+15% dmg daggers

i read a while ago that % Ups on daggers are useless because the dmg + is on the min dmg, so its like...a tiny amount of improvement.

can anyone confirm or deny this?

The reason you hear this is because daggers have the lowest max damage, 7-17. Even at 17, +15% only makes it 19.55 damage.

If you search here you'll find a big argument on 15^50 or +5e for daggers, both have pretty legitimate arguments. Matter of taste really.

Edit: see what I mean about the argument?

I can confirm that the +15% does not apply to the bonus damage added by attack skills. Zelgadissan is correct that it all comes down to a matter of personal preference.

It is personal preference. It is also opinion. I am one of the people who feel the 15% damage is less useful than the extra energy from a +5 energy mod.

Damage from daggers comes from the skills, but the weapon. The extra damage from an inscription like "Strength and Honor" or "Guilded by Fate" only applys to the weapon damage (7-17), not to the skill damage. Since the weapon damage is so low compared to other weapons, it isn't worth it (in my opinion).

Take a look at a comparison between Daggers and Bows. 7-17 is only 2 points above the 15-28 on the min-max ratio. The MAXIMUM damage a dagger would do is 17, while the MINIMUM damage a bow would do is 15. Because of this, using attack skills is what you rely on for damage.

The damage daggers do is not increased by 15% since the damage is coming from attack skills. Don't get me wrong, a set of daggers with a Strength and Honor inscription would do +15% damage. But that increase is small, so people do not rely on it. They rely on the skill damage, which is not affected by the inscription.

15% of 7 = 1.05. Which makes the minimum damage of daggers with a 15% increase 8.05
15% of 17 = 2.55. Which makes the maximum damage of daggers with a 15% increase 19.55.

Daggers with an extra 15%:
8-20 (rounded)

Bow WITHOUT an extra 15%:
15-28

Spear = 14-27
Sword = 15-22
Axe = 6-28
Hammer = 19-35
Scythe = 9-41
Wand/Staff = 11-22

Even a caster weapon would be beating a set of daggers out for damage, and that is all WITHOUT a damage modifier.

What modifier would be better is a matter of debate, but I prefer "I Have the Power" for the extra energy. Being able to use an attack skill is how I get more damage out, and the extra 5 energy allows me to use an attack skill sooner. Depending on the build, a casting speed or recharge bonus on spells can be better though.

Basically, the damage boost is small, so you may want to use a mod that does something more useful.

@Magma: More damage isn't useful?

15^50 should be your set most of the time. The only time you shouldn't be using this is when you have an on-switch set for death penalty, or are running a bar that is energy hungry, in which case sacrificing your vamp or 15^50 mods for zealous and +5E will be the best choice in the scenario.

Extra damage is always good, no matter how minimal or wherever you are, it is always good if it's free and usable at the current moment.

I find zealous to be more useful overall than vamp for daggers. With a zealous mod along with a good rank in Critical Strikes, your energy stays high enough so you don't need the +5e. I can spam DB/MS with no problems unless I get hit with Spirit Shackles or something equally annoying.

its important to note that sins have the highest chance to crit
in which crit dmg is always based off the max dmg of a weap

so while 15% may not make a noticeable difference on normal attacks
it will make a difference on crits


@magma: ur forgettin dual strikes, which can potentially double the attack speed


but tbh...
why not bring 15^50?
its -free- dmg

wuts next? ur not gonna customize ur weap either?

It really depends on the bar. On spike bars I configure I usually make it so I can use both +15^50 and vampiric, but when I can't do that I swap out +15^50 for +5E, if that's not enough I try zealous over it, and if THAT'S not enough, I go with both. I personally love Way of the Lotus though, especially on a Hidden Caltrops spiker.

15^50 +2 dmg

+5 = 1 extra death blossom - + almost 200 dmg

Need me to draw a graph or something? +5 on daggs > 15^50

IMO

I've never really needed the +5E on an MS/DB bar, so I guess that "one extra death blossom" is irrelevent for the most part.

Yeah, more damage is always more good.

15% is an extra 3 dmg (as GW rounds up) and with a Double Stike it becomes 6.

HOWEVER

Thas 20/20 Damage as a base, not counting armor modifiers that reduce that damage, so yeah, in the end it's not much.

But as it has been said, more damage is better, weapon swapping is FTW.

As far as "One Extra Death Blossom" goes, I say learn to manage your energy, what are you going to do after fireing off that "extra Death Blossom" and are now out of energy, stand around looking pretty?

I typically play Ranger and use a 15^50 99% of the time, I ALWAYS have a +5 as one of my weapon sets as a reserve, mostly to be sure I can cast [Apply Posion] or fire off a VERY important DShot. I'm interupting and spreading degen on a 15^50 becuase every single hp of damage counts and adds up.

yea, either you can +5 energy to power another skill when you are low, or you could consistantly have a +2-3 damage. I would proabably tell you to pick +5, but i don't play sin..

I just wonder if costumise effect +damage skills damage?

also is there an inscription that effect damage adding skills too
I hope vs hexed does cause I have r10 asura and I allways have asuran scan (asuran scan+db= 200 damage in 1 second and repeatable every 2 second )

As far as I know, the +damage mods only affect your base damage.

I say just run 15% anyway. There are no sin dagger builds i use that need the extra 5en anyway with critical strikes.
I do have a +5en dagger set just incase but have never used them. Not even when running costly bars like [[beguiling haze].

I agree that it's personal preference.
Unless you need the extra energy for a spike, +5e won't do that much for you - remember it's just +5, it doesn't help your energy regen.
And, many of the people who talk about the damage of daggers are forgetting the chance to double strike (which depends upon you level in Dagger Mastery).

i herd weapon swapping happens sometimes.
when you're attacking 15^50 is better.
when you're low on energy and absolutely must get a max energy boost from an i have the power inscription, +5e is better for a few seconds.

What's all this about chance to double strike? Remember that your main damage comes from skills, and the only way to double strike while using skills is on a dual attack.

Read Dagger Mastery's description.

Higher Dagger Mastery, higher chance to double strike.

+5e allows me to run 40e combos without stopping to auto attack.

Anyway matter of choice I prefer +5e zealous simply because I am to lazy to swap daggers on my sin.

That's not what I meant. I know exactly what double striking is and that you can increase the chance by upping dagger mastery. What I meant was this:

Most of damage comes from using attack skills.
Attack skills that are not Dual Attacks cannot double strike, ie 0% chance.
Dual Attacks always double strike, ie 100% chance.
Thus, if you are using attack skills, which is the most effective way for daggers to do damage, you will have either 0% or 100% chance to hit, depending on which attack skill is in question, not what your dagger mastery is at (although dagger mastery will help with doing damage as well at crits).

If you need an extra +5 energy just to run a combo, your build isn't good because that means you can only run that combo once in an entire fight and then have no energy for any utility skills - unless your E-management is good enough to fill up your bar again quickly, in which case the +5 is pointless anyway (and here's a hint, Assassins have some of the BEST energy management in the game).

Extra damage, is extra damage, is extra damage, and it's always useful no matter how much there is. If you need +5 energy for an emergency, weapon swap.

Yes, but dagger attacks (which are not skills) can double strike and we are talking about weapon damage, not skill damage.