Alright... well, Inde said the new poll feature in Sardelac is a test run. So lets give him some data to work on.
Do YOU want to polling option to stay in Sardelac?
Personally, I'm against them. Why? Well, there are a couple of reasons...
1) We have gotten a LOT of repeat thread ideas. Within the first day of the polling feature came up, we had people posting polls asking to change every major title. We have had this http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10307358 ANOTHER new realm of the gods suggestion thread. Normally, these types of posts would be locked within hours. But since they are now polls, they aren't getting closed. Just because a poll is added to a thread doesn't mean an idea hasn't been discussed to death already.
2) The results of polls, while intellectually curious, provide worthless results. For example, in the thread asking people if guild leaders should get a commisison from the gh merchant, the discussion on the thread immidately turned to the /notsigned option, with plenty of logical reasons given. However, there was still 15% in support of the idea. Not one of those people posted in response to defend the idea. That leads me to only one conclusion:
Due to the anonimoity of a poll vote, people were able to post whatever they wanted, and could esentially post "troll" answers in support of bad ideas simpley for the heck of it.
If my poll on this thread had a "I like cookies" option, it would still get 10-15% of the vote... maybe even more.
Should Polls Stay In Sardelac?
HawkofStorms
Snograt
It has problems, sure, but it's better than it was. Once everyone has got the idea of not posting /signed non-responses, this forum will be much better off.
The argument of multiple polls of the same subject is moot; it's no different from before with same-subject threads. It's a basic moderation job, duplicate poll = delete on sight.
Personally I find it a hell of a lot easier to gauge people's opinion on topics when there is a poll, rather that trawling through multiple pages of inane +1s. Hell, sometimes I vote and read nothing but the OP
The argument of multiple polls of the same subject is moot; it's no different from before with same-subject threads. It's a basic moderation job, duplicate poll = delete on sight.
Personally I find it a hell of a lot easier to gauge people's opinion on topics when there is a poll, rather that trawling through multiple pages of inane +1s. Hell, sometimes I vote and read nothing but the OP
Calista Blackblood
its still +1's all round,adding polls hasnt really had the desired effect imo. but its still in a trial period,so might get better
zelgadissan
Something amusing about an anti-poll poll. 
I'm pretty much with Snograt on this one, I'd rather see instantaneously how the poll is than read through inane +1's that I probably would have posted myself.
I'm pretty much with Snograt on this one, I'd rather see instantaneously how the poll is than read through inane +1's that I probably would have posted myself.
pamelf
I say yes purely because it's far easier to see how popular an idea is when people are actually voting for it instead of having to sift through the signed/unsigned in 30 odd pages of posts just to get an idea of how the 'community' feels about a certain idea.
Dr.Jones
i say yes to polls i think its a better system because it allows people to stop in and say yes or no and not have to post. and leaves the posting space for people who have comments or suggestions. also people who disagree normaly voice there option
Darkobra
Polls are generally easier to read than wading through 10 pages of "/signed lawl 12 char kk qq".
As for the third option like pudding, cookies, eggs or other useless third option answers, didn't Inde set up a rule asking not to do this?
As for the third option like pudding, cookies, eggs or other useless third option answers, didn't Inde set up a rule asking not to do this?
Darcy
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Due to the anonimoity of a poll vote, people were able to post whatever they wanted, and could esentially post "troll" answers in support of bad ideas simpley for the heck of it.
If my poll on this thread had a "I like cookies" option, it would still get 10-15% of the vote... maybe even more. The OP can get better responses when a voter can remain anonymous.
Not because the non-posting voter can choose a dumb response but because they can give a truer response without the threat of verbal abuse by friends and enemies alike.
Overall, I think the polls will get better and absorb a lot of the repetitive threads. If someone breaks Inde's rules, she is quite capable of instructing the Sardelac mods to get tough.
If my poll on this thread had a "I like cookies" option, it would still get 10-15% of the vote... maybe even more. The OP can get better responses when a voter can remain anonymous.
Not because the non-posting voter can choose a dumb response but because they can give a truer response without the threat of verbal abuse by friends and enemies alike.
Overall, I think the polls will get better and absorb a lot of the repetitive threads. If someone breaks Inde's rules, she is quite capable of instructing the Sardelac mods to get tough.
