A look at "Arachnia"

Arachnia

Now, we all know that there is no in game direct reference to Arachnia, and that Arachnia, an ancient, now-dead spider-god, is only truly found in the .dat file. However, I am bringing up my thoughts on this spider-god that came to me while exploring the Realm of Torment for known and unknown landmarks that are mentioned on the official wiki.

Arachnia and the Realm of Torment “Landmarks.”

The first mention of Arachnia would be the landmarks that are not all completely found (I have been looking for them all, at this point in time; have yet to find seven of twenty-three). The landmarks that relate to Arachnia are: Arachnia Plateau, Harvestman's Lair, The Spider's Heart, and Vale of Shadows. These four areas all have a reference to Arachnia directly, or to spider-like things.

Aside from that, the Gate of Fear and the Domain of Fear are riddled with spider legs and spider webs. Also, in that area, I have noted the most likely places to be the “Vale of Shadows” and the “Harvestman’s Lair.” It seems to me, that when/if Arachnia existed, the now Domain of Fear was its main home/realm.

There is also the description of the Domain of Fear that was found in the gw.dat file:

Arachnia’s link to Abaddon.

With knowing that Arachnia is a dead god, and that the Domain of Fear is at least based off of it, we can assume some more things about it. In addition to how the Gate/Domain of Fear look, and with the landmarks in there being mostly related to Arachnia (possibly all the Arachnia landmarks are in the Domain of Fear, and I have yet to spot the rest), as I said, it is highly possible that the Domain of Fear was Arachnia’s home. Now, another thing to look at is the Apostate. Everyone who has looked into Abaddon and lore should know the quest reward dialogue from The Apostate. For fast reference, here it is (and I bolded the important part, and underlined the very important part):
Knowing that Abaddon supplanted a god before him, and the Domain of Fear is based on Arachnia, and not to mention that Arachnia is dead, one can assume that Abaddon’s predecessor was Arachnia. Other then the given evidence, it should also be pointed out that the Apostate works in the Gate/Domain of Fear (he can be found in the Gate of Fear, and the quest by him deals within the Domain of Fear). So there are several supports for Arachnia being Abaddon’s predecessor.

Arachnia’s minions/followers.

With the idea that Arachnia was Abaddon’s predecessor – and its main home was the now Domain of Fear – set in place, the next thing to look at is Arachnia’s past minions. I’m sure many will disagree with this part (if not the whole idea in this). I believe that the Terrorweb Dryders, Torment Claw and Grasps of Insanity, possible the Scythes of Chaos and Wrathful Storms, were originally Arachnia’s minions. My main reasoning is that they (excluding Wrathful Storms and Scythes of Chaos) have a spider-like look. Dryders are obvious, and the Claws look like giant spider legs. Grasps have been noted to have bug-like features in the past, and the Wrathful Storms and Scythes of Chaos also have somewhat bug-like features, although those two are the least dominant of the group. My second reasoning is that those groups all appear in the area I’ve noted to most likely be the Harvestman's Lair, which is the “swamp-like area” in the south east corner of the Domain of Fear. If these demons were originally Arachnia’s minions, then started helping Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies, that could explain why the Lightbringer title does not affect those demons (excluding the Torment Claws from the group for this).

I am also leading to believe, although I have absolutely no support for this, that Arachnia is the origin of all hostile bugs in GW. My reasoning for this is that 1) Arachnia is older then the “True Gods,” 2) Arachnia was a spider (and therefore a bug), and 3) Arachnia was evil (evidenced by “The Spider’s Heart” description).



Possible Arachnia concept art. Looks convincing enough to be Arachnia to me at least.

Something that may or may not deal with Arachnia, found in Nightfallen Jahai:












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None of this can really be proven, or even be truly liable, until ANet confirms or denies that Arachnia was a thrown out concept or not. These are just some thoughts, and a little support, that I had while looking over the Landmarks of the Realm of Torment and the idea of Arachnia from the .dat file.

I love this idea, and agree with it! I don't know if I would go as far as saying it's why bugs are hostile in GW, but everything about the Domain I think is right. Maybe they didn't feel there was enough coverage of Arachnia to include it in the game? who know =S

I would state my thoughts, if I hadn't already bugged him enough at the very idea of even making a hypothesis on information that cannot be confirmed through in-game evidence.

