A Reply to those who Desire PvE Challenge (skill > time) - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Kanyatta

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Guildless, pm me

R/Mo

16 Jun 2008 at 16:12 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

This Thread sucks, the idea sucks and fails and you fail with this Thread, sucks to be you, to talk "in your language"

Wow, and I really enjoy how your reason was "You can just only play with idiots, not use items, and don't activate rez shrines."

Ever think maybe some of us don't want to go that far out of our way to play a decent game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

When I read such arrogant bullshit, I could innerly explode

Strangely enough, I felt the same way after reading your post.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

16 Jun 2008 at 16:21 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So if you remove the desire of this group to take part in this mode - there is no need to make the mode accessible for these guys.
And that just leaves us the question - will the people who this mode would be designed for do it for the rewards or the added challenge?
And considering the title of the thread - I'd say that being challenged is the priority here.

We agree partly. I don't want to play for more money/loot/chest drops. But a title for completing all the chapters would be in good order. It would be a gentle nod from ANet's direction of the times before all these PvE skills and crap.

But that aside, there's no reason to have to "cater" to "these guys" in the first place. We know that ANet is providing for them, we just want to know why. Removing the "incentives" isn't the only solution. You could just not listen to them.

the_jos

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hard Mode Legion [HML]

N/

16 Jun 2008 at 16:22 - 43

While I like the idea I don't like this to be linked to a title.
A title means a lot of players will do it once and never again.
Or use the new mode for farming, as surgested by others.
So also not too much extra reward.

If A-net should make such available it should be for people who want to do it for fun, challenge and perhaps a little better loot.
Put a timer in that starts on first aggro and stops at finish, allowing teams to post their results and brag about it.
And try to improve their previous times.

That should be enough challenge for the people who desire it while not attracting players who just want to join for loot or titles.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

16 Jun 2008 at 16:27 - 44

Or you could make it a title and not have it count towards anything.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

16 Jun 2008 at 16:37 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

This Thread sucks, the idea sucks and fails and you fail with this Thread

Fabulous, Phoenix, now apply that statement to every post and every thread you've ever made.

For all of you saying that this would be another farmable Hard Mode, there are ways to prevent that. Full parties, no cons/pve things, etc. The players, their skillbars, and their equipment would be all that's permitted.
And LOL at saying that Paragons and Dervishes would be neglected.
This mode would be a truly Hard Mode to play in, and rest assured invariably fewer players would be able to tote around a title for it.

ccruzp

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2008

W/

16 Jun 2008 at 16:52 - 46

normal mode, hardmode, farm mode w/a 4-6 min limit till a djjin (a purple one no less) pops on your ass ¬¬
Unless they make one more rank for koabd (i vote "The Legend of Ron Bugandy, Ops.." or the legend of <charname>) i doubt anyone would do this for the chalange, wich would consist of controling your pull and not pulling anything big till you w8 for the purple djjin spawn (by far the worst idea imo, you wanted to add this to stop gimmicks abusing bonders?)
Your chalange mode can easly be reenacted by HM w/o pve skills and conset, a 2 minutes stop every 5 minutes and 8 ppl willing to waste their time, but if that floats your boat and you want to brag afterwards, theres always the screenshot forum.

Like someone said, it gw adding Rewards for a another dificulty level will just bring new gimmicks for farming.

A true Chalange imo would be update the ai so for example, Aflicted rangers dont use Throw dirty on my healer and Broad Head arorw in me (war), or cast all their shutdown hexes on minions.

To the above poster, abt the timer thing, /age works almost exactly like that.

Overall , not signed for farming purposes, if they make it non-rewarding i could care less.

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

16 Jun 2008 at 19:05 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

But for making a 3rd difficulty level the rewards aren't worth it imho. It's just 1 title... although a Grandmaster Challenger would be more meaningfull than a GWaMM.

Personally, I think a title showing that I can do everything in Hard Mode without Ursan is something I can rub proudly in the faces of everyone in Olafstead.

