Paragon
* "It's just a flesh wound.": functionality changed to: "Remove all conditions from target ally. This skill fails if you have a Deep Wound. Cannot self-target."
* "The Power is Yours!": decreased recharge time to 0; decreased Energy cost to 0; increased adrenaline cost to 4 strikes. Functionality changed to: "(3 seconds.) Allies within earshot gain 0..1 Energy regeneration."
* Soldier's Fury: functionality changed to: "(10..35 seconds.) You attack 33% faster and gain 33% more adrenaline if under the effects of a shout or chant."
* "Save Yourselves!": increased duration to 4..6 seconds.
* "There's Nothing to Fear!": increased damage reduction to 20..35%.
* Spear of Fury: increased damage to 30..40; increased adrenaline gained to 3..6.
New imbagon using soldier's fury? Does the extra IAS over Aggressive Refrain make up for the less adren gain? Make up for it with [[Spear of Fury]?
Especially with the increased duration of [["Save Yourselves!"], I think [[Soldier's Fury] might be a the new Imbagon elite.
Also: * Ebon Battle Standard of Honor: increased duration to 14..20 seconds; increased damage to 8..15; increased damage against Charr to 7..10.
Just something to note.
The Imbagon just got crazy, it was already hugely overpowered and now its just MAAAAAAAAAAAD!
Update 8.8.8 New Imbagon?
distilledwill
bam23
it's definitely a viable alternative
njaguar
It's a viable, more involved alternative.
Pleikki
Yeah should work proper
MisterB
[Aggressive Refrain] + [Focused Anger] > [Soldier's Fury] + whatever shout you use for it. It's an alternative, sure, but not strictly a better one. I'd say it's still worse. You gain 8% attack rate, but you have just +33% adrenaline gain instead of double. You also have to maintain a shout, and spend more energy(and time) refreshing [[Soldier's Fury].
The changes to the PvE skills just increased the values at low rank; most of the maximum values were untouched.
The changes to the PvE skills just increased the values at low rank; most of the maximum values were untouched.
Cathode_Reborn
I find it funny that AR's condition is easier to meet. Most shouts/chants don't actually stick - they often end after being triggered. Of course this isn't really a prob when there's multiple shouters.
Axel Zinfandel
If you really insist on doing this, throw in [Natural Temper]
DarkNecrid
Quote:
Factions
PvE only "Save Yourselves!" (Kurzick)
* 8
Shout. For 3..6 seconds, all other party members gain 100 armor. (Attrib: Kurzick rank)
, I think Soldier's Fury
Nightfall Soldier's Fury
* 5
* 1
* 5
Elite Echo. For 10..30..37 seconds, if you are under the effect of a Chant or a Shout, you attack 33% faster. (Attrib: Leadership)
might be a the new Imbagon elite. They didn't make it last longer, it just lasts longer at lower attributes. It is virtually unchanged at ranks 3 and up.
Racthoh
I like how "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" and "The Power Is Yours!" were made worse.
If I don't care about Cracked Armor on my paragon from Aggressive Refrain it's probably because he isn't getting hit, so if he isn't getting hit I don't really care about IJAFW causing deep wound. Now the skill can fail if someone can throw deep wounds on my paragon often *cough* Wounding Strike *cough*.
The new "The Power Is Yours!" requires 8 motivation to hit the 1 energy regeneration; the old version would return 5 energy at a similar spec. To achieve that same 5 energy with the new version you have to use it 5 times, or 20 strikes of adrenaline. Even with skills that increase adrenaline gain it takes at least 15 seconds to distribute that energy, if you could renew TPIY as soon as it ends. Without any adrenaline boosts that 20 attacks under Aggressive Refrain takes longer than the old version did to recharge, if all 20 of those attacks hit. This is also assuming that you have no other adrenaline skills on your bar. Remember that with the exception of some necromancer spells, all skills that use energy require at least 5. Until you have used the new version 5 times TPIY will not have produced enough energy to power a single spell.
