Mesmer + Heroes

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

I have been playing my Mesmer lately and I am finding a hard to time to synergize with my heroes now that I am not a paragon.
Does anyone have a good team build or tips for mesmer + heroes?

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

make a new character. thats my tip. you wont be nearly as effective as a mesmer, you can play some fun gimmicks though! maybe you can even pretend to be an ele.

jiggles

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

N/

lotus, are you an idiot? mesmers are imo the second best class in the game.

i posted just to say that, for heroes i really have no idea

Life in vain

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2007

Life in vain

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
make a new character. thats my tip. you wont be nearly as effective as a mesmer, you can play some fun gimmicks though! maybe you can even pretend to be an ele.
I lol'd irl when you basicly said paragon effectiveness>mesmer

dilan155

dilan155

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

living room

N/

as a mesmser you have a lot of doors open, however make sure to focus on one area instead of all areas. there is a assassin's promise mesmer floating around, not sure of the build however and due to how fast mobs die in PvE it would be very effective. gl to you and dont be put off by ppl who are too retarded to play mesmer as this is one of the only professions that require skills to play other being monk though it is being replaced by a new trend of HB monks

toastgodsupreme

toastgodsupreme

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

United States

Me/

SoI lets you do a lot of stuff.

Honestly though, when I'm on my mesmer, I play as a fast casting curses mesmer with Cry of Pain and Necrosis as my damage (shrinking armor to trigger CoP).

That, with the sabway set up (the curses necro modified so that he doesn't share any curse skills with me), nothing lives for long.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

mesmers are a PvP class. sorry if that offends anyone, but its true. the only thing mesmer primaries can do better than any other class is play silly PvE skill gimmicks with Signet of illusions.

not derailing this any further.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
mesmers are a PvP class. sorry if that offends anyone, but its true. the only thing mesmer primaries can do better than any other class is play silly PvE skill gimmicks with Signet of illusions.

not derailing this any further. You dont have to use SoI to be effective. My mesmer is doing quite well in HM with an [[Assassin's Promise] build:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...99#post3857022

Currently using this 3-hero build:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=225

..with Mhenlo, Lina, Herta, and Zho. I choose to use that hero combination because of the damage the build generates. An AP build needs to be able to kill, at least single targets, FAST in HM.

luminoire

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

running domination, you can make good use of [Assassin's Promise] with damage skills like [Unnatural Signet], [Energy Burn] and [Power Spike], as well as [Wastrel's Demise] and [Overload] depending on how much of an opportunist you are.

illusion line runs [Clumsiness], [Wandering Eye] and [Ineptitude], the earlier two skills along with domination skills like [Shame], [Guilt] and [Mistrust] combo well with [Frustration].

this assumes you have no kurzick/luxon/sunspear ranks to boost effectiveness of [Cry of Frustration].
or [Ether Nightmare] + [Signet of Corruption] for free dmg and additional energy management.

for any spell line you're running, i recommend taking [Auspicious Incantation] or [Power Drain] along, even with a few points into inspiration they go pretty far for energy management.

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

May I ask how that synergizes with heroes?
Also for the build in the above posts; How does assassin's promise recharge?

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
May I ask how that synergizes with heroes?
Also for the build in the above posts; How does assassin's promise recharge? AP recharges itself along with your other skills if you can get your heroes to kill the target within the time limit.

A11Eur0

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

W/

assassin's promise recharges itself if you kill the enemy in time.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Truth is, the better player is, the better Mesmer is. So bad people think Mesmer is the worst class in PvE.

Quote:
May I ask how that synergizes with heroes? Just run Sabway/Racthway. Sabway has a bit bigger DPS thanks to minions + Barbs, so you won't have to worry about your AP running out before you kill something.

Kyomi Tachibana

Kyomi Tachibana

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2007

Oregon, USA

Where iz teh Bonuz [WitB]

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
mesmers are a PvP class. sorry if that offends anyone, but its true. the only thing mesmer primaries can do better than any other class is play silly PvE skill gimmicks with Signet of illusions.

not derailing this any further. People like you are the reason I don't pug with my mesmer.

Anywho, back on track, finding a combination of heroes that go well with a mesmer can be rather difficult, depending on whether you want to do HM or NM stuff especially.

A fun hero team I used on my mesmer for awhile was the 'mandragor' type team build.

