What'd I miss?

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

30 Aug 2008 at 21:52 - 1
Until I mained my Paragon and aimed for r1 People Know Me, I mained my Assassin.
Seeing how many people are using em these days, I am kinda starting to miss mine.
Especially since I have been using AP on nearly all of my characters and I want to try out AP on the assassin itself(If anyone has builds, please post ^-^)

Anyways, Any news with Assassin's over the past few months? I keep hearing "Perma-sin this, perma-sin that."
All I know is Sin's being the master of weapons and their SY spam

Light Aura

Light Aura

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Aug 2008

A/

30 Aug 2008 at 22:14 - 2
Um AP sins aren't that great

But now sins aren't the master of all weps quite as much with the nerf to [way of the assassin] making it only usable for daggers

and finally yes perma-sins are quite good now because you can make sf last forever again. Th ecombo is [glyph of swiftness] + [deadly paradox] + [shadow form]

FlamingMetroid

FlamingMetroid

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

standing on your last control point, while the rest of your team is to busy killing mine

The Luminaries [Lumi]

A/

30 Aug 2008 at 22:49 - 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Aura
display of lack of knowledge lolwut? perma sin should only be used for farming and [way of the assassin] was never used anyway because of [way of the master]...

spam MS/DB with [Save Yourselves] and/or [asuran scan] for best results

AP builds are ok, and have become more powerful because of the [asuran scan] buff, but dont really see much use outside of NM. Scythe sins are also pretty fun, and even effective in easier HM areas.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

30 Aug 2008 at 22:52 - 4
Scythe crits are awesome. Pair it with a sundering, you get sundercrits a few times, and it's super awesome.

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

31 Aug 2008 at 00:43 - 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Scythe crits are awesome. Pair it with a sundering, you get sundercrits a few times, and it's super awesome. I am a bit skepitcal about the sundering mod. Can you explain its usefulness even with an activation of 20%?

Molock

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Qu??bec

Legacy of Angels [Halo]

E/

31 Aug 2008 at 05:44 - 6
A sundering hit with a scythe is nice, even more so when you also critical. That's why its useful imo. Big domages ftw

Edit: Also, what other mod would you recommend for a scythe (on an assassin)? Don't say elemental damage scythe because you should one of those anyway

snaek

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

31 Aug 2008 at 05:48 - 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
I am a bit skepitcal about the sundering mod. Can you explain its usefulness even with an activation of 20%? a scythe crit is the -highest- normal attack dmg possible in teh game
and therefore takes the most bonus dmg from a sundering mod

aside from teh bigger bonus dmg
scythe sins generally do not have an ias (unless pve)...
and cannot take full advantage of a vamp mod

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

31 Aug 2008 at 06:15 - 8
vamp still adds far more DPS than a sundering mod. you shouldnt bother with sundering unless you are spiking in PvP.

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

31 Aug 2008 at 06:49 - 9
Vamp as a second scythe mod. Stay with sundering for the rest.
Anyway if you go crit scythe bring a chanelling/smite ritualist along, JI makes up for the elemental scythe

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

31 Aug 2008 at 08:59 - 10
Any updates with the A/R and A/P builds?
I think I've seen some new Assassin builds that use Incidinary(SP?) Arrows.

And I still think the percentage of sundering is too low to be of any usage..

Steps_Descending

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

31 Aug 2008 at 11:44 - 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
And I still think the percentage of sundering is too low to be of any usage.. That's probably true, but I'd be denpted to say that the point of sundering is to make the biggest crit in the game, even if it only happen once in 15 hit (random number).

By the way, to those who use it, how often do you crit in PvE (and where) and how much damage is a sunder-crit?

EDIT : after a quick searsh from GuildWiki, at 12 scythe mastery and 12+1+2 critical strike.

You have about 19% of crit from SMastery
15% from CriticalStrike
33% from WotMaster
15% from CritEye

That would mean 80% vs a lv20 target. 4 hits out of 5. If sunder kicks in 20% : 4 hits out of 25. (aprox : 1 out of 6).
Since vamp adds 5 dmg, a sunder crit must add 30 dmg to be on par with vamp.

That is vs a near-lv20 target, and considering the crit chances stack instead of combine(like blocking chance), and of course the efficiency decreases with higher lvl...
On a brighter note, siphon strenght adds 33% without points in Deadly Arts.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

31 Aug 2008 at 15:42 - 12
Vamp will always output more DPS. i dont know why any of you are advocating sundering...

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

31 Aug 2008 at 15:52 - 13
Because targets die so fast I can't DPS.
It's more something like a constant spiking. Thus sundering. When I go critscythe, I (again, usually) hit my target 3 times. Wounding strike, mystic, malicious, dead.
Vamp gives me 9 damage.
Woohoo, not gonna make a difference.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

31 Aug 2008 at 15:54 - 14
Because sundercrits on scythes are loldamage.

@Turbobusa: It will actually give you 27 damage if you're counting all 9 hits.

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

31 Aug 2008 at 16:25 - 15
True, forgot the 3 targets. But where vampiric gives 9 life steal, it also gives 50% chance to have just one of those hits have sundering trigger.

