The New Zaishen

In short, before you tl;dr this post: Remake RA, TA, HA, GvG, AB, and HB using actual builds used in each, giving tips as to how your build should be made or how to fight your foes. Also leads to (limited per day) faction and a simple title that cannot be maxed without maxing the rest of the PvP titles, to inspire people to try it.

Since the Zaishen Challenge/Elite as they are now are just PvP-free ways to get faction, let's add some new ones that are designed to actually teach people a little about PvP.

This requires a quick reading of templates by the server each time a team enters. The server would copy the build and equipment and put it under a list of usable combos for the given PvP type.

Zaishen Random Arena
Random Arena-esque, pulls random full templates off of characters who actually enter random arenas.
You and 3 NPCs vs. 4 NPCs, RA-style.

Some things it should recognize and use "properly":
Warrior/Monk with Healing Prayers spells (maintain Mending or whatever, attack indiscriminately)
Ranger/Necromancers with Touch skills from Blood Magic (run up and use Vamp touches, use speed boosts)
Other fruity RA phenomena I'm not aware of (whatever non-AI things they do to make their builds "work")

Pre-game hints:
-You may want to reconsider your equipment. (Equipment piece) is not considered very useful in this PvP style because (reason).
-You may want to reconsider your build. (Skill) is not considered very useful in this PvP style because (reason).
-You may want to reconsider your build. You have (number) different attributes; it is generally better to focus on only 3 at a time.
-Can you survive? You don't have many self-defensive skills. In this arena, you can't count on teammates.
-Can you maintain your output? You have several expensive skills and/or minimal energy gaining ability.
-Can you help your team? You have a lot of self-defensive skills and few things that can help win the match.
-Did you bring a Resurrection Signet? If you aren't a healer or protector, you probably should.
-(whatever else is needed, feel free to suggest)


In-game hints:
-That (character) can only damage you up close. Try and stay back, making you a less appealing target.
-That (character) has a reusable resurrection skill. You need to get them or disrupt their skill.
-That (character) just used (defensive skill). You may want to change targets until it wears off.
-That (character) is running away! Snare it, if you can!
-Is your Preist safe?
-Some of the other team isn't with them. Check the radar and find where they are before they surprise you.
-(whatever else is needed, feel free to suggest)

Zaishen Team Arena
Team Arena-esque, pulls random full templates off of teams that actually enter random arenas.
Your party and any needed RA NPCs to make 4 vs. 4 NPCs

Some things it should recognize and use "properly":
-Spike builds
-Whatever TA has

Pre-game hints:
-Do you need two defensive characters like that?
-(Skill) is popular in this arena. Does your team have a way around it?
-Is your party ready to go? Be sure before you enter.
-(whatever else is needed, feel free to suggest)


In-game hints:
-Those characters are coordinating a spike! Try to predict their target and protect it.
-(whatever else is needed, feel free to suggest)

Zaishen Tournament
Eight person teams vs. various 8 NPC teams, made of actual HA templates recently used. Goes all the way to the Hall of Heroes mockup.

I don't play HA, someone else who does can come up with recognitions and hints for pre-game and in-game.

Zaishen Guild Battle
Eight person vs. eight NPC, GvG rules, pulled GvG builds.

I don't play GvG, someone else who does can come up with recognitions and hints for pre-game and in-game.

Zaishen Hero Battle
One person, 3 hero vs. 4 NPCs, Hero Battle rules, pulled HB builds.

I don't play HB, someone else who does can come up with recognitions and hints for pre-game and in-game.

Zaishen Alliance Battle
Guess.

In-game hints:
-Stay with your team. You'll be vulnerable to assassins if you are alone.
-Lead your team from capture point to capture point to help your side of the conflict.
-etc.

Standard faction levels from each of these (no Lux/Kurz faction from ZAB), limit of 4000 per day.

PvPer title, to get people to try it.
1 point for 10 ZRA wins, 1 for 10 ZTA wins, 1 for holding ZT HoH, 1 for a ZGvG win, 1 for 5 ZHB wins, 1 for 2 ZAB wins, 1 each for maxing PvP titles (not Lux/Kurz). These points are non-repeatable; you must get each to max the title.

New PvPer (2 points)
Aspiring PvPer (4 points)
Practiced PvPer (6 points)
Experienced PvPer (8 points)
Veteran PvPer (11 points) (That is all the ZPvP points, max Hero, max Glad, max HB, max Champ, and max Zaishen. That is a hell of a lot of work, and it is not going to mess up the GWAMM title.)

This would be about the best tutorial for PvP and if something like that was implemented i surely would give it a go.

You want to remake pvp?

