Beginning Hero Questions

Samra

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

27 Jun 2008 at 14:56 - 1

I just got both Factions and Nightfall -- I'm an old-time Prophecies player -- and I picked up the initial four heroes (two monks, warrior, and dervish) in Nightfall today.

Two questions:

1) Will I get along fine using the two monks + warrior, or should I go pick up the elementalist or ranger hero before going back to Factions? (I want to play through Factions first, to get Dragon Slash and Flail for my warrior.)

2) Is this an okay monk bar?

[dwayna's kiss][heal other][healing breeze][mend ailment][purge conditions][remove hex][ward against melee][rebirth]

I switched both heroes to Healing because I have the feeling the AI will suck at Protection. I left out Heal Party for the same reason. Should I add some Protection spells? Maybe switch out Ward Against Melee for Glyph of Lesser Energy?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Jun 2008 at 15:12 - 2

Res on Monks is kinda bad, they need an active bar to combat any situation.

Healing Breeze is quite bad. It requires heavy attribution and consumes energy faster than anything.

You shouldn't need two condition removals, one is enough.

Ward Against Melee should really be on an Ele bar.

It also lacks an elite.

I suggest:

[word of healing][dwaynas kiss][signet of rejuvenation][aegis][shield of absorption][dismiss condition][remove hex][energy management skill]

Aegis and SoA are both skills that can't be screwed up in the hands of the AI.
Word of Healing is your power heal, Dwayna's and Signet are both secondary heals. They should remove conditions fine.

If you don't have Word of Healing, I would consider a different heal over it. Yes, even Orison of Healing...

And if you're runing up; 12+1+1 Healing, 10+1 Prot, 8+1 Divine.
Either that or 11+1+1 Healing, 11+1 Prot, 8+1 Divine.

Samra

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

27 Jun 2008 at 15:16 - 3

willypiggy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/Mo

27 Jun 2008 at 15:18 - 4

for 1K balth faction you can unlock a skill and your hero can then use that skill.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Jun 2008 at 15:18 - 5

[[shield of absorption] for [[shielding hands] and [[dismiss] for [[mend ailment] in my opinion.

BlueNovember

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

WTS GW2 items for Zkey

Mo/

27 Jun 2008 at 15:18 - 6

What class do you play yourself?
For normal mode I find taking 2 hench monks is generally more than sufficient, with perhaps some utility stuff on your heroes. Leaves you to play around with 3 damage heroes and speed through quicker.

I would get the ele hero. Good old fashioned fire nuking works fine in nm.

Monk bar needs a little work. AI use prot reasonably well, although they don't pre-prot. Mend Ailment would be a good subst for Dismiss Condition.

Healing - If you have faction to unlock stuff;
[Patient Spirit][Dwayna's kiss][Heal Party][remove hex][Healer's Boon][Power Drain][Leech Signet][rebirth]

Healing - Pure proph;
[Word of healing][dwayna's kiss][orison of healing][ x ][remove hex][Power Drain][Leech Signet][rebirth]
Where x is [Healing Seed], [Heal Party], or [Mend Condition] (with only left over points in prot)

The N/Rt healer (see link below) does a better job of "make red bars go up". Healer's boon churning out heal parties is a good contender though.

Prot;
[Rof][Spirit Bond][Restore Condition][Shield of Absorption][Shielding Hands][Remove Hex][Power Drain][Leech Signet]
Subout shielding hands if you want a res on him. 6 inspiration.

Ideally you want be running some sort of tripple necro build, as it pretty much stomps all of pve.
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Te...Necro_Vanquish is one such example. Drop the N/Rt for a Monk as you won't have any of the skills. Skills on the other bars you can tweak, probably with [Aura of the Lich] as the minion master's elite.

Edit: Yikes, replies.
"Signet of Agony" should be "Shield of Absorption" in post above. The forum software has messed up despite Tyla typing it correctly. Wierd.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Jun 2008 at 15:19 - 7

^
Monks suck with RoF and Spirit Bond, and res on Monks is bad in general.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

27 Jun 2008 at 15:20 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samra

I don't have Word of Healing, but I can go capture it in Prophecies.

