Best way I could ask that is there.
Has anything changed with Livia, Whispers and Olias 3-Nec build? Like is there maybe a better way of going about using them in capturing skills, vanquishing, skill titles such as Asura, etc.etc.?
Let me know if you don't mind, I'm getting back into this game after six months and I'm completely lost on all levels...
Hero Necs - It used to be just the 3
Neriandal Freit
DarkSpirit
I found a better way of using them by modifying sab's build. I used the following heroes build for my Assassin Promise necro, that seems to kill faster and safer than sabway providing more soul reaping energy at the same time.
[minion bomber MM;OANDUshtSLVVBoBLCJgKgGNVVA]
[blood stained damage MM;OANDUslfSLVUBHVKgKCVV1DBEA]
[sab curse necro;OAhkYgHcoIqUegdQZwuDjIGTVVyF]
This is a dual MM build with the high level minions MM, as the only MM, having a blood stained insignia, so he takes precedence. When his energy level is low or his minion skills are in recharge is when the low level minion bomber MM has the chance to exploit the corpses. His energy level is also fueled by the minion bomber. Fiends damage is boosted further by the curse necro. Obviously this build only works well in places with enough exploitable corpses. The healing is also good enough that I only need to bring Mhenlo along as the only healer and they kill very quickly in HM with many minions attacking a target hexed with barbs.
[minion bomber MM;OANDUshtSLVVBoBLCJgKgGNVVA]
[blood stained damage MM;OANDUslfSLVUBHVKgKCVV1DBEA]
[sab curse necro;OAhkYgHcoIqUegdQZwuDjIGTVVyF]
This is a dual MM build with the high level minions MM, as the only MM, having a blood stained insignia, so he takes precedence. When his energy level is low or his minion skills are in recharge is when the low level minion bomber MM has the chance to exploit the corpses. His energy level is also fueled by the minion bomber. Fiends damage is boosted further by the curse necro. Obviously this build only works well in places with enough exploitable corpses. The healing is also good enough that I only need to bring Mhenlo along as the only healer and they kill very quickly in HM with many minions attacking a target hexed with barbs.
Calista Blackblood
[shock] you have [animate bone fiend] erm ok
Johny bravo
I run 3 necros but did the following
Changed the curses necro build to be
SS, IP, Mantra of inscriptions, 4 mesmer sigs (interupts, sig of humility), rip enchant or enfeebling blood depending on area. Good for e-managament as he can cast SS and IP on recharge.
Lose Death Pact on N/RT in explorable areas or dungeons where party wipe isn't a loss and replace with Weapon of warding. Is great to dump on someone who is getting whacked on by melee.
On the Bomber I find that SoA can be great in the right situations (area dependent)
I also found that with the minion energy factory SoLS is pretty much not needed
Changed the curses necro build to be
SS, IP, Mantra of inscriptions, 4 mesmer sigs (interupts, sig of humility), rip enchant or enfeebling blood depending on area. Good for e-managament as he can cast SS and IP on recharge.
Lose Death Pact on N/RT in explorable areas or dungeons where party wipe isn't a loss and replace with Weapon of warding. Is great to dump on someone who is getting whacked on by melee.
On the Bomber I find that SoA can be great in the right situations (area dependent)
I also found that with the minion energy factory SoLS is pretty much not needed
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neriandal Freit
Best way I could ask that is there.
Has anything changed with Livia, Whispers and Olias 3-Nec build? Like is there maybe a better way of going about using them in capturing skills, vanquishing, skill titles such as Asura, etc.etc.?
Let me know if you don't mind, I'm getting back into this game after six months and I'm completely lost on all levels... Two skill changes have created possibilities for significant changes to the builds themselves:
1. Foul Feast now provides insanely effective condition removal, especially when placed on the minion bomber along with infuse condition.
2. The AI now uses Dwayna's sorrow correctly on minions, which provides a very strong constant party heal.
The upshot of these changes is:
1. The minion bomber bar gets awfully crowded, and it becomes very tempting to find a new home for the prot (which, contrary to astoundingly common idiotic belief, does not need to go on the MB).
