What can ArenaNet offer me, a consumer, in terms of an enjoyable experience?

I'm new here, so hello everyone. I also want to change up the discussion a bit. Hopefully this is in the right place... I'd like an open discussion on what I can expect from Guild Wars 2, but I don't think this is a simple 'question + answer' sort of topic.

What can ArenaNet offer me, a consumer, in terms of an enjoyable experience? I do a fair bit of investigation before I buy most games. When I don't research a game before buying it, it's always a sequel to a previous title that I liked.

This year and the year to follow mark the biggest milestones in MMORPG history. Guild Wars 2 is soon to be released. Wrath of the Lich King will set another sequel for World of Warcraft. Diablo 3 apparently is or likely has been in production. (From the fact that Blizzard asked the original owners of the domain name diablo3.com for ownership rights to the domain. Although they stated that this doesn't mean Diablo 3 is in development, we all know why they wanted the domain.) Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures is also soon to be released.

For a week or so I've been researching existing problems that are inherent with Guild Wars and determining if its flaws can cause an otherwise dull or unpleasurable playing experience. For example, in the past I attempted to start a character in an MMORPG called SilkRoad Online. I'm not sure if you've heard of it, but one inherent flaw I detested beyond all reason was Skill Point or SP farming. Basically it meant keeping your skill masteries several stages below the player's level to be able to gain a higher ratio of SP than XP. This however made leveling even in the single digits take an unreasonable amount of time because I had to relinquish XP for maximal SP gain. From my investigation here I've noticed some inherent flaws which could make my Guild Wars playing experience short lived.

-- Lack of Endgame Content
This is the biggest flaw I can see from researching Guild Wars. From what I read, this may be the literal source of the apparently bad ingame economy. It's not necessarily that the game needs 'gold sinks' but that there is very little for the player to invest in or rather content to use gold for. PvP cannot simply be the only meaningful endgame content that Guild Wars can offer.

I'll refer to a game with the opposite problem, World of Warcraft. Upon reaching Level 70, there is still far too much damn content to do. Players continue to grind for money in that game to purchase new armors, gems, enchantments, etc because truly good equipment in WoW takes weeks upon weeks of grinding. To get the best items, players have to grind their characters by beating specific dungeon bosses over and over again to get a specific weapon or armor. This is my primary reason to dislike WoW. It is a never ending equipment grind. Just after you spend weeks or even months grinding to get the best possible armor set in the game from the latest released dungeon, Blizzard releases a new dungeon and new equipment for players to continue to grind for. The end result is that all this endgame content stacks up to such an extreme that you truly can only begin to play the game after spending 5 or 6 months leveling your character up to the level cap. I've even read that some WoW players are now labeling this phenomena as the 'infinite grind' and are beginning to detest this sort of endgame content. This kind of game is undesirable.

What I've yet to see is what ArenaNet can offer as an initiative to participate in endgame content once the player has reached the max level, or a sufficient level if ArenaNet decides to go without a level cap. There should be a set of goals the player should strive for in the game. Guild Wars aside from PvP is in such a lack of endgame content that players have self relegated that the ultimate goal of the game should be to have an Obsidian Armor Set or FoW Armor Set. (Whatever those mean, I'm not sure. I've noticed those two particular things have been mentioned frequently in the several economic debates going around.) From what I understand, the Obsidian Armor and FoW Armor sets are just skin variations that don't really have much of an incentive to achieve, other than bragging rights.

The question here is, now that ArenaNet notices the lack of endgame content and lack of a fleshed out leveling system (Level 20 being the max is the utter lowest I've seen from any MMORPG I've ever researched/played... By far.) can I trust that this problem be solved? From what I can interpret, the current Guild Wars 1 has a pretty short lived playing experience, that is if one doesn't feel any need to go after the small amount of endgame content left after getting to level 20. And this is what ArenaNet expected from players, but the playerbase contested and played Guild Wars as an MMORPG, despite its inherent lack in endgame content.

-- Superfluous Amounts of Skills
One of the biggest things I'm intimidated about is the sheer massive amounts of skills. I nearly crapped bricks after seeing over 60 skill icons on my sister's screen while playing WoW:BC when she first played her Lvl 70 Rogue after receiving it from a friend of hers. One thing I was relieved by when I saw Guild Wars was that you had a skill bar with eight slots. Well that makes things less confusing but much more difficult in another aspect.