But I definitely don't have [shield of absorption] or [dismiss condition] and can't get those easily right now. What would be the best Core/Prophecies substitutes? You can use [shielding hands] instead of shield of absorption and [mend condition] or [mend ailment] instread of dismiss condition.

Samra

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

27 Jun 2008 at 15:24 - 9

Thanks for the help, everyone.

Quote:

What class do you play yourself?

Quote:

Ideally you want be running some sort of tripple necro build, as it pretty much stomps all of pve. I've read about the Sabway build, but as far as I can tell, I have to complete a lot of Nightfall before I get even two necros. Then I have to buy GWEN to get the third. So that will take some time ... my thought is that I'm best off trying to get through Factions and Nightfall before worrying about that.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Jun 2008 at 15:48 - 10

I would consider an Elementalist using the following:

[savannah heat][searing heat][teinai's heat][rodgort's invocation][ward against melee][gole][no skill][death pact signet]

Or for a more offensive version:

[savannah heat][searing heat][teinai's heat][rodgort's invocation][splinter weapon][ancestor's rage][gole][death pact signet]

Splinter Weapon deals the highest AoE damage in the game at a spammable rate. The reason I would go with an Ele is because the AI of melee sucks.

As for your build, I suggest:
[dragon slash][sever artery][gash][flail]["for great justice!"]["save yourselves!"][no skill][no skill]

You'll need rank 1 Kurzick or Luxon. Just thought I'd like to add this bit.

Also, skills like [[enraging charge], [[enduring harmony] are good additions to the build. Maybe add a conjure on for more damage.

Samra

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

27 Jun 2008 at 16:31 - 11

Thanks.

I won't be able to make an Ele build quite that good yet, because I don't have Savannah Heat -- I just got Nightfall. But I can give the Ele [Elemental Attunement] instead. Do they use that and [Fire Attunement] well? I figure they idiot proof.

I'm definitely working to get a build similar to what you suggested for my Warrior. That's why my focus is Factions, to get Dragon Slash and Flail ASAP.

One other question for you -- why no rez for the monks? I'm either going to be using Henchmen or PUGs for the other group slots, so there will be deaths. Maybe give them Rebirth but just disable it, so they don't waste time during combat?

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

27 Jun 2008 at 16:36 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samra

I'm playing my Warrior right now. Does that mean using Koss is okay, since his For Great Justice helps me? Or am I better off getting that Elementalist? I figure two monks + elementalist should be okay for getting through Factions, etc. FGJ does not affect anyone but the warrior using it afaik. Regardless, I'd take the ele over Koss. But better yet would be an MM. Get Olias from prophecies. Even if you don't have the best elites for an MM yet, the basic animate skills used by a necro hero will give you a standing meat shield just about all the time. As for the monk heroes, I think the hench monks do pretty good. I rarely take monk heroes for that reason, but I'd certainly suggest you limit it to one monk hero if you want to go that route. How about a healing monk, MM necro, and nuker ele?

And yes, the ele heroes use attunements great. They'll have them up 24/7.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Jun 2008 at 16:38 - 13

It's not idiot proof, but it should work.

As for no res on Monks, they should have an active bar. Your midliners or frontliners should be doing the ressing, as if you're dying and need to fall back and res, you're better off just wiping.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

27 Jun 2008 at 17:20 - 14

I highly recommend you go to prophecies and get olias. Set him up as a MM and Factions is easy town all the way to shiro. Beyond that I would recommend getting the Ele hero and running either something along the 2nd build Tyla posted or an SF build. From the rest of the heroes available to you a monk would probably be best, as the monks in Factions suck hard (no energy 10 seconds into the fight lolol, though the rits are good). In Prophecies and Nightfall though you can take another offensively minded hero, as the monks in the other campaigns are far closer to being as good as your heroes could be then the other classes are to what you can make with your respective heroes.

