I know this may be heresy for some, but I find there are way too many skills in GW. There are so many combinations especially when you couple that with a secondary profession.
The real problem is there is not a good quantitative way of evaluating the skills effectiveness especially when many of the skills are synergistic and dependent on other skills that are on other team members.
I guess the metric for evaluating the effectiveness has to be team based, but there are so many permutations its a very complex, difficult, and daunting task. Its also situational, base on the expected foes and their skills that you are up against. In general speed to perform the specific goal, such as mission or quest, would be a possible metric. So how do you quantitatively determine the optimum team build?
Are there too many skills?
gerg-nad
Bryant Again
I think it's less that there are too many skills and more that there's too much to handle on ANet's plate.
slowerpoke
yes there are too many skills
FlamingMetroid
yes, this isn't news
Tyla
I love you Bryant, I really do.
Taisayacho
No. Lots of skills with tons of combinations in sets of only 8 is what makes (made) GW great - the fact that one actually has to find out what works, rather than having only a few skills to choose from. Each skill or skillset has something better than it in any given situation. There is no one "optimum" team build - there's always a counter, unless ANet decided to buff WS further (somehow?) or something else stupid like that.
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by gerg-nad
The real problem is there is not a good quantitative way of evaluating the skills effectiveness especially when many of the skills are synergistic and dependent on other skills that are on other team members.
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The tricky bit is figuring out how to evaluate the value of disruption. I argue that this is a step function: either you want to produce NO disruption, enough disruption to prevent caps in HA, or enough disruption to produce kill windows, but no more (since 95% of the disruption skills in this game are overcosted and the remainder go on EVERY bar of the class in question). This follows from the fact that disruption invariably has diminishing marginal returns, so you want to produce JUST enough to get kills given player skill. (As a rule, using disruption to not die only works out against spikes or bad builds and bad teams like spiritway.)
The problem is that Izzy and the rebalance team don't think like this. I guarantee you that the better theorists in this game (not that there are many left around) think in this fashion. Lord only knows what Ensign was keeping from the masses, but I'm willing to bet that he had a comprehensive theory on the matter, given his arguments about adrenaline.
Snow Bunny
The synergy between AoM and Wearying Strike is pretty much my favorite thing in this game.
Painbringer
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Originally Posted by gerg-nad
I know this may be heresy for some, but I find there are way too many skills in GW. There are so many combinations especially when you couple that with a secondary profession.
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Trylo
well, there definitely are way too many. this is what makes GW, GW. on the other hand there are also very useful skills that fill multiple roles which i think is the direction anet is heading in for GW2.
a particular line that has a lot of this is the water magic line. almost every skill benefits from water hexes, as well as giving the utility of snares.
[freezing gust] , [Glowing Ice] , [Frozen Burst] , [Blurred Vision]
the fact that most of the skills use water hexes in the first place makes everything more viable, and great splitability.
now if only more lines were like water
a particular line that has a lot of this is the water magic line. almost every skill benefits from water hexes, as well as giving the utility of snares.
[freezing gust] , [Glowing Ice] , [Frozen Burst] , [Blurred Vision]
the fact that most of the skills use water hexes in the first place makes everything more viable, and great splitability.
now if only more lines were like water
Spazzer
Yes, there are too many skills in the game. There are too many professions, too.
Kenagalaz
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I think it's less that there are too many skills and more that there's too much to handle on ANet's plate.
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pamelf
I don't necessarily think there's too many skills, there's just too many USELESS skills. i'm all for diversity, as long as everything is actually useable.
DarkFlame
Yes, there are too many skills(and too much on Anet's plate). Hence EoTN, instead of Utopia and GW2 in place of any more future campaigns.
Communication. It works wonders.
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Originally Posted by gerg-nad
So how do you quantitatively determine the optimum team build?