I'd certainly agree with your last statement.

the_jos

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hard Mode Legion [HML]

N/

16 Jun 2008 at 19:07 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccruzp

To the above poster, abt the timer thing, /age works almost exactly like that.

Yes, that works great on explorable areas.
But a lot of missions end the moment you meet the requirement for it to finish. Kind of hard to do /age when you are in a cutscene

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Personally, I think a title showing that I can do everything in Hard Mode without Ursan is something I can rub proudly in the faces of everyone in Olafstead.

Well, that would be an interesting title.
Next to find a player with GWAMM who has not maxed the EotN grind...

Richardt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

http://friendsofloa.com/forum

Leader-Legion of Avalon [LoA] Alliance-Recruiting PM for info!

16 Jun 2008 at 21:00 - 49

I like this idea, except for the no H/H factor.

So if it's a full party with H/H allowed, then /signed.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

16 Jun 2008 at 22:16 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Challenge Elements:
-Hard Mode monsters and effects, all monsters use PvE skills
-All Players use PvP versions of skills, when applicable
-No PvE-only skills permitted
-No Title bonus effects (Lightbringer, Asuran... etc)
-No consumables permitted (con sets, candy canes, scrolls... etc)
-No Heroes or Henchmen permitted
-Instant mission failure if your party has an average Death Penalty of -30% or more

Reward Elements:
-Exp boost of +75%
-Triple Gold item drops
-Triple Rare Material drops
-All Locked Chests drop Gold items
-Double mission completion rewards

Rewards are good, but I think the No heroes is a bit much, along with the no PvE-only skills AND PvP versions. Gotta go a little less heavy on the "Challenge Elements." I would say no Elite PvE-only skills (or no EN PvE-skills) along with the PvP versions, and allowing Heroes, and no consets (candy canes and other event cons are usable). Another idea is to limit the PvE-skills amount to just 1 per bar, which would then remove the SY!+TNTF combo.

My revision of the Challenge Elements
-Hard Mode monsters and effects, all monsters use full skill bars, some include PvE-only skills
-All Players use PvP versions of skills, when applicable
-No Elite PvE-only skills permitted
-No Title bonus effects (Lightbringer, Asuran... etc)
-No non-event consumables permitted (con sets, scrolls, elixirs, etc)
-No Henchmen permitted
-Instant mission failure if your party has an average Death Penalty of -45% or more

Quote:

Title Track

You will gain one point towards the Challenger Title when you complete a mission or dungeon in Guild Wars in Challenger Mode. Three points for Elite areas. This includes:

Prophecies Missions (25)
Factions Missions (13)
Nightfall Missions (20)
All GWEN Dungeons (18)
UW, FoW, Urgoz, The Deep, and DoA (worth 3 points each)

The title track is as follows:

20 points - Novice Challenger
30 points - Moderate Challenger
50 points - Serious Challenger
65 points - Master Challenger
81 points - Grandmaster Challenger

Don't forget Tombs for the Elite Missions, and Sorrow's Furnace. As for the title track, I suggest going 10-25-40-65-100, so that the end points are more equal, and cannot show the title until rank 2.

I like the overall idea, and I will /sign for it, but gotta go a little less harsh.

Nessar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2008

West Siiiiiiiiiiiiiide

Gwen Has A Thing For [Pyre]

16 Jun 2008 at 22:22 - 51

Neat idea, It'll give me something to do, also like the rewards

/signed

Clarissa F

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Fighters of the Shiverpeaks

Me/Mo

16 Jun 2008 at 22:39 - 52

/signed

it would be the only title I would ever want to max. Right up until A-fail nerfed it.

januscht

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

Order Of The Abominations [OoTA]

N/

16 Jun 2008 at 22:47 - 53

oh yes neat idea lets get a "HM2" option, then ppl will start complaining about the dificulty, so anet will implement something like UBER-MEGA-URSA-BLESING because the noob players wont be able to farm/complete it. then you can sugest "HM3" ;P