/notsigned

oh and lol@ vunerable to assassins, if you dont know how to run to the nearest safe shrine then, lol @ you

and did you ever consider that some people enjoy playing gimmick builds because thats whats GW is about, FUN. If i were new to pvp, and i had some big box pop up telling me what i was doing right and wasnt doing right id probably stop pvping right there. Again, if i had a build that i enjoyed playing i dont want to be told by a computer how terribad it is. This isnt BUILD wars.

oh and while im here, that title sounds silly.

and as for the 'those players are using a spike build' by the time youve read what it says your team is going to have been spiked, so thats silly. I could probably pick holes at this all night but ill stop now.

You could also just play some games of ra and get the same results ?!

i agree 100% with you why remake PvP, theres not supposed to be a tutorial for it or anything, why change what doesn't need to be changed.

seriously though, that wouldn't be pvp, your going against NPC's please, and i'd see that title being to esy to get, up untill the last rank, its not very well balanced

I don't know where you got that from, I got this idea as a tutorial for PvP

That's not what that idea is for. Its to help make people more accustomed to going in groups of 4 and not bring solo builds into AB (cannot into ZAB, indirect influence on AB). But the ZAB needs a rule to eliminate mobbing.

what is fun for you can be annoying to others, you can find other builds and still have fun. If you only have fun by playing gimmick builds, then, imo, GW isn't for you because gimmick builds=not balanced and the original intent of GW was for balance (although thats slowly going away)

its what you call a joke title, only to add an influence for people to do this form of PvP.

Pre-game means in the outpost, In-game means during the count down to fight starting. So thats not so silly.

I poked holes in your comment, didn't take me all night, and I went through it all.

If your gonna say everything is bad about an idea, then at least try to make an argument that cannot be shot full of holes too. /endsarcasm (since you didn't get that it was sarcasm, no argument cannot be shot full of holes, nor can any idea. Nothing that is said cannot be twisted or "shot down" to favor the opposing argument.)

Oh, and btw, /notsigned. Good intent, and in case you didn't know, there is a Tutorial area for PvP, although crappy, and a new arena could be good, but not copies of all existing arenas.

I'll /sign for ZRA and ZTA though, rest, not much need. The existing tutorial is a cheap form of your ZTA, although only one way to win (kill count). If you can cap shrines in AB, you can in HB, and you'll have less problem in HA.

So, /halfsigned.

Oh, nearly forgot, no no no no no no no no to the title. 11 points to max? 22 AB wins in a row and your done. N... O...

this would cause an incredible amount of problems due to heroes not being able to use many skills effectively and many organised pvp teams deal with things like spikes, which the AI would be able to handle the first time (see the obsidian elementalists) but afterwards it would be just chaos,

With the terrible AI of heroes n' henchman, I don't see how they could make these "New Zaishen" too terribly smart. To me, this would just be a short PvE title, seeing as you're just fighting against NPC's.

Did you actually read the first line? look ill quote it for you

Now, forgive me if im being ever so slightly retarded but does he not say he wishes to remake pvp RIGHT there? i even put it in bold for you.

Theres nothing wrong with taking solo build into AB's. I quite happen to like going ele and being able to cap any shrine single handedly. If i see red dots coming my way, i turn 180 degreees and run away to cap something else.

So people who use gimicks shouldnt be allowed to play incase someone else doesnt like it? thats 90% of the player base gone. Also, welcome to the internet.

Im pretty sure the OP wasnt joking.

How on earth is the computer going to know without being fortold, what other RANDOM people are going to be using? every single build is capable of a spike of somesort, so im going to be forever plaguedwith this message?

i dont recall saying my argument was perfect, neither is yours.

actually, I skipped the first line and went right to the idea .

Nothing wrong with it, but its very annoying to others.

First, that "welcome to the internet" is very old and very annoying. Just because its the internet doesn't mean that people MUST get pissed off at others. Second, how I was taking the suggestion, would be that about 20%, if that, of the player base would even bother to do this. Most of which would/should be new players to PvP, so that would leave what, 5% people not using gimmick builds using your 90%? Doesn't matter to me.

Maybe not, but the title would become a joke title, just like Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, and Drunkard (they are imo at least)

That message is given through the In-game text =O. Might not be what the OP said (not gonna bother re-reading it), but that what it should/would be.

I'll go ahead and edit my first post. I forgot to add /sarcasm

Each of these accomplishments will get you a point toward the title exactly once. Meaning, you can get a title, but not a maxed one, unless you go about maxing PvP titles, which takes awhile. So, you can go get your 2 ZAB wins and get a point... but you'll get no more points from ZAB.

