Am I the only one that realises (for heroes) that having a full skill build isn't necessarily the best? By giving your heroes all the skills you're asking them to use them all in some way with each other. Sometimes skills won't go well with others, according to heroes.
Sometimes I find the most efficient build is one which has a few skills missing, as the skills that are chose work well together, whereas any others would be used for the sake of it.
Builds
Shantei
captain_carter
you could of course just disable them, and then have them used when and if you want them.
Shantei
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Originally Posted by captain_carter
you could of course just disable them, and then have them used when and if you want them.
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Shaz
I never run incomplete hero bar. Say you run a SF heroes and you want it to spam SF and glowing gaze, there no reason why you can't have the rest of the skill bar with some more e-management and utilities like hex/condition/ or enchantment removal. It's not like they can spam that unless the condition is met.
Shantei
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Originally Posted by Shaz
I never run incomplete hero bar. Say you run a SF heroes and you want it to spam SF and glowing gaze, there no reason why you can't have the rest of the skill bar with some more e-management and utilities like hex/condition/ or enchantment removal. It's not like they can spam that unless the condition is met.
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Abedeus
Mine don't wait. Maybe you should try bribing yours?
Everything is fine. If you want heroes to use a skill, force them to do so. If you want them NOT to use, disable, easy.
Everything is fine. If you want heroes to use a skill, force them to do so. If you want them NOT to use, disable, easy.
ProgTes
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Originally Posted by Shantei
Am I the only one that realises (for heroes) that having a full skill build isn't necessarily the best? By giving your heroes all the skills you're asking them to use them all in some way with each other. Sometimes skills won't go well with others, according to heroes.
Sometimes I find the most efficient build is one which has a few skills missing, as the skills that are chose work well together, whereas any others would be used for the sake of it. |
. I nearly always give my heroes 5, 6 skills at maximum, and it works like a charm.
Shaz
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Originally Posted by Shantei
Exactly for e-manage. Actually, why is it when condition removal skills are equipped they never cast them straight away? I have heroes, they're not doing anything, full energy, but wait to cast it..?
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As for the not using something right away, maybe sometime they are in the middle of casting something, but generally they use it pretty quickly for me. Or maybe there is a build that's better with incomplete skill that I don't know of, can you post an example?
Shantei
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Originally Posted by ProgTes
I thought I was the only one
. I nearly always give my heroes 5, 6 skills at maximum, and it works like a charm. |
It does work great I find!
Just because you have 8 slots doesn't mean you need 8 slots. Although I'm sure some people find 'I wish I had more skill slots' and if so, you really should rethink your build ^^
Also why henchman don't have all skills slots filled, to make them as efficient and general as possible maybe...
Shaz
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Originally Posted by Shantei
Just because you have 8 slots doesn't mean you need 8 slots. Although I'm sure some people find 'I wish I had more skill slots' and if so, you really should rethink your build ^^
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Shantei
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Originally Posted by Shaz
Yea, you don't need it, it's PvE. But I can't think of any build atm that can't be improve with a full skill bar. So again, post an example.
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LoD
Healing Whisper
Healing Ribbon
Cure Hex
Healing Breeze
And you're right with the best builds being full, but here, I was talking about Heroes. Many heroes don't use the builds that are made for a specific purpose.
Turbobusa
disable them if you don't want heroes to use them.
You might need the added skills. If you don't, you lost nothing, if you do, well at least you brought them.
EDIT: the above build can be improved even with that number of skill slots lol
You might need the added skills. If you don't, you lost nothing, if you do, well at least you brought them.
EDIT: the above build can be improved even with that number of skill slots lol
Shaz
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Originally Posted by Shantei
Channeling
LoD Healing Whisper Healing Ribbon Cure Hex Healing Breeze And you're right with the best builds being full, but here, I was talking about Heroes. Many heroes don't use the builds that are made for a specific purpose. |
Edit: or power drain/leech signet
Shantei
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Originally Posted by Shaz
Other than the fact that that's a pretty bad build, I dont see why it can't be improve with at least condition removal and a Res Sig.
Edit: or power drain/leech signet |
Shantei
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Originally Posted by Turbobusa
disable them if you don't want heroes to use them.
You might need the added skills. If you don't, you lost nothing, if you do, well at least you brought them. EDIT: the above build can be improved even with that number of skill slots lol |
Shaz
Sorry if I seem rude, but I'm just being truthful, don't take it personally. Just because a build works, doesn't mean that it's good.
Shantei
Lmao, then what does it mean? Haha
Shaz
It's PvE. A mending/HH W/Mo can beat the game, does it make that build good? no. It just work because it's PvE, but it certainly can improve by a lot.
Xx_Sorin_xX
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Originally Posted by ProgTes
I thought I was the only one
. I nearly always give my heroes 5, 6 skills at maximum, and it works like a charm. |
what a bad idea. just because it works doesn't mean you couldn't improve. use utility skills, almost any utility skill is better than nothing. heroes are amazing at using conditional/utility skills usually.