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

16 Jun 2008 at 23:10 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by januscht

oh yes neat idea lets get a "HM2" option, then ppl will start complaining about the dificulty, so anet will implement something like UBER-MEGA-URSA-BLESING because the noob players wont be able to farm/complete it. then you can sugest "HM3" ;P

Ursan Blessing is our fault. Junundu, while forced on us, did not get a ton of negative feedback which leads to the creation of a slightly more powerful portable version in the form of Ursan Blessing. We can complain about Ursan Blessing now, but it doesn't matter, we should have complained about the Junundu. They were the first to give you a preset build and say, Go out there and fight.

On the topic at hand..I think that you could leave it mostly as is, but make the instant failure at -45% DP as said previously. However, since it IS so challenging there should be a title for those who have soloed/duoed/trioed/quadroed it. Then there should be a default title for those who have done it with a full party.

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

16 Jun 2008 at 23:26 - 55

It looks like a lazy attempt to make PvE challenging. Sure, it would be harder, but honestly I probably wouldn't find it fun at all.

I'd rather go up against balanced groups with viable 8skill bars with a res also. Slaver's Exile is a little like that, but mobs there are still pretty dumb.

I also don't get the no H/H thing.

/notsigned

doudou_steve

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2007

Canada

Guildless QQ

W/

17 Jun 2008 at 00:54 - 56

/signed

This should have been "the" Hard mode

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

17 Jun 2008 at 03:04 - 57

Round of replys:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

I really like this actually. PvE has never been a challenge, and this might actually bring some, especially finding groups (the "no H/H" part).

The only thing I don't like is "Locked Chests Always Drop Golds." Because it would just make outposts "LF CHEST RUN - CHALLENGER MODE". Unless some update gets put in where the general location has to be cleared of enemies to use chests or something, this will get abused.

Other than the 1 stipulation, this is a wholehearted /sign.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

So you wish to create yet another mode of gameplay that is open to only those with 7 live people that are availible to play right when your ready to play and have all the time you have to spend on that particular mission/dungeon/elite zone/ect...and want to do the exact same thing as you....

/not signed...this just sounds like another attempt at creating a better farming mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

3 times gold drops
3 times rare material drops
All chests net gold items

YUP, sounds like a farming thread to me.

I've added another line to the idea:
-Also, 2 Keeper of Challenges will pop up the first time a Locked Chest is opened.

I'm familiar with all of the most popular farming and running builds, and I'm confident that there is no solo build or running team that could ever stand up to a Keeper of Challenges, let alone a team of two, with no PvE-only buffs or boons to the party. It could easily beat 55, 600, 330 Rt, VwK War, Terra Tank and even solo perma-SF (which is not really possible with PvP skill versions).

TanknSpank usually uses an Obs tank or some other skill that prevents spell use, and the Keeper of Challenges was designed with this in mind. The element of randomness will pretty much screw over any team that depends on this tactic and isn't pay attention and working as a team. They'd eat up minions too, which is a common PvE tactic, and would be better than Verata's Aura, because the team Necro could just carry a copy for themselves to steal them back. Let the challengers deserve their reward. Farming is far from the intent of this mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Why not make "Instant failure if one of your party members dies"? Come on 30% on hard mode without consets or clovers would be not that hard to get.

But overall /signed for the rest. Btw, 3 points per mission completion? Wouldn't people start farming Doppelganger and that's all? ;p

Compare to a HM dungeon, where you can get party-wide near -60% DP, kill a few more monsters, and get that back up. It takes some large amount of mismanagement to fail due to DP in HM dungeons because of the -60% DP limit. This was simply to diminish the indirect benefits of that limit.

Also, you only get points after beating a mission for the first time, and 3 for Elite areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I like everything about that.

Except no heroes. That's a big no-no for me.

/notsigned.

As a lesser important thing that I believe you missed, to prevent farming in this mode, is to require parties in Challenge Mode to be full.