Lasareth
Polls serve us twofold:
1) To let the curious know how popular an idea is
2) To give the moderators the ability to enforce no-exception deletion of /signed /unsigned spam posts.
If an idea is good, it'll be implemented regardless of the poll results, just as it'll be implemented regardless of how many /signed spam posts there are. The goal in Sardelac is just to share ideas and build on them. To that end, we need a system with less /signed posts that will still give users the ability to give their opinions on whether or not they like an idea.
1) To let the curious know how popular an idea is
2) To give the moderators the ability to enforce no-exception deletion of /signed /unsigned spam posts.
If an idea is good, it'll be implemented regardless of the poll results, just as it'll be implemented regardless of how many /signed spam posts there are. The goal in Sardelac is just to share ideas and build on them. To that end, we need a system with less /signed posts that will still give users the ability to give their opinions on whether or not they like an idea.
HawkofStorms
My MAIN problem right now is that the moderators aren't inforcing their own rules. I mean, we have another dwarven armor should be added to the HoM thread started. It is clearly a repeat idea. A.net has said no. It has been discussed to death already.
WHY isn't that poll closed? Because its a poll we are going to keep this open? I'm going to start more ridiculously out of date topics in Sardelaic. How about a "Should Factions not have duplicate skills?" poll?
WHY isn't that poll closed? Because its a poll we are going to keep this open? I'm going to start more ridiculously out of date topics in Sardelaic. How about a "Should Factions not have duplicate skills?" poll?
Lasareth
...or you could just report the bad posts or send the mods of that forum a PM.
I don't know where in the world you get that just because something's a poll makes it off-limits to any moderation. If it's something that legitimately should be deleted then the mods just haven't gotten to it yet.
I'll distill it down to its most basic form for easy understanding: polls are replacements for /signed spam. Nothing more, nothing less. The rules haven't changed just because they've been implemented.
What you have is a problem with the moderation, not the new system. That's something that can be easily taken care of in PMs.
I don't know where in the world you get that just because something's a poll makes it off-limits to any moderation. If it's something that legitimately should be deleted then the mods just haven't gotten to it yet.
I'll distill it down to its most basic form for easy understanding: polls are replacements for /signed spam. Nothing more, nothing less. The rules haven't changed just because they've been implemented.
What you have is a problem with the moderation, not the new system. That's something that can be easily taken care of in PMs.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
My MAIN problem right now is that the moderators aren't inforcing their own rules. I mean, we have another dwarven armor should be added to the HoM thread started. It is clearly a repeat idea. A.net has said no. It has been discussed to death already.
WHY isn't that poll closed? Because its a poll we are going to keep this open? I'm going to start more ridiculously out of date topics in Sardelaic. How about a "Should Factions not have duplicate skills?" poll? Moderators are busy, and don't catch every single little thing. If you notice a repeat thread, report it, and a moderator will deal with it. There are about 2 active sardelac moderators, who don't stare at sardelac catching everything.
It's not that moderators aren't enforcing their rules, it's just they're missing them. When you notice a moderator missed something, or something needs to be deleted/closed, report it.
WHY isn't that poll closed? Because its a poll we are going to keep this open? I'm going to start more ridiculously out of date topics in Sardelaic. How about a "Should Factions not have duplicate skills?" poll? Moderators are busy, and don't catch every single little thing. If you notice a repeat thread, report it, and a moderator will deal with it. There are about 2 active sardelac moderators, who don't stare at sardelac catching everything.
It's not that moderators aren't enforcing their rules, it's just they're missing them. When you notice a moderator missed something, or something needs to be deleted/closed, report it.
Earth
Pretty sure 1/2 repeat threads about a good idea is a good thing to allow atm, simply because polls have been added. Makes it easier to see who supports etc 
quickmonty
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Alright... well, Inde said the new poll feature in Sardelac is a test run. So lets give him some data to work on.
Do YOU want to polling option to stay in Sardelac? Inde is a her, not a him.
There is already a poll regarding polls in Sardelac in the OT&A forums, making this ANOTHER duplicate poll.
Do YOU want to polling option to stay in Sardelac? Inde is a her, not a him.
