Does the community know what they want?

It's an MMO(or CORPG...whatever). It's a community of maybe a million people. Saying you can even please the majority most of the time is like saying you can please the city of Charlotte, NC most of the time. Hell, Clinton won two elections, and didn't even get a majority either time. In other words, the majority voted AGAINST him!

They have to give a little to one group, then give in a different way to another. It's near impossible to give to one aspect of the game without pissing off another group. You just try to do it by making the blow as easy as possible.

re:fireflyry: GW2 won't be a WoW clone. AoC took that role already.

Is it smart guiding your game based upon basement trolls who play guild wars 40 hours a week and never see the light of day? If you're trying to get popular appeal for a game, you'd better look at the etymology involved.

You don't garner any mass appeal by playing to a small group of elitists. That said, I'll repeat my statement that Anet shouldn't be constantly retooling their games based on public opinion at all. If something is seriously wrong, of course it should be fixed. But beyond that, making continual changes to the status quo can do as much to alienate people as it does to make them happy.

GW....serious business.....

That statement is very true. Any changes to Ursan and/or PVE skills is going to bite them right on their asses. They are underestimating the people that use those skills either because they need them (because of rediculously overpowered AI) or they simply are having fun playing the game they way they enjoy playing it, not the way a few elitists think they should be playing.

I really believe that anet simply reads these forums, counts numbers and just assumes that the majority here represents the actual majority of ingame players that never visit these forums.

I can guarantee you when GW2 comes out, the fate of the game will rest in the hands of a few whining elitists just like it does now. How they chose to handle this will determine my future purchase from them.

I disagree there.

Imo Anet basically thought...."Hmmm....only a year or so to go till GW2 and 80% of users are still to stupid to figure out end-game.Hey....insta-win UB works!!!!"

Not saying it does'nt make sense to the majority...just saying...

$10 says your wrong.

If ANet were to cater and balance the game with the "casual majority" in mind, skill balances would be based entirely off of RA and Alliance Battles. Thankfully, this is not the case.

When you want to guide, direct, or balance your game, there is no better source of advice than people who know a lot about it. And yes, even with a lot of trolls, whiners, complainers, etc. that attend the forums, there is still a lot of people providing feedback for the game. It may be hard to see under all the shit, but if you, as a dev, don't take any community feedback at all then you're going to have a much harder time figuring out which direction your game needs to head.

It's not about catering exclusively to one group or another. It's being able to cater to both. I'm saying that ANet should listen to the feedback of the "elite players" while still keeping the casual populous in mind.

Also note that it's always very hard to know what the majority wants, because as a whole they A. don't care and B. don't ever voice their opinions. But if you're getting a lot of people to buy and play your game just for the kicks of it, things are going well.

Most people in the community know what they want. But for every person that benefits or enjoys something there will always be another person who complains.

I think you've unintentionally hit my nail on the head. Why must Anet direct the way I'm playing the game? If a good number of people enjoy things the way they are, why pay attention to a minority who has some new stick up their backside every fortnight? If a lot of people are using something, its an indication that they at least in some small way enjoy it. Anet should see that as a blessing for the people that have fun, not a curse for some people who are perpetually unhappy about everything under the sun (that is, if they actually ever get out in it).

I'll tell you what I want. It's quite simple really, and not a lot to ask for (I don't think so, anyway). I just want a relatively balanced metagame for more than a few months, and a salary for playing Guild Wars when things are broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clone You don't garner any mass appeal by playing to a small group of elitists. That said, I'll repeat my statement that Anet shouldn't be constantly retooling their games based on public opinion at all. If something is seriously wrong, of course it should be fixed. But beyond that, making continual changes to the status quo can do as much to alienate people as it does to make them happy.