You don't have to capture a skill to get it on your heroes, heroes automatically get any skill unlocked on your account. Go PvP for 20 mins, get 3k faction and unlock a skill at a priest of balthazar and your heroes can use any elite you want.

Samra

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

27 Jun 2008 at 17:29 - 15

sixofone

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

27 Jun 2008 at 18:20 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samra

Where in Prophecies is Olias? Based on the Wiki, I thought I had to get to the "Consulate Docks" in Factions to get him.

Also, what should I use for the MM build? Something like the one from Sabway?

And how the heck do you get 3,000 PvP points so fast? (It's been a long time since I've played, so if this is an obvious question, I'm sorry.) The Consulate Docks (Nightfall) is where you get the quest to acquire Olias. Then, you travel back to LA and speak to Lionguard Figo (sp?) and he'll send you on a mini-quest incident at the end of which you have Olias.

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

27 Jun 2008 at 19:49 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samra

And how the heck do you get 3,000 PvP points so fast? (It's been a long time since I've played, so if this is an obvious question, I'm sorry.) Might take you longer than 20 mins doing Random Arena or Team Arena. You haven't reached alliance battles in Factions yet, which gives you another, though slower, option.

He probaly is referring to the training arena, zaishen challenge, and zaishen elite on the isle of the nameless (accessed from great temple of balthazar). It looks like pvp, but its you and 3 friends or heroes/henches against an AI team. You get balthazar faction for wins, capped at a max amount per day. Check the wiki for details.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

27 Jun 2008 at 20:00 - 18

Yeah, my bad, I always forget about how olias was changed, its used to be his quest was straight out of LA. It isn't too far to get to consulate from a foreign character though, the hoops you have to jump through are far fewer and you can get an ele or ranger hero on the way.

As far as getting balthazar faction, RA is very fast if you can play certain builds well (monks especially), but otherwise Zaishen is quite fast. You would probably like Alliance Battles more though. AB isn't as good as RA or Zaishen, but its fairly consistent whether you are a great player or a decent player. You will also be gaining kurzick/luxon faction which will remove a roadblock in Factions PvE, along with giving you progress to the respective title that powers imba PvE skills (Save Yourselves! for warriors). AB is also probably going to be by far the most fun if you enjoy PvE more then PvP. So AB is probably the best deal, even if you might not be able to make 3k in 20 mins (though you might still be able to).

For the MM build, just look in the necromancer section of campfire. Honestly 2/3rds of the threads there are people asking for the same necromancer MM builds, and everyone replies with basically the same stuff. I personally have probably posted the same 2 or 3 builds 10x in the last few months, so please find it yourself.

Samra

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

27 Jun 2008 at 20:24 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

For the MM build, just look in the necromancer section of campfire. Honestly 2/3rds of the threads there are people asking for the same necromancer MM builds, and everyone replies with basically the same stuff. I personally have probably posted the same 2 or 3 builds 10x in the last few months, so please find it yourself. Thanks a lot. I'll take a look at the Necro forum ... I just thought that there might be a difference between a good human MM build and a good hero one.

Thanks again.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Jun 2008 at 20:33 - 20

The difference between hero MM's and human MM's is that hero MM's can manage [[death nova] better. It causes armour-ignoring AoE damage when the minion, or meat sack explodes.

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

27 Jun 2008 at 20:59 - 21

They can handle jagged bones better too. That's a great elite for your MM hero BTW.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Jun 2008 at 21:01 - 22

Not really, hitting Jagged Bones on a human's bar automatically targets the minion with the least health.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

27 Jun 2008 at 21:05 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The difference between hero MM's and human MM's is that hero MM's can manage [[death nova] better. It causes armour-ignoring AoE damage when the minion, or meat sack explodes. This is completely untrue. A good necro can have Death Nova on a minion before it dies just as a good monk puts prot on an ally before they get hammered. Yes, its harder then simply spamming minion making skills on recharge and popping out a BotM when your health is high, but its very possible to beat Heroes are minion bombing. I just wouldn't recommend it to a person needing help with MMing, just as I wouldn't recommend an OOU build to them.