With the very high crit chances you have, it is about 40% of the time you're going to sundercrit.

But that's assuming you hit 3 targets at a time.
It just shows that in the case of a single target, it is going to die too fast for vamp to have a decisive effect, and in the case of 3 targets touched, well it is outdone by sundering (Lol I can't event imagine saying that 2 years ago)

Again go with whatever you want, but from my experience mobs die too fast for vamp to have a noticable effect.

The Meth

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

31 Aug 2008 at 16:45 - 16
When combined with aura of holy might sundering is quite effective. With all of the multiplications to base damage going on that boost sundering but not vampiric (max damage + 41% (critical) + 15% + 20% (mods) + 41-75% (AoHM)) sundering can hit some very high numbers.

Sundering criticals (10% chance per hit assuming 50% critical rate) will do about 35 extra damage against 60 armor, while a non-critical sundering attack adds about 15 damage on average. Total, thats 5 extra damage per hit average, assuming max titles and against an armor of 60. Vampiric will do better as armor increases, while Sundering gains if you have a higher critical rate (using malicious strike or you add another buff).

Sundering sucks ass on everything else though.

snaek

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

31 Aug 2008 at 17:00 - 17
ummm....vamp scythe is -5

vamps -best- situation is when used wit 33%ias

sunders -best- situation is a scythe crit


a crit scythe sin's typical attack = a non-ias'd sunder crit

sooooo...thats y a sunder mod -should- be better

if it is indeed not....
sundering mod re-buff plz?


----

for numbers (vs 60al target):

9-41 dmg scythe

78 dmg crit

96 dmg sunder crit


(if my calcs r correct)
crits = max dmg * 1.4142
sunder = crit dmg * 1.2311
and then add 15% inscr, +20% customization

The Meth

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

31 Aug 2008 at 17:25 - 18
Vamp absolutely beats sundering unless you are using [Aura of Holy Might], preferably at a fairly high rank. Also every scythe sin worth their salt should be using [Critical Agility], both sundering and vampiric get the same 50% damage boost from IAS btw.

snaek

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

31 Aug 2008 at 17:43 - 19
sundering charrslayer scythe + [vow of strength] + [aura of holy might] + [asuran scan] gogogo

The Meth

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

31 Aug 2008 at 18:10 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by snaek
sundering charrslayer scythe + [vow of strength] + [aura of holy might] + [asuran scan] gogogo Nah, drop the charrslayer and get a demonslayer, then add in another 40% lightbringer bonus, then another 25% from By Ural's Hammer!. Have an ally cast Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, res you with vengeance, then buff you with Great Dwarf Weapon. If Mallyx couldn't remove hexes or enchantments I bet you could smack him down in 10 seconds.

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

31 Aug 2008 at 20:44 - 21
I thought you cannot get a demonslayer mod in NF? Which means no spear/scythe mod?

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

31 Aug 2008 at 20:44 - 22
I thought you cannot get a demonslayer mod in NF? Which means no spear/scythe mod?

petrorabbit

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

01 Sep 2008 at 18:03 - 23
For Vamp vs Sundering, it boils down to this.

Vamp for constant damage, and Sundering for spike damage.

Vamp gets boosted from IAS, because faster attacks = more vamp triggers. This is why Vamp is good on daggers for their fast attacks and chance to double strike.

Sundering will get boosted by anything that modifies damage. This includes Aura of Holy Might, Asuran Scan, anything that will improve your crit percentage.

Since we're talking about a scythe here, which attacks slow compared to most other weapons, but has the highest top end damage of all weapons, I'm going to say sundering is better.

Bobby2

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

01 Sep 2008 at 21:04 - 24
...really? Vamp triggering on every target justifies itself pretty fast, even despite the Scythe's attack rate. Doesn't Sundering proc separately for each target hit?

Between AoHM and Scan though I can see why Vamp would matter little, and even rare Sunder procs stack up

petrorabbit

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

01 Sep 2008 at 23:35 - 25
I guess you can look at it this way also.

Due to the nature of crit scythe builds, there should always be some kind of crit boosting skills on your bar(way of the master, critical eye). Because of the 20% armor penetration, sundering increases with effectiveness the higher your base damage is on your weapons. This is why Sundering is great on scythes, but not so great on daggers. On a critical hit, the bonus damage you get from armor penetration is also factored in. Add Aura of Holy Might, and Asuran Scan, suddenly you have a significant boost in damage. Also, with a 20/20 scythe, 20% is about 1 every 5 hits, which isn't that rare. The sweet spot is how often you will get that sunder proc to overlap your successful critical hits.

Vamp on the other hand is the same damage on every attack, regardless of your weapon's base damage. The damage from vamp is the same if you hit normally, or if you get a critical hit. Usually the faster your attacks(IAS, double strike) with vamp, the more vamp will trigger, and the more damage you will do. Even in your example, vamp hitting 3 targets will trigger.

If you have a dervish, you can test the difference in damage between a non-crit, and crit attack with sundering. Take a dervish/warrior, with Wild Blow (auto crit), Asuran Scan, and Aura of Holy might. Use a Sundering Scythe and you can compare your top end damage, dps, or whatever strikes your fancy. .