An interesting idea.

It wouldn't surprise me if we see Arachnia appear in GW2 somewhere.

I always thought the Terrorwebs were out of place in UW.

Wow, that was really comprehensive and actually convincing. I'm going to have to have another explore around NF now.

What about Arachni? Any relation? Maybe some evidence of Arachnia in the Arachni's Haunt Dialogues or the dungeon itself?

While i believe Arachnia is simply a thrown out concept like Abaddons Dead Children it is obvious that the area that was to be named Arachnia Plateau is the area at the entrace to the Gate of Secrets. If you exit the gate of Secrets into the Domain of Fear you will notice that behind the entrance is something that looks like an upside down spiders mouth. And the area beyond that looks like the underbelly of a spider.

The main problem with Arachni is that, of what I can find, we don't know where it's name came from. If Arachni is brood/self-named, which I personally doubt, it could be named that because it is the queen of the brood. Arachni could also simply be a title for the current Brood Queen. If it was the Asuras that named Arachni, then it is possible that either Arachni is based off of Arachnia or it is simply meant for "spider" as Arachnida is the "class" that spiders fall under biologically. Arachni would be short for Arachnida, so Arachni's name simply means "spider" how I see it. Same can be said for Arachnia, except that Arachnia is a also used name for a mutant spider in a movie, so the name could be a pop culture reference to that movie, at least originally.

All in all, the only connection I see between Arachnia and Arachni is that Arachni was named dafter Arachnia or that Arachni and Arachnia are just simply spiders. In other words, no direct connection, just a naming usage.

First, I would like to say that while exploring the Realm of Torment, I found a few areas that could be possible spots for where "Abaddon's Dead Children" is, unless it has been confirmed that was canceled. As for Arachnia Plateau, the area I see most fit for it would be right behind the entrance to Gate of Secrets, and the Spider's Heart being the blue glow under the ground in front of the entrance to the Gate of Secrets.

So I would agree with you on where the Arachnia Plateau is. (side note: as I have said, I have been looking for all the Landmarks in the Realm of Torment, and I am working on labeling where each is in maps of each area. I still have Nightfallen Jahai to go through, and I need to go back through the Domain of Pain; also, I have about 3 landmarks left to find possible locations of. Once I finish through Nightfallen Jahai and Domain of Pain, I will post the maps up, either in this thread or a new one.)

Just because the landmarks are visible does not mean the original idea wasnt thrown out. I would think removing some of these landmarks would mean a complete map redesign -and we all know Anet would not want to do that. So while you can see them, Anet removed the stories behind them not expecting people to be diving into the DAT after them. Lupicas Boneyard, Abaddons Dead Children, The Spiders Heart - all places that have had backstories wiped away but are probably still visible as places we've gone "Ahhhh" at. It sounds to me like Arachnia and Abaddons Dead Children originally had more to them - possibly more quests like The Apostrates.

That right there gave me a good laugh.

The story behind them probably was thrown away, like the Oddbodies quest was for a short time, then later put back in. Like the Oddbodies, Arachnia could easily be placed back in, even in a new place. The landmarks, for all we know, were always just simply a "sight-seeing" implement, and nothing more. Simple stuff put in for Anet to possibly continue on later, like much of the things in Prophecies.

This may look a bit out of place since I'm pasting it over from the discussion going on in the same thread on GWO, but here it is..

We have several obvious instances of Dhuum's forces being his own.

1. The Underworld. We see a large variety of creatures there, but the main ones causing the trouble are the Terrorweb Dryders who have imprisoned the Reapers.

2. The Dragon Festival. During the first Festival, the Fury, a follower of Dhuum, led an attack on Shing Jea Island. Being a follower should make it obvious that his forces would be those of Dhuum's.

3. The Emissary of Dhuum makes it fairly obvious that the Tortureweb Dryders are a part of Dhuum's main force. In fact, it seems that the Soulweir is a creation of Dhuum's devising.

The part I find interesting is that we never really learn exactly what it is the Soulweir does.

Pondering that aside, it seems fairly obvious from the Keeper of Souls in the Unwanted Guest quest in the Underworld that the Terrorweb/Tortureweb Dryders are a key part, if not the main part, of Dhuum's forces. As it would also seem that they are used to enslave or bind demons to Dhuum's will, as implied by the quest mentioned.

