Are Paragons Really Broken?
rebirthofdragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
[build prof=W/P Str=12+1+3 Spear=12][enduring harmony]["for great justice!"][Flail]["save yourselves!"][mighty throw][blazing spear][no skill][no skill][/build]
[build prof=P/W Lead=12+1 Spear=12+1+3]["they're on fire!"][Focused anger][Aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"][mighty throw][blazing spear][no skill][no skill][/build]
I Assume you'd be spamming one of the two spear attacks and using a plain max spear (14-27), against an opponent with X armor.
Using [Mighty Throw]:
For the War, damage rating would be (5*12)=60, armor rating would be X(.84), damage shift=34
For the Para, damage rating would be (5*12)+(2*4)=68, damage rating would be X, damage shift=42
For the War,
min damage would be 14*2^((60-.84X)/40)+34 = (14*2^(60/40))/(2^(.84X/40))+34 = 39.598/(2^(.021X))+34
max damage would be 27*2^((60-.84X)/40)+34 = (27*2^(60/40))/(2^(.84X/40))+34 = 76.358/(2^(.021X))+34
For the Para,
min damage would be 14*2^((68-X)/40)+42 = (14*2^(68/40))/(2^(X/40))+42 = 45.486/(2^(.025X))+42
max damage would be 27*2^((68-X)/40)+42 = (27*2^(68/40))/(2^(X/40))+42 = 87.723/(2^(.025X))+42
Assuming 60 armor, damage per activation time is:
War = 50-65
Para = 58-73
Taking IASes into account makes it:
War = 75-98
Para = 77-97
So, for Mighty Throw, the Para's damage is only a tiny bit better than the War's, due largely to the bonus damage given by the skill. The sweet spot is around 70 armor, when average damage is closest (.01). Otherwise, paras deal .94 more on average at 120 armor.
Using [Blazing Spear] (discounting burning, as it lasts 3 seconds at both 12 and 16):
For the War,
min damage would be 14*2^((60-.84X)/40)+21 = (14*2^(60/40))/(2^(.84X/40))+21 = 39.598/(2^(.021X))+21
max damage would be 27*2^((60-.84X)/40)+21 = (27*2^(60/40))/(2^(.84X/40))+21 = 76.358/(2^(.021X))+21
For the Para,
min damage would be 14*2^((68-X)/40)+26 = (14*2^(68/40))/(2^(X/40))+26 = 45.486/(2^(.025X))+26
max damage would be 27*2^((68-X)/40)+26 = (27*2^(68/40))/(2^(X/40))+26 = 87.723/(2^(.025X))+26
Assuming 60 armor, damage per activation time is:
War = 37-52
Para = 42-57
Taking IASes into account makes it:
War = 56-79
Para = 56-76
So, for Blazing Spear, the Warrior expects to do an average of about 1.5 damage more, with the sweet spot, again, at 70 armor.
Though this report is not without flaws, I think it shows quite clearly that a warrior throwing a spear will do very close to the same damage a paragon does. Some things not considered are that the warrior will be slowed down using Flail and that the paragon would have fared much better using:
[build prof=P/W Lead=12+1 Spear=12+1+3][Soldier's Fury][Enduring harmony]["For Great Justice!"]["save yourselves!"][mighty throw][blazing spear][no skill][no skill][/build]
However, in this case, the paragon MUST have an elite skill, which leaves the warrior other ways to gain an advantage (i.e. Deep Wound from Cruel Spear). Even on this case, the warrior would have 80+20(insignia)=100 armor compared to that paragon's 80+10(insignia)=90 armor.
Based on this, I beleive that the primary benefit of a Paragon primary is TNTF!, without which they would be slightly inferior to Warrior primaries in PvE.
glountz
Warriors and Paragons are not used for the same goal. I personnally use both.
Dragon slash is a godly DPS, and will charge Headbutt in no time. While the para will maintain TNTF! longer, the perma knocklock from the DSlasher is very sweet, especially on HM bosses.
Use both if you are two players. You can use TNTF on a warrior on recharge also provided you have some energy pool (use some consumable to raise your max mana) to use it in first place and a zealous sword.
Dragon slash is a godly DPS, and will charge Headbutt in no time. While the para will maintain TNTF! longer, the perma knocklock from the DSlasher is very sweet, especially on HM bosses.
Use both if you are two players. You can use TNTF on a warrior on recharge also provided you have some energy pool (use some consumable to raise your max mana) to use it in first place and a zealous sword.
Shaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon
Based on this, I beleive that the primary benefit of a Paragon primary is TNTF!, without which they would be slightly inferior to Warrior primaries in PvE.
Good job on crunching the number. Though anyone who run SY won't run Mighty Throw. What the paragon has over the warrior is infinite energy and AR, therefore he can use energy based attack skills and won't cut into the adrenaline pool of SY so SY is up more often. So even without TNTF, a warrior using spear is no where near a Paragon in term of effectiveness. It's fun for those who like to do weird build but no where near as effective.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon
Also Mighty Throw is horrible. It slows your adrenaline gain significantly and will barely add any damage compared to simple auto attacks.
Personal experience with both a DSlash warrior and an SY gon has taught me that the paragon plays every aspect in a superior manner. As such I generally prefer warriors play an Earthshaker hammer bar; the utility of KD locks is sexy.