2. The N/Rt healer becomes dramatically less important. With condition removal and party healing covered elsewhere, the N/Rt's only non-redundant role is spot healing, something that no longer requires it to be a N/Rt. You can keep the N/Rt, possibly changing its build into less redundant territory; You can replace it with a N/Mo and relocate the prot onto its bar; Or you can scrap the idea of a necro healer altogether and use another offensive necro build (or a monk hero for 4-man zones) in this position.
Has anything changed with Livia, Whispers and Olias 3-Nec build? Like is there maybe a better way of going about using them in capturing skills, vanquishing, skill titles such as Asura, etc.etc.?
Let me know if you don't mind, I'm getting back into this game after six months and I'm completely lost on all levels... Two skill changes have created possibilities for significant changes to the builds themselves:
1. Foul Feast now provides insanely effective condition removal, especially when placed on the minion bomber along with infuse condition.
2. The AI now uses Dwayna's sorrow correctly on minions, which provides a very strong constant party heal.
The upshot of these changes is:
1. The minion bomber bar gets awfully crowded, and it becomes very tempting to find a new home for the prot (which, contrary to astoundingly common idiotic belief, does not need to go on the MB).
2. The N/Rt healer becomes dramatically less important. With condition removal and party healing covered elsewhere, the N/Rt's only non-redundant role is spot healing, something that no longer requires it to be a N/Rt. You can keep the N/Rt, possibly changing its build into less redundant territory; You can replace it with a N/Mo and relocate the prot onto its bar; Or you can scrap the idea of a necro healer altogether and use another offensive necro build (or a monk hero for 4-man zones) in this position.
Neriandal Freit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
Two skill changes have created possibilities for significant changes to the builds themselves:
1. Foul Feast now provides insanely effective condition removal, especially when placed on the minion bomber along with infuse condition.
2. The AI now uses Dwayna's sorrow correctly on minions, which provides a very strong constant party heal.
The upshot of these changes is:
1. The minion bomber bar gets awfully crowded, and it becomes very tempting to find a new home for the prot (which, contrary to astoundingly common idiotic belief, does not need to go on the MB).
2. The N/Rt healer becomes dramatically less important. With condition removal and party healing covered elsewhere, the N/Rt's only non-redundant role is spot healing, something that no longer requires it to be a N/Rt. You can keep the N/Rt, possibly changing its build into less redundant territory; You can replace it with a N/Mo and relocate the prot onto its bar; Or you can scrap the idea of a necro healer altogether and use another offensive necro build (or a monk hero for 4-man zones) in this position. Well, due to my lack of up-to-date skill knowledge, could you post a build of the three Necs?
1. Foul Feast now provides insanely effective condition removal, especially when placed on the minion bomber along with infuse condition.
2. The AI now uses Dwayna's sorrow correctly on minions, which provides a very strong constant party heal.
The upshot of these changes is:
1. The minion bomber bar gets awfully crowded, and it becomes very tempting to find a new home for the prot (which, contrary to astoundingly common idiotic belief, does not need to go on the MB).
2. The N/Rt healer becomes dramatically less important. With condition removal and party healing covered elsewhere, the N/Rt's only non-redundant role is spot healing, something that no longer requires it to be a N/Rt. You can keep the N/Rt, possibly changing its build into less redundant territory; You can replace it with a N/Mo and relocate the prot onto its bar; Or you can scrap the idea of a necro healer altogether and use another offensive necro build (or a monk hero for 4-man zones) in this position. Well, due to my lack of up-to-date skill knowledge, could you post a build of the three Necs?
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
2. The N/Rt healer becomes dramatically less important. With condition removal and party healing covered elsewhere, the N/Rt's only non-redundant role is spot healing, something that no longer requires it to be a N/Rt. You can keep the N/Rt, possibly changing its build into less redundant territory; You can replace it with a N/Mo and relocate the prot onto its bar; Or you can scrap the idea of a necro healer altogether and use another offensive necro build (or a monk hero for 4-man zones) in this position.