Constant changes and status quos are part of competitive gaming of this nature. Guild Wars is a CORPG. Please deal with it. Admittedly, the changes could be made less frequently if they were made a bit better, but that's the price you pay when you have such a small balancing... erm... "team"... behind the wheel.

you win Gg

the quicker they get G2 not mnany people wll be playing GW so meh...no one can complain about it

Does the community know what they want?

Well i believe the individual knows what they want and does not care about anyone else aslong as it benifits themseles.

That aside, the problem we have is, when a group of people are unhappy they voice it everywhere, these people are pretty much only seen so the message they put across is thought to be spoken for all. When they get there way, all the people happily enjoying it the other way, start to complain and get seen everywhere, where as the people in the start sit it the background smirking.

A prime example is SF, so many complaints because of all the people who saved stacks of ecto, feel ripped off because the price went down and they can no longer feel special. For the people who dont have ecto had the chance to gain lots to catch up. Now it is nerfed back people are complaining about that.

You dammed if you do and your dammed if you don't.

Another huge mistake that could happen soon is the nerf of ursan. Ok so loooads of people are against it, but when it boils down to the nitty gritty its again about gold and "leet" status really.
So because so many of them voiced over their opinion not willing to take into account other peoples opinions for Ursan, so the people who like it give up trying to explain themselves, will now suffer and as soon as that happens a whole new argument will begin. lol

So really, Anet shouldnt nerf skills because half the people complain, when the other half like it.
gw has an economy, unless people cheat, or exploit certain aspects of things that were not intended or if something really was bad and in dire need of a nerf, I say leave it alone and see what happens.

I honestly don't think it's a small group of people who are turning attitudes at ANet. You all realize that ANet knows what skills are used the most and where they are used right? They have a pretty good idea of what their changes will do. They are manipulating the game in ways to get that casual player going to enable them to maybe catch up with others. Then, they change it back to level it all out.

Change happens, we all have to get used to it. As far as what I want...it's to have fun.

anet should just give up and nerf every thing its just not fair that there are still ppl out there having fun this will not do at all
oh deary me we must have balance you know

They lost their vision and decided to listen to "the majority". Problem with that is the majority isn't always right.

Take the nerf to shadowform. To me the skill was good enough in PvE without needing to be nerfed. The game is nearing the end of its current lifecycle and probably going to go into a lower playerbase phase once GW2 is out. So I have no problem with ecto prices going down and people getting the good armors while the going is good and easy. However to preserve "the economy" which was broken to begin with, Anet decided to nerf that form of farming. If you ask me, preserving a broken economy isn't going to help things.

However, I think they did this because right now, Anet is trying to be as cheap and lazy with the game as possible and it was easier to nerf the run to keep the complainers happy than to really go in and fix things (which they don't have the time or money to do).

I think this goes back to the major flaw of this form of real-world economics for this style of games. While I love the fact that it is free to play, Anet just doesn't have the ability to translate all those free players into substantive changes unless it is to keep the people happy for the next release... In other words, expect one last big fix just before GW2 beta is annouced.

The GW community is not one entity but several million (more or less) people. These people are men, women, children, middle aged, etc. Each and everyone of these people want something from the game. I just want a game that's fun and somewhat of a challenge. I want a game where what and how I play is no one else's business. I want to not have to put up with bad behavior and people selling things in local chat, so much so that the locals can't chat. That's what I want.

Anet needs to remember that we are not a group, but individuals all playing the same game. There are some things that most of us can agree on but there is way more things that we will never agree on.

