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Originally Posted by Turbobusa
I really don't get why you have SolS since things drop really fast and you have a MB.
That's 5 slots wasted imo, heroes do fine without
Because this team is supposed to work in the hardest areas possible, such as DOA or Slavers and sometimes things go bad, minions die and you start loosing energy. SOLS is to good to drop it.
10 Aug 2008 at 21:33 - 10
lose the MM concept. you have almost the entire team running a high spec in death magic, so just throw bone minions on a 2 or 3 of the necros. that gives you the potential to have well over 10 minions, and dosnt make one character totally useless when there are no corpses.
and get rid of that ele. a N//E can do the same job and spam discord.
Splinter weapon...
10 Aug 2008 at 22:07 - 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
lose the MM concept. you have almost the entire team running a high spec in death magic, so just throw bone minions on a 2 or 3 of the necros. that gives you the potential to have well over 10 minions, and dosnt make one character totally useless when there are no corpses.
doh... so his discord, putrid bile, foul feast, rotting flesh are useless when there are no corpses? Basicly you are saying drop blood of the master and suddenly he becomes more useful? right...
10 Aug 2008 at 22:11 - 12
1 MM is enough. If you want to use Vengeance, I would only let the MM carry it because it would be annoying if the MM took the time to create a 10 minion army when resurrected by Vengeance, only to die from vengeance timeout and lose them all within the next 30s mark.
I would replace the ele with a N/E with points to Earth and use Wards. [[Ward against Melee] is too awesome to miss out of and since yours is a 6-hero build, you cant bring Herta for the wards. If you want a snare, you can use [[grasping earth] as suggested by Cathode or [[Ward against foes].
This also allows you to easily put in anti-knockdown like [[Ward of Stability] in areas that need it.
10 Aug 2008 at 23:39 - 13
For the mm I was almost considering /me for hexeater signet. Since most heroes clump up and theirs only a few single hex removers. But I guess vengeance would be best if put on the mm for the reason above by dark spirit.
Atleast with the earth n/e you can also bring stuff like churning earth as well if your in hm.
Just noticed that ward against melee seems to have been nerfed a while back with 30 second recharge. Wonder why they haven't buffed it back to a regular 20 second recharge or something now that theirs the pve/pvp split.
11 Aug 2008 at 00:39 - 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
doh... so his discord, putrid bile, foul feast, rotting flesh are useless when there are no corpses? Basicly you are saying drop blood of the master and suddenly he becomes more useful? right...
why do you need a MM at all? right now, there is one character mostly devoted to minions. sure he can spam discord, but so does everyone else. rotting flesh sucks. and foul feast can still be spammed, but its not that great having one char with all of your team's conditions when infuse condition dosnt do anything.
wouldn't it be better to spare 1 skill slot on (example here) 3 characters for a summon skill? that way instead of having an army of 10 minions you could get 24 (12 spec). at the same time when your party goes into an area with little/no corpses the effectiveness of one character is not drastically affected.
In a normal party the entire team dosnt have 12 points in death magic already, so it makes sense to have a dedicated MM, but when you have almost the entire party capable of raising and maintaining high-level minions it makes more sense to spread the job around.
11 Aug 2008 at 02:06 - 15
For a build, you don't want three or more necromancers wasting time casting bone minions. Having 10 or 100 low lvl bone minions won't matter most of the time seeing as most hard areas have aoe damage. They are just there to take the initial aggro and do some extra damage with death nova.
Not really much reason to have so many minions unless you wanted fiends with mark of pain. But even then 25 energy for all the heroes is really annoying.
11 Aug 2008 at 02:19 - 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
For a build, you don't want three or more necromancers wasting time casting bone minions. Having 10 or 100 low lvl bone minions won't matter most of the time seeing as most hard areas have aoe damage. They are just there to take the initial aggro and do some extra damage with death nova.
Not really much reason to have so many minions unless you wanted fiends with mark of pain. But even then 25 energy for all the heroes is really annoying.
minions dont do enough damage to be worth the energy. they do, however make an increadible wall so that if you were to run a group with 6+ casters (hint, hint look at the OP), enemy melee will never touch your backline. and when you are making a wall of minions, the more the merrier.