The bolded part is true. I can almost always increase the damage from sab's build by replacing the healer with another MM.
cellardweller
Losing the the N/Rt also means you're losing the [splinter weapon] and [ancestor's rage] which is a huge part team's of the dps.
Lina does just fine for me - I'd sooner lose the hero based prot spells.
Lina does just fine for me - I'd sooner lose the hero based prot spells.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller
Losing the the N/Rt also means you're losing the [splinter weapon] and [ancestor's rage] which is a huge part team's of the dps.
Lina does just fine for me - I'd sooner lose the hero based prot spells. [[Splinter Weapon] is usually carried by sab's SS curse N/Rt, not the healer N/Rt. As for [[Ancestor's Rage], it doesn't work very well with only 10 to Channeling anyway. But bring it if you intend to use a primary rit with 14 to Channeling. This is why sab left it out of her 3-necros build. Lina's energy management sucks compared to a necro hero who can spam Protective Spirit.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10292641
I basically replaced her healer N/Rt with her MM variant, thus having 2 MMs for greater damage, meat shields, and energy, but still having decent healing in HM with Dwayna's Sorrow. Furthermore, without her variant MM bomber, her main fiend MM doesn't generate enough soul reaping energy as fiends tend to stay in the backlines, instead of exploding with death nova, in the frontlines.
Lina does just fine for me - I'd sooner lose the hero based prot spells. [[Splinter Weapon] is usually carried by sab's SS curse N/Rt, not the healer N/Rt. As for [[Ancestor's Rage], it doesn't work very well with only 10 to Channeling anyway. But bring it if you intend to use a primary rit with 14 to Channeling. This is why sab left it out of her 3-necros build. Lina's energy management sucks compared to a necro hero who can spam Protective Spirit.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10292641
I basically replaced her healer N/Rt with her MM variant, thus having 2 MMs for greater damage, meat shields, and energy, but still having decent healing in HM with Dwayna's Sorrow. Furthermore, without her variant MM bomber, her main fiend MM doesn't generate enough soul reaping energy as fiends tend to stay in the backlines, instead of exploding with death nova, in the frontlines.
Calista Blackblood
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
[[Splinter Weapon] Furthermore, without her variant MM bomber, her main fiend MM doesn't generate enough soul reaping energy as fiends tend to stay in the backlines, instead of exploding with death nova, in the frontlines.
fiends dont go right into battle,making them bad for bombing(theyre the only ranged (approx shortbow range) attacking minions in the game iirc). not to mention their laughable energy cost per 1 minion
cellardweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
[Empathic Removal][barbs][mark of pain][rip enchantment][signet of lost souls][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][spirit bond] ([protective spirit] in factions)
[Jagged Bones][animate bone minions][putrid explosion][putrid bile][foul feast][infuse condition][death nova][dwayna's sorrow]
[reaper's mark][splinter weapon][ancestor's rage][spirit rift][life][protective was Kaolai][mend body and soul][signet of lost souls]
mb&s and spirit bond are specificly required due to mhenlo having [vigorous spirit] which leads to a bodyblocker getting spiked before they can get enough adrenaline for the first ES.
If a hero could use offering of spirit correctly then yes, a rit would be better, util then a 12 spec channel with energy is better than a 14 spec channel without.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Furthermore, without her variant MM bomber, her main fiend MM doesn't generate enough soul reaping energy as fiends tend to stay in the backlines, instead of exploding with death nova, in the frontlines.
This statement makes me think that something is off with your build. The SR timer cap should always be reached by monster deaths before minions are even factored in.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
This statement makes me think that something is off with your build. The SR timer cap should always be reached by monster deaths before minions are even factored in.