Aside from the Dryders, it seems that creatures like the Fury and the Emissary of Dhuum are simply sentient demons that have sided with Dhuum's cause. The other forces we see may be more demons that have sided with him or are ones that were subjugated by the Fury under Dhuum's command or provided by Abaddon.

This reminds me of the hints at Utopia we find in Asura land such as the Mayan design patterns in Asuran architecture.
It seems once a-net abandons a concept idea they do not completely eradicate all trace of it from the game. Such traces now have no storyline relevance I think.
Perhaps this arachnia was an early concept of Abaddon which A-net later abandoned?

Interesting...

I wonder what point exactly the Tanarukk became the Destroyers? The old campaign model did involve campaigns being made in parallel - some of these hints may have been put in while ANet was thinking of having the insect-like Destroyers be the minions of a different Big Bad than the ancient dragons for Chapter 4, and then quickly taken out.

It does seem to be a reasonable theory that Arachnia was Abaddon's predecessor, although I'm not sure how to reconcile Abaddon's water focus with Arachnia's spider aspect. That said, Kormir doesn't seem to have picked up the water portfolio, so it could be that that one is one that gets passed around and is currently in Grenth's hands.

The other side of it - the knowledge aspect that seems fundamental to the role - does work quite well, however. Think how many metaphors there are about gaining and controlling knowledge that involve webs...

Well, for the Water thing, it does seem as though that Grenth picked that up, and "changed" it to his liking (freezing it). It is also possible, with the "job of the god" that passes on, was that Abaddon gained two concepts from the past, as seeing how he had the strength of two gods, I always figured he killed and absorbed the power of two different gods, Arachnia being one of them.

With that said, I think the real thing that Abaddon gained from Arachnia, other then the Realm, was the "evil" aspect. As we all know Abaddon is now evil, and through the description of "The Spider's Heart" Arachnia was evil. So it could have been that he became evil by absorbing Arachnia's power, and gained his other power from his other predecessor.

Of course, that was my thought before reading what you said about webs and knowledge metaphors. And the web/knowledge metaphor link is more likely to be the case with where Abaddon got the knowledge title.

As for the Tannek/Destroyers being originally bug-like. I doubt they were ever considered Arachnia's minions, as Arachnia is long dead, unless the description of the landmarks are wrong.

A thought that recently passed through my head is that it is possible that Dhuum, along with Arachnia, is bug-like, which could contribute to his Grasps of Insanity actually being his and having insectoid looks.

With that concept (and the Ancient Dragons being predecessors of the True Gods), maybe the "god timeline" was something like this:

1. Ancient Dragons (Primordus and co.)
2. Insectoid Gods (Dhuum, Arachnia, and others)
3. "True" Gods (Dwayna, Grenth, Abaddon/Kormir, etc.)

*What I'm hinting at is that the original concept for the Destroyers could have been Dhuum's "new/elite" minions*

But that's all a bit off topic.

Okay, so I didn't look that deep into this and knew nothing about this Arachnia.

However, I would say that Arachnia was the trashed beginning concept for Abbadon. There was an older thread I started that talked about how the gods may have come to be, and the idea was proposed that all the gods were sentient races that came to possess great power through entering the Mists.

The idea of Arachnia being Abbadon's predecessor is possible, given with what we have to work with, and the part about the Terrorweb Dryders and Torment Claws (everything else is not spider related) being former servants of Arachnia is even more compelling.

However, going by any of the gods, Dwayna, Grenth, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, even Dhuum or Abbadon, it never refers to them as the "<insert any species> God." Which kind of weakens the argument. They are referred to the Gods of something, be it Truth, Water, Fire, Might, etc...

Also, I believe in the times before Abbadon was exiled and turned against the Gods, there was peacefulness for all intensive purposes. So even if Arachnia was his predecessor, it would have had to have been before recorded history in Tyria, or Arachnia would to have been a peaceful god.

Overall, Im going to have to go with "Trashed Concept For Abbadon" for 1000 Alex!

I don't think Arachnia was a concept for Abaddon because the few references of Arachnia relates to it already being dead.