Reasonable concerns to address:

1. How it detects a spike.
It won't get all the spikes. It'll probably just look for the most obvious things like Rangerspike, teams built specifically for spiking. It could probably detect similar preparations, or all the rangers having Dual Shot. If the server has extra time on its hands, it could even record data on the team that was using a build, seeing how close together they activated certain skills on one target, and maybe say "OMIGASH SPIKE." Last part seems unlikely, though.

2. The AI sucks too much.
Point. Modify the AI to have certain preset things it does, like run back and forth with a flag or some such. Or... use a set group of builds that the AI can use effectively as opposed to getting proper builds. The current Zaishen does this, but they have problems. Better builds, team built builds, whatever. As for spikes themselves, as opposed to making them perfect, they could throw in a random delay on each NPC, leaving an opening to counter it.

3. I want to remake PvP.
No, I want to make a series of tutorial based on PvP, designed to be used just to get people into the idea of PvP and maybe prevent people from just taking in PvE builds without thinking about how PvP builds work differently. Sorry if my wording isn't too great.
--It could even stop giving faction after earning a point from each ZPvP mode. It is just to get people an idea of what they're supposed to do in PvP before the people who PvP regularly have to play with them. They play once to get their bearings, then leave until they want to test a build or something silly.

4. There's not supposed to be a tutorial or anything, why change it?
There is a tutorial, it's just not a very good one, and I want to expand it to help people get into PvP. It seems to me that people might get into PvP, but they go in and lose because they use PvE-based builds and tactics that don't work on people. (If this thought of mine here is wrong, feel free to say so.)

5. You could get the same results from playing RA.
You could get these various hints and tips after being sworn at, ridiculed and frustrated over the course of an hour, at which point someone is probably sick of it. Also, some people are thick and need to be told more directly rather than just through experience (wherein they may just blame the rest of the team anyway. :/ )

6. USELESS TITLE.
The title is just to get people to try it. Motivation. The last rank is so people don't swarm the thread saying it cheapens GWAMM or something.

7. if you dont know how to run to the nearest safe shrine then, lol @ you
If you don't know how to run to the nearest safe shrine, then you might be new to PvP, and taking the tutorial before you start ABing. Gee... Also, that could be an excellent hint to add.

8. I don't want the computer telling me my build is bad.
Then you can have someone else tell you your build is bad, but if we can filter bad builds out before they get into RA, then maybe RA will improve in quality. Besides, it only says that your build may have a problem, it doesn't keep you from entering. We could even put an addendum to the hint, saying that you can certainly use the build if you're confident it would work.

9. Soloing works in AB.
Well, then we can have separate hints for soloing. Little check box at the beginning of whether or not you are going to be with your group or running alone. If you are soloing, it could even throw NPCs to fill the rest your your party slots, and critique your build based on being alone rather than with allies.

10. If you can cap shrines in AB, you can cap shrines in HB, or anywhere shrine capping is needed.
So ZHB will have hints more focused on controlling heroes. Or maybe ZHB won't exist, since hero commanding is practiced enough in PvE.

11. ZRA and ZTA okay, but not others so much.
Well, the game as it is is sorely lacking on tutorials that help with GvG and HA. It would be nice to throw new people a bone on these.

Other concerns?

tl;dr.

I got through part of your RA section, and the gist of your post seems to be that you want to slap a tutorial on every mode of PvP available. I can't imagine the nightmare of putting that together.

The title is also bad. You'll have just about everyone and their cousin stuck at "Practiced PvPer", because I doubt anybody on GW has maxed any PvP title so far, and even if they had, they'd need to max a second one to raise themselves to the next tier in the title.

Good concept, but it's not one that can be added this late in the game. Plus, I think ANet would screw up the builds/AI and make them more effective than some people actually are. I wouldn't want the common player to think that 80% of people that play RA are smart.

/notsigned

/not signed

Holy smokes 4 Healing hands Mending Wammos vs 4 healing Hands Mending Wammos, fun stuff. WTF am I gonna learn from that, how to be a complete douche? Will the tutorial tell me to call the other team "noobs" in all chat cause it's hard to kill me? No one will learn anything by clinking a button and suddenly having a bar someone else used at random. not EVERY build actully used in an area is good, and how do you expect the Server to figure out whats good and whats bad to randomly apply to a team?

If you want tutorials improve the OBS modes, keep more matches on there longer, add one for TA, NOT RA, even add OBS for AB I guess, as well as various other maps In HA so people can learn those

No more dipshit titles either

/not signed

dude you have too much time on your hands to be worrying this much.


Also, tl;dr.

Interesting idea; I kind of like it. Guild Wars PvP is dying simply because there's less participation in it because of the skill level of the people currently in the PvP scene - GvG is incredibly difficult to get into now simply because you have to know so much, and many of the roles are no longer linear; split builds and 8v8 builds have become more complicated as skill power has increased.