/agree, everyone has their own opinion of a certain skill or ability, and if A-net listens to these people/idiots/watever you want to call them and nerfs something solely based on the opinion of one person or a handful of people, you only lose your client base, and all you gain is the support of that handful of people instead of the MILLIONS of people they SHOULD have been supporting in the first place. It's a bad business motto when A-net thinks the needs of the few outnumber the needs of the many. Hell there's some useless skills out there [peace and harmony][second wind], and other things that need to be looked at and not ignored (not UB, if you think that's a skill to be looked at...well it's your opinion, but the game doesn't revolve around UB and every1's QQing for or against it). Now I know GW2 is coming out, but 3 years and nothing being done for a number of things is bullshit.

it's kind of hard to decipher the last part of this statement. are you saying that Anet shouldn't make changes because not everyone will be able to agree on them? or are you saying that Anet shouldn't listen to what their playerbase is saying and just make changes as they see fit? or maybe there's something else you mean and i'm just too dense to figure it out?

of course Anet knows that we are all individuals playing the same game but they can't make specific changes for johnny and sally but keep the old way for billy and suzie. i'm assuming they are making changes that they believe will either benefit the community as a whole or will change a stale meta.

how can any of you truly believe that Anet shouldn't "listen to the majority", as you keep putting it? no businessperson in their right mind would not listen to what their consumers are saying and do nothing. i run a restaurant and if the majority of my customers tell me that they don't like one of my plates, i either change the recipe or take it off the menu altogether. GW isn't a restaurant but the concept is still the same. if the majority of the playerbase says they don't like something, it should be changed.

The problem with GW is that for almost 2 years the "community" A-Net catered to and listened to consisted of a few hundred people.
Witch worked fine when PvP was the main focus.

Then all of a sudden they changed direction and started listnig to the "veterans and hardcore PvE power traders" when they should have used their statistics from the game to see what was popular. They should have known better than trying to be "buddys" with the players and concentrated on being game developers.
There is allways a chance of (using one of Izzys sayings here) power creeping when devs play the game and let other players know WHO and WHAT they are.
Either you listen to the player base as a whole or you ignor them all, we don't need a few self selected players speaking for all of us.

Amen! They have slowly eroded the game and its fanbase for a long time and the sad thing is, Anet is still giving in to them. When PVE skills first came out, I was absolutely thrilled, but what happened,? People on these forums cried that these skills were overpowered and they were nerfed a couple of days after they were released. At that time, I decided that I was done with anet once and for all, until they finally seperated PVP and PVE, that temporarly restored my faith in Anet until their recent announcement of changes to Ursan and PVE skills. I'm sorry Anet, but if you wish to change your game because some people find it too easy and not even make an attempt to find out what the majority of player really want, then you have already lost a customer for GW2. I have been playing GW for about 3 years and I don't find certain areas of the game easy at all, in fact I find them insanely difficult and overpowered. In Nightfall, I absolutely hate going in the area through the vortex, even in normal mode and PVE skills, I still get owned. I play all classes and builds, so its not the build I am using or my heroes. Why should certain people that say its too easy for them, make the game even more difficult for me? Instead of not using the skills that they seem to think is "overpowered", their selfishness has brought them here where they whine and Anet nerfs the hell out of the game. It's bullshit and Anet does not seem to care, or take the time to get the REAL majority of players opinions.

It is actually not important, if the community knows what they want or not. All that matters is, does ANet know what they have to do to keep their fanbase happy, to get them to buy GW2?

Is that so?

When elections are comming up, the TV always shows pre-results on what a small amount of the country would vote. In the end it's never that far off.

Which is why we actualy poll...

It represents what probably most people think. And that is something where you start working with.

And the best thing is to ignore most people with 5000+ posts. Cause they are probably not the average player in the game.

For the good of the game, obviously. When ANet wants more feedback on how to improve the game, who better to turn to? People who play and know the game extensively. If you don't talk to the community you make many hit-or-miss decisions, as seen in the current game of GW.

Just because a lot of people are "enjoying" something doesn't mean it's good for the game. You could probably get a lot of people to actively play in a certain area if it was guaranteed that you'd get a million gold every kill. Will people enjoy it? Yes. Will it make the area popular? Yes. Is it a good idea? Not in any way, shape, or form.

So ignoring (usually) knowledged feedback is a good thing?