"The Power Is Yours!" is quite abusable with any 'finale' skills with a 4 adrenaline cost and no recharge. Remember "Go For The Eyes!" and "Watch Yourself!", two skills with a 4 adrenaline cost and previously had 0 recharge? Remember the abuse that came from these skills as a result of their spamability?
What was wrong with the old version? Oh right, the -10 energy regeneration on a profession with a primary attribute that provided excessive amounts of energy. I forgot how important energy was on a character that uses adrenaline, and how positive energy sets don't exist.
Soldier's Fury still requires a shout with a 24/7 uptime, so you're still using the same number of skill slots to power your IAS and adrenaline booster as the current imbagon. Looking at the numbers, 25% IAS and 100%+ adrenaline, vs. 33% IAS and 33% more adrenaline conditionally. Now there are two versions of the imbagon, one that uses just Focused Anger with Aggressive Refrain, another that uses "For Great Justice!" to power constant 100% gain with no downtime. In which case that's three skill slots vs. Soldier's Fury + any shout with constant uptime.
Consider your options. The first skill that comes to mind is "They're On Fire!", a conditional skill that reduces damage. Redundant to be frank; you already have "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing To Fear!". Also because of the conditional nature of "They're On Fire!" you must incorporate a source of burning. Now you're using at least three skill slots of the party, the same as the 25% IAS 100% adrenaline gain imbagon version.
A deeper look at the list of all shouts and chants in the game reveals there are no skills with a similar use as "They're On Fire!" (instant cast, 100% uptime). Any options that meet the criteria of 100% uptime halt your throwing briefly, creating possibly gaps in the +100 AL. Ultimately you are put into the same position as the AR/FA/FGJ version of the imbagon, assigning three of the party's skill slots to powering defense.
In a nutshell, this update did nothing but change my 4 second SY to 5 seconds since I'm rank 4. Well time to resume my Baal runs.
If I don't care about Cracked Armor on my paragon from Aggressive Refrain it's probably because he isn't getting hit, so if he isn't getting hit I don't really care about IJAFW causing deep wound. Now the skill can fail if someone can throw deep wounds on my paragon often *cough* Wounding Strike *cough*.
The new "The Power Is Yours!" requires 8 motivation to hit the 1 energy regeneration; the old version would return 5 energy at a similar spec. To achieve that same 5 energy with the new version you have to use it 5 times, or 20 strikes of adrenaline. Even with skills that increase adrenaline gain it takes at least 15 seconds to distribute that energy, if you could renew TPIY as soon as it ends. Without any adrenaline boosts that 20 attacks under Aggressive Refrain takes longer than the old version did to recharge, if all 20 of those attacks hit. This is also assuming that you have no other adrenaline skills on your bar. Remember that with the exception of some necromancer spells, all skills that use energy require at least 5. Until you have used the new version 5 times TPIY will not have produced enough energy to power a single spell.
"The Power Is Yours!" is quite abusable with any 'finale' skills with a 4 adrenaline cost and no recharge. Remember "Go For The Eyes!" and "Watch Yourself!", two skills with a 4 adrenaline cost and previously had 0 recharge? Remember the abuse that came from these skills as a result of their spamability?
What was wrong with the old version? Oh right, the -10 energy regeneration on a profession with a primary attribute that provided excessive amounts of energy. I forgot how important energy was on a character that uses adrenaline, and how positive energy sets don't exist.
Soldier's Fury still requires a shout with a 24/7 uptime, so you're still using the same number of skill slots to power your IAS and adrenaline booster as the current imbagon. Looking at the numbers, 25% IAS and 100%+ adrenaline, vs. 33% IAS and 33% more adrenaline conditionally. Now there are two versions of the imbagon, one that uses just Focused Anger with Aggressive Refrain, another that uses "For Great Justice!" to power constant 100% gain with no downtime. In which case that's three skill slots vs. Soldier's Fury + any shout with constant uptime.