How the hell should I know which skill out of the over 200 that's available per profession is good? I'd like to make my own Skill Bar sets, but it can get far too damn confusing for a single player to ease into. It sets up a whole new system because to use limitations to their fullest, a player has to make optimal use out of each and every single slot. While most players can say that 60% of all skills are crap, most skills are only useful when used in tandem with other skills. It then becomes a big problem to measure and weigh the benefits of skill combinations to others, which confuses the mess even further for me.

I'm just so intimidated by how exactly I can measure a skill to be better than another that all I believe I'll be capable of doing is following cookie cutter builds... There are Self Splinter Barrage Rangers, Perma-ShadowForm Assassins, Imbagons, Ursan (Although from what I read, it replaces your entire skill bar with preset skills...), Ether Renewal Elementalists, and it doesn't stop there. The possibilities for builds are just far too numerous to really count.

While on the surface one expects simplicity because of a constrained skill bar, in depth one can see that skill arrangement is bottomless. ArenaNet has stated this to be a problem they hope to solve with Guild Wars 2. However, what can I expect from this? I'd hope for 18 - 24 solid skills per attribute in the game, to give players freedom of choice but at the same time not flooding the players with "crappy" skills. A big problem in skill balance is also how skills are balanced against each other, rather than how professions could be balanced from their commonly used skills. The end result was that the unused skills just stay crappy while players only use the decent portion of skills. When I suggest 18 - 24 solid skills per attribute, I mean that 12 - 16 of those skills should be usable and efficient in high level play, depending on the skill combinations used.

-- Others
Other persisting problems include lack of features. I've read on Guild Wars 2 suggestions to include hair stylists... I was shocked. I took for granted that just about every MMO had boundless character customization that could be accessed whenever a player liked. However follow some big flaws...

- Arguably Ruined Economy
A bad economy really limits the freedom of fair player to player interaction. It seems good weapons are nearly worthless on Guild Wars, with IIRC 'Perfect Green' weapons only going for about 5K.

- Limited Economic Abilities
To trade in Guild Wars means shouting and typing constantly in towns just to sell your loot. I don't want to waste time selling loot just so I can buy armor to further increase my ability to explore new dungeons. I believe there's also a 1K Platinum cap in the bank which forces especially wealthy players to invest in other items if they want to increase their wealth beyond the bank's cap, such as Ecto and Shards, I believe. This kind of player regulated currency is always bound to fall apart. Players can't self regulate their own currency with Ecto and Shards, so economical potential is obviously very limited in this aspect. Players should be able to trade and rely on the given game currency itself for all trade matters.

Of course there's other problems. These problems are just overbearing to me, and taking note of them tells me I shouldn't bother with Guild Wars 1 in any way at all.

So I'm asking your opinion. How much faith do you have in ArenaNet and can you personally trust that these and other overbearing game flaws will be solved with Guild Wars 2?

Keep in mind that what I ask is more than "R u g0nna buy Gw2?!1one". So therefore its up to your own interpretation on how well the company can deliver for Guild Wars 2. I probably should've waited until we got more Guild Wars 2 info, but all the same... I suppose. Oh, and keep in mind I've only been researching into Guild Wars for perhaps 5 days now. I may be wrong on a lot of my info... X_x

EDITED by Commander Ryker : I started a new thread with this. Next time, do that first, rather then hijacking someone else's thread. If you want to change the title, PM me with the change and I'll fix it for you.

Nice post, I've actually enjoyed reading it.
You made two mistakes:

1) There is only FoW armor, no obsidian armor, although Obsidian Shards are needed to craft it
2) The maximum amount of gold that can be deposited is 1000K which equals 1 million gold. A character can carry a maximum of 100K

But you seem to know a LOT after 5 days. Kudos to you.

Obsidian armor is FoW armor. Clicky.

Hi Kain, i was gonna ask if you have done research into all the games you buy earlier, guess you did. any way

that aside,

you might want to read the Guild Wars 2 interview regarding your fear of the many skills.

Another one. (second links talks more about the persistant world + instancing and word pvp)

you can always look it up in guild wikis and guildwars official wiki for more infos.