There is already a poll regarding polls in Sardelac in the OT&A forums, making this ANOTHER duplicate poll.
HawkofStorms
Quote:
Originally Posted by quickmonty
Inde is a her, not a him.
There is already a poll regarding polls in Sardelac in the OT&A forums, making this ANOTHER duplicate poll.
1) How should I know if someone is male or female? It's not like I talked to them on vent or seen a photo of them. "He" is the placeholder generic personal pronoun in every major foriegn language.
2) I'm pretty sure you are refering to this thread, which was moved from Sardelac.
3) Its not like the moderators are busy and haven't seen the posts. They see them. The poll asking for dwarven armor remained open. Another post made 5 miniutes later asking for the same thing was promptly locked, as a repeat thread idea. However, the poll remained open for days (and still is).
4) You'd have to be blind to NOT see them. At one point, about 8 of the first 20 threads were polls about ideas that had already been discussed months ago, all of which remained open.
There is already a poll regarding polls in Sardelac in the OT&A forums, making this ANOTHER duplicate poll.
1) How should I know if someone is male or female? It's not like I talked to them on vent or seen a photo of them. "He" is the placeholder generic personal pronoun in every major foriegn language.2) I'm pretty sure you are refering to this thread, which was moved from Sardelac.
3) Its not like the moderators are busy and haven't seen the posts. They see them. The poll asking for dwarven armor remained open. Another post made 5 miniutes later asking for the same thing was promptly locked, as a repeat thread idea. However, the poll remained open for days (and still is).
4) You'd have to be blind to NOT see them. At one point, about 8 of the first 20 threads were polls about ideas that had already been discussed months ago, all of which remained open.
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
1, 2, 3..
Quote: Originally Posted by Lasareth you could just report the bad posts or send the mods of that forum a PM. Also..
Quote: Originally Posted by HawkofStorms 3) Its not like the moderators are busy You know nothing of how busy some of the Moderators on this forum are.
To be perfectly honest, I don't see a problem with a new post created for an old idea, which hasn't been discussed for a long time, in order to have a Poll attached to it. The creator of the older thread may no longer be active on the forum in order to add a poll so there are 2 options:
1. Create a new thread with a poll.
2. PM a Moderator and ask them to add a poll to the old thread.I also agree with Earth in that fresh discussion on good previous suggestions is not necessarily a bad thing. If you disagree with a Moderator's decision to leave a thread open, just flag it up and ask a Moderator to review it.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
2) I'm pretty sure you are refering to this thread, which was moved from Sardelac.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10307440
quickmonty
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
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I was just informing you. Now you know. No need to get your panties bunched up.
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2) I'm pretty sure you are refering to this thread, which was moved from Sardelac.
Wrong. Refer to the link in the above post. I stated OT&A forums, not Sardelac.
Fril Estelin
I think poll should not be commonly used because it's too easy to cheat at them (on the net, it's very common to ask friends and family to enter votes for your opinion, plus you can use multiple IPs/accounts to do so yourself). And I've got the feeling that they reduce the amount of posts and thus quality of the discussion (even if they remove lots of useless +1's...), in particular as people will jump on polls as they see one. Even when it's obvious for certain threads, like in Sardelac, that it's only about Yes/No answers, I'm not sure that polls succeed at what they're trying to achieve (a bit like election polls IRL...). I've tried in this thread to organise player's feedback and it was a pain, but I feel I've achieved interesting results.
In the end, if Inde decided to try this, we should leave it like that and wait until she makes a final decision or asks for feedback. We don't have the global view. Inde
No, it's not a perfect system. There are flaws, help us with suggestions or guidelines you think could improve it! HawkofStorms, I too saw the repeat threads the day they opened and debated what to do with them. Close them, merge them, bump the old one and add a poll to it... Wasn't sure what the best course of action was. Please consider next time that rather then us "not doing our jobs" we may have seen it and taken into consideration that there were several ways to handle the situation and we decided that leaving them "as is" was the best course of action. Just because we didn't do the course of action you would have preferred doesn't mean we are breaking any rules. The guidelines in Sardelac about making repeat threads, no they are not rules, are just that. Guidelines to help the section flow better, to keep in mind before you post, to cut down on threads that keep continually popping up and are repeated to death.