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AKB48
I think there are too little skills
Lest121
I think we have to much access the secondary skills, it should have been a limit of 2 attribute not 3, for example anyone can be a Spirit spammer in PvP, it's true the spirit don't have enough HP, but controlling spirits should be in the hands of a Rit only, hopefully GW2 will fix it and leave certain skills out in the secondary profession, there's should be a tie in, Necro controsl the dark arts so a Nec should have more access to the Assassin Shadow Arts than any other class.
pamelf
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Originally Posted by underverse_ninja
I think we have to much access the secondary skills, it should have been a limit of 2 attribute not 3, for example anyone can be a Spirit spammer in PvP, it's true the spirit don't have enough HP, but controlling spirits should be in the hands of a Rit only, hopefully GW2 will fix it and leave certain skills out in the secondary profession, there's should be a tie in, Necro controsl the dark arts so a Nec should have more access to the Assassin Shadow Arts than any other class.
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-Lotus-
its not so much there are to many. I compare GW to MTG alot, similar balance. anyways, there are thousands of cards in magic, and they are mostly balanced. GW designers just need to use a little bit of thought when designing and fixing skills.
The current team obviously lack the skills to do this (look at smiter's boon, what kind of fix is that?) so they either need to hire some people that can balance skills or have less skills.
The current team obviously lack the skills to do this (look at smiter's boon, what kind of fix is that?) so they either need to hire some people that can balance skills or have less skills.
sdgg00
I find no problem with number of skills available to use with accessable primary and secondary attributes. The diversity is one of most attractive thing in Guild Wars or perhaps makes GW better than many other MMO which have too much restriction on attribute and skill setting. Playing different combination over time is what keeps me playing GW 
Xx_Sorin_xX
there's too many combinations. while some people believe this is a good thing, it also causes problems. anet simply doesn't have the time/people to devote to testing EVERY build, and that's where broken builds. they have to change certain skills from time to time, but they won't know how it will work with every other skill.. if we had less skills, we wouldn't have as many of these problems, imo
Fitz Rinley
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Originally Posted by Taisayacho
No. Lots of skills with tons of combinations in sets of only 8 is what makes (made) GW great - the fact that one actually has to find out what works, rather than having only a few skills to choose from. Each skill or skillset has something better than it in any given situation. There is no one "optimum" team build - there's always a counter, unless ANet decided to buff WS further (somehow?) or something else stupid like that.
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Inspite of the fact that skills are expressed in all possible combinations, the same combinations come to the forefront through the efforts of the bean counting min-maxers. Then these are coppied by the rest. The function of being social, and a community, is to share that information which leads to community success. When this is done people are ridiculed for using cookie cutter builds.
Some variation is needed because there are a variety of groups of people. Everyone is unique just like everyone else in their clique. Some people simply will never be good interupting as a Mesmer but do great as a Ranger. The variation of skills plays to that advantage and is inclusive. The problem is knowing which skills should be viewed as fodder for the monsters and which can be used effectively.
GW has from the outset provided so little information about the way their game works as to be equal to the manual parents get when a baby is born. Let me be real clear - they don't say anything helpful in understanding how the game works and what you can do. Hence, if you want an elder pet, you either have to cap one or repeatedly guess at how to make one. Most people opt out for a Dire pet because those instructions and a clear path to success are available (or they end up with a hearty pet by doing next to nothing). It is the same with skills and skill combinations. There is insufficient time and instruction on the game for most people (especially occasional players) to do more than copy from the few builds that work.
GW has forgotten that the point of the game is entertainment, which is most readily achieved when a player feels successful. The mash they have slammed together, nerfed up, and pureed over the last few years has resulted in a game to broad for the general player to walk in and grasp. So, most quit and only use the few things that works for those around them. Instead of fostering ingenuity, the excesses have quashed it.
Hyper.nl
I have to agree with the statement. While I've grown to be used to it, I think that the amount of skills is rediculous. I also find GuildWars to be too much skill-based. (Read: in-game skill, not playing skill)
I don't request any changes for GW1 tho, this would require way too much work. But I'm glad that Guild Wars 2 seems to be having a more balanced approach in which equipment and experience share an important role together with skills to determine character effectiveness.