You - Illusion - Fevered Dreams + YMLaD + Enfeeble
Ranger Hero - BHA + Poison Tip Signet + Volley.
Elementalist Hero - Bsurge or Dual Attune Bflash
Optional hero - With Blind, Weakness, Cripple, Poison, Daze and maybe Cracked Armor from the air ele, this slot is largely optional, you can run another conditioner, paragons are nice, if you want Deep Wound you can slap Accumulated Pain or Finish Him! on your bar, an MM is always a welcome addition, Death Novas and aid in interrupting multiple targets through Daze. A Dervish could be possible as well, with Wounding Strike, as well as striking multiple opponents.

You could also run a hex heavy team, heroes aren't good at placing hexes in the first place, but I find they are good at not overlapping hexes unless it's duration is almost up. At least it's what I observed with three heroes using Putrid Bile, they spread it around on near recharge to as many opponents as possible.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life in vain
I lol'd irl when you basicly said paragon effectiveness>mesmer
I lol-ed at your lol-ing.
Quote: Originally Posted by Abedeus Truth is, the better player is, the better Mesmer is. That's true for any class.
Quote: You dont need to use all 3 PvE skills. Most of the time, I only need 1 or 2. That said, if you can make your build more powerful with 3 then feel free to use 3, but having 3 PvE skills doesn't always imply a better skill bar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
So bad people think Mesmer is the worst class in PvE. The problem is that it's not even close to the best ones.


Pretty much what you want to do is:
3 PvE skills.
Assassin's Promise.
Domination or Illusion nukes. (Keep in mind that things like Shatter Ench or Shatter Hex can be considered nukes - next to the usual Spiritual Pain, E-Burn, Unnatural Signet.)

Sabway works very nicely.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
3 PvE skills.
Sabway works very nicely. Sabway is ok as a generic 3-hero build but it can usually be optimized to kill faster.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
Sabway has a bit bigger DPS thanks to minions + Barbs, so you won't have to worry about your AP running out before you kill something.
That setup is horrible for strong direct damage. When you run AP, you should be using heroes that can go "hey guy, you die now". Minions don't care who you target, and SS nec sucks for single-target damage.

My Mes runs somethin very similar to what my Nec does. AP combined with PvE skills and 3 Discord heroes so you're pretty much guaranteed to get the kill everytime. AP + Cry of Pain can do huge aoe damage.

As much as I'd like to use my mes often in pve, I really don't find them too attractive without PvE skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
You dont need to use all 3 PvE skills. Most of the time, I only need 1 or 2. That said, if you can make your build more powerful with 3 then feel free to use 3, but having 3 PvE skills doesn't always imply a better skill bar. 3 PvE skills arn't need, but definitely can help alot. The reason they're so good for Mesmers is because many of their effects and damage is unconditional. Two big reasons why Mes skills arn't suitable for PvE is because some are too conditional, and often have long recharges. AP + PvE skills solves both of those problems. Still though, I honestly think mesmers can use a few buffs in pve...

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
3 PvE skills arn't need, but definitely can help alot. The reason they're so good for Mesmers is because many of their effects and damage is unconditional. Two big reasons why Mes skills arn't suitable for PvE is because some are too conditional, and often have long recharges. AP + PvE skills solves both of those problems. Still though, I honestly think mesmers can use a few buffs in pve... That is over generalizing. For example, is [[Finish Him!] conditional or not? The 50%hp would be a condition.

How about [[Pain Inverter]? That doesn't work much against monsters with degen hexes. How about [[Cry of Pain]? A condition for the huge AoE damage is mesmer hex.

PvE skills can be conditional too. Skill bars with 3 PvE skills doesn't necessarily imply a better build than skill bars with 2 PvE skills. The design of the skill bar is more important.

Wyat Hawke

Wyat Hawke

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Gameamp Guides (AMP)

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
That is over generalizing. For example, is [[Finish Him!] conditional or not? How about [[Pain Inverter] compared to [[Empathy]? You don't get it do you?

TO the OP, do as Upier said.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyat Hawke
You don't get it do you?

TO the OP, do as Upier said. No you dont get it do you? PvE skills can be conditional, learn to read skill descriptions. [[Finish Him!] DOES have a 50%hp condition, otherwise try wasting it on a fully healed monster.