Shantei
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Originally Posted by Shaz
It's PvE. A mending/HH W/Mo can beat the game, does it make that build good? no. It just work because it's PvE, but it certainly can improve by a lot.
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As I said before, that build was off the top of my head.
Squishy ftw
I don't see how a bar with 6 skills is better than one with 8 skills. Because you can just disable some skills and manage them yourself?
Tearz1993
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Originally Posted by Shantei
Channeling
LoD Healing Whisper Healing Ribbon Cure Hex Healing Breeze |
Orison Of Healing / Patient Spirit
Shantei
You see. Your'e ALL missing the point of efficieny and how heroes will utilise any skill, no matter what, which can cause energy drops for no decent reason.
Shaz
Oh really? i would have never guessed you PvP 
. But ok I'm done, keep doing what you're doing, I'd advise other to not do that though. Take Xx Sorin xX advice instead, it's a good one.
. But ok I'm done, keep doing what you're doing, I'd advise other to not do that though. Take Xx Sorin xX advice instead, it's a good one.
Shantei
Stillll missing the point Shaz..
I'd love to see you PvP btw. Would be interesting.
I'd love to see you PvP btw. Would be interesting.
Batou of Nine
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Originally Posted by Shantei
Thank you!
It does work great I find! Just because you have 8 slots doesn't mean you need 8 slots. Although I'm sure some people find 'I wish I had more skill slots' and if so, you really should rethink your build ^^ Also why henchman don't have all skills slots filled, to make them as efficient and general as possible maybe... |
Often this would also result in skill spamming of the higher energy skills which caused them to drain themselves of energy and thus becoming useless within the first 5 seconds of a fight. This was why it used to be common to limit the Hero skill bars to only a few skills...
That was then. Now, after the AI has been updated, tweaked and improved there is simply no need to limit the bar to only a few skills. They do indeed lack the ability of discernment and will never match a human's (or at least most people's, lol) intelligence level in terms of skill usage.
However, as their AI stands now. They are much better at managing skills, taking advantage of the full bar and often at an efficient pace. Giving heroes a simple 1 or 2 energy mangement skills in their bar is all that you need. Enemy target requiring, interrupt requiring, etc... all types of e-management are used well by heros.
If i ever find a situation where certain enemy curses, interrupts, defenses are causing a hero to use skills wrong or wastefully, i simply disable the skill till we move on.
Why limit their usefulness?
Simply no reason not to load up a Heroes bar to max. Period.
my 2 cents, cheers
Shantei
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Originally Posted by Batou of Nine
Using only a few skill slots on hero bars used to be very common when they were first introduced. For a while after Heroes were introduced, everyone noticed their AI was not very intuitive. With full bars they would only use the same 3-4 skills over and over, hardly ever, if ever using the others.
Often this would also result in skill spamming of the higher energy skills which caused them to drain themselves of energy and thus becoming useless within the first 5 seconds of a fight. This was why it used to be common to limit the Hero skill bars to only a few skills... That was then. Now, after the AI has been updated, tweaked and improved there is simply no need to limit the bar to only a few skills. They do indeed lack the ability of discernment and will never match a human's (or at least most people's, lol) intelligence level in terms of skill usage. However, as their AI stands now. They are much better at managing skills, taking advantage of the full bar and often at an efficient pace. Giving heroes a simple 1 or 2 energy mangement skills in their bar is all that you need. Enemy target requiring, interrupt requiring, etc... all types of e-management are used well by heros. If i ever find a situation where certain enemy curses, interrupts, defenses are causing a hero to use skills wrong or wastefully, i simply disable the skill till we move on. Why limit their usefulness? Simply no reason not to load up a Heroes bar to max. Period. my 2 cents, cheers |
But yes, e-management is always important.
aB-
I usually just fill every open slot with some quick 1/4 second cast time interrupts that give energy. Skills such as power drain or leech signet. Heros can interrupt very well.
Shaz
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Originally Posted by Shantei
Stillll missing the point Shaz..
I'd love to see you PvP btw. Would be interesting. |
I'm certainly no top GvG player, but I think I know enough about PvP or just GW in general, to know that that's a bad build that you posted, off of the top of the head or not.
Stormlord Alex
You don't need to be a pro PvPer to know that Ribbon and Breeze are terribaed skills.
As for a hero monk?
[[email protected]]
[dwaynas [email protected]]
[cure [email protected]]
[dismiss [email protected]] (disabled)
[protective [email protected]] (disabled)
[[email protected]] (disabled)
[shield of [email protected]]
... optional
12+1+1 Healing
9+1 prot
9+1 divine
... or something like that is what I stick on heroes. They're ok with SoA, bad with conditional removal, and bad with big prots - I cast them myself to stop shit blowing up in HM. The other stuff is simply the most efficient red-bars-go-up crap in the game, better than Ribbon and Breeze (lol)
As for a hero monk?