Consider your options. The first skill that comes to mind is "They're On Fire!", a conditional skill that reduces damage. Redundant to be frank; you already have "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing To Fear!". Also because of the conditional nature of "They're On Fire!" you must incorporate a source of burning. Now you're using at least three skill slots of the party, the same as the 25% IAS 100% adrenaline gain imbagon version.
A deeper look at the list of all shouts and chants in the game reveals there are no skills with a similar use as "They're On Fire!" (instant cast, 100% uptime). Any options that meet the criteria of 100% uptime halt your throwing briefly, creating possibly gaps in the +100 AL. Ultimately you are put into the same position as the AR/FA/FGJ version of the imbagon, assigning three of the party's skill slots to powering defense.
In a nutshell, this update did nothing but change my 4 second SY to 5 seconds since I'm rank 4. Well time to resume my Baal runs.
DarkNecrid
TPIY is great for keeping your own energy going if you want to break out an even more expensive spell to use (idk what) since its a spammable +9 (8+1 it gives you)e every ~3s.
Robbert Monga
so where are imbagons used anyway?
Nightow
PvE Elite areas such as FoW/DoA/HM in general.
Luminarus
TPIY looks to me like a GFTE for casters. 1 Energy all around, for a little adrenaline. You then gain the leadership bonus, of lets say 4. However, not rly worth the elite slot still imo.
Horseman Of War
i love how people think pve skills wre actually buffed
DarkSpirit
My N/P was abusing the old [["It's Just A Flesh Wound!"]. It was an odd skill that gives a longer duration of deep wound, the lower your motivation attribute point is, which was great for Plague Sending.
Too bad that abuse has now ended, would have been nice with the new [[Extend Condition].
Too bad that abuse has now ended, would have been nice with the new [[Extend Condition].
isamu kurosawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
My N/P was abusing the old [["It's Just A Flesh Wound!"]. It was an odd skill that gives a longer duration of deep wound, the lower your motivation attribute point is, which was great for Plague Sending.
Too bad that abuse has now ended, would have been nice with the new [[Extend Condition]. What would be the point of a long duration deep wound? If you are using it then you will be expecting your target to die soon.
Too bad that abuse has now ended, would have been nice with the new [[Extend Condition]. What would be the point of a long duration deep wound? If you are using it then you will be expecting your target to die soon.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
What would be the point of a long duration deep wound? If you are using it then you will be expecting your target to die soon.
The point was to cast a long duration Deep Wound from range across multiple targets and heal all conditions from an ally at the same time.
isamu kurosawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
The point was to cast a long duration Deep Wound from range across multiple targets and heal all conditions from an ally at the same time.
A long lasting Dw is useless though. There are also better options for removing mass conditions.
Rhamia Darigaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbert Monga
so where are imbagons used anyway?
anywhere that your team would benefit from having +100 armor
tl;dr: everywhere
tl;dr: everywhere
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
A long lasting Dw is useless though. There are also better options for removing mass conditions.
Yeah, but it is fun for a Mandragor team build.
Time Nexus
Excuse me, whats an Imbagon...?
Lol, sorry, I'm noob. >_<"
Lol, sorry, I'm noob. >_<"
Snow Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time Nexus
Excuse me, whats an Imbagon...?
Lol, sorry, I'm noob. >_<" A paragon using ["there's nothing to fear!"] and ["save yourselves!"]. They also normally have an Increased Attack Speed [IAS] skill and some damage skills.
Lol, sorry, I'm noob. >_<" A paragon using ["there's nothing to fear!"] and ["save yourselves!"]. They also normally have an Increased Attack Speed [IAS] skill and some damage skills.
Time Nexus
What does "Imba" mean then?
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time Nexus
What does "Imba" mean then?
Imbalanced, because ~85% damage reduction is somewhat imbalanced.
Snow Bunny
Imba, meaning 'imbalanced', because the two skills make damage very little. Read the paragon guide (yes, I wrote it, but it'll help you out) and it explains it more.