Full parties doesn't really solve the problem, because you could join, and then 7 other people quit. Removing H/H was simply to force all players involved to be at their best, as well-flagged heroes are good at picking up the pieces in a team, given an adaquate energy supply and an efficient build. Maybe too good? PvP limits 2 Heroes per party in HA, and I'd be happy to concede 2 Hero spots. Part of the challenge is that the achievement was done mostly by human will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doudou_steve

/signed

This should have been "the" Hard mode

Perhaps, but the current Hard Mode can't be changed to this, as there'd be more of an uproar from a larger part of the community than from the current, relatively small, number of folks who want more challenge and proof of their ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcelmo

yes the game was better in good old days when you could maintain 30+ minions with your imba MM :P
imma trollin

Hehe

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

17 Jun 2008 at 04:28 - 58

I'll sign this under these conditions only.

1. No way to earn off DP it is permanant while in this mode.
2. No bonuses from shrines either possible.
3. Bosses and enemies also do 3x damage than normal. While also being able to use full 8 skill bar set.

BTW Skye If you think that these couldnt be farmable

I got a surprise Ive already found the weakness to your keepers

and yes these zones would still be easily farmed.

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

17 Jun 2008 at 04:37 - 59

Shrine bonuses off is a given, but 3x damage just isn't fun to play against and is kind of unnecessary.

If you've found the weakness, I'd love to hear it.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

17 Jun 2008 at 05:30 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Ursan Blessing is our fault. Junundu, while forced on us, did not get a ton of negative feedback which leads to the creation of a slightly more powerful portable version in the form of Ursan Blessing. We can complain about Ursan Blessing now, but it doesn't matter, we should have complained about the Junundu. They were the first to give you a preset build and say, Go out there and fight.

The difference between Ursan Blessing and the Junundu, is that the Junundu were location specific. If the Blessings were made to be location specific (as it has been suggested many a times) then there would be little, if any, complaining. It would be a second Junundu (or third as the Siege Devourer is second

).

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

I'll sign this under these conditions only.

1. No way to earn off DP it is permanant while in this mode.
2. No bonuses from shrines either possible.
3. Bosses and enemies also do 3x damage than normal. While also being able to use full 8 skill bar set.

If these suggestions were to be added, then you switched the imba from the player to the game. That is not fun.

Imba on either side=not fun
A challenge=fun
Hard=A Challenge
Impossible=Imba
Your suggestions=Imba
Your suggestions=Not Fun
Harder than Hard Mode=Hard

Harder than Hard Mode=Fun

What else can I add to that to make it so that an imba game is not fun but a challenging game is?

My previous suggestions still stand. And you still have yet to add Tombs to the Elite Missions for the title

. It is still an elite mission right? They didn't put it back to a HoH arena or anything right? Didn't think so.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

17 Jun 2008 at 09:13 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Shrine bonuses off is a given, but 3x damage just isn't fun to play against and is kind of unnecessary.

If you've found the weakness, I'd love to hear it.

Giving it away would spoil the fun of that now wouldnt it.

But Ill give you a hint. Its not in the skills used by the players or the keepers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

The difference between Ursan Blessing and the Junundu, is that the Junundu were location specific. If the Blessings were made to be location specific (as it has been suggested many a times) then there would be little, if any, complaining. It would be a second Junundu (or third as the Siege Devourer is second

).

If these suggestions were to be added, then you switched the imba from the player to the game. That is not fun.

Imba on either side=not fun
A challenge=fun
Hard=A Challenge
Impossible=Imba
Your suggestions=Imba
Your suggestions=Not Fun
Harder than Hard Mode=Hard

Harder than Hard Mode=Fun

What else can I add to that to make it so that an imba game is not fun but a challenging game is?

My previous suggestions still stand. And you still have yet to add Tombs to the Elite Missions for the title

. It is still an elite mission right? They didn't put it back to a HoH arena or anything right? Didn't think so.

Come on now. Get serious. Cant have it half and half. Allow all or none, no half assing it here pal.