The thing is monsters are also not dying fast enough in HM with sab's fiend bombing MM because fiends are too expensive and I have observed the fiend MM to be in single digit energy during most of the battle. Without enough energy, the MM cant create fiends fast enough, during battle, and animate shamblings has too long a recharge to be used as effective bombs.
But since I have coupled the fiend MM with a minion bomber, the team becomes alot stronger since minion bombing has become cheaper through bone minions, and more effective, soul reaping energy also increased significantly across all the necros in the team. Fiends get created alot quicker during battle and the damage multiplied very fast. The damage is definitely greater with a second MM than with a dedicated healer which you wont need, with enough minions to fuel [[Dwayna's Sorrow], more meat shields, more soul reaping energy, and greater damage on your team.
Calista Blackblood
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
more soul reaping energy until i hit my 3x in 15 secs cap, and greater damage on your team.
took the liberty to fix
DarkSpirit
Even 3x in 15s is still > 0x in 15s from a dedicated healer hero.
 Monsters are just not dying fast enough in some of the advanced areas of HM.
cellardweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
The thing is monsters are also not dying fast enough in HM with sab's fiend bombing MM because fiends are too expensive and I have observed the fiend MM to be in single digit energy during most of the battle. Without enough energy, the MM cant create fiends fast enough, during battle, and animate shamblings has too long a recharge to be used as effective bombs.
But why are you using fiends on a bomber in the first place?
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller
But why are you using fiends on a bomber in the first place?
I am not. But the original sabway build has a fiend/shambling MM with Death Nova. Whether you call the MM a bomber or not doesn't matter. What matters more is, the low energy level of the fiend MM during battle, in HM, which affects the rate of fiend production when damage is needed.
Without enough fiends, damage suffers and when damage goes down, monsters do not die fast enough to fuel soul reaping's 3x/15s. So without enough energy, the MM cant make enough fiends, forming a vicious cycle. A minion bomber can break that cycle by creating bone minions, if the fiend MM can't exploit the corpses, causing substantial damage through bombing, even fueling soul reaping in the process. The fiend MM would then be able to start take over corpse exploitation, through his blood stained insignia, by creating fiends when his energy replenishes.
cellardweller
While the original contained a fiend, this is the last one I've seen posted:
Originally Posted by sab
Quote: [build prof=N/Mo death=12+1+3 sou=9+1 hea=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Putrid Bile][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]
Regardless, we're talking about the generic SR synergy 3 necro builds here, not the specific versions posted by sab.
In my experience, fiends are amongst the lowest dps minions - they don't understand that they can't attack around corners and can't be flagged for LoS. This means you have to choose between thier DPS and the Massive DPS increase a corner blocker gives by ensuring that Mark of Pain (an all other adjacent AoE's) hits every enemy. Bloodseeker
Play Discordway with you with assassins promise, owns every area to vanquish, check wiki for details
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller
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That one is now a variant of the MM build. The latest version of the MM has Animate Fiends and Shamblings.
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In my experience, fiends are amongst the lowest dps minions - they don't understand that they can't attack around corners and can't be flagged for LoS. This means you have to choose between thier DPS and the Massive DPS increase a corner blocker gives by ensuring that Mark of Pain (an all other adjacent AoE's) hits every enemy.
Fiends attack with a speed of about 1 attack every 1.9s with a mean damage per attack of 27.5 against an AL60 target. Bone Horrors attack at a speed of 1 attack every 3.17s with a mean damage per attack of 27.5 against an AL60 target. Fiend attacks are stronger over the same length of time, and if you add in [[Barbs] bonus and [[Mark of Pain], they are even more devastating. This is partly why fiends require such high energy cost. Also melee AI has pathing issues especially when fleeing from AoE attacks, and they can be body-blocked from reaching their intended target. Ranged AI is more reliable and switches target faster when needed.
Cebe
Moved to Hero & AI Forum.