What people enjoy is whats good for the game, after all most people bought the game for recreation and enjoyment, those who bought the game for any other reason is whats bad for the game. After all it is a GAME, not an occupation.

People know what they want, its always a matter of self interest. With the SF issue its mearly a debate between the people with stacks of ectos woh saw their value go down vs. the people who were getting rich off the farming run.

Either you missed my "1mil gold each gold" example or you agree with that it would be a "good idea". There is an integrity and quality that needs to be maintained in order to say that you have a good game.

I think it's a given that no company will ever please the community. There will always be people who are unhappy about a change that others will praise. It's the nature of a free opinionated group.

So does the community know what they want? The community can't even agree on what they want. But does the individual know what they want? Probably.

It's a dilemma every company will face, and probably something that will never be perfect.

Florida, 2000: NBC, based on polls, give the state to Gore, when it was too close to call and polls weren't closed. A factor in Bush lawyers arguing in front of the supreme court.

Ohio, 2004: called in favor of Kerry, Bush ends up with the most delegates.

1980: Polls a few days before the election show Reagan with a slim lead. Results: one of the most lopsided elections in history.

GG.

I'm not gonna point fingers because I don't need to. The proof is in the pudding. There are certain aspects of the game that are dying or dead. That part of the game has been catered to for the last 3 years. Countless people who "thought" they knew the game destroyed that portion of the game for themselves by repeated asking to refine it, to balance it, to nerf it etc... You people are shooting yourselves in your own foot. I don't need to explain myself. For anyone who has a clue, you already know what I'm talking about.

GW is doing well. People are playing and enjoying the game. GW is thriving unlike many many other online games that have failed upon release. When a lot of people are enjoying something in GW it is a good thing. ESPECIALLY WHEN IT'S MAKING SALES. Would it make more sense if people didn't like what they were doing but it was better for the game? Who's gonna buy what they don't enjoy? *face palm* If you don't like the direction things are going you can leave anytime. If GW2 turns out to be a success in terms of sales are we still gonna sit here and argue about what's good/bad for the game? If things are "bad" people will leave. This is fact! GW's population in-game seems to be healthy so I rest my case.

For the most part yes. Not a lot of these feedbacks have ever been good. In 1 way or another it's had a domino effect. You buff, nerf 1 thing and suddenly you create a problem somewhere else. Certain aspects of the game are dying. I won't say which portion but you should know anyways. I hate to point fingers but I think I'm becoming very obvious by now.

For the record. Even the best and most knowledgable individuals have made mistakes. It's happened alot. They say 1 thing only to realize later on they were not so correct. Yes this is spotted from time to time in these forums. My faith is in the devs to decipher the good from the bad and even then it's a lil sketchy.

I don't know of America, but here polls reflect much better on who wins.

Let´s hope ANet realizes that.

Yes I must have missed your 1 Mil gold post.

Quality of the game? Are you referring to the game it self (graphics, sound, movement etc etc) or to the game play (witch would be very different for those that have finished all 3 campaigns and Gwen compared to those that recently bought the game).

The thing is that once you have finished the game, You should no longer be catered to. A-Net have then fulfilled it's obligations to you as a customer.
If you prefer to hang around and grind that your choice, and we all do, but that does not obligate A-Net to change the game so it suits the "veterans" at the expense of the "new players", and that my friend is business integrity and etiquette. Always look at what current customers prefer, not what the freeloaders want.

We all had our time and played the game, now the game has evolved and some "veterans" don't like it, well evolve or move on.

Bingo! You win a prize!

Everyone is different.
It's impossible to please everyone.
Therefore someone will always be complaining.

You can't win when dealing with a large amount of people.

/thread

Obviously you didn't read the OP correctly, although this thread has taken a turn in a direction I really wasn't expecting. This isn't a whine thread "THE COMMUNITIES ARE ALWAYS COMPLAINING" or whatever. I was just discussing instances where I really don't know what I want when it pertains to Guild Wars.