[[email protected]]
[dwaynas [email protected]]
[cure [email protected]]
[dismiss [email protected]] (disabled)
[protective [email protected]] (disabled)
[[email protected]] (disabled)
[shield of [email protected]]
... optional
12+1+1 Healing
9+1 prot
9+1 divine
... or something like that is what I stick on heroes. They're ok with SoA, bad with conditional removal, and bad with big prots - I cast them myself to stop shit blowing up in HM. The other stuff is simply the most efficient red-bars-go-up crap in the game, better than Ribbon and Breeze (lol)
Batou of Nine
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Originally Posted by Shantei
But you're still missing the point of how heroes utilise their skills according to their own AI. Which might no necessarily be your own perspective of the build. Therefore filling the skills slots which you might think be good may actually be quite inefficient.
But yes, e-management is always important. |
How am i missing the point? I even explained to you the origins of using less then 8 skills on a Hero. Then explained why it is no longer necessary. Efficiency according to having less skills is not efficient.
First of all, any Hero bar without at least a small form of e-managment will drain them to begin with, 6 or 8 skills. Having 1-2 second recharge, spammable skills ofc would drain them no matter how big their bar is. Their intelligence will treat both bars the exact same way.
Due to that, adding in 1 or 2 e-management skills will not only allow them to last longer, but also help them recover more quickly from inevitable energy drains/interrupts/etc.
Less skills =/= efficiency.
Skill & build synergy = efficiency.
cheers.
EDIT:
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Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
... or something like that is what I stick on heroes. They're ok with SoA, bad with conditional removal, and bad with big prots - I cast them myself to stop shit blowing up in HM. The other stuff is simply the most efficient red-bars-go-up crap in the game, better than Ribbon and Breeze (lol)
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Deleet
Fill them up and disable the skills they can't use properly. Then set hotkeys for those skills (healing seed, heal party...) and use the manually.
Rhamia Darigaz
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Originally Posted by Shantei
The only reason I'd see the point of disabling a skill is to use it for a specific purpose along the way, otherwise it'd be a pain to keep doing that.
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edit: it seems like you think disabling a hero's skill is a complicated and continuous process. try shift-clicking on a skill on ur heros bar. it stays disabled till you shift click it again and the hero will only use it when u order it to
zwei2stein
Shaz, is your troll detector broken?
kobey
[healing breeze][light of deliverance][gole]
This build is guuud. Do not add anymore skills, if you do, it won't work the way it is supposed to.
I get your point shantei. See the build I made after listening to ya.
The hero monk NEVER runs into energy problem, so it is guuud.
This build is guuud. Do not add anymore skills, if you do, it won't work the way it is supposed to.
I get your point shantei. See the build I made after listening to ya.
The hero monk NEVER runs into energy problem, so it is guuud.
MagmaRed
Knowing how to make a hero build allows you to use 8 skills, and have the ability to cover more situations. Sure, there are builds that work well with 4-5 skills. However, giving a hero some utility skills to fill in the empty slots allows for versatililty. Disable them if it is a skill they can/will use when you don't want them to, or choose better skills.
I'd rather not gimp my heroes because they like to spam.... I'd rather work with that knowledge and give them skills they can/will use appropriately.
I'd rather not gimp my heroes because they like to spam.... I'd rather work with that knowledge and give them skills they can/will use appropriately.
Batou of Nine
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Originally Posted by kobey
[healing breeze][light of deliverance][gole]
This build is guuud. Do not add anymore skills, if you do, it won't work the way it is supposed to. I get your point shantei. See the build I made after listening to ya. The hero monk NEVER runs into energy problem, so it is guuud. |
A11Eur0
that "example build" fails because of healing ribbon. I gave my monk heroes healing ribbon when I unlocked it...immediately I ran into e-management problems. Yes, they spam it. And it's a 10e skill.
Here's my monk hero build:
HB
ethereal
dwayna's kiss
cure hex
dismiss condition
aegis
prot spirit
res chant
IF I run two monks, I change that to the standard HB build with heal party instead of aegis, and GoLE instead of prot spirit, then bring a power drain/leech sig prot monk. I never run out of energy on my monks. If I get into some nastiness with the single monk build, with mass conditions and hexes, I disable the hex/condition removal and focus on straight heals.
Here's my monk hero build:
HB
ethereal
dwayna's kiss
cure hex
dismiss condition
aegis
prot spirit
res chant
IF I run two monks, I change that to the standard HB build with heal party instead of aegis, and GoLE instead of prot spirit, then bring a power drain/leech sig prot monk. I never run out of energy on my monks. If I get into some nastiness with the single monk build, with mass conditions and hexes, I disable the hex/condition removal and focus on straight heals.
The Red Messenger
its true, heroes with less options will spam the skills you want more often
heroes own with interrupts, even in HM. just give em the skills you want, and fill the rest with interrupts.
[fire attunement][searing flames][glowing gaze][rodgorts invocation][glyph of lesser energy][leech signet][power drain][res sig]
heroes own with interrupts, even in HM. just give em the skills you want, and fill the rest with interrupts.
[fire attunement][searing flames][glowing gaze][rodgorts invocation][glyph of lesser energy][leech signet][power drain][res sig]
Shaz
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Shaz, is your troll detector broken?
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, though he does seem like a genuine bad player. I don't know anymore, though I wouldn't be suprise if someone is this bad really.