Just so ya know, there are many threads in this forum about Necros if you fancy looking any of those out for more info. One of the newer ones: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10292641
cellardweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Fiends attack with a speed of about 1 attack every 1.9s with a mean damage per attack of 27.5 against an AL60 target.
Bone Horrors attack at a speed of 1 attack every 3.17s with a mean damage per attack of 27.5 against an AL60 target. Fiend attacks are stronger over the same length of time, and if you add in [[Barbs] bonus and [[Mark of Pain], they are even more devastating. This is partly why fiends require such high energy cost. Also melee AI has pathing issues especially when fleeing from AoE attacks, and they can be body-blocked from reaching their intended target. Ranged AI is more reliable and switches target faster when needed. Melee AI has issues which make the DPS lower than their potential max, but they don't flee from AoE attacks. You've missed the point. If you want Mark of Pain to hit 5-7 targets every time, which is by far the fastest way to kill any group, you need to cornerblock. In a cornerblocking situation fiends have a DPS of 0 because 100% of their hits will be into a wall.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller
You've missed the point. If you want Mark of Pain to hit 5-7 targets every time, which is by far the fastest way to kill any group, you need to cornerblock. In a cornerblocking situation fiends have a DPS of 0 because 100% of their hits will be into a wall.
What is your MoP target choice? Mine is usually a target that tends to stay close to other monsters and doesn't move much. I usually pick a monk monster or a caster boss. These targets are usually quite resilient because of their higher hp/armor or they heal themselves well. But the longer they stay alive within their group, the longer they can be exploited for MoP damage to surrounding monsters.
Because my target choice tends to be a caster in the middle of a pack, fiends make more sense for hitting them to activate MoP, while my bone minions/shamblings/jagged would help to hold them in. Melee minions have little chance of reaching a well-placed MoP target in the center of a group. When you dont need to exploit them for MoP anymore, just cast [[Barbs] on the target and your fiends would finish them off very quickly. Even though all minions can attack different targets, they tend to take target "suggestions" from their MM, which in turn takes it from your character if he is set to guard. Fiends are like snipers, they are much better in targeting relative to the other minions. If you are a melee character, use a ranged weapon and ctrl-space on the target.
cellardweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
That depends on your MoP target choice. Mine is usually a target that tends to stay close to other monsters and doesn't move much. I usually pick a monk monster or a caster boss. These targets are usually quite resilient because of their higher hp/armor or they heal themselves well. But the longer they stay alive within their group, the longer they can be exploited for MoP damage to surrounding monsters.
Because my target choice tends to be a caster in the middle of a pack, fiends make more sense for hitting them to activate MoP, while my bone minions/shamblings/jagged would help to hold them in. Melee minions have little chance of reaching a well-placed MoP target in the center of a group. No matter how well you chose a target, the dps is going to be insignificant when compared to a blocked enemy where MoP hits every single creature in the group... perhaps a diagram will help you understand the difference.
Nainoa
How do heroes handle weaken armor? I've read some old threads where it says they spammed it on recharge even if the target still had the debuff. I'm guessing this is because it's classified as a spell instead of a hex which the AI seems to be much more proficient with in terms of spreading the hex to multiple targets.
Fuzzy Taco
i hardly ever run fiends on a bomber, but wouldn't flagging the bomber alone to a spot with a clear viewpoint of enemies (even when they're cornerblocked) allow the minions to hit a MoP'd target? it doesn't take much effort, and, considering the minions will follow the bomber around until there's a target, i don't see why it wouldn't work.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller
I assume the dark green spots represent player/heroes/henchies, light green spots represent minions, and red spots represent enemies? If that is the case, your middle diagram is unlikely to happen. This is what should happen if it works correctly against a caster mob. Notice that I never bring melee heroes or henchies but if I use fiends, I always have melee minions for support. Code:
xx
mxxXxxm
mmxxmm
MM
MooM
ooooo
where o = necro player/heroes/henchiesSuper Igor
Modifieng sab's is a tradition wtf are you about? XD
kanuks
I have found out that Sab's necro/rit healer is absolutely outshined by a pure Channelling/Resto Rit. He deals high damage and heals more. 2 advantages for 0 disadvantages is a no-brainer for me.