Learn to read before flamming next time.

isamu kurosawa

isamu kurosawa

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

United Kingdom

Me/

This is something i posted in the treat titled 'A "Good" PvE Mesmer Build - A Bounty of Sorts'. There are a few decent builds posted there so you should check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
I just completed almost every dungeon in HM with h/h on my mesmer using a supplementary build to fuel 3 discord spikers. Here it is if anyone is interested.

[build prof=me/n fast=12+1 illusion=12+1+1 curses=3][fragility][power return][necrosis][you move like a dwarf][shared burden][weaken armor][illusion of pain][signet of corruption][/build]

Usage is pretty simple, Its your job to make sure foes are hexed and suffering a condition at all times while assisting the spike with necrosis. You can also use [[you move like a dwarf] as an interrupt if needed.
Shared burden, althoguh normally not a very good elite shines in this setup as its a cheap AoE hex that lasts a very long time while keeping foes snared. Weaken armour is there are a cheap AoE condition.

Here are the hero builds.

[build prof=n/mo death=12+1+1 healing=9 soul=8+1 curses=5][discord][enfeebling blood][animate shambling horror][death nova][malign intervention][rip enchantment][veratas gaze][dwaynas sorrow][/build]

[build prof=n/mo death=12+1+1 prot=9 soul=9+1][discord][animate shambling horror][blood of the master][death nova][veratas aura][resurrection signet][aegis][protective spirit][/build]

[build prof=n/rt death=12+1+1 soul=8+1 restoration=12][discord][mend body and soul][spirit light][vengeful weapon][life][foul feast][protective was kaolai][flesh of my flesh][/build]

Res options can be changed around of course, as can the build concepts. This setup offers a large army of minions in no time at all, great support and healing, enchant removal, backup hex+condition and even more damage with death nova.

Heroes are amazing at using discord now. if you use [[fragility] & [[you move like a dwarf] on a single target they will proceed to spike it in unison.
You can also increase their effectiveness by binding their discord to your keyboard. (gaming keyboards make it even better.)

The skillbars look a litlle cluttered but make full useage of a heroes strengths while being free from their weaknesses. The dungeons i did compelete with this setup where a breeze. It seems spike realy does work in PvE, especially when you can spike down a foe every 2 seconds.

|pyro|

|pyro|

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
I have been playing my Mesmer lately and I am finding a hard to time to synergize with my heroes now that I am not a paragon.
Does anyone have a good team build or tips for mesmer + heroes?
[build box name="Ogden" prof=Mo/A heal=12+2+1 div=12 prot=3][Ethereal Light][Dwayna's Kiss][orison of Healing][Healing Touch][Healing Seed][Cure Hex][Healer's Boon][Resurrection Chant][/build] General healing build, works ok for my standards.


[build box name="Olias" prof=Ne/A blood=12+2+1 soul=11+1][Well of Power][Shadow Strike][Lifebane Strike][Vampiric Gaze][Life Siphon][Well of Blood][Blood Ritual][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]The necro build, more the role of a supporter but also some damage. WoP provides a nice bonus. Energy should not be a problem anymore. If there are no cropses I use the general SS build.


[build box name="Minon Master" prof=ne/Mo dead=11+3+1 soul=9+1 prot=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Extinguish][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Resurrection Chant][/build] The Minion Master, creating hordes of little monsters + offers protection with protection prayers skills.


During high paced battles the necros don't contradict each other, and can generaly coexist quite well, if you think that the Blood Necro is using all your corpses take [Soul Leech] insted or just mico manage WoP.


I usualy run this and its more supited against casters, some skills may vary from location to location used.
[build box name="Little Hex" prof=Me/A fast=9+1 dom=12+1+2 deadly=12 asura=9][Assassin's Promise][Cry of Pain][power spike][Guilt][Empathy][Backfire][pain inverter][resurrection signet][/build]

I usualy use this against melee mobs but casters wand constantly when not attacting so it takes them down too. energy is not a problem, deep wound/blind and other condition spread is also a good support for the team.
[build box name="Little Hex" prof=Me/Mo fast=9+1 ill=12+1+2 inspiration=10+1][Power Drain][Ineptitude][Phantom Pain][Drain Delusions][Epidemic][Wandering eye][Clumsiness][Rebirth][/build]

depending on the mobs you will be fighting and your build you can tswitcha skill or 2 for one of the following[Shatter Hex][Inspired Hex] or [Shatter Enchantment][Drain Enchantment].