11 Aug 2008 at 02:45 - 17
I understand, but a wall of 200 minions won't make a bit of difference if your enemies will destroy them as quickly as a wall of 10 minions. Not to mention they are their for distraction while you quickly spike down most of the enemies before they finish off your minions.
A minion wall isn't your only defense, you still have optional utilities such as wards, aegis, healers, you could bring shadow of fear and already have enfeebling blood.
It's not that uncommon for me to spike down half the group by the time the minions are dead.
11 Aug 2008 at 03:16 - 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
I understand, but a wall of 200 minions won't make a bit of difference if your enemies will destroy them as quickly as a wall of 10 minions. Not to mention they are their for distraction while you quickly spike down most of the enemies before they finish off your minions.
A minion wall isn't your only defense, you still have optional utilities such as wards, aegis, healers, you could bring shadow of fear and already have enfeebling blood.
It's not that uncommon for me to spike down half the group by the time the minions are dead.
was there a point in here that I missed? you have multiple layers of defense.... yes... and strengthening them is bad because...?
11 Aug 2008 at 03:20 - 19
Having heroes fighting over corpses instead of killing your enemies is not a good thing would be the main point.
There is enough meatshields with 10 minions as there would be with 20+. It is just that having 3 characters summoning minions and fighting over corpses is worse than having 1 summon new minions while the other 2 continue fighting.
11 Aug 2008 at 04:24 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
Having heroes fighting over corpses instead of killing your enemies is not a good thing would be the main point.
hopeless... haha
11 Aug 2008 at 05:24 - 21
If I have to take 1 hero to use another elite other than Discord I would choose the MM.
If you think Rotting Flesh is bad because it is a 3s cast, then animation bone minions is just as bad. When a corpse becomes available, the MM spends time animating minions rather than spamming discord. At least with Rotting Flesh once an enemy is diseased, it spreads and they wont cast it on a target that is already diseased. But since the other heroes can help cover with the discord spamming, the effect is not that bad. In discord build, everything is targeted to support discord one way or another, so the poison from minion bombing also serves that purpose. Having that one MM helps with that purpose.
You dont need too many MMs because the ultimate goal is to spam discord to kill as fast as possible, not create a > 10 minion wall, otherwise it should be called minionway instead of discordway.
11 Aug 2008 at 05:33 - 22
Here's what me and a friend of mine have been using when we play together. It varies quite a bit tho since we change the builds depending on what we are facing.
[Heal 1;OAhjUoGYIPxsMm0cyNMHnV1kLA]
Sab's rit... just put discord in for damage.
[Curse 1;OAhkUoG5xJqTMDRwGsDfCMWVN5C]
AoE hex spammer obviously suffering is a useless hex but fact that it hits multiple foes makes it worth while.
[MM;OANDUslfOxsqAaAPEQqHvuqK]
Another sab build with a different elite.
[Cursel 2;OAhDUqhHTxM2BWClBMi7OVVJXA]
Secondary curse necro with some more useful curses.
[Heal 2;OAhjUoGYIPxsMm0cyNMreV1kLA]
Another rit for healing... put recuperation in there instead of life.
[Earth Ele;OgdTkYW6zJVgMWgMtTRrAW8KAA]
AP Earth warder.
We were running two mm's at one point but found it wasn't really that advantageous. So we started testing out that earth ele. So far the hero AI seems to be pretty good at using assassin's promise...and even when he doesn't he has those great wards which make him worth while.
[Nec Earth;OAZDUshpSxMqBKgnOtCwCvCVVA]
Also been trying out this nec with wards he seems decent as well.
11 Aug 2008 at 05:52 - 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside
..snip..
Nice, that 6-heroes discord build is most similar to what I also use, right now.
Extinguish is nice for certain areas with lots of burning/disease, but for most places I replace it with Foul Feast instead.
11 Aug 2008 at 06:01 - 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
blah, blah, blah.
The point is not having 24 minions, thats a bonus. the point is that having one character spending all his time on minions when you could have 3 doing it while still filling other roles is just stupid. A single MM is not optimal, minions are spawned slowly and are bound and limited to a single character.when you spread the job out you basically gain that character, that was spending all his time on minions, who can now fill another role.