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Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
Where are you getting your numbers from? At 14 Strength with a hammer, the armor penetration from Str only adds 12+ damage.
Strength at best adds something like 2-4 damage. Wild Blow a test dummy with 0 strength and then 12 strength to see the small addition.
Tyla
Yet you're still only looking at damage. The usual Imbagon build usually consists of 4 skills:
[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger] Now, we have infinite energy here, an IAS that lasts forever and incredibly powerful defense. I believe a build usually used on the Imbagon is as followed: [aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack][signet of return] You don't see any adrenaline skills other than SY. Why? The adrenaline generating the energy coming from SY isn't disturbed whatsoever, so you have the energy management to spam the majority of your bar on recharge. You gain 6 energy every 4 seconds, not counting zealous mods or regeneration. Either way, the last 3 skills can be replaced with practically anything. The energy gain can fuel almost anything. PS: Why are you using a sub-par attack skill and a skill that probably wouldn't be on anything other than a D/P blindbot and a R/P spearchucker? Oh yeah, superios runes suck. 
odly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Yet you're still only looking at damage. The usual Imbagon build usually consists of 4 skills:
[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger] Now, we have infinite energy here, an IAS that lasts forever and incredibly powerful defense. I believe a build usually used on the Imbagon is as followed: [aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack][signet of return] You don't see any adrenaline skills other than SY. Why? The adrenaline generating the energy coming from SY isn't disturbed whatsoever, so you have the energy management to spam the majority of your bar on recharge. You gain 6 energy every 4 seconds, not counting zealous mods or regeneration. Either way, the last 3 skills can be replaced with practically anything. The energy gain can fuel almost anything. PS: Why are you using a sub-par attack skill and a skill that probably wouldn't be on anything other than a D/P blindbot and a R/P spearchucker? Oh yeah, superios runes suck.
Unless you're using essence of celerity you'll be using For great Justice for permanent double adrenalin (covering the downtime of focused anger and helping you to start up anggresive refrain with a shout since aggresive + tnft costs too much as a starter.). [aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger]["For great justice"] (basic build) [aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack]["For great justice"] (most common full build when you have an orders spammer.) The 3 remaining skills do depend a bit on area and team composition.
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
However when we factor in how PvE plays out as well as the importance of positioning the paragon pushes well out in front. Melee weapon wielding allies will get hit with the physical hate (hexes, blind, weakness) while the paragon would stay clean (until said hate recharges and has not been removed from the first target). Take it another step into Hard Mode where enemies kite faster than a warrior moves. The spear allows the paragon to constantly attack anything in earshot range, and change targets on the fly. A warrior on the other hand has to move to find a new target.
woot woot we discussing Spear chucking Wars rite?
My Lipgloss is Cool
As far as straight up auto-attacking goes, yes the warrior and the para will be close together. When they're using the same skills, yes, they'll be close together. But here's the problem; Warriors have an energy pool (puddle?), while paras have more energy than you can spend (have you ever tried to run out of energy on an imbagon? It's not easy to do). So, while paras could afford 20 energy attacks, and never have down time, warriors don't have the same energy management. Two energy regen, and a primary attribute that doesn't help with energy forces Warriors to turn to adren based skills. But as you're using those to try and up your DPS, or using Flail for an IAS (Oh, you have to reapply your IAS, and it costs adren?) you're taking adren away from SY!, which is the point of your existance with these builds.
Then you can take into account that your IAG (Increased Adren Gain?) not being perma. THEN you can take into account that the para has TNtF. So...not needing other adren skills, perma-IAG(?), perma-IAS, same autoattacking DPS, perma-SY!, AND 50% TNtF? The Winner; Paragon But, most importantly, Imbagon sounds a hell of a lot better than imbarrior. MLiC
Cathode_Reborn
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon
[build prof=P/W Lead=12+1 Spear=12+1+3][Soldier's Fury][Enduring harmony]["For Great Justice!"]["save yourselves!"][mighty throw][blazing spear][no skill][no skill][/build] |
Quote: Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon However, in this case, the paragon MUST have an elite skill, which leaves the warrior other ways to gain an advantage (i.e. Deep Wound from Cruel Spear). Even on this case, the warrior would have 80+20(insignia)=100 armor compared to that paragon's 80+10(insignia)=90 armor. A para has 80 armor, -20 from AR, add 16, another 10+ from insigs, and you got 86 armor. If your healers are having trouble keeping a ranged player with 86 armor alive, then obviously they're not very good. Wars should be making use of their extra armor by being in the frontline, rather than being a subpar spearchucker.
Quote: Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon Based on this, I beleive that the primary benefit of a Paragon primary is TNTF!, without which they would be slightly inferior to Warrior primaries in PvE. You forgot that they're alot better at keeping "SY" up. If you had real experience with a Paragon, you wouldn't try to compare them, and those bars wouldn't be using bad skills. Their difference in DPS may not be far apart from eachother, but the ability to use "TNTF" and spam "SY" is the biggest thing. So why do people use spear wars? It's just somethin to run when they get tired of being in melee.
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Originally Posted by odly
[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack]["For great justice"] (most common full build when you have an orders spammer.)
I wouldn't use Vicious Attack without "gfte" - It's not very likely to crit, and that chance gets reduced even more against lvl20+ enemies in PvE. Quote:
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