luxons, no need to mention them really. As for the Kurzicks, it is not only easily possible to carve things out of stone, but it also states in game that there are stone buildings from before the Jade Wind. I'll even quote for you my source for there being pre-Jade Wind stone buildings:

The bolded part is what I'm talking about.


Where is your source for the "Spirit of the Forest" being Urgoz? I have stated somewhere in the thread how he was not the Spirit of the Forest, please try to prove me wrong as the other person tried. Also, there is no mention of Kanaxai being Urgoz's equivalent (which in turn means Kanaxai is the "Spirit of the Sea"). Urgoz and Kanaxai, for all we know, were not twisted physically. It's not even known if Kanaxai was twisted. Also, Kuunavang was not "possessed" but also corrupted. Whether by Shiro during the Factions timeline or from the Jade Wind is unknown.

The Jade Wind was not purely human affliction. As stated in the Prima Guide for Factions (so I'm told, as I don't have it myself), Shiro absorbed magical essence from the emperor (as seen in the opening cinematic) which was a gift from Dwayna, according to what I've been told from what the Prima Guide says. In other words, the Warden's anger (not truly the creatures of the sea) is focused in the wrong direction.

The Kurzicks and Luxons have fought long before the Jade Wind. This I am sure of, but sadly I cannot find my source. I will try to find them later. And they would have reason before hand, the biggest reason would be territory, just like now. Resources are only wanted in the form of Amber and Jade, new resources that were made during the Jade Wind, in other words, the Jade Wind just increased hostilities. Also, I don't believe the Kurzicks grew anything in the first place, not much can be grown in a forest, and we have no evidence of farms. As for the Luxons, they still trade with people, they just changed their method of doing so.

this is the first whole paragraph I mostly agree with, the only thing I have problems with would be what I bolded. First, where is your source for the Jade Wind being in the Mists? The Wind stopped at the edge of the Echovald Forest/Jade Sea. If it didn't all of Tyria would have been wrecked by the Jade Wind, not just the two areas. For the two years, its Pre (2 years later) Prophecies/Factions (3 years later) Nightfall (1 year later) Eye of the North. Just a little reference for you. So the manuscripts are dated 4 years after Shiro's death. Just to be more specific.

The time between Eye of the North and Usoku's reign is unknown. All we know is that Usoku is Kisu's son, and during the time of Factions, Kisu is 50 years old *looks younger then that though...* Also, he does not kill off the Kurzicks and Luxons, he merges them into the empire. Changed them from Vassals to an actual part of the empire.


What you really left out, is your sources for all of this. Half of the stuff I know to be wrong. You may be a lore fanatic like me and a few others, but please don't sound so sure of yourself. I'm sure I made some mistakes myself, but at least I don't say that what I said is 100% accurate. Also, if your such a lore fan, you should look into The Archivists Sanctum [Lore] .

There are a few errors in your analysis:

First, Kanaxai isn't Urgoz's counterpart from the Jade Sea. His background is unclear, but he's basically a demon that got trapped in the Jade Sea. It's possible that there was some other form of binding that was disrupted by the Jade Wind that kept him bound while the sea was still liquid, or maybe he was just unlucky. Either way, he wasn't a previously benign spirit that was corrupted - he was a demon all along.

I dispute your claim that the Jade Wind was a purely human-caused event: we know Abaddon at least was stirring the pot. We'll probably never know if the power of the Jade Wind came purely from human sources, purely from Abaddon's power, or something in between, but while plenty of other races blame humanity alone (naga and the wardens, for instance), it's not clear that that is actually the case.

Finally, [SPOILER] Kisu wasn't killed in Factions - if you succeed in the mission you successfully rescue him only to have Shiro kill Togo to fuel his resurrection instead. All evidence indicates that Kisu lived out his normal span until his son came into power. Furthermore, he doesn't kill the Kurzicks and Luxons - he conquers them, which is an important difference - it's the nonhumans that he's trying to wipe out (and I'm guessing he isn't going to be successful). The Echovald and the Jade Sea will still be inhabited, it's just that they'll be back under the united Canthan flag... unless they're not. Two centuries is a long time, after all.