11 Aug 2008 at 06:07 - 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
The point is not having 24 minions, thats a bonus. the point is that having one character spending all his time on minions when you could have 3 doing it while still filling other roles is just stupid. A single MM is not optimal, minions are spawned slowly and are bound and limited to a single character.when you spread the job out you basically gain that character, that was spending all his time on minions, who can now fill another role.
Like I have said, Animate Bone Minion is a 3s cast, whenever a corpse appear all 3 heroes would be competing for it rather than spending time spamming discord. A single MM is all that you would need and MM would not stop at 10 minions, they keep casting even after they maxed out, replacing old minions with the new ones.
11 Aug 2008 at 06:09 - 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Like I have said, Animate Bone Minion is a 3s cast, whenever a corpse appear all 3 heroes would be competing for it rather than spending time spamming discord. A single MM is all that you would need.
corpses do not always appear 1 at a time, and heroes will Never start casting a summon as soon as something dies. have you ever played with heroes before?
11 Aug 2008 at 06:14 - 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
corpses do not always appear 1 at a time, and heroes will Never start casting a summon as soon as something dies. have you ever played with heroes before?
Why do you have to resort to insults and flames first whenever someone disagrees with you?
In a discord build where it is single-targeting, corpses do tend to appear 1 at a time in general.
11 Aug 2008 at 06:21 - 28
I guess I will have to change the ele for something else but I dont like wards cause heroes dont care about them at all, even if you flag them they will get out of it as soon as some damage hits them.
And I think I will put jagged bones on the mm for the additional minions and bleeding.
Oh and about vengeance, I put it there cause there wasnt any better res for that hero since he has no points in healing. I make sure to keep it disabled so he doesnt do anything stupid with it like resing mm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
corpses do not always appear 1 at a time, and heroes will Never start casting a summon as soon as something dies. have you ever played with heroes before?
Actually yes they will summon a minion asap if they are not doin anything else at the moment. Your idea is terrible and I for sure will not use more than one MM.
11 Aug 2008 at 06:28 - 29
Lotus, no need to bother responding any more. We disagree with using more than one character with a minion spell. You may do whatever you want, and if other people decide it's a good idea they can do the same.
Anyways, once I am not lazy I will get a copy of all the templates I have been trying and will look for improvement. Basically 2 curse necros with restoration heals, one bringing suffering and weaken armor the other having shadow of fear and enfeebling blood. Mainly so I won't have one doing all the hexing and it's split up so they cast quickly and get to their discord spam.
Also have the n/mo healer, protecter and mm from above. With an additional n/rt healer for the most part. Probably overkill for now, would perhaps like to try an n/e with churning earth, ward against melee, ward against foes and some other utilities.
11 Aug 2008 at 07:55 - 30
I'm running a couple of copies of malign intervention with one char with verata's gaze.
bigger minion wall, no corpse fighting, hex, healing reduction.
11 Aug 2008 at 08:04 - 31
I kinda think that 4/5 discord spikers is more than enough, 3 is usually enough to take down a foe very quickly. I've been trying to come up with a 6 man build and this is what Ive concocted:
[build prof=N box curse=9+1 soul=9+1 death=12+1+1][Discord][Weaken Armor][Enfeebling Blood][Defile Defenses][Barbs][Suffering][Signet Of Lost Souls][Rip Enchantment][/build]
[Build prof=N/Mo box soul=9+1 Death Magic=12+1+3 protect=10][Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Feast For The Dead][Aegis][Protective Spirit][Reverse Hex][Signet Of Lost Souls][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt box Soul=9+1 Death=12+1+1 Restoration=10][Discord][rotting flesh][Putrid Bile][Weapon Of Warding][Protective Was Kaolai][Life][Signet Of Lost Souls][Flesh Of My Flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt box Soul=9+1 Death=12+1+1 Channeling=10][Discord][Rising Bile][Vile Miasma][Splinter Weapon][Ancestors' Rage][Destruction][Signet Of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo box Death=12+1+3 SoulReaping=9+1 Healing=10][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Infuse Condition][FOul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Cure Hex][Signet Of Lost Souls][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt box Soulreaping=12+1+1 Restoration=12][Xinrae's Weapon][Weapon Of Warding][Mend Body And Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Signet Of Sorrow][Signet Of Lost Souls][Death Pact SIgnet][/build]
Prot, Healing Prayers, Weakness and 2 Restoration Magic peeps means theres plenty of healing. Whilst 4 discord + hexes and minions means things go down faaaaaaaast.