Those things you mentioned are not their species, but their attribute, what they control so to speak. It is true that their species is never out right said, although through concepts we can tell that the gods resemble different species, albeit most are not really mentioned in game, and none are proven (Dwayna=Angel, Melandru=Druid/Nature being, Balthazar=Human, Abaddon=Mursaat, Kormir=Human, Grenth=unknown, Lyssa=human?, Menzies=most likely human(oid), Dhuum=Possibly insectoid). Also, just because Arachnia was "the now-dead spider-god" doesn't mean Arachnia was THE spider-god. There could have been more gods that were spiders before the other gods, just like I said above, Dhuum seems to, through observation of his followers, be insectoid as well.

Seeing how we only know about 1800 years of history, and that Arachnia is from before the True God's reign, it is very likely Arachnia was before recorded history, especially as the only reference to Arachnia is in the Rift.

I doubt Arachnia was an early concept of Abaddon since the landmarks were originally found in the Realm of Torment. Like i said before they probably had plans to introduce this but thought "nah" for whatever reason. I would say they could of scrapped it because of GW2 but at that point they had Utopia in mind instead - so perhaps it was lack of time or they simply decided giving away too much would have players pushing them to explore it later.

Also the Tannek were originally Piglike and only became insect like after being adapted to EotN so i doubt they had relation. This picture depicts the merge of the idea before they became what we see them as now:

Now, you said you can see Arachnia in the .dat file? I would very much like to see this.

Free Runner, mind citing where you got "pig-like" for the Tannek?

Also, the description for the picture you posted, from the PCGamer GW issue:
That being the earliest concept that I know of for the Destroyer/Tannek, and with no reference to "pig-like" just simply "insect undertone" I will have to doubt that they were designed to be "pig-like." At least until you site .

Off-topic: I wish they used that picture you posted for a hard Destroyer boss, like a replacement for the "Disc of Chaos" in Desctruction's Depths.

You can find the description and landmark names in the .dat file, at least how I understand, I've never went into the .dat file myself. It is how people got the names of all the landmarks in NF when they have no in game reference. There are probably names and descriptions for more places in non-NF areas, but people haven't looked into the old untouched stuff that much. And sadly, until I can go into the .dat file myself and search, I don't think any more landmark descriptions will be put on wiki, or old landmark names will be found.

great insight on arachnia OP'er....this god must somehow be linked to the eotn dungeon aswell.

I have no source. I actually only came across the early Tannek pieces through reading the Utopia summary on the wiki. There they described them as piglike and after actually looking at the pieces i also agree on that (unless of course Anet have decided to create their own idea of insects being fleshy, armor wearing hunchbacks with snouts) .

The quote you provided sounds like the person was mixing up the two concepts - Tannek that are demonic beings in Eye of the North? or he was he actually talking about the current Destroyers there?

If you read some of the replies, you would notice someone brought that up, and that I answered how I do not believe Arachnia is related to Arachni, at least directly. I believe it is simply a naming method, both lore-wise and programming wise.

@ Free Runner: The quote I provided was a caption for the picture that you provided, and that picture being the earliest known concept of the Tannek.

As for your wiki's description. I personally disagree with it. I see no snout, bigs can easily be hunchback and their exoskeleton would be the armor. And of course, insects are fleshy many times. It seems to me that they were meant to be "demonic bugs" having the whole fiery concept behind them.

Not to mention, in that picture, the smoke on the back resembles wings (bat-like wings it seems). I don't think pigs have wings .

I dont think beings made of rock and lava can walk about and aim to destroy the world. But Tyria is a fantasy world - and pigs with wings make sense in Tyria.

Also - piglike not actual pigs. And that is not the earliest piece because as i said in my original post its both ideas put together.

To make it simple - Piglike Soldiers of Utopia -> Hybrid Creature which appears to be both the current Destroyer and the old concept -> Current Destroyers.



Now on that picture the Tannek appear to have snouts, wear armor and walk hunchback. These do not have that insect appearence and appear more soldier like than the current Destroyers.

So i get back to what i said: the original Tannek were not so insectlike therefore i doubt they were to have any relation to Arachnia.

Now actually on to the topic: I'm pretty sure Arachni had nothing to do with Arachnia. I have been through the dungeon alot of times and no hints are ever made at it being more than a big spider who appears to be pissing off the local Asura due to it being in a area filled with energy. The name was probably just based on "Arachnid" which is pretty much what they are.