Time Nexus
Thanks. (^^,)
Abnaxus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Consider your options. The first skill that comes to mind is "They're On Fire!", a conditional skill that reduces damage. Redundant to be frank; you already have "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing To Fear!". Also because of the conditional nature of "They're On Fire!" you must incorporate a source of burning. Now you're using at least three skill slots of the party, the same as the 25% IAS 100% adrenaline gain imbagon version.
A deeper look at the list of all shouts and chants in the game reveals there are no skills with a similar use as "They're On Fire!" (instant cast, 100% uptime). Any options that meet the criteria of 100% uptime halt your throwing briefly, creating possibly gaps in the +100 AL. Ultimately you are put into the same position as the AR/FA/FGJ version of the imbagon, assigning three of the party's skill slots to powering defense. Well, I'm not a "maestro" of the art of imbagon, but I think that there's a shout that meets the SF condition, and that is "Can't touch this!"
Therefore, the build I prefer is as follows:
[Soldier's Fury]["Can't Touch This!"]["There's Nothing To Fear!"]["Go for the Eyes!"][Spear of Fury]["Save Yourselves!"][Merciless Spear][Signet of Return]
Since I'm level 11 Kurzick, SY lasts 6s, and with 8s recharge for SoF it's more than enough to keep the shout up for most of the time.
The main advantage is that I can use TNtF immediately at the start of the battle, having spent only 5+5 energy for SF+CTT, resisting the early spike and then charging the rest of the skills.
BTW, I always have a curse necro hero who spams weakness and cracked armor, so the SoF requirement is always met.
A deeper look at the list of all shouts and chants in the game reveals there are no skills with a similar use as "They're On Fire!" (instant cast, 100% uptime). Any options that meet the criteria of 100% uptime halt your throwing briefly, creating possibly gaps in the +100 AL. Ultimately you are put into the same position as the AR/FA/FGJ version of the imbagon, assigning three of the party's skill slots to powering defense. Well, I'm not a "maestro" of the art of imbagon, but I think that there's a shout that meets the SF condition, and that is "Can't touch this!"
Therefore, the build I prefer is as follows:
[Soldier's Fury]["Can't Touch This!"]["There's Nothing To Fear!"]["Go for the Eyes!"][Spear of Fury]["Save Yourselves!"][Merciless Spear][Signet of Return]
Since I'm level 11 Kurzick, SY lasts 6s, and with 8s recharge for SoF it's more than enough to keep the shout up for most of the time.
The main advantage is that I can use TNtF immediately at the start of the battle, having spent only 5+5 energy for SF+CTT, resisting the early spike and then charging the rest of the skills.
BTW, I always have a curse necro hero who spams weakness and cracked armor, so the SoF requirement is always met.
Snow Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abnaxus
Well, I'm not a "maestro" of the art of imbagon, but I think that there's a shout that meets the SF condition, and that is "Can't touch this!"
Therefore, the build I prefer is as follows:
[Soldier's Fury]["Can't Touch This!"]["There's Nothing To Fear!"]["Go for the Eyes!"][Spear of Fury]["Save Yourselves!"][Merciless Spear][Signet of Return] You're burning your elite in the IAS while using a skill that's pretty much useless. You're also using adrenal skills that will detract from SY! mashing.
That's a pretty bad imbagon bar.
Therefore, the build I prefer is as follows:
[Soldier's Fury]["Can't Touch This!"]["There's Nothing To Fear!"]["Go for the Eyes!"][Spear of Fury]["Save Yourselves!"][Merciless Spear][Signet of Return] You're burning your elite in the IAS while using a skill that's pretty much useless. You're also using adrenal skills that will detract from SY! mashing.
That's a pretty bad imbagon bar.
Richardt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abnaxus
Since I'm level 11 Kurzick, SY lasts 6s, and with 8s recharge for SoF it's more than enough to keep the shout up for most of the time.