I don't request any changes for GW1 tho, this would require way too much work. But I'm glad that Guild Wars 2 seems to be having a more balanced approach in which equipment and experience share an important role together with skills to determine character effectiveness.
tmakinen
There are at the same time way too many skills and not enough skills. The 'too many' part comes from having a zillion uninspired skills doing essentially the same thing and it's just a matter of choosing the most efficient one. The 'not enough' part comes from insufficient depth and synergy between skills, preventing the creation of really ingeniously original new builds (there is an abundance of original builds all right, it's the 'ingenious' part that's missing) since the available depth is pretty soon exhausted.
What we have heard about the skill system of GW2 makes me believe that ANet is going into the right direction with stuff like emergent phenomena.
What we have heard about the skill system of GW2 makes me believe that ANet is going into the right direction with stuff like emergent phenomena.
Avarre
Way too many.
forc
I would like to see more skills.
pumpkin pie
you make the build and test them? lol i find that extremely fun and hope there are more skills
Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by gerg-nad
So how do you quantitatively determine the optimum team build?
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We have seen this happen over and over and over again, as optimum builds are found despite there being so many skills, and do lead to local optima where everyone runs the optimal build or an optimal counter to the optimal build.
Basically, you're arguing to make guild wars even more into build wars. The logical end point of your suggestion is rock-paper-scissors.
Kenagalaz
There are too many skills.
To make optimal build, you had to take multiple skill lines from different professions. You picked a strength that only one class had, the covered that class's weakness by adding an appropriate secondary. which was fun
There's so many skills now and each skill line has lost it's unique identity (this is what i mean by diversity) that you can do essentially everything you used to be able to do with just 1 proffession, without the seconday prof. and do it even better, partly cuz the skills are over powered, and partly because you don't have to split your attributes.
To make optimal build, you had to take multiple skill lines from different professions. You picked a strength that only one class had, the covered that class's weakness by adding an appropriate secondary. which was fun
There's so many skills now and each skill line has lost it's unique identity (this is what i mean by diversity) that you can do essentially everything you used to be able to do with just 1 proffession, without the seconday prof. and do it even better, partly cuz the skills are over powered, and partly because you don't have to split your attributes.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
The whole point of having so many skills and constantly changing skills is to make it difficult to calculate optimum team builds. If it was easier to calculate optimum builds, what little build diversity there is goes right out the window.
We have seen this happen over and over and over again, as optimum builds are found despite there being so many skills, and do lead to local optima where everyone runs the optimal build or an optimal counter to the optimal build. Basically, you're arguing to make guild wars even more into build wars. The logical end point of your suggestion is rock-paper-scissors. |
This was not the case.
Orange Milk
Too many skills, too many proffessions, NightFall was a bad addition. ANet came WAY over the top with OP skills and has been attempting to find balance ever since.
Look at RaO and SandStorm pre nerf to see my point.
They ment well with NF, but no, they failed, added WAY too much shit.
At least with EotN it was only a handfull of unneeded PvP able skills, but the PvE Only Skills that were added aare sooo beyond OP it's silly.
Maps and dungeons an, I guess Hero Battles were a good addition, but the skills and new Proffessions were bad.
Look at RaO and SandStorm pre nerf to see my point.
They ment well with NF, but no, they failed, added WAY too much shit.
At least with EotN it was only a handfull of unneeded PvP able skills, but the PvE Only Skills that were added aare sooo beyond OP it's silly.
Maps and dungeons an, I guess Hero Battles were a good addition, but the skills and new Proffessions were bad.
sixofone
It is pretty overwhelming, especially when you're new, the amount of skills that are available to you. And only a handful ever see regular use - in PvE, I can't speak to the PvP aspect of the game.
Compound that by adding all 4 campaigns, with some redundancies, and you start to go: "Crap! WTF do I use this skill for? Agh - I'll just go back to my tried and true whatever."
Diversity is good, and flexibility. I like having options. But, in PvE, it basically comes down to: does this help kill things faster, or heal/protect me more? All the "tactical" e-denial skills in the Mesmer line, for instance. Not much use in PvE.
I don't know. The same thing was true in Magic the Gathering. There were a lot of cards that, while they had cool artwork, just didn't see much play. Certain skills just worked better than others, and had better synergy.
Compound that by adding all 4 campaigns, with some redundancies, and you start to go: "Crap! WTF do I use this skill for? Agh - I'll just go back to my tried and true whatever."