11 Aug 2008 at 08:35 - 32
The destruction spirit is a nice touch, especially since with a foul feast infuse condition mm we don't need recovery. Since I am starting to run with my save yourselves paragon instead of assassin's promise (partner uses that) I will consider getting rid of my restoration support for a channeler. Noticed the spirit's radius is about the size of well/ward which isn't much. But most likely will help against any form of melee trying to get towards your characters. Plus they'll most likely go after the low life spirit.
Though, with save yourselves I will note that protective spirit doesn't seem to be required for anything. I did the hm disc of chaos as well as that one battle with the norn group and stood right in the middle of it all. Only had a single death which was the mm (most likely after a sacrifice from blood of the master). Also did warband of brothers in hm and didn't bother with interrupts or pulling at the final boss + the big statue things. Just ran right into them all and save yourselves kept everything under control.
11 Aug 2008 at 08:43 - 33
I've never considered any nec an "MM" in the setup I use. Death Nova, animate spells, BotM, are all put on different heroes so they all basically work as one MM. I found this useful cause it doesn't "force" one hero to constantly be animating and managing the minions.
After the first kill, I do sometimes notice all 3 heroes stop to make a minion. The rest of the time it never really happens because they all become busy doing other things or their animate spell is still recharging. This is why I usually avoid Animate spells with 5sec recharges - I don't want any of them to spend too much time casting minion-related stuff.
11 Aug 2008 at 15:31 - 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by distilledwill
I kinda think that 4/5 discord spikers is more than enough, 3 is usually enough to take down a foe very quickly. I've been trying to come up with a 6 man build and this is what Ive concocted:
[build prof=N box soul=12+1 death=12+1+1][Discord][Weaken Armor][Enfeebling Blood][Defile Defenses][Barbs][Suffering][Signet Of Lost Souls][Rip Enchantment][/build]
6 curse skills with 0 to curse?
You effectively only have 1 spike healer the other is just kaolai and weapon of warding? How well does that do in low or zero corpse areas?
I would replace one of your MMs with another restore healer proper and decrease the dependence on corpses.
If you search Sab's thread, in the past, I proposed replacing her restore healer with another MM for a dual MM build. I tested it and it works better as long as corpses are plentiful. Having more minions reduces the need for heals, and you can even kill faster. But Sab rejected it because of its dependence on corpses in low corpse areas, so I have been on the dual MM side of the argument before.
11 Aug 2008 at 16:07 - 35
Very similar to an earth hero that I've been tinkering with.
But why not use [ward of weakness] instead of [ward against elements]? Does [ward against elements] really help much?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside
[Earth Ele;OgdTkYW6zJVgMWgMtTRrAW8KAA]
AP Earth warder.
We were running two mm's at one point but found it wasn't really that advantageous. So we started testing out that earth ele. So far the hero AI seems to be pretty good at using assassin's promise...and even when he doesn't he has those great wards which make him worth while.
11 Aug 2008 at 18:19 - 36
Here's my attempt to make a Discord team:
Hero #1, N/Mo, death magic, soul reaping, protection
[discord][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][aegis][signet of lost souls][blood of the master][protective spirit]
This is basically the Sabway MM but with [discord] as his elite, though frankly I think [jagged bones] is fine since you still have five other heroes spamming [discord]. That will give you more minions for your buddy's [dwayna's sorrow], too. Either way, lots of minions to drive your necro machine.
Hero #2, N/Rt, death magic, soul reaping, curses
[discord][foul feast][plague sending][enfeebling blood][barbs][defile defenses][weaken armor][death pact signet]
It eats conditions with [foul feast] and then sends them back out with [plague sending]. Also spams lots of cheap hexes. You can use [rigor mortis] instead of [defile defenses] if you prefer. For the last hex, you could substitute [suffering] for its slightly larger AoE effect if you prefer, but I think it's a weak skill.