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
That is over generalizing. For example, is [[Finish Him!] conditional or not? The 50%hp would be a condition.

How about [[Pain Inverter]? That doesn't work much against monsters with degen hexes. How about [[Cry of Pain]? A condition for the huge AoE damage is mesmer hex.

PvE skills can be conditional too. Skill bars with 3 PvE skills doesn't necessarily imply a better build than skill bars with 2 PvE skills. The design of the skill bar is more important.

You took it way too literally. And I honestly hardly consider the "50%" thing on "Finish Him" a condition cause it's so damn easy to meet. Compare a mesmer's direct damage to that and you'll see that they're often more conditional. In fact, they hardly have any direct damage at all, which is the point I'm trying to make.

I just really can't see myself playing a Mes without pve skills, because then a majority of your arsenal is shutdown skills that are sometimes not needed in PvE.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
You took it way too literally. And I honestly hardly consider the "50%" thing on "Finish Him" a condition cause it's so damn easy to meet. Compare a mesmer's direct damage to that and you'll see that they're often more conditional. In fact, they hardly have any direct damage at all, which is the point I'm trying to make.

I just really can't see myself playing a Mes without pve skills, because then a majority of your arsenal is shutdown skills that are sometimes not needed in PvE. Mesmers already have good damage skills, like [[Wandering Eye], [[Clumsiness], [[Mistrust], [[Spiritual Pain], etc. But mesmers also have nice PvE skills like [[Cry of Pain], which is almost too good not to bring along, and [[Ether Nightmare]. The EOTN PvE skills are the same for all classes.

The problem with PvE mesmers is not because their skills are conditional, because many of their conditions are easily met anyway. But many of the mesmer's skills are indirectly nerfed in PvE. For an example, monsters have an extra +1 energy regen and a larger energy pull, so energy denial skills become less effective when used against monsters, compared to when these skills are used in PvP.

Having played a mesmer since Prophecies, I have been clearing campaigns before PvE skills were even invented. PvE skills are not necessary for a mesmer in PvE, but they certainly help.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
You dont need to use all 3 PvE skills. Most of the time, I only need 1 or 2. That said, if you can make your build more powerful with 3 then feel free to use 3, but having 3 PvE skills doesn't always imply a better skill bar.
Because of how insanely overpowered PvE skills are - you'd want to build your bar around the 3 PvE skills, rather then (possibly) adding PvE skills to your pre-existing build.
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkSpirit Sabway is ok as a generic 3-hero build but it can usually be optimized to kill faster. Optimization is based on the full party.
That is why a generic build that works (yet it CAN be improved!) is one of the best options to be listed here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Mesmers already have good damage skills, like [[Wandering Eye], [[Clumsiness], [[Mistrust], [[Spiritual Pain], etc. But mesmers also have nice PvE skills like [[Cry of Pain], which is almost too good not to bring along, and [[Ether Nightmare]. The EOTN PvE skills are the same for all classes.

Having played a mesmer since Prophecies, I have been clearing campaigns before PvE skills were even invented. PvE skills are not necessary for a mesmer in PvE, but they certainly help. PvE leaves room for error.
And leaving out godly skills because they "aren't necessary" constitutes that error.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
Because of how insanely overpowered PvE skills are - you'd want to build your bar around the 3 PvE skills, rather then (possibly) adding PvE skills to your pre-existing build. Your argument has an underlying assumption that all PvE skills are useful in all builds. If that were the case, before the 3-PvE skills limit that came out with EOTN release, why didnt every skill bar bring 4 PvE skills for the primary and secondary class before then?

What I am saying is, if bringing 3 would give you the best possible build then go ahead and bring 3. But you shouldn't be trying to FORCE 3 PvE skills into every build just because you think 2 is always sub-optimal.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Your argument has an underlying assumption that all PvE skills are useful in all builds. If that were the case, before the 3-PvE skills limit that came out with EOTN release, why didnt every skill bar bring 4 PvE skills for the primary and secondary class before then?

What I am saying is, if bringing 3 would give you the best possible build then go ahead and bring 3. But you shouldn't be trying to FORCE 3 PvE skills into every build just because you think 2 is always sub-optimal. You are saying is that the mesmer has godly PvE builds that include less then 3 PvE skills and could NOT be improved by using 3 PvE skills? And that those builds are better then other builds that do run 3 PvE skills?
What builds would that be?