Once I saw the number of repeat threads popping up, I went into each one and am continuing to go into them to see if there's quality discussion in there that justifies a new thread. The Sardelac mods are doing the same. So we did take all this into consideration. If it becomes a further problem please let us know! This trial month we can scrutinize and take all your comments and suggestions into account. We can make new rules/guidelines from there or modify it so that it can improve that section. DarkNecrid
Alright here is my take:
I think polls should be enabled anyways. For everyone. This is the only forum I go to that you have to pay to use the polling feature, and it seems weird! Polls are very good and powerful devices, and I disagree with Fril here. Most polls do not impact the discussion, because generally if someone votes in your poll, but doesn't post they weren't going to post anyways. So I do not believe it really impacts the discussion, as long as you can force the discussion to actually happen somehow. This is easily possible if the OP makes a good topic. There are a lot of topics that are polls on this forum and have discussion. The extra votes are just that: extra votes for your stuff, without the tying down of possibly having to write something out. Personally, I think polls would benefit every forum, not just Sardelac. The extra opinions (even if they aren't explicitly written out) are always always helpful. EDIT: And besides polling, there are a few other things you could try out in Sardelac in general, but I'm not very hasty to suggest these because a lot of these suggestions (if combined, especially) would require a moderator who is active A LOT who can watch that forum with an eagle eye which might not be possible? :P I'm still working bits and pieces of the suggestions out, but I'm not sure how people will take them. DarkNecrid
OK well I'm double posting since this is long and i don't know what the cut off is on Guru and so people can see ive posted the ideas now and comment on it rather than waiting for someone else to notice my edit:
Suggestions for poll usage/improving Sardelac in General, v1.0: -Archive every topic currently in Sardelac (not the classes subforum), into a new temporary sub-forum. -Change Sardelac's topic posting to requiring moderator approval. This does 5 things: a) It prevents duplicate topics. Moderators can check for duplicate topics, and if there is a duplicate, lead that person to that topic. b) It also helps limit bad topics. If a bad topic was to be posted, instead of people +1ing and stuff in there (I've seen it happen), the moderator can not approve the topic. Easy. c) It removes rule #2 from the rules. Well technically. It removes the need for it to be there. (mod can deny them) d) It removes rule #3 from the rules. Well technically. It removes the need for it to be there. (mod can change it.) e) It also prevents bots from posting there. -Keep polls there obviously. -If anyone who has an archived topics wants their topic back unlocked and moved to the main forum, they PM a mod with a link etc. They should probably only have a week to do this before they are deleted/stay permanently locked. -If a poll isn't added to a topic, it should probably be added by a mod, and it should be done (or changed) in such a way as to not be biased. No joke options etc. Force the polls to be there? -Have the Index of Ideas remade obviously, if you did this. -Should clarify the one idea rule. I never had my balance update thread closed, so I am assuming it specifically isn't against update threads about updates as long as it is in an update format? -Moderators should take an active role in promoting the actual discussion should the topic start to go off the deep end and they have to change stuff around. I've seen a topic get hit once or twice, tons of deletions etc, and they just say "deleted a ton of posts!" basically, and that is just sorta like stabbing it and leaving it for dead, because you aren't leaving anything to branch off of. Ask a question, post an opinion, do something to keep the ball rolling. I think a recent example would be the PvE balance thread. Avarre (good guy luv him <3) deleted a ton of our stuff, but didn't really leave anything to branch off of. Had that guy not randomly posted something about stuff, it might have just died right then and there. This is more of a mod issue, less so of a Sardelac issue however. -RANDOM SUGGESTION: keep that SUGGESTION OF THE NOW thing going. I think this forum has a bump feature for mods, yes? If so, don't sticky these threads, just have a mod (if he is on) bump them up. People will read these threads a lot more if they are just at the top and have that flashy thing behind the name, rather than if it was stickied. No one reads stickies. Or make sure they are always the bottom sticky (if possible.) So yeah, that's the gist of it. I have a few more things I can add in maybe, but one of them is kind of iffy (locking topics after X days of inactivity, requiring a mod to unlock it should you want it unlocked to prevent necroposting or something, but this is pretty iffy and not really that much of a serious suggestion from me atm. Just a random idea.) and such, but yeah. Basically, try to promote the active use of the polling feature to the best of its ability, and promote good discussion by only allowing good, well thought out topics.