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

27 Jun 2008 at 21:15 - 24

Sure, humans can use death nova, some well, but not as consistently as a hero imo.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Jun 2008 at 21:19 - 25

My claim is that heroes manage it easier than heroes naturally. The effort the AI puts in is nothing compared to a human, especially when the area is clumped up.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

27 Jun 2008 at 23:25 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

Sure, humans can use death nova, some well, but not as consistently as a hero imo.

Wrong. A necro hero will consistently use it where it makes no sense: when facing ranged enemies, on targets that obviously aren't going to die, when out of battle, ect. They also use it on minions that are going to die before the cast is done wasting precious time and energy (and time is probably the most precious resource to a necro, they depend on spamming skills constantly). A good human is far better then a hero at Minion Bombing. I personally was a MB'er quite a long time ago back when TOPK farming was the shit, so I can say that a focused human player can significantly outpreform heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

My claim is that heroes manage it easier than heroes naturally. The effort the AI puts in is nothing compared to a human, especially when the area is clumped up. Well, if you want to put it like that, since the AI technically doesn't put in any effort at all, humans are always worse then heroes. If you instead want to make the case that the difference between a human and hero bomber is not great enough for a human to be a bomber rather then a curser or another build, thats a valid arguement. But giving a blanket statement along the lines of 'lolol human MB'ers suxorz, heroes r teh r0x0rz' is wrong. Obviously you haven't done this, but I have heard people who take this position. I dislike such people who try to convince others that certain things are impossible, that human necros shouldn't strive to better themselves and their builds and should instead just be a boring minion master who hits 1-2-3-sometimes 4 which requires barely more intelligence then an ursan.

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

28 Jun 2008 at 11:50 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Those need [[Fire Attunement].

Quote: Originally Posted by Samra Thanks.

I won't be able to make an Ele build quite that good yet, because I don't have Savannah Heat -- I just got Nightfall. But I can give the Ele [Elemental Attunement] instead. Do they use that and [Fire Attunement] well? I figure they idiot proof. Fire Attunement is idiot proof. Providing they have the energy they will always try to keep it active both in an out of combat. Always try to make the energy management in Hero Builds as idiot-proof as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samra

One other question for you -- why no rez for the monks? I'm either going to be using Henchmen or PUGs for the other group slots, so there will be deaths. Maybe give them Rebirth but just disable it, so they don't waste time during combat? Not giving Monks a resurrect is not set in stone. If you feel safer giving your monks a resurrect then do so, but I think everyone would advise you definitely disable it. If you're confident in your abilities and your team in that you're not too likely to partywipe then remove the resurrect for more useful skill.

An FYI, in case you didn't know. The Stickied Guide at the top of this forum contains info on a lot of the more useful skills for heroes, on how well they use them. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10293264

rick1027

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/R

28 Jun 2008 at 17:21 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The difference between hero MM's and human MM's is that hero MM's can manage [[death nova] better. It causes armour-ignoring AoE damage when the minion, or meat sack explodes. i have to disagree when my hero mm has death nova he stands around casting it on other heros and henchies and not making minions. never had a hero mm who didnt do that

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

28 Jun 2008 at 17:32 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

But giving a blanket statement along the lines of 'lolol human MB'ers suxorz, heroes r teh r0x0rz' is wrong. Obviously you haven't done this, but I have heard people who take this position.

I didn't say anything like that. I would simply take a hero bomber over a human bomber because of the AI's usage of Death Nova, and maybe Dwayna's Sorrow.

Quote:

I dislike such people who try to convince others that certain things are impossible, that human necros shouldn't strive to better themselves and their builds and should instead just be a boring minion master who hits 1-2-3-sometimes 4 which requires barely more intelligence then an ursan. The only minion build I would even consider using is a Minion Bomber. And I didn't say it was impossible.

I don't know, maybe it's the fact I prefer to configure my keyboard and mouse settings so it's easier to use. I just see heroes use Death Nova better than any human put in that position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Those need [[fire attunement]. No you.

Well on the second build I suggest removing either one of the non-elite Heat skills or Ancestor's.