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
You are saying is that the mesmer has godly PvE builds that include less then 3 PvE skills and could NOT be improved by using 3 PvE skills? And that those builds are better then other builds that do run 3 PvE skills?
What builds would that be? If a build with more PvE skills are always better than one with fewer PvE skills, are you saying if the 3-PvE skills limit is removed your mesmer would ALWAYS have 8 PvE skills on her bar? If that is the case then you might as well not play a mesmer because what makes a mesmer unique would be almost totally gone when that happens.

There was a long period of time when we can have 4 PvE skills per skill bar, yet most popular builds at that time, dont even have close to that many.

Even though PvE skills are powerful, they dont cover all build situations completely. There are still alot more non-PvE skills than PvE skills in this game, many non-PvE skills have useful effects that cant even be replicated by any PvE skills so it doesn't mean more PvE skills would always win.

kostolomac

kostolomac

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

Serbia

Me/

For heroes in NM i mostly use a N/Rt healer , MM and a SF hero. I replace the SF hero with SS curses necro in HM.
My favorite builds for mesmers are these:
1. [Echo dom+cop;OQNCAswkGgLw0zMgNIa0FgSA] overall shutdown , +2+1 to dom , +1 to insp and fc
2. [AP pve;OQdTAQB7VaByA0GcDw0BnCuUAAA] my AP nuke build , sometimes I put the ebon assassin for fun , same runes
The first one is my favorite , I don't use it much in HM , but it's very effective in dungeons.
The AP build isn't the most effective , but I like it , it gets the job done and it's fun.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Mesmers already have good damage skills, like [[Wandering Eye], [[Clumsiness], [[Mistrust], [[Spiritual Pain], etc. But mesmers also have nice PvE skills like [[Cry of Pain], which is almost too good not to bring along, and [[Ether Nightmare]. The EOTN PvE skills are the same for all classes.
Wandering Eye is good. Clumsiness is decent, adjacent range is pretty small. The damage on Mistrust isn't that great. Spiritual Pain sucks after the nerf. Cry of Pain is a PvE skill. Degen is always bad in PvE, especially when it takes up a pve-skill slot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit The problem with PvE mesmers is not because their skills are conditional, because many of their conditions are easily met anyway. But many of the mesmer's skills are indirectly nerfed in PvE. For an example, monsters have an extra +1 energy regen and a larger energy pull, so energy denial skills become less effective when used against monsters, compared to when these skills are used in PvP. Even without extra energy, E-denial would be useless in PvE. In PvP, you have to get through many layers of defense to score a kill. E-denial helps get through those layers. That kind of defense doesn't exist in PvE so it's alot faster and easier to just blow your way through. That's where Mesmers become less attractive than other classes in PvE.

Many Mes skills have potential to be great in PvE, but all they need is a few tweaks. Backfire is a good basic one to start with - lower cost to 10e, shorten the recharge, lower the casttime....then you have a good skill that could be a staple for Dom mesmers. Anet needs to take advantage of the PvE/PvP split. The skills you listed are some that have potential to be good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Having played a mesmer since Prophecies, I have been clearing campaigns before PvE skills were even invented. PvE skills are not necessary for a mesmer in PvE, but they certainly help There's plenty of horrible builds out there that have been known to get very very far into the game.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
If a build with more PvE skills are always better than one with fewer PvE skills, are you saying if the 3-PvE skills limit is removed your mesmer would ALWAYS have 8 PvE skills on her bar? If that is the case then you might as well not play a mesmer because what makes a mesmer unique would be almost totally gone when that happens.
What makes the mesmer unique doesn't work in PvE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
There was a long period of time when we can have 4 PvE skills per skill bar, yet most popular builds at that time, dont even have close to that many.
Even though PvE skills are powerful, they dont cover all build situations completely. There are still alot more non-PvE skills than PvE skills in this game, many non-PvE skills have useful effects that cant even be replicated by any PvE skills so it doesn't mean more PvE skills would always win. Two problems:
1. although PvE skills are overpowered - that doesn't mean that they can not be shitty. BUT there are more then 3 VERY good PvE only skills at this point in time.
2. mesmer skills. The mesmer just lacks GOOD skills that "have useful effects that cant even be replicated by any PvE skills". (Which is the biggest problem. You have effects that are insanely sweet - but it's because of that effect that the skill attributes (casting time, cost, recharge) have to be toned down - and then we are left with such crap as [ineptitude].)
That is NOT true for all classes. The mesmer though - being build from ground up for PvP - does suffer from that.

kostolomac

kostolomac

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

Serbia

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
What makes the mesmer unique doesn't work in PvE.