Seriously though you cant allow anything not just the little things here. If your gonna go for the extra rewards as suggested then yes those things listed need to be added.

4. Reimplementation of refund points for challange mode

Im sure Ill come up with more.

isamu kurosawa

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

United Kingdom

Me/

17 Jun 2008 at 09:47 - 62

restricting heroes & hench is a bad idea as most of the people interested only play with h/h these days.

I'd have to say its a terrible idea thats trying to put a bandaid over a problem. This is what hard mode was supposed to be till bad players complained they couldn't do it.
If this was implemented in a few months anet would end up changing it so bad players can do it anyway.

What people realy mean when they want skill>time is for the foes to have equal or closer stats to your own team while having AI. Increasing their hp, armour, attack speed, movement speed and damage dealt is not challenge. It simply forces you to exploit poor AI.

The problem to getting a perfect skill>time setup would be having AI thats a challence yet still not as hard to defeat as real players. If it was as good as a real team then every mob encounter would take 15+minutes to defeat.
PvE maps would also have to be built around the concept as well.

I think a nice balance for gw2 would be to have a bunch of mobs in a zone like we do now but place better AI challenging foes at stopgap points in front of various portals (have the doors closed till the boss in the mob is defeated too). and as quest mobs.
That way you could play through the game at normal pace then you encounter the challenging part that will take slightly longer.

A solution such as this that does not involve simply beefing up foes would be a godsend in gw2 and would realy make the game stand out from all others.

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

17 Jun 2008 at 17:08 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Giving it away would spoil the fun of that now wouldnt it.

But Ill give you a hint. Its not in the skills used by the players or the keepers.

Ah, gotcha. Well, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to have no Locked Chests spawn in the Gate of Desolation Mission. The benefits of Challenger Mode are intended for Missions and Dungeons, not explorable areas.

Read my third downside point in the OP about why it isn't harder than it already is. There has to be a limit. As-is, this task will be very frustrating for many people, and making it harder by throwing in things like scalar extra damage will just force people rely on "cheap" tactics like a crutch.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

17 Jun 2008 at 22:43 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Come on now. Get serious. Cant have it half and half. Allow all or none, no half assing it here pal.

Seriously though you cant allow anything not just the little things here. If your gonna go for the extra rewards as suggested then yes those things listed need to be added.

The reason you can't go all the way is because if its too hard, then no one will want to play except the suicidals and crazy people who think ANet will come up with a "Death Title Track."

Make it hard, but not too hard.

@isamu kurosawa

In terms of enemies, there are three ways to make a good game experience through the enemies.

1) Mobs upon Mobs that are (somewhat) easy to defeat, especially alone, but in mass numbers are hard (like in DOOM and DOOM2). This however does not work with how GW (and probably GW2) is set up, the mobs idea cannot work with an "auto-target" type of system like GW has. It has to be a "press x to attack once" not "press x to attack until another command or enemy dead." Sadly, this seems to be the direction ANet is trying to take things, at least with how strong the player is.

2) Small groups, or singular opponents, that are very tough, mainly through AI. This was attempted at times (Imperial Sanctum, Doppleganger, etc), but this idea doesn't work because its a team game, the idea with the Doppleganger works, because only one person can be in the team, but the others, not so much. This is the best way to go with enemy set up and AI, imo, but it isn't suited for team games like GW.

3) Small to Medium groups that are balanced themselves. This is basically what you suggested, and is probably the best course to go with this game. However, the problem is that have many groups like this would make the game take too much time, which is not what people want, for various reasons.

What I suggest for GW2, is to have a mixture of all three, have areas where its just mobs upon mobs of enemies that are easy/somewhat easy to defeat, and a few solo missions where you fight a powerful enemy, and a few team missions where you have to fight a VERY powerful enemy (would be sweet to see 12 or so people fighting Primordus or the other Ancient Dragons) but most of the game have enemies with balanced teams, but a little poorer states in order to make the time issue go away.