Hero #3, N/Me, death magic, soul reaping, illusion magic
[discord][fragility][epidemic][hypochondria][clumsiness][soothing images][shrinking armor][resurrection signet]
Creates tons and tons of conditions.
Hero #4, N/Rt, death magic, soul reaping, restoration magic
[discord][weapon of warding][mend body and soul][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][weapon of shadow][foul feast]
Basically the Sabway N/Rt healer, but with [discord] as the elite. And [weapon of shadow] helps spread blind.
Hero #5, N/Mo, death magic, soul reaping, healing prayers
[discord][dwayna's sorrow][signet of rejuvenation][dwayna's kiss][heal area][heal party][signet of lost souls][vengeance]
The best way to take advantage of [dwayna's sorrow] is to make a healing prayers N/Mo and stick it on there. If you think it's overkill to have both [heal area] and [heal party], you could use something like [patient spirit] for one of them. But you can put more expensive things on here than you would with a primary Mo hero.
Hero #6, N/Rt, death magic, soul reaping, curses, channeling magic
[discord][splinter weapon][bloodsong][painful bond][mark of pain][rotting flesh][rip enchantment][death pact signet]
This guy has to do a lot of different things, so don't go crazy with death magic here. High rank in curses isn't very important either.
11 Aug 2008 at 20:16 - 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
6 curse skills with 0 to curse?
You effectively only have 1 spike healer the other is just kaolai and weapon of warding? How well does that do in low or zero corpse areas?
I would replace one of your MMs with another restore healer proper and decrease the dependence on corpses.
If you search Sab's thread, in the past, I proposed replacing her restore healer with another MM for a dual MM build. I tested it and it works better as long as corpses are plentiful. Having more minions reduces the need for heals, and you can even kill faster. But Sab rejected it because of its dependence on corpses in low corpse areas, so I have been on the dual MM side of the argument before.
Ooops.. missed out the curse attribute. Ill change it in a second. The healing is plentiful considering there's prots, minor heals from Dwayna's, weakness, the secondary healer (yes, just WoW and Kaolai) and a minion wall. Bear in mind that I play as a BHA ranger, I focus on the damaging casters effectively taking them out of the game. I always try to take agro on myself whilst under Prot Spirit.
11 Aug 2008 at 20:34 - 38
I'm glad that everyone's sharing their thoughts, but I have a specific question.
I put this build together mostly for DOA, since elite areas is the only thing that's left for me in this game (pve-wise). Considering this, I need powerful hex removals, and the regular ones are simply not enough.
I need you guys to help me with Divert hexes build. This is what I have in mind:
[build prof=N/Mo pve name="Divert" box soul=10+1+1 prot=12 curse=8][Divert hexes][aegis][remove hex][Signet of Lost Souls][vocal minority][rip enchantment][envenom enchantments][resurrection signet][/build]
I don't want him to have prot spirit since 2 spammable 10e spells is to much for a hero (maybe if I keep it disabled). Vocal Minority is there cause I had no better idea (it's prolly better to leave an open spot lolz). I'll be glad if you help me make that guy better. thx
Also do heroes chain aegis? Or will they go stupid and cast it in the same moment?
11 Aug 2008 at 20:59 - 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Dawg
Very similar to an earth hero that I've been tinkering with.
But why not use [ward of weakness] instead of [ward against elements]? Does [ward against elements] really help much?
I did try [ward of weakness] but with two curse necros with [enfeebling blood] I didn't think it was needed. As for [ward against elements] I figured it couldn't hurt but I'm still testing it out.
11 Aug 2008 at 22:02 - 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by distilledwill
Ooops.. missed out the curse attribute. Ill change it in a second. The healing is plentiful considering there's prots, minor heals from Dwayna's, weakness, the secondary healer (yes, just WoW and Kaolai) and a minion wall. Bear in mind that I play as a BHA ranger, I focus on the damaging casters effectively taking them out of the game. I always try to take agro on myself whilst under Prot Spirit.
Like I said, you can reduce the need for healing by bringing another MM and I have done that to Sab's build myself, Dwayna's on more minions can cover most of it. But that increases your reliance on corpses.
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