Nainoa
The point of the Necro primary for the healer hero was for the excellent energy management that no other class can match. Any monk or ritualist primary will not be able to keep churning out heals like a necro in longer fights with a minion master/bomber. If your rit is also using mana for damage I don't see how it could keep mana up unless you're manually casting offering of spirit for him each time. (I've read they don't use it unless they are out of energy). Neither would you be able to pull at the same rapid rate if you have to wait for a monk/rit to regen after each long battle. This is all in theory. I'm a new player so I have very limited HM experience. That just seems like the logical reasoning behind the choice for a N/Rt.
Master Necromanz
Energy management. Rit have not as much energy gain as soul reaping gives the N/Rt... So, Why more damage if you have a MM > SS'er > N/Rt. It really synergize all. MM attacks (trigger barbs, MoP etc.) and defend (make a body block wall). Enemy dies, all necro gains XX Energy for the kill.
That's why it is better. And what damage skills would you bring? Splinter weapon, AR? The SS have them. 
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Necromanz
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Agree. This is the main reason why I dont usually bring a Rit hero.
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That's why it is better. And what damage skills would you bring? Splinter weapon, AR? The SS have them.
At level 14 channeling Splinter and AR are alot more effective than the level 10 version from a N/Rt. You can really feel the difference. But you may have to manually cast Offering of Spirit sometimes, since heroes dont cast it upon recharge.But as far as minion bombing is concered, N/Mo still make better MM bombers, especially with SR, [[Infuse Condition]/[[Foul Feast] and [[Dwayna's Sorrow].
cellardweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
If that is the case, your middle diagram is unlikely to happen. This is what should happen if it works correctly against a caster mob. Notice that I never bring melee heroes or henchies but if I use fiends, I always have melee minions for support.
And what proportion of PvE groups consists entirely of ranged monsters? Situation 2 is the pve situation you'll face in the vast majority of pve - Ranged monsters stay at the edge of the agro bubble, melee monsters run forward to hit the squishiest targets.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller
And what proportion of PvE groups consists entirely of ranged monsters? Situation 2 is the pve situation you'll face in the vast majority of pve - Ranged monsters stay at the edge of the agro bubble, melee monsters run forward to hit the squishiest targets.
And that still shouldn't necessarily change the situation much. Melee monsters like Mhenlo, who runs around. If you want, you can also try bringing a snare. Or some minions may enage melee monsters sometimes, but most minions should still hold aggro if you time it right.
Whatever the case, my first MoP target is usually not going to be a melee monster who runs around. It is going to be a caster sitting in the middle of a group of casters. Melee monsters who have detached themselves from the main group can be dealt with later through Barbs.
cellardweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Melee monsters who have detached themselves from the main group can be dealt with later through Barbs.
Thats exactly the problem. With fiends you can kill all the clumped casters in 5-10 seconds then you have to spend spend 10-20 seconds killing the melees individually. With corner blocks and melee minions you can kill everything in 6-11 seconds and pick up your loot because the entire enemy group is held adjacent to one another.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller
Thats exactly the problem. With fiends you can kill all the clumped casters in 5-10 seconds then you have to spend spend 10-20 seconds killing the melees individually. With corner blocks and melee minions you can kill everything in 6-11 seconds and pick up your loot because the entire enemy group is held adjacent to one another.
You dont always have a corner to block. And MoP is effective against a monster in the middle of a group, not one that is running around individually since it doesn't cause damage to the target itself, only to the surrounding monsters. Barbs, on the other hand, only cause damage to the target.