Fun fact: Spell check suggests Primroses for Primordus... What's a Primrose?

RotteN

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

17 Jun 2008 at 22:53 - 65

Here's an idea : if you realy want a challenge, try playing against humans instead of AI. Cause no damage multiplier, environmental effect or skill restriction will ever create something more challenging than taking on human intelligence.

And you know what's even better ? It already has TONS of titles, and it's all already in the game ! Can it get any better ?

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

17 Jun 2008 at 23:09 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

And you know what's even better ? It already has TONS of titles, and it's all already in the game ! Can it get any better ?

It could be balanced and thriving.

The reason PvE is lackluster is not because the numbers aren't big or small enough. The AI is dumb and has subpar builds, and there's not much endgame content for players of varying skill levels. You need to fix those problems before you touch numbers at all.

isamu kurosawa

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

United Kingdom

Me/

17 Jun 2008 at 23:54 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

The reason you can't go all the way is because if its too hard, then no one will want to play except the suicidals and crazy people who think ANet will come up with a "Death Title Track."

Make it hard, but not too hard.

@isamu kurosawa

In terms of enemies, there are three ways to make a good game experience through the enemies.

1) Mobs upon Mobs that are (somewhat) easy to defeat, especially alone, but in mass numbers are hard (like in DOOM and DOOM2). This however does not work with how GW (and probably GW2) is set up, the mobs idea cannot work with an "auto-target" type of system like GW has. It has to be a "press x to attack once" not "press x to attack until another command or enemy dead." Sadly, this seems to be the direction ANet is trying to take things, at least with how strong the player is.

2) Small groups, or singular opponents, that are very tough, mainly through AI. This was attempted at times (Imperial Sanctum, Doppleganger, etc), but this idea doesn't work because its a team game, the idea with the Doppleganger works, because only one person can be in the team, but the others, not so much. This is the best way to go with enemy set up and AI, imo, but it isn't suited for team games like GW.

3) Small to Medium groups that are balanced themselves. This is basically what you suggested, and is probably the best course to go with this game. However, the problem is that have many groups like this would make the game take too much time, which is not what people want, for various reasons.

What I suggest for GW2, is to have a mixture of all three, have areas where its just mobs upon mobs of enemies that are easy/somewhat easy to defeat, and a few solo missions where you fight a powerful enemy, and a few team missions where you have to fight a VERY powerful enemy (would be sweet to see 12 or so people fighting Primordus or the other Ancient Dragons) but most of the game have enemies with balanced teams, but a little poorer states in order to make the time issue go away.

Fun fact: Spell check suggests Primroses for Primordus... What's a Primrose?

Thats why i suggested keeping standard foes like we have now in zones and only the advanced AI with decent build mobs at critical points in missions, as quest objectives or entrances to certain areas.
Stops zones being empty or taking to long to clear with an easier transition from the gw1 system.
Something liek dungeons in eotn attempted but with the abillity to start from scrach and do things right. As it stands now, all "difficult" dungeon mobs/bosses are killed by explaiting bad AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The reason PvE is lackluster is not because the numbers aren't big or small enough. The AI is dumb and has subpar builds, and there's not much endgame content for players of varying skill levels. You need to fix those problems before you touch numbers at all.

Its a shame anet recently makes decisions to make al difficulty modes accessable to anyone.

Torabo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2007

A/

18 Jun 2008 at 01:23 - 68

..... And how does making things harder => skill > time?

It'll take much longer to finish areas... meaning only people with LOTS OF TIME can do this.

Go get a team and play PVP instead.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

18 Jun 2008 at 04:28 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Thats why i suggested keeping standard foes like we have now in zones and only the advanced AI with decent build mobs at critical points in missions, as quest objectives or entrances to certain areas.
Stops zones being empty or taking to long to clear with an easier transition from the gw1 system.
Something liek dungeons in eotn attempted but with the abillity to start from scrach and do things right. As it stands now, all "difficult" dungeon mobs/bosses are killed by explaiting bad AI.