...That's been a big theory for quite a long time now. By long time, I mean months prior to your current post. I was hoping you would have read up on Dhuum at least a bit before making this whole hypothesis. Anyway, now you know.

This is just a personal pet peeve, but...MISTS. The Realm of Torment, Underworld, Fissure of Woes, all are located in the Mists. However, they can be accessed from the center of the Mists, the Rift. And at the center of the Rift, is the Hall of Heroes.

Sorry, just have to get that out there.

I always took that bit on Abaddon differently. He defeated two of the Five Gods being worshiped in the present, but then they got back up with the other three Gods and, as a whole, they defeated Abaddon.

I actually have read up on Dhuum a looong time ago before this thread. And I was well aware of that idea and I even said so multiple times... "according to observations" does not mean by me but others.



I still always think of the Realm of the Gods being within the Rift, just as the Hall of Heroes is. If it is proven that isn't the case... my bad.



I never said he beat two of the current gods, as it never says he did, it says he COULD, as mentioned in a old thread, think it was Free Runner who constantly pointed that out. What I meant, was that Abaddon had the strength of two gods, and therefore is possible that he killed two gods in the past, not the True Gods (I always think the Great Dwarf and Arachnia, probably Arachnia being the first to be beaten). But that is a hypothesis for another topic.

And @ Free Runner... Where did you get that picture? Never seen it before, and I'm fairly sure I went through at least a majority of the concept art of the GW1 games, including Utopia.

I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but spiders are arachnids, not insects. Also, the Destroyers aren't demons.

Listening...

But Arachnids are similar to insects, which is where I was coming from. Not to mention that I, and a few others, have stated that Arachnid is most likely where the name Arachni *from the dungeon* and Arachnia came from.

Not how they are now, at least game-mechanic wise, but they were demonic in the creation of them.


Aside from the troll... I found something just now in Nightfallen Jahai which I found really interesting. A spider-shaped... creature, I suppose. It's in the south west corner of Nightfallen Jahai. Pictures added to first post.

They're described as piglike in the magazine that had the Destroyer mini code. However, it's unclear at what point the Tannek became the Destroyers - it's possible that they were given the arthropod appearance in anticipation of being connected to Arachnia or Dhuum for Chapter 4 and were reconcepted when they shifted the storyline focus to the buildup for GW2.

Of course, it's also entirely possible that the storyline for GW2 is what was planned to be done for the second trilogy all along, with the Great Destroyer having been planned as the opponent for Chapter 4 all along and the Ancient Dragons waking up just that much earlier.

And if people want to be precise, spiders and insects are both arthropods, and spiders are certainly insect-like in a number of ways. Nitpicking scientific terms doesn't really help the discussion, though - in fact, Guild Wars treats spiders as insects in the game mechanics (spiders trigger insect hunt bounties, for instance).

Spiders are actually very dissimilar to insects. Insects have six legs and three major body sections (a head, thorax, and abdomen) whereas spiders have eight legs and two major body sections (a head and abdomen).

People hate bugs and arachnids? Anyway who cares either way they are squished under my shoes. But Azazel might have found the arachnophobia reference?

They're still much more closely related, and similar to, each other than, say, either are to any form of vertebrate. I can appreciate the urge to be scientifically accurate (I'm one myself, admittedly in physics rather than biology) but the game calls them all insects.

"Bugs", of course, would probably be a good compromise.

wow, alot to read. i've never really heard of arachnia before, but i was wondering, is it possible that arachnia was abaddons mum? abaddon has spider like claws below his head, and he does have a number of eyes suggesting insect origin. (abaddons dad could have been some weird octopus thing which gave him the tenticles)
abaddon could have inherited the evil gene from arachnia, been her student, and he could have killed her, possibly absorbing her power which links into the web idea. we can assume that he 'killed his children' so he's obviously ruthless and aggressive. the realm of torment was prob arachnias domain + if/when abbadon killed her he not only took over her power, but her realm too. maybe it was simply the 'family estate'

my idea may sound a little strange but i think that it adds up-i hope so anyway.

Its possible he would of took on some of her physical traits when taking her power. Gods can take on any form so we dont know exactly what his true form was.