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

02 Sep 2008 at 07:19 - 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrorabbit
For Vamp vs Sundering, it boils down to this.

Vamp for constant damage, and Sundering for spike damage.

Vamp gets boosted from IAS, because faster attacks = more vamp triggers. This is why Vamp is good on daggers for their fast attacks and chance to double strike.

Sundering will get boosted by anything that modifies damage. This includes Aura of Holy Might, Asuran Scan, anything that will improve your crit percentage.

Since we're talking about a scythe here, which attacks slow compared to most other weapons, but has the highest top end damage of all weapons, I'm going to say sundering is better. vamp still adds more damage. on every weapon. the only reasonable circumstance for using sundering is during an axe/hammer/scythe spike when the extra few DPS dosnt make a big difference, but sundering kicking in could make or break the spike. there are no other situations in the game where sundering beats vamp.

petrorabbit

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

02 Sep 2008 at 14:29 - 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
vamp still adds more damage. on every weapon. the only reasonable circumstance for using sundering is during an axe/hammer/scythe spike when the extra few DPS dosnt make a big difference, but sundering kicking in could make or break the spike. there are no other situations in the game where sundering beats vamp. Considering most other weapons attack every 1.33 seconds, then yes, vamp does add more damage over hammers/scythes which attack at 1.75. I did say vamp is better for dps, which is what you aim for in pressure. That's why IAS will boost vamp triggers, while damage boosting(critical hits, AS, AoHM) better affects 20/20 sundering. 20% is 1 out of every 5 hits which is more often than you're implying.

As for "no other situations in game where sundering beats vamp", lets put this into perspective.

You only use vamp when you're doing attack damage.

You only use sundering when you're doing attack damage.

You mentioned sundering is better than vamp when spiking.

The only other situation really is pressure.

Is there another method of attack damage with vamp(other than spiking and pressure) that i'm not aware of that you can educate me on?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

02 Sep 2008 at 14:44 - 28
You'll be critting on almost every hit with the scythe, and if that sundering mod kicks in you get one huge burst of damage. Plus the fact every swing of your scythe is almost the same as a spike without deep wound.

Steps_Descending

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

03 Sep 2008 at 01:44 - 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
You'll be critting on almost every hit with the scythe Sorry tyla but if Crit chances doesnt stack but combine (like block chances), I doubt you can get much highter than 70% (2/3 hit), which is indeed almost every hit.
But that is against a lv20. If you use that in PvE the chances will go down pretty fast.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

03 Sep 2008 at 02:19 - 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steps_Descending
Sorry tyla but if Crit chances doesnt stack but combine (like block chances), I doubt you can get much highter than 70% (2/3 hit), which is indeed almost every hit.
But that is against a lv20. If you use that in PvE the chances will go down pretty fast. u r wrong.

dont argue with people that have actually tried something.

petrorabbit

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

03 Sep 2008 at 02:38 - 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steps_Descending
Sorry tyla but if Crit chances doesnt stack but combine (like block chances), I doubt you can get much highter than 70% (2/3 hit), which is indeed almost every hit.
But that is against a lv20. If you use that in PvE the chances will go down pretty fast.
It depends on the skill really. Way of the Assassin, Way of the Master, and Critical Eye do have "additional" or "+" in their wording, indicating an additive stacking. Critical Defense and Flashing Blades do not have "additional" or "+" in their wording, indicating multiplicative stacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
u r wrong.

dont argue with people that have actually tried something. Maybe you should show him proof that he's wrong instead of posting opinionated dribble that flushes your credibility down the toilet?

snaek

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

03 Sep 2008 at 02:46 - 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steps_Descending
Sorry tyla but if Crit chances doesnt stack but combine (like block chances), I doubt you can get much highter than 70% (2/3 hit), which is indeed almost every hit.
But that is against a lv20. If you use that in PvE the chances will go down pretty fast. [way of the master] [critical eye]

if u read skill descriptions, it says "additional"

if u use concise, it will say "+3...27...33%"


so its adding, not multiplying


dam petro...beat me to it x__x

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

03 Sep 2008 at 08:44 - 33
I'm not sure the wording is exact either.
By using the old WotA, WotM, critical eyes and ridiculous attributes in critical strikes and weaponmastery, you theorically go beyong 100%

But you do not crit all the time.

However the crit chances stay VERY high even facing lvl 30 mobs.

petrorabbit

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

03 Sep 2008 at 14:23 - 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
I'm not sure the wording is exact either.
By using the old WotA, WotM, critical eyes and ridiculous attributes in critical strikes and weaponmastery, you theorically go beyong 100%

But you do not crit all the time.

However the crit chances stay VERY high even facing lvl 30 mobs. One theory suggests there could be a cap on critical hit percentage, maybe somewhere around 80%-90%. It sounds plausible since there is a cap on IAS and IMS percentages, but there really is no official word on it.

illidan009

illidan009

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2008

Volterra, Italy

A/

03 Sep 2008 at 19:57 - 35
quick go permasin and farm your ass off.