You have effects that are insanely sweet - but it's because of that effect that the skill attributes (casting time, cost, recharge) have to be toned down - and then we are left with such crap as [ineptitude].) In EotN in does to some extent ,thats why I like EotN.
The problem with [Ineptitude] , [Wandering Eye] and [Clumsiness] are the durations , recharge and in the case of [Clumsiness] energy cost , 10e for a skill that is worse than wandering eye is just stupid.

isamu kurosawa

isamu kurosawa

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

United Kingdom

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostolomac
In EotN in does to some extent ,thats why I like EotN.
The problem with [Ineptitude] , [Wandering Eye] and [Clumsiness] are the durations , recharge and in the case of [Clumsiness] energy cost , 10e for a skill that is worse than wandering eye is just stupid. [[wandering eye] and even more so [[clumsiness] are great skills in pve. If [[ineptitude] got the same treatment then it too would be very useful in pve.

the last skill changes to clumsiness and wandering eye where a great example of skill balancing for mesmer. a nerf in pvp yet a puff in pve to keep the profession balanced in both modes.
Its just a shame we don't see more updates like that.

cosyfiep

cosyfiep

are we there yet?

Join Date: Dec 2005

in a land far far away

guild? I am supposed to have a guild?

Rt/

I have 3 mesmers (and I NEVER pvp)....
my domination mesmer has ranger as a secondary so she does mostly interupting (has empathy for the melee mobs, guilt/shame for the casters...and interupts).
my illusionist uses conjure, ineptitude, and clumsiness (and changes the others depending on the area).

I use for my heroes : dunky, sosuke, and olias....for henchies a monk, melee and 2 tba depending on the area again.

I have never had a problem not being 'synergized' with my heroes---

so it all really depends on the area/mobs and such....

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
2. mesmer skills. The mesmer just lacks GOOD skills that "have useful effects that cant even be replicated by any PvE skills". (Which is the biggest problem. You have effects that are insanely sweet - but it's because of that effect that the skill attributes (casting time, cost, recharge) have to be toned down - and then we are left with such crap as [ineptitude].)
That is NOT true for all classes. The mesmer though - being build from ground up for PvP - does suffer from that. Yes the skill attributes are toned down but that doesn't always mean they are unusable. Take [[Cry of Frustration] for example. It is nice for its AoE interrupt and damage and there are no PvE-only skills with that useful effect. Naturally, ANet would not make it spammable, but you can add [[Mantra of Recovery] and bring its recharge down to a decent 10s.

Look at energy management skills for the mesmer, there are not that many good energy management skills in the world of PvE-only skills.

It is still not that easy to blow through some bosses in HM, this is when ANet can help the mesmer's energy denial skills (with the PvE/PvP split) to make them really awesome in PvE HM. Currently, they have indirectly nerfed PvE mesmers by granting monsters extra energy regen and energy pool. If ANet would do a good job for the mesmers with the PvE/PvP split, there would be less need to rely on PvE-only skills.

Back to the question of heroes, I use an adapted sabway variant for my AP necro, which can also be adapted to AP mesmers:

[minion bomber MM;OANDUshtSLVVBoBLCJgKgGNVVA]
[blood stained damage MM;OANDUslfSLVUBHVKgKCVV1DBEA]
[sab curse necro;OAhkYgHcoIqUegdQZwuDjIGTVVyF]

This is a dual MM build with the high level minions MM, as the only MM, having a blood stained insignia, so he takes precedence. When his energy level is low or his minion skills are in recharge is when the low level minion bomber MM has the chance to exploit the corpses. His energy level is also fueled by the minion bomber. Fiends damage is boosted further by the curse necro. Obviously this build only works well in places with enough exploitable corpses. The healing is also good enough that I only need to bring Mhenlo along as the only healer and they kill very quickly in HM with many minions attacking a target hexed with barbs.