Your /thread is invalid because of you inability to read.

I know much of America and the sad thing is our elections are rigged. When exit polls don't match the result it means someone is cheating. It all stared in our 2000 election of Gee-dub-ya Bush. Whose brother Jeb was the governor of a state that miraculously swung in Bushes favor when all exit polls indicated Al Gore won by a landslide. They will do the same to Obama you are better off in Demark because at least your government is not corrupt to the bone.

On topic I'd like to add that the activists of guild wars who call themselves "casual players" are just special interest nerds who want to dumb the game down and get rewards for nothing. These same "casual players" if they do a /age have thousands of hours both in game and on the forums.

So you're blaming us for introducing mechanics like Shadow Form? You're blaming the players and not the devs for implementing skills like "Save Yourselves" and Ursan Blessing? It's totally the players' fault for abandoning care in a game that we can only voice opinion and not act upon?

Obviously Ensign was a terrible person.

Because on the get-go, it's fun. That's what's going to keep people more than anything: The fun factor. And yes, on the surface it's *very* fun. The graphics are great, animations are fun, killing is satisfying. On top of all that,

But the thing is that GW has always been doing well. So why was there a need for all of these changes? Why did ANet "need" to revert their policy of "skill>time"? Why did we "need" numerous additional professions that put way too much pressure on the PvP game?

I'm not saying "GW was doing good and now it's doing bad". I'm saying "GW is doing the same as it's been for the three years it's been in existence". We haven't seen a difference. The sales have been declining slightly, but not because it's "bad", just because it's aging - and that's always expected.

Neither am I saying "we should listen to everything the 'elite' players know and base the game entirely off of them", but that we should listen to their advice while keeping the original appeal of Guild Wars in mind. Besides that, most of the arguments you see circulating these forums don't even concern the majority in the first place: Ursan Blessing, PvE skills, Shadow Form, and high-end PvP aren't too well known about from the casual point of view. The silent majority isn't going to care about the depth of the game as long as the surface is still appealing. And I'm not saying their dumb, I'm saying they haven't heard of it and don't concern themselves with it.

This is going to be a slap to ANet, but look at WoW and it's test realm: When Blizzard wants to introduce something new or make a change to something already existing, they go to the TR forums to gather the feedback of who the changes are concerning. Good examples have been the changes of Tier 6 raiding gear and the Lifetap "nerf": If there wasn't a *huge* influx of players showing the reasoning of why such changes would hurt more than help, many players would've been pissed.

All in all, the dev doesn't know best, and Blizzard realizes this. They listen to the feedback and knowledge provided to them by some of the most longterm players. And you can't really argue that WoW is doing bad.

To the integrity of it, which is part of the overall quality of it. And yes, you lose *A LOT* of it when you just hand things to the players. How meaningful would Oblvion be if at the start you were given Daedric armor and weapons? How would Diablo look if you were given every item, weapon, and spell at the start of the game?

You are right, though, the game is indeed very different than it was way back when. But not in the good sense.

Show me when Guild Wars was doing so bad that ANet had to implement these changes and revert the "skill>time" ideology that made their game unique in the first place. Also, so me how the changes that many here have labeled "bad" (PvE skills, UB, PvE/P seperation) help the casual majority. If you can then I fully and entirely agree with you. But until then...

And that right there is the problem: You never know what most people prefer. The majority is labeled "silent" for a very good reason.

Since you put it so bluntly. YES I do blame the players. Do I blame Ensign specifically? Probably not. There you go. You got my opinion since you asked.

So you blame the players for implementing things that they didn't implement?

That's all I need.

I can agree with everything but Denmark.
<<< The Netherlands, far more beautiful than Denmark.
Ate of [ DK] stands for my first Guild.

Yes yes and yes. I'm not gonna bother elaborating. Seems futile. Feel free to put words in my mouth. I could care less. Hopefully as you say this is all you need. We can end this discussion now.