Quote:
So the shout GFtE would help compensate energy for not being able to shout?|
The main advantage is that I can use TNtF immediately at the start of the battle, having spent only 5+5 energy for SF+CTT, resisting the early spike and then charging the rest of the skills. I don't know about the rest of you-but I'm able to do this with the "standard" bar. And yes that's with 30 energy. All I do is fire off FGJ and AR right when I enter, and by the time I start fighting I have energy to fire off TNtF. And why do people insist on bringing GFtE on an imbagon bar? If you're going to be burning your adrenaline on another skill, there are better choices-like [[spear of redemption] to keep blind off of you (I've been known to pack [[holy spear] from time to time in Slaver's even). Now that's not to say GFtE is a bad skill, it's just better served being off the imbagon bar and on someone elses.
Lishy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardt
And why do people insist on bringing GFtE on an imbagon bar? If you're going to be burning your adrenaline on another skill, there are better choices-like [[spear of redemption] to keep blind off of you (I've been known to pack [[holy spear] from time to time in Slaver's even). Now that's not to say GFtE is a bad skill, it's just better served being off the imbagon bar and on someone elses.
E-management to keep up TNTF.
SY if an 8 adrenaline skill and without luck, is very hard to use for energy. Paragons are not solely adrenaline users and have skills like Focused Anger, Spear of Lightning, Spear of Fury, and of course, Aggressive Refrain, that just plain saps there energy. At high ranks of Kurzick, GFTE is especially useful on imbagon skillbars because you can still keep up SY, increase dps of party(And minions), as well as the mentioned e-management. Some people deny its usefulness. I, for one, do not. Tyla
^
If you're running out of energy on an Imbagon you're probably bad. 4 hits with FA up, if you're running Orders, 2 hits. As for increasing DPS, minions' crits are barely noticable, and it's alot stronger on another person, such as a Cruel Spear Paragon.
Bobby2
Oh, why the love for [[Soldier's Fury]? I mean back when [[Watch Yourself] was still worth a damn it was decent, but not more.
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
I understand the pitfall though...  Quote: and of course, Aggressive Refrain, that just plain saps there energy.
*shudders*
I mean, WHAT? Don't whine about that when you really only have to cast it once ffs... 
Lishy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Don't whine about that when you really only have to cast it once ffs...
Sometimes you can be in an area where you will come across enemies that use e-denial or vocal minority.Without GFTE, TNTF would be your only skill that upkeeps it. And TNTF can be a little energy demanding at times. Not saying that this is general PvE. However there are some people who just aren't perfect and sometimes slack and not upkeep AR. Nothing less , GFTE is efficient at higher kurzick ranks and it cant by denied. Why not make use of the extra damage it offers? It'd definitely help the hit hard builds. Especially dervishes and hammer warriors :P But I guess in the end, whether to take GFTE depends on your team and where you are. Paragons can have the best physical-support bar in the world, and not being able to do shit because they don't know their team's builds.
My Lipgloss is Cool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
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Not saying that this is general PvE. However there are some people who just aren't perfect and sometimes slack and not upkeep AR.
In the non-general cases, you can compensate other ways (Extra Hex Removal), and with the previously mentioned Sup leadership hat, AR is much easier to keep up, unless you're just not paying attention. And you can't blame for your mistakes, and you shouldn't have to change the build to compensate for such.
I'd rather use Soldier's Fury, "They're On Fire!" and Blazing Finale than waste a skill slot on "Can't Touch This!". At the very least the wasted slots are actually doing something productive both offensively and defensively for the entire party. But then again I really don't care as long as Aggressive Refrain says "kill stuff 25% faster forever".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abnaxus
Since I'm level 11 Kurzick, SY lasts 6s, and with 8s recharge for SoF it's more than enough to keep the shout up for most of the time.