Dr.Jones
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNecrid
OK well I'm double posting since this is long and i don't know what the cut off is on Guru and so people can see ive posted the ideas now and comment on it rather than waiting for someone else to notice my edit:
Suggestions for poll usage/improving Sardelac in General, v1.0: -Archive every topic currently in Sardelac (not the classes subforum), into a new temporary sub-forum. -Change Sardelac's topic posting to requiring moderator approval. This does 5 things: a) It prevents duplicate topics. Moderators can check for duplicate topics, and if there is a duplicate, lead that person to that topic. b) It also helps limit bad topics. If a bad topic was to be posted, instead of people +1ing and stuff in there (I've seen it happen), the moderator can not approve the topic. Easy. c) It removes rule #2 from the rules. Well technically. It removes the need for it to be there. (mod can deny them) d) It removes rule #3 from the rules. Well technically. It removes the need for it to be there. (mod can change it.) e) It also prevents bots from posting there. -Keep polls there obviously. -If anyone who has an archived topics wants their topic back unlocked and moved to the main forum, they PM a mod with a link etc. They should probably only have a week to do this before they are deleted/stay permanently locked. -If a poll isn't added to a topic, it should probably be added by a mod, and it should be done (or changed) in such a way as to not be biased. No joke options etc. Force the polls to be there? -Have the Index of Ideas remade obviously, if you did this. -Should clarify the one idea rule. I never had my balance update thread closed, so I am assuming it specifically isn't against update threads about updates as long as it is in an update format? -Moderators should take an active role in promoting the actual discussion should the topic start to go off the deep end and they have to change stuff around. I've seen a topic get hit once or twice, tons of deletions etc, and they just say "deleted a ton of posts!" basically, and that is just sorta like stabbing it and leaving it for dead, because you aren't leaving anything to branch off of. Ask a question, post an opinion, do something to keep the ball rolling. I think a recent example would be the PvE balance thread. Avarre (good guy luv him <3) deleted a ton of our stuff, but didn't really leave anything to branch off of. Had that guy not randomly posted something about stuff, it might have just died right then and there. This is more of a mod issue, less so of a Sardelac issue however. -RANDOM SUGGESTION: keep that SUGGESTION OF THE NOW thing going. I think this forum has a bump feature for mods, yes? If so, don't sticky these threads, just have a mod (if he is on) bump them up. People will read these threads a lot more if they are just at the top and have that flashy thing behind the name, rather than if it was stickied. No one reads stickies. Or make sure they are always the bottom sticky (if possible.) So yeah, that's the gist of it. I have a few more things I can add in maybe, but one of them is kind of iffy (locking topics after X days of inactivity, requiring a mod to unlock it should you want it unlocked to prevent necroposting or something, but this is pretty iffy and not really that much of a serious suggestion from me atm. Just a random idea.) and such, but yeah. Basically, try to promote the active use of the polling feature to the best of its ability, and promote good discussion by only allowing good, well thought out topics. yes and no i think that every sugestion should have a poll attached that says /Sighn /Notsighn i read though your ideas and i like a few but some are just to forceful. and to much work. DarkNecrid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Jones
yes and no i think that every sugestion should have a poll attached that says /Sighn /Notsighn
i read though your ideas and i like a few but some are just to forceful. and to much work. Too much work isn't an excuse. Suggestions are suggestions (rule #10 of Sardelac ;p), but regardless, I do not think it is too much work and anyone who is truly dedicated and actually wants to see it improved would be willing to do those things, were the idea to be a favorable one (see, that's up to Inde. ;P) Too forceful, maybe. But a lot of people don't come here often, don't know polls are back, and just want to post. Maybe they just don't post in Sardelac often. Sardelac and Community Works are similar, in that they both are forums that birth things from the community. One is tangible programs/data, the other is ideas that float around in people's heads. Both need quality control, in my opinion, and that is something the Community Works forum has always had right here. You'll have better discussion, when you have better things to discuss in the first place.
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