And I was agreeing with you, was I not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torabo

..... And how does making things harder => skill > time?

It'll take much longer to finish areas... meaning only people with LOTS OF TIME can do this.

Go get a team and play PVP instead.

Because with harder things, it will take "skill" to beat them. For those without skills, it will take a long time to beat it, but thats the idea behind skill>time. And I'll just ignore that PvP statement, some people (like myself) don't like the attitude from other people. "Haha noob" gets very annoying very fast, at least AI don't insult you (often).

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

18 Jun 2008 at 04:47 - 70

Heres the thing with 3x EXP you do really realize how fast you would lose DP and unnecessary it would be to have a gap on it. That is why I suggested the no means of losing it. Get 15% Dp and work it off after 1 mob. Not really a challange then.

For the bosses having 3x damage. You should know that even if one was to hit you with it it can be made to be near nothing.

So the bigger the numbers really wouldnt be that big of a deal to begin with.

Skye
I know it would get frustrating for some players but look how DoA was actually thought to be at first. It would be the same thing basically.

And I figured thats what you were talking about missions and dungeons,

I think you missed the hint, so heres another.

How did people get max number of stuff from the unlocked chests in Sorrows Furnace?

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

18 Jun 2008 at 08:20 - 71

I'm against 3x damage because players shouldn't have to rely on Protective Spirit and only Protective Spirit to simply survive. To keep the majority of prot spells viable, a single packet of damage should really never go above ~140 without some special considerations of the source and target (ie, Lighting Orb to a Frenzy Healsig).

And now, some quick math about XP and DP:

Monsters +11 levels higher than you give, 280 XP to the party, or 490 XP with the +75% bonus. Split between 8 players, that's roughly 60 XP per player, and it takes 75XP to repair -1% DP. You'd have to kill 20 enemies to get back your -15% DP, which seems fair enough to me considering the new limit for failure. On average, monsters are +6-8 levels above, raising the required kills to about 28.

I think I'm clueless regarding your hints if it's not Jujundu farming. Does it have something to do with the crushers in Sorrow's Furnace?

Sometime I think I'm the only person who like PvP and PvE both equally and a whole lot. Tons of PvE folks don't really like PvP and won't facilitate a move. I won't hold it against them :P.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

18 Jun 2008 at 17:50 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I'm against 3x damage because players shouldn't have to rely on Protective Spirit and only Protective Spirit to simply survive. To keep the majority of prot spells viable, a single packet of damage should really never go above ~140 without some special considerations of the source and target (ie, Lighting Orb to a Frenzy Healsig).

And now, some quick math about XP and DP:

Monsters +11 levels higher than you give, 280 XP to the party, or 490 XP with the +75% bonus. Split between 8 players, that's roughly 60 XP per player, and it takes 75XP to repair -1% DP. You'd have to kill 20 enemies to get back your -15% DP, which seems fair enough to me considering the new limit for failure. On average, monsters are +6-8 levels above, raising the required kills to about 28.

I think I'm clueless regarding your hints if it's not Jujundu farming. Does it have something to do with the crushers in Sorrow's Furnace?

Sometime I think I'm the only person who like PvP and PvE both equally and a whole lot. Tons of PvE folks don't really like PvP and won't facilitate a move. I won't hold it against them :P.

No it's ok. I used to like both before Anet went carebear for PvP and made it monkey see monkey do.

What they used to was use the H/H to clear the place out for the quest send the H/H outa range. Then they would get all the drops from the chests.
Even with lootscaling in place they get 2x the drops. So all they would have to do leave everyone else at the start( 7 of the chances for your spawning keepers there

) while one is off soloing as long as the others where outa the way.

Had a few more thoughts at work on this for you skye.

OK its gonna be a rework of your idea

Back to the point of DP-
However you can loss DP by performing side quests in these missions.

The missions will be different from there normal way. That way its not repeating the same things over and over.