Diversity is good, and flexibility. I like having options. But, in PvE, it basically comes down to: does this help kill things faster, or heal/protect me more? All the "tactical" e-denial skills in the Mesmer line, for instance. Not much use in PvE.
I don't know. The same thing was true in Magic the Gathering. There were a lot of cards that, while they had cool artwork, just didn't see much play. Certain skills just worked better than others, and had better synergy.
Kenagalaz
diversity in the game is good. diversity in a single class is OP
Doctor of Rocks
Too many pointless skills is the issue I think. They nerf overpowered skills and do nothing to underpowered skills. To me it seems that the number of efficient skills that do synergize well is becoming smaller, and the number of skills that are nerfed to deter usage is increasing with absolutely no change to the skills that aren't used to begin with.
Shadowspawn X
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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
GW has forgotten that the point of the game is entertainment, which is most readily achieved when a player feels successful. The mash they have slammed together, nerfed up, and pureed over the last few years has resulted in a game to broad for the general player to walk in and grasp. So, most quit and only use the few things that works for those around them. Instead of fostering ingenuity, the excesses have quashed it.
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Fitz Rinley
I have Skill Hunter on my primary character (about 40 more to Legendary). All of my characters collect every skill in their class and those needed for builds. I understand collecting skills out of a need for use and profesional action of that character. I see no reason to collect ALL game skills on one character, especially since it seems about 40% of the skills have no use except for monster fodder.
Striken7
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Originally Posted by Doctor of Rocks
They nerf overpowered skills and do nothing to underpowered skills. To me it seems that the number of efficient skills that do synergize well is becoming smaller, and the number of skills that are nerfed to deter usage is increasing with absolutely no change to the skills that aren't used to begin with.
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The problem is not that there are too many skills, it is the method with which we were exposed to the skills that failed for the most part. Releasing huge numbers of relatively untested skills in a single shot (with new chapters) is a recipe to create piles of unbalanced crap that can take years to fix.
We'd have much better balance and many more viable builds if the number of skills we have, had instead been released in smaller skill packs (once a month or so) so that their interactions with existing skills could be thoroughly tested. This probably also would have helped generate a lot of continuing interest in the game.
birdfoot
I'd say 50% wrong. Anet used to nerf overpowered skills and do nothing about underpowered ones. They only started to actually buff alot of underpowered skills pretty late in GW's life.
But one thing for sure is that the way Anet used to nerf skills for PvP resulted in also in more useless skills in PvE (where the skills would be fine). The current method of creating PvP version of certain skills is a good way to go but I felt had been adopted too late.
But one thing for sure is that the way Anet used to nerf skills for PvP resulted in also in more useless skills in PvE (where the skills would be fine). The current method of creating PvP version of certain skills is a good way to go but I felt had been adopted too late.
kratimas
No, there are not to many skills, just to many bad ones.
Kenagalaz
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Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X
I realize and respect that many don't feel that way and so they make tomes and faction for those people, but to take away the skills makes the game less not more.
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Then remember how the game Fury was suppose to be the answer to all things wrong with GW. let you equip like 50 skills, and you grind and grind to get more skills only to find out that as you get further in the game every class has virtually the same skill with different names and trivial alterations.
I don't know if GW felt threatened by Fury, which I never understood why, but that's essentially what GW has started turning into. Aside from the of the new mechanic spells, if you tried to recreate some of the popular skillbars now with only prophecies + core it would require you to tap into 3-4 professions, 5-6 skill lines, and 12-20 skill slots. GW still only has 8 skill slots, but there are single skills now that do what 2-3 different skills used to do, except better. or 2 skill combos that do what 3-4 different skills used to do. virtually letting players fit 12 skills into 8 slots.
sometimes, less is more
additionally, new mechanic skills, shadowstep, weapon spells, shouts, chants have too few counters to them, especially counters that punish people who use them, like shatter enchant.
Arkantos
Over 1,000 skills over 10 professions. Don't forget that ANet aren't the best at balancing them.
Yes, there are too many.
Yes, there are too many.