ZGvG in my opinion should involve several builds
1. Balanced (whatever the meta may be; in this meta it usually involves 1 ranger, 1 Power Block, 1 Icy Shackles)
2. Some sort of spike build, more specifically, D/A spike
3. Hexes
4. Condipressure
5. Split

It shouldn't be that difficult to program some of the things, but there should be some characteristics that should be implemented into the AI to teach players what to do in certain situations.

Pre-Game, the game should be able to detect if your build has enough damage or not - if all you do is have defense, and expect to kill things without Deep Wound or a clean spike or huge condition pressure, the game should be able to tell you that "you are being an idiot and won't kill anything" unless you are iQ. Of course, if you have Glyphsac Met Shower, you should be able to win the game regardless.

Balanced
Against balanced, the enemy mesmer should be able to interrupt every skill that is deemed "critical" based on a certain situation. First of all, the enemy AI should be able to interpret which team has more pressure, and what position they need to take. If the AI team is taking too much pressure, the AI mesmer should begin to interrupt skills like Diversion, Shame, Signet of Humility, Icy Shackles, etc. It will begin to teach players to cancel their skills (Signet of Humility) and teach players to cast out of range of the mesmer to get their skills through. Tips should appear on the screen, denoting what is shutting down your team at any point, and whether your team is taking more pressure or not. Of course, this would be a little counterproductive as it would ruin teams' ability to communicate who is taking more pressure, but it doesn't really matter.
If you are failing on stand 8v8, some tips should appear as to whether you should split or not. Eventually people will begin recognizing that if they are failing 8v8, they should split.

Obviously, this is enough for a whole essay, but you get the idea.

Okay then... maybe pulling random builds out of RA is not the best idea, I'll give you that.

Two better options, then:
1. A set of prebuilt characters designed for RA. There are such things as "good RA builds," so just use them.
2. Take builds from RA characters that get 10 wins and were sent to TA. Filters out outright idiocy while still leaving surprise builds, but it still leaves a chance to encounter something retarded.

Your bar is whatever you bring. The bars of the NPCs in the match are the random ones.

I went with a title because GW has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that if you let someone put words underneath their name for doing something, no matter how silly the words are, people will strive to have these silly words.
Basically, the mode needs a carrot on a stick to encourage non-PvPers to try it, and then maybe they'll get into PvP.
If someone has a better lure to players than a title, that could be used instead. I'm not a major fan of titles myself, either.

Improved Observer that explains what people are doing would also be very helpful, but there is a gap between watching someone do something and actually practicing doing it.

PVP involves learning. People learned how to do it before by practice(and not being retarded). You can learn most of this stuff from reading guides, then practicing. There are still PvE'ers switching to PvP everyday. IMO this will not affect anything and just be kinda useless new content. I like short sentences

/notsigned

R/W:
punishing shot
natural stride
troll unguent
disciplined stance
healing signet
penetrating attack
power shot
res sig

12+2+1 marksmanship
8+2 wilderness
8 tactics
7+1 expertise

Check. This bar fits all the criteria.

Natural Stride, Troll Unguent, Disciplined Stance, Healing Signet
-You may want to reconsider your build. Power Shot is not considered very useful in this PvP style because it's additional damage is minimal and not armor-ignoring.
-You may want to reconsider your build. You have 4 different attributes; it is generally better to focus on only 3 at a time.
-You may want to reconsider your equipment. Dual major runes are not considered very useful in PvP because they reduce your health significantly and take place of Vitae runes. Extra health is at a premium in PvP.

Bending the rules a bit, I imagine that there are plenty more hints that need to be fit in, the template I gave isn't complete or perfect.
-Do you need Natural Stride and Disciplined Stance together? They may be redundant. It might be better to take just one.
-Do you need Troll Unguent and Healing Signet together? They may be redundant. It might be better to take just one.
(Some exceptions to this hint may be given, such as Distracting Shot + Savage Shot)
-Do you really need the secondary class skill Healing Signet? You can take the ranger skill Troll Unguent to cover it's effect.
-Do you really need the secondary class skill Disciplined Stance? You can take the ranger skills Natural Stride, Whirling Defense, (etc. I don't need to list them) to cover it's effect.
-You may want to reconsider your build. Punishing Shot is not considered very useful in this PvP style because non-elites like Distracting Shot and Savage Shot do enough of the job of interrupting, so you can save your elite for something else, such as Crippling Shot.
(May need an exception for Magebane Shot)

This would really be cool

Might be a good way to learn a bit about pvp

I dont got much pvp expierence myself so