Mainly this regarding skills;
"Speaking of running around the world, that's something you'll actually be able to do; run, jump, basically just dork around however you like. When you land in a new world, O'Brien explained, you don't want to have to read a bunch of skill descriptions, you want to run around and jump and swing, so that's what you'll be able to do in Guild Wars 2. It's meant to be a learn-by-doing sort of situation--rather than have overly complex skills that take an excessive amount of brain matter to understand, players will learn less complicated skills that they will be encouraged to test out in any situation they can think of. What happens if you use this skill while jumping, or that one while surrounded by monsters? Who knows? Give it a whirl and find out! Strain referred to it as "emergent complexity," and if it works the way they say it will, I shall personally send them each a fruit basket. Having a wide variety of skills in a game is great, but the amount of reading and memorizing you usually have to do to have even the most functional ability in an MMO is enough to drop me into a deep state of catatonia."

I don't know much about the economy of Guild Wars as I don't trade, I am interested in playing and what ever drops drops and if i happen to have enough money i'll buy whatever lol so can't help in that aspect. becasue for me, i can always get max armor, max weapons max anything from collectors.

(IMHO) if players don't want to grind, economy actually isn't a concern. just a thought.

Regarding how much faith I have with Arena Net 100% hahaha, from a fan point of view off course. you know, "eye of the beholder" I am not saying they don't have flaw, but I can over looked it as long as its free to play forever.

Now that I read more into it,
I fear GW 2 will have the "elit players thing" going one lol (don't know howt o describe it)

Please Read these paragraph:
"If you adventure out there, you're just playing as you, you don't have to form a team or get picked for a team - you can just wander out into the Mists and you can be fighting people right away. There could be 100 people on your side, there could be 200 people on your side, whatever there is, and you play as you, so if your character is level 15 you play as level 15, if you character is 50 you're playing as level 50.

We will have a sidekicking system similar to what City of Heroes has, where if you're going out with a level 50 friend, and you're only level 15, then he can increase your power to be the same as his power. So you have an easy way to get out there and start having fun PvP. The great thing about this intermediate form of PvP is that it's a really gentle introduction to PvP, because it doesn't matter how good you are, your team is better because you're on it. You know, your team is better the more people who come out into the Mists and play regardless of the skill of those people."

Do you think that players will "boost" anyone that is "out there fighting" with the party, or will they ignore you if your not with them? you know random guy playing ...

I mean, come on, look at Hall of Heros now, players already don't play with other players who don't have the desirable emote. what makes arena net thinks that a level 50 players are gonna boost a level 15 player??


italic font are quotes

Why does everyone on this forum seem entitled to something from anet?

Because we pay them money?

The way I really look at it is...While sure it has it's flaws, GW is one of the most well rounded games I have ever played.At first I hated the level cap, but, in the end its for the best as it keeps things balanced.Everyone has the same chance to do the same things, as anyone else.If you like Assassin, you can go up against anything else, Ele against anything, whatever.I haven't gotten into PVP and some aspects of the game as much as others so I cannot say there, but overall, as far as PVE goes...I love it.Especially with the addition of hard mode, after completing a given campaign, you can then try it again in hard mode, which, for me at least, actually makes the game a challenge, and more fun!And you can always start over with another class and try, it's fun to learn them all to me

And even beyond that, though it is rare, you can meet good people, and have a lot of fun.I really enjoy helping new players get into things too.All in all, given the amount of hours I have gotten out of GW, Factions, Nightfall, and EotN, no other game compares.It has been well worth the money, and I personally have no complaints really because it has more than paid for itself.Even if I only played each campaign once...

I'd like to see a few things different with GW2, but am scared of a few too.I haven't read much on it, but I really hope the new races don't come at the expense of fun classes like Assassin, Ritualist, etc...I'm sure the classes will change given the time it takes place in relation to the current games, but I hope they don't just have cookie cutter classes EVERY RPG has like Warriors, Rangers, etc...( I like those classes I just hope its not ALL they give us )

EDIT: And of course, it is amazing because it provides so much, for a one time payment.I've paid more for dvd's and gotten nowhere near the level of entertainment for the length of time I have with GW.So while it has it's flaws, it MORE than makes up for them.

We still pay, I mean if we buy GW 2. If not, then yeah, fixed.

But we aren't. Paying for GW1, that is. GW2 will be different (see below).