But its not like Abaddon kills without reason - the case of Abaddons children was that they attempted to takeover his power and failed ending with him killing them. I would think considering Balthazars run in with one of the Canthan Heroes and Grenths solution to the two brothers, that gods have tempers aswell - and your sons and daughters trying to kill you for your power would certainly make you angry.

Oh course Abaddons dead children is scrapped. I would say the chances of Anet useing the Aranchnia idea in the future are better than that of his dead children (since Abaddon is long gone until they run out of ideas)

Great read!
I was thinking, bit of a long shot i know, but it could be a sort of reference to the story of Athena and Arachne.
(you can find it here http://www.greekspider.com/greek_myth/greek_myth4.htm)

I think it's safe to assume what we see in Gandara is fairly close to his true form

has anyone ever considered the artwork in the realm of torment loading screens as a clue?
at a glance, it's all spikes and metal devices that fankly look like methods of torture. the screen features 2 'pillars' both on the right hand side with the one on the left having a spider like feature-near the top there are 8 claw like legs; 4 on the left, 4 on the right, resembling that of a spider. yet another hint at the presence of arachnia. yes, it could just be to mimic torment claws etc but the nuber of the legs is that of a spider, with the positions being that of a spider if the 'pillar' was the body. sorry i couldn't get a photo, i don't know where to find one and wiki doesn't have one, but if you get the chance, just look at the artwork in the realm of torment loading screen.
also, you know how there's that spiders heart landmark, and how all around realm of torment are huge leg like things, could some of theses 'leg-like' things be arachnias, around the spiders heart, or is that just some wishful thinking of mine?

I don't really see the reference other then the whole spider deal, which is too big of a long shot to call a reference. As for the mural, that alone is rather vague and as Free Runner said, the gods can change their form, so that could just be how Abaddon decided to show himself to humans before his exile.

For the loading screen, I think it is more a mimic of the Domain of Fear, not so much of simply the Torment Claws. As for the landmark, I thought I mention The Spider's Heart, along with other Arachnia landmarks (Harvestman's Lair, Arachnia Plateau, and Vale of Shadows. All the Arachnia landmarks seem to be located in the Domain of Fear, of what I have noted.

Here is a map I made of the Domain of Fear's "points of interests," which has all the Arachnia landmarks (note: The "Abaddon's Dead Children" spot is just the most likeliest place in all of the Realm of Torment for that location to be of what I've noted.)

There seem to be many bug-like remnants in the realm of torment. I found this in domain of fear:

Well, as I said, the Domain of Fear seems to be highly spider-like. Most spider things are find there. As for your picture, that is a statue, which is found in Nightfallen Jahai, and at least two places in Domain of Fear *one is on a mountain where you cannot reach*.

People have speculated that it was the statue of Dhuum, I disagree, I think it is just some random statue that Anet put in *if just one was around, I would say it might be The Malignant Shrine, but I think that is just as implausible as a statue to Dhuum. So it might be just some random statue Anet thought of putting in *maybe from a trashed idea*.

that statue's a whopper! spiders...domain of fear....phobia....arachnaphobia

Looking at the realm of torment I would not think it is the original realm of Abbadon. I would rather vote for as was stated before that is the Arachnia kingdom which was taken over by Abbadon. Remnants of insects, insectoid objects and monuments. Torment claws for me are looking like scorpions stingers.

In the Tolkien lore there was spider called Ungoliantha which was corrupting everything she touched (she was an ancestor of Sheloba) and was manifestation of evil. Sheloba was just a big spider when Ungoliatha was quite a powerful being. When main heroes encounter Sheloba Ungoliantha is long time dead and forgothen. For me it resembles the concept Arachnia and Arachni used in GW. One being a god and another being a big dangerous spider in a dungeon. When players encounter Arachni it is just a end dungeon boss when Arachnia is old forgotten a and dead god.

Also here the whole realm of torment is "corrupted" and the corruption was spread to the mortal world. Was the Abbadon source of it or was it Arachnia and Abaddon just continued? I quoted just far fetched similarities but might be that Anet indeed used Tolkien as inspiration and then change their mind trying to be more original and in the last moment replacing Arachnia with a new god. Abbadons hair look like appendages and his head in general resembles an insect I wonder if it was Anet original concept.