The way they will work is (your Keepers of the Challanges) will be allies instead of enemies. You enter the Challange mode of each mission. When you enter you talk to the Keeper of that mission. He then gives you certain mini-quests to do. Upon completion of each mini-quest you lose 15% DP.

PvE skills or consumables will be usable due to the effect of THE MISTS ( Along the lines of the GW lore) Explains why you cant use them

Henchies are not useable but Heros will be,(compromise for some)

The mini-quest will have you doing things as preventing creatures that would have overran your party in the normal missions if you wouldnt have stopped them doing the MIST Challanges. Such as Azazel suggestion of mobs stuff.

I think you get the general idea.

Skye on the 3x damage. Players wouldnt have to soley rely on prot spirit, there is many other ways to lessen,mitigate or even ignore the amount of damage. But sometimes it takes that slap to the face to get some players to realize it.

Posts Merged by Celestial Beaver: Please use the button in future.

RotteN

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

19 Jun 2008 at 10:31 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Skye on the 3x damage. Players wouldnt have to soley rely on prot spirit, there is many other ways to lessen,mitigate or even ignore the amount of damage. But sometimes it takes that slap to the face to get some players to realize it.

Please do list all the other ways to "lessen, mitigate or ignore" 400 damage spells from "casters on steroids".

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

19 Jun 2008 at 15:59 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

Please do list all the other ways to "lessen, mitigate or ignore" 400 damage spells from "casters on steroids".

Heres a couple right off the bat. Reversal of fortune, prot bond, spell sheild, as I said thats just a couple. Id list more but since wikki is acting up on me i cant. SOme are even fun to use such as reversal on high hitting bosses like that.

Kanyatta

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Guildless, pm me

R/Mo

19 Jun 2008 at 16:05 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Imba on either side=not fun
A challenge=fun
Hard=A Challenge
Impossible=Imba
Your suggestions=Imba
Your suggestions=Not Fun
Harder than Hard Mode=Hard

Harder than Hard Mode=Fun

Imba on the side of the monsters = Hard
*as previously stated* Hard= A challenge
Harder than HM = Fun
*but you say* Imba = Not Fun
*so, in theory* Fun = Not fun

OH SHI-

RotteN

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

19 Jun 2008 at 16:12 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Heres a couple right off the bat. Reversal of fortune, prot bond, spell sheild, as I said thats just a couple. Id list more but since wikki is acting up on me i cant. SOme are even fun to use such as reversal on high hitting bosses like that.

[[Reversal of [email protected]] : good one, too bad it has a maximum that is balanced around normal gameplay. So when facing 400 damage spells, you'd still be hit for 320ish damage. Might make a small difference with one boss hitting that hard, but an entire mob ? Dead in seconds.

[[Spirit [email protected]] : This will mean close to nothing when not paired with protective spirit if you face such large amounts of damage

[[spell [email protected]] : this skill is crap, i would never even consider using it.

[[protective [email protected]] : yeah, it's the bad version of protective spirit. Surely you could use it to claim protective spirit isn't needed, taking you're seriously screwing yourself over by using protective bond instead.

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

19 Jun 2008 at 16:42 - 77

Sorrow's Furnace chests aren't Locked Chests, and wouldn't contain only golds.

Reliance on Protective Spirit simply to survive isn't fun.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

19 Jun 2008 at 17:14 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

snip

And then you've got some AoE's. Yes, sorted by splitting out but on a large radius it can be painful. Preprotting everyone with Spirit Bond then aggroing but still dying after in like 1 second is bad.

RotteN

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

19 Jun 2008 at 17:21 - 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Don't know about anyone else, but I lol'd when thinking about pairing Spirit Bond with Spirit Bond.

gah, studying is seriously damaging my ability to reread properly so it seems. I ment protective spirit xD (adjusted in original post aswell)

Thizzle

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2008

19 Jun 2008 at 17:25 - 80

I like the idea, but three difficulties would be pushing it. I don't even like that they added Hard Mode except to go farm things in. It seems you put much thought into this though.

/signed.