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
I have been playing my Mesmer lately and I am finding a hard to time to synergize with my heroes now that I am not a paragon.
Does anyone have a good team build or tips for mesmer + heroes? http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10293264

See section 6. I love those kind of builds, and with a human mesmer it makes them easier I feel...simply call who you're casting [[Fevered Dreams] on and the heroes will lay down the conditions.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Yes the skill attributes are toned down but that doesn't always mean they are unusable. Take [Cry of Frustration] for example. It is nice for its AoE interrupt and damage and there are no PvE-only skills with that useful effect. Naturally, ANet would not make it spammable, but you can add [[Mantra of Recovery] and bring its recharge down to a decent 10s.
Yes, CoF is nice - but is it CoP nice?
Do we see AEcho/Echo CoF spammage?
CoF is useful - just not worth it.
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkSpirit Look at energy management skills for the mesmer, there are not that many good energy management skills in the world of PvE-only skills. My ritualist uses no e-management skills (outside of AP) and he manages just fine. Same thing with my mesmer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
It is still not that easy to blow through some bosses in HM, this is when ANet can help the mesmer's energy denial skills (with the PvE/PvP split) to make them really awesome in PvE HM. Currently, they have indirectly nerfed PvE mesmers by granting monsters extra energy regen and energy pool. If ANet would do a good job for the mesmers with the PvE/PvP split, there would be less need to rely on PvE-only skills. E-denial isn't useless because foes have additional regen.
It's useless because the foes do not live long enough to feel the pain of having no energy.
E-denial would be worth it if we'd have skills that would cause foes (AoE!) to lose 50+ energy with one skill.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
Yes, CoF is nice - but is it CoP nice?
Do we see AEcho/Echo CoF spammage?
CoF is useful - just not worth it.
Comparing CoF and CoP are like comparing apples and oranges. People take CoF for its AoE interrupt while people take CoP mainly for its AoE damage.

Quote:
My ritualist uses no e-management skills (outside of AP) and he manages just fine. Same thing with my mesmer. Perhaps, but heroes are not like human players, they are worse off when it comes to energy discipline and they tend to spam their skills. AP builds also depends on the rest of the team configuration and the area.

Quote:
E-denial isn't useless because foes have additional regen.
It's useless because the foes do not live long enough to feel the pain of having no energy.
E-denial would be worth it if we'd have skills that would cause foes (AoE!) to lose 50+ energy with one skill. Even if the foes live long enough, the extra energy regen would make it more difficult for your e-denial skills. Remember, currently the mesmer's e-denial skills are balanced against PvP scenarios. If they provide one e-denial skill to take away 50+e from AoE enemies, it would not be balanced for PvP. This means PvE mesmers have to be held back as long as their skills are linked to PvP.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Comparing CoF and CoP are like comparing apples and oranges. People take CoF for its AoE interrupt while people take CoP mainly for its AoE damage.
But is the AoE interrupt effect of CoF good so good that people would consider AEcho/Echo-ing it?
That's the issue.
It might be good - but it's not worth it.
So the good issue that can not be achieved with PvE only skills - despite it being nice - is obsolete. Hence why I strongly suggest using 3 PvE only skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit Perhaps, but heroes are not like human players, they are worse off when it comes to energy discipline and they tend to spam their skills. AP builds also depends on the rest of the team configuration and the area. Yeah, they are even worse at inspiration e-management.
[Power drain] anyone?

So there aren't many e-management options among PvE skills. The point was that ... you kinda don't need them.
Once again - it's not bad - just obsolete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Even if the foes live long enough, the extra energy regen would make it more difficult for your e-denial skills. Remember, currently the mesmer's e-denial skills are balanced against PvP scenarios. If they provide one e-denial skill to take away 50+e from AoE enemies, it would not be balanced for PvP. This means PvE mesmers have to be held back as long as their skills are linked to PvP. I never said it would be a PvP skill.
It would be a PvE only skill - foes would still die in 3ish secs - it's just that this time they would die without having any energy.
It wouldn't make the slightest difference - it would just be e-denial "balanced" for PvE mobs.

Ohh and your bolded part is important.
Once again - that is why 3 PvE only skills are good.

Swamp Fox

Swamp Fox

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

Noneyaville

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

Me/

for my mesmer i use an AP mes with finish him(Max Norn) and fragility(15 illusion), when a monster(any monster) hit 50% health you have a 120 damage+deepwound and cracked armor spike, equals good game time to spam on the next monster

oh yea and as for heroes, i filled my HM handbook completely using H/H, with my prot nec, Jagged MM, and WoH hybrid hero