Anyway, I can agree with the lack of end-of-game PvE content, as many others can as well. But this is not Anet's fault really, they didn't expect so many people to stay in PvE, so they never tried hard for PvE content in Prophecies and what they could do with the game they had sometimes backfired (or the GW populous became hypocritic about said changes, take your pick). In the end, GW wasn't designed to be a long-lasting PvE game, but had great enough design elements that encouraged people to play it as such, and it ended up being unsatisfying near the end. That's why they need GW2: to design a very large PvE experience with some of the design elements that made GW1 so popular to make GW2 into the best PvE game they can make.

The thing I'm most afraid about in GW2 is the level cap.

I mean by that that in gw1, the level cap is 20, which means in pvp you don't have to play 20 hours a day to be a high level monk, or anything.

That's what makes places like RA/TA or GvG so exciting. You're perfectly equal with the opposing team, it's your intelligence and good gaming that makes a difference, whereas I'm afraid that in gw2 people who don't play enough won't be able to do high level pvp, just because if the guy facing you has 50 more levels, he'll just own you, however stupid he may be or good you may be.

You seem to have a very specific view of what a game should contain and what it shouldn't.
And it's because of that - only a very specific game will suit you.

Maybe GW just isn't for you.

Personally:
1. Lack of end-game content:
You reach max level in a matter of hours. Combine that with the ability to map-travel - and you have tons of things to do.
You can pretty much view the whole game as end-game content. Especially now with Hard Mode.
And that's just PvE.
2. Massive amount of skills:
I love the possibilities.
Plus PvE leaves room for error (and A LOT of it!) - so not running an optimal build will NOT prevent you from being successful at this game.
3. Lack of features:
The biggest issue with the "hairdresser" is the simple fact that you can't mix hairstyles/faces from various chapters.
4. Trashy economy:
I don't care for it.

So like I said - the game isn't bad - it just might not be a game for you.

An infinite amount?
The point is there is a time were what you payed them can't justify asking for more.
A company couldn't function off the money/demand ratio that many people have here.

Well it's not that I have a specific view of a game, but rather expectations I'd like met to give me the best playing experience. I mean, after reaching level 20, the only things left are to get good equipment and add mods to them to make them the best possible. Then I have to start a new character. The only way I can get any further enjoyment is either playing PvP which I hear is fun, or to start a new character.

Oh, and I like that PvE leaves a lot of room for error, then. I've watched a few videos of trap rangers killing 20+ trolls by making a huge pit of numerous traps. I guess it's trial and error with finding something that works, but that still does leave some big possibilities which are still intimidating.

Something else I'd like to know is whether the economy was trashy early on in the game's history? Because since Guild Wars 2 will be an entirely new game with everyone starting off at square one, can I expect a decent economy at least for some time?

Sorry, but the thing is I always try to do research into games so I don't end up playing a game halfway through and quitting because I didn't like the experience. I try not to waste good money on games I won't enjoy or won't finish.

I'm kind of asking how sure are you that Guild Wars 2 will be an enjoyable experience that will deliver a great experience for new players.

Read the forums, ask, or by experience.

It will be an enjoyable experience for the casual player until they start on GW3 with the promise it will be the ultimate GW once again.

Then again, the problem that arises is that I pretty much will be following cookie-cutter builds. There's a lack of content in some areas, but superfluous content in the skill area. We don't need as many skills, but we could use some more incentive to play our character even after reaching the max level.

The problem, perhaps, with the one time fee arrangement of Guild Wars is that people can't express dissatisfaction with the service by discontinuing its use. The only way they can speak as consumers if displeased is to not purchase future products from the company. I'm sure ANet is aware of this fact, and realizes that keeping the majority happy is important because it will determine future product sales (in this case GW2 and expansions, for some). Because ANet will not see subscriptions rise or fall in response to changes, even the company can't be sure how well it has invested in it's client pool with it's service changes. One thing is certain however: if Guild Wars had been left they way it came out of the box, or skills had been left unchanged after their initial release, the game would have bogged down over time to the point where no one would walk away from it happy. The updates are not only a good marketing move, but an absolutely necessary one. That being said, I haven't seen many players demands too insane on here. An auction house, for example, is not unreasonable, and has been a player request for a very long time. As for a money/demand ratio ... well, it's not like anyone seriously expects ANet to implement every crazy idea out of the Sanitarium ... just the ones that are discussed forever and get bandied about in every forum.