Quote:
"Can't Touch This!" is a terrible skill and I probably overlooked it based solely on that. "They're On Fire!" does something at the very least, even if the additional damage reduction is unnecessary, or we don't even have a source of burning. If the party had other paragons with Aggressive Refrain it would maintain it for them, or trigger the Finale skills if we have a motigon around. I'd rather use Frenzy and a cancel stance than Soldier's Fury with "Can't Touch This!" as it would free your elite slot for something better. |
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
Nothing less , GFTE is efficient at higher kurzick ranks and it cant by denied. Why not make use of the extra damage it offers? It'd definitely help the hit hard builds. Especially dervishes and hammer warriors :P
In places where you can afford to keep up SY and spam GFtE, you don't need it. The extra damage is small and the energy is unneeded. In areas where you can't keep them up, all your adren should be going to SY.
Richardt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
E-management to keep up TNTF.
I'm going to be blunt here-FAIL.
As Tyla already pointed out, if you're having energy management issues, you're doing something wrong. I'll admit when I started Imbagon, I had issues with energy management on him-hence why I ran with Radiants. But after doing it for a bit, I got the feel for it, and I can run it with 25 energy-which can happen in a H/H vanquish. The point is that SY! should be all the energy you need, and wasting adrenaline on GFtE isn't needed. As I pointed out in another thread, you can run with another 3 or 4 adrenaline skill, but for Imbagon there are better choices than GFtE. Now don't get me wrong-I love GFtE and think it's a great skill-just not on an Imbagon.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abnaxus
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I'd rather use Soldier's Fury, "They're On Fire!" and Blazing Finale than waste a skill slot on "Can't Touch This!". At the very least the wasted slots are actually doing something productive both offensively and defensively for the entire party. But then again I really don't care as long as Aggressive Refrain says "kill stuff 25% faster forever".
Quote:
You also don't get to use Ebon Battle Standard of Honor which makes me want to cry.
Quote: Originally Posted by Abnaxus The main advantage is that I can use TNtF immediately at the start of the battle, having spent only 5+5 energy for SF+CTT, resisting the early spike and then charging the rest of the skills. -I can use "There's Nothing To Fear!" at the start of every combat as well if it's recharged.
-Aggressive Refrain is a one time 25 energy cost, Soldier's Fury is 5 energy every 30~ seconds. After a few minutes you've spent more energy to attack faster, and spent a second each time to put it up. At least when I stop for a second to use Ebon Battle Standard of Honor I do so to greatly increase the party's damage.
-Early spike? Pre-prot before engaging, a strategy that has existed long before the paragon was introduced.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kain Fz Without GFTE, TNTF would be your only skill that upkeeps it. And TNTF can be a little energy demanding at times. 12 leadership makes "There's Nothing To Fear!" 9 energy every 20 seconds. Paragon's natural 2 pips works out to 2 energy every 3 seconds; about 13 energy in 20 seconds. If you are faced with a situation where you cannot build adrenaline to shout then I would be using my attack skills sparingly in order to conserve energy. Since we wouldn't be pumping out "Save Yourselves!" I would be far more concerned with keeping the defense in tact; the damage reduction far outweighs the extra damage of Vicious/Lightning/Fury.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kain Fz
Not saying that this is general PvE. However there are some people who just aren't perfect and sometimes slack and not upkeep AR.
I wouldn't trust such a crucial role in the hands of someone who slacks on keeping Aggressive Refrain up.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kain Fz
Nothing less , GFTE is efficient at higher kurzick ranks and it cant by denied.
It grants a larger margin of error at higher ranks. It's a 2 second difference between rank 1 and 12; a whole one attack with a spear. I would not be using that small window to risk "Save Yourselves!" not being filled. If I've already made the rest of the party take additional measures for keeping me clean the last thing I'm going to do is negate their efforts by throwing another variable into the equation. Quote:
Or you bring a standard imbagon and use the extra party slot for something better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abnaxus
| That's a very good answer, the problem which can occur at 12 Leadership is that you have in some cases 1 second margin to use TNtF if you want to keep AR on.
Did you not see the part about bringing a superior leadership helm? At 16 leadership, AR lasts for 26 seconds. Quote:
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