Furthermore, the monsters you should attack first are the casters like monks, mesmers, and elementalist monsters that deal devastating AoE damage in HM, not the warriors and in HM, the warrior monsters know how to go for your monks instead of your tanks so dont expect your minions to hold good aggro. Enfeebling Blood, Aegis, Ward against Melee (from Herta), and Spiteful Spirit should be able to handle them while you attack their casters. Also, a dual MM team still has more melee minions than a single MM team. So even if you tend to work better with melee minions, a dual MM team would still be superior.
cellardweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
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Quote:
Quote:
Furthermore, the monsters you should attack first are the casters like monks, mesmers, and elementalist monsters that deal devastating AoE damage in HM, not the warriors and in HM, the warrior monsters know how to go for your monks instead of your tanks so dont expect your minions to hold good aggro. Enfeebling Blood, Aegis, Ward against Melee (from Herta), and Spiteful Spirit should be able to handle them while you attack their casters.
Maybe the penny will drop soon... corner blocking means you kill both melee and casters at the same time. It will always result in faster kills because you have no mop up to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Quote:
Pretty much all of pve is bodyblockable. If you're looking for 90 degree walls to find them then thats you're problem. I'd suggest playing with someone that knows how to block then come back after you've seen entire groups melt in seconds. |
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Also, a dual MM team still has more melee minions than a single MM team. So even if you tend to work better with melee minions, a dual MM team would still be superior.
You get a few extra melee minions, a few fiends that shoot into walls at the expense of missing AoE's, lower spec'd splinter and less damage from having to bring herta instead of another ranger or paragon - doesn't sound superior to me.
DarkSpirit
I would rather cater for 99% of PvE that I have seen, than for the 1% of PvE that depends on monsters happen to be appearing in the next corner of a 90 degrees wall that I am approaching. How is your strategy going to work if you are in an open field?
As a ranged character, my minions are my wall which I can form around mobs. Warrior monsters are usually not a problem for me with Enfeebling Blood, Spiteful Spirit, and Aegis, and with so many more melee minions, even without Herta.
cellardweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
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Quote:
As a ranged character, my minions are my wall which I can form around mobs. Warrior monsters are usually not a problem for me with Enfeebling Blood, Spiteful Spirit, and Aegis, and with so many more melee minions, even without Herta.
I can't believe you're still missing the point. The problem isn't protecting yourself from the melees. The problem is that the melees are not being hit by MoP when you're wailing on the casters.
DarkSpirit
I am already body blocking just fine with minions. Your diagram obviously shows 90 degrees walls in the picture.
Honestly, your pictures dont make sense to me. If I have ranged fighters (which I always do) and fiends, which are blocked by a corner, why can't I simply flag them around the corner before enaging? But instead, your diagram shows the main group of party members staying far away from the fight, blocked by the corner, so I dont know how your rangers and paragons are going to get their LoS either. How can you claim to have higher damage when your other party members are not even contributing?
And the way that I am doing it doesn't mean that melee monsters can never be held together in the group too. If they are sometimes distracted by attacking melee minions, aggro is still being held which leaves them still subsceptible to MoP or AoE attacks. Knowing how to flag your heroes (and their minions would follow their masters) before a fight, would already overcome any corner issues, that you seem to have blown out of proportions.
I suggest you learn how to flag your heroes and henchies into suitable positions before enaging.
Honestly, your pictures dont make sense to me. If I have ranged fighters (which I always do) and fiends, which are blocked by a corner, why can't I simply flag them around the corner before enaging? But instead, your diagram shows the main group of party members staying far away from the fight, blocked by the corner, so I dont know how your rangers and paragons are going to get their LoS either. How can you claim to have higher damage when your other party members are not even contributing?
And the way that I am doing it doesn't mean that melee monsters can never be held together in the group too. If they are sometimes distracted by attacking melee minions, aggro is still being held which leaves them still subsceptible to MoP or AoE attacks. Knowing how to flag your heroes (and their minions would follow their masters) before a fight, would already overcome any corner issues, that you seem to have blown out of proportions.
I suggest you learn how to flag your heroes and henchies into suitable positions before enaging.
cellardweller
I'm left to assume you're being deliberately obtuse