As for the OP:

1. End-Game Content
Guild Wars has a lot of end game content, but it doesn't feel particularly spectacular. One of my favorite things to play in the game is Fort Aspenwood ... I think more end game content where players have secondary goals other than killing other players/mobs and encounter players on a PvE map would work better than one where you kill a giant glowing ape. Personally I always thought it would be awesome to have a Realm of the Gods type area that would have several outposts under the control of the gods vying for resources (souls, followers, whatever). You would enter the map with a randomly generated team from the outpost and compete against other deities' teams for these resources while fighting the dark god armies and opposing god forces patrolling the terrain. If you die, you get sent back to the outpost after 30 seconds (if not raised) and have to enter the mission again (lining you up in a queue behind others already waiting) ... it would be a continuous battle that would reward points for resources obtained and provide special items and bonuses to players who followed the 'winning' god, determined at the end of each week. Some items rewarded this way could be used in the conflict, like trap and catapult kits or control over a small force of level 10 NPC henchmen ... anyway, I agree that this could be better, but I think it's a matter of quality, not quantity.

2. Superfluous Amounts of Skills
While I agree that superfluous skills are bad, a large skill set is not, provided that the skills are viable ... it's all a matter of balance and function. If a skill can provide a truly unique function while remaining balanced, great. If a skill can be balanced while still providing a unique function, great. Otherwise, not so great.

3. The Economy
In Guild Wars, the economy is stupid. Put simply, the concept of an economy shouldn't matter because the types of players the game should attract are those who prefer function over form (or game play over glitz, as the case may be). An economy only really matters in a world with disparities ... in a game that focuses on making everyone equal, with personal skill as the only qualifying factor of effectiveness, no true disparities (should) exist to generate a thriving economy. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless you're into RMTing (which you shouldn't be). In real life, if you could create the perfect world where money was not needed, you wouldn't need to be ashamed of a non-existent economy. Same thing here ... in fact, the economy of Guild Wars was never as ridiculous as many other online games simply because there is no difference between a green weapon, a gold weapon and a blue weapon with the same modifiers. Unique, rare or common, they all do the same thing ... so trading only occurs for aesthetic reasons, which aren't as pressing as performance reasons.

Umm i have played with the same character for over 2 years and i dont see a problem doing it for 2 more. Never even crossed my mind to make another 1 so i gues your wrong about after Lvl 20 there is nothing else to do.

In my experience after lvl 20 builds matter more then equipment as said in posts above HUGE selections of skills for one proffesion opens possibilities for creating unique builds...but wait we have what 10 other pofesions to combine it with umm yeah i think you would have lots and lots of possibilities after lvl 20. And you know Skill>Time that GW was advertising since day 1 it still holds up to a certain point.

NOt a PvP person but im sure tons of fun there. AS for economy never bothered me (personal opinion)

You have to experience GW to judge it. And im sure GW 2 wont be a let-down proffesionals work on it you know people who do that for a living and they wont make stupid,huge,irreversable mistakes. But non-the-less mistakes you can expect

Just my 2 cents ~Ghost Omel~

I think thats a total misconception you have there Kain. In the original Prophecies, it took ages to get to level 20, and only then did the real meat of the game open up to you (although it is possible to finish the game at a much lower level if you have people run you). On your journey to lvl 20, you had the opportunity to explore different environments including some of the most breath taking I've ever seen in a game, learn numerous skills, work out which of those skills you were comfortable with and worked and basically learn the game.

In Factions and Nightfall, the race to lvl 20 became much shorter, specifically I think coz Anet were trying to cater for old and new players. But again, once you hit lvl 20, only then does the real game open up to you - once you get out of the starter area, the real challenge begins, its just that in Prophs you do this at circa lvl 8-9 and in Factions and NF its lvl 19-20.

So lvl 20 is most definately not end of for a particular character.

Hope that helps to clarify something for you.

Rich

In addition to above posts, I get the impression from a lot of people around here that the level cap is bad. lolwut?

As soon as you start raising the level cap it becomes WoW which is a game based around the amount of time you've played and the gear you've collected. The beauty of Guild Wars is that (at least before Ursan/PvE skills) skill > time played. I would much rather play a game that rewards you for being a good player than a game that rewards you like "You've played 1000 hours! Have epic mount plz." *yes, I know that's not quite how it works but I'm making a point*

If they raise the level cap, it had better be 30 max. If they start aiming for 50, 60, 70, etc. like WoW then they probably lose my entire guild along with tons of other paying customers. Not to mention having multiple characters on one account is pretty much eliminated. If I wanted to play WoW I'd play WoW. I want my Guild Wars back.