Infraction System Feedback.
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Today I got an "infraction warning", which I guess is somewhat akin to a demerit point? I got a warning for not contributing to the discussion. Apparently on these forums you're not allowed to make asides or even open your mouth if you're not directly contributing to the discussion.
When I started posting here it was because I enjoyed the relaxed freedoms this forum had that GWO didn't. At GWO you had to watch everything you said, because even the slightest most innocuous jib at someone else was considered the most serious bannable offense, and all everyone ever did was bitch and moan to the moderators, who gladly got down on their knees and cyberfellated all the kids who had their feelings hurt.
When I started posting here regularly it seemed like people here were more mature and could handle jokes and a little language, but lately it seems that people are wound a little too tight and reading into things and basically being whiny hugbox emo kids. I don't know what happened, if the moderation staff is new or if all of a sudden they simultaneously got all their panties in a twist, but it's becoming a little too authoritarian around here, and we're being censored and disciplined a little too much. This feels like we're back in elementary school, and if we get too many checks by our name we have to go see the principal.
When discussion occurs irl, not everything said is a direct contribution to the topic. People make jokes. People make asides. This is not an academic forum and we are not peer reviewing comments as if they were journal publications. This is a forum about a VIDEO GAME. Coming here to talk about fun shouldn't feel like school where we're punished for every little misdeed. Moderators, lighten up.
Avarre: I alerted Inde to your previous post and the issue of overzealousness in using the new system will be looked into.
When I started posting here it was because I enjoyed the relaxed freedoms this forum had that GWO didn't. At GWO you had to watch everything you said, because even the slightest most innocuous jib at someone else was considered the most serious bannable offense, and all everyone ever did was bitch and moan to the moderators, who gladly got down on their knees and cyberfellated all the kids who had their feelings hurt.
When I started posting here regularly it seemed like people here were more mature and could handle jokes and a little language, but lately it seems that people are wound a little too tight and reading into things and basically being whiny hugbox emo kids. I don't know what happened, if the moderation staff is new or if all of a sudden they simultaneously got all their panties in a twist, but it's becoming a little too authoritarian around here, and we're being censored and disciplined a little too much. This feels like we're back in elementary school, and if we get too many checks by our name we have to go see the principal.
When discussion occurs irl, not everything said is a direct contribution to the topic. People make jokes. People make asides. This is not an academic forum and we are not peer reviewing comments as if they were journal publications. This is a forum about a VIDEO GAME. Coming here to talk about fun shouldn't feel like school where we're punished for every little misdeed. Moderators, lighten up.
Avarre: I alerted Inde to your previous post and the issue of overzealousness in using the new system will be looked into.
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MStarfire, our new infraction and warning system is to inform the users and make our actions actually more transparent for people. For years, we have had complaints of people who were upset that a post of theirs was deleted without a PM or explanation, that users had no warning of a ban and just logged in one day to see a ban there. There was no physical way for us to do this as we have thousands of posts a day on this forum and hundreds of moderating actions are done daily.
We now have a system that can inform a user of what they are doing wrong, what rule they are violating... so that they can have warning and correct the action BEFORE a ban. The exception on this would still be Ventari's for other reasons that I can detail out if need be.
As for the "does not contribute" warning, I can tell you that over 80% of my deletions are for this reason. While you see it as harmless conversation it can derail a thread, start flamewars, start "lolcat" or "fail" pictures, all which bring down a thread. I can almost guarantee that most users usually just got their post deleted without any warning or explanation and were none the wiser. We now want to let the user know of their actions all to avoid the eventual ban that would have come beforehand because you were not aware of what you were doing wrong. This system won't be used in every case, there are still some posts we can delete without sending the user an infraction or warning... examples of this would be in a case of having to delete out say 40 posts from a thread (update threads would be a classic example of this). Because the time to do this action would require hours of work. Or if the post is truly out of line a ban will still be issued without warning.
It is hard enough to keep a discussion thread going it seems these days without it derailing, turning into a flamewar or personal insults flying. While we appreciate that you might think your comments are indeed harmless, if your post does nothing to further the topic or discussion of the thread then they are deleted.
Tonight though I will try to go in and make sure that the PM is more detailed and let's users know some of this information. This is a work-in-progress as it's a new system so we do appreciate the feedback and any questions or concerns you have with it. It's clear that a more detailed explanation is needed in the PM's that are sent out though.
As just a warning though to others who may post in this thread, I will not be discussing individual infractions or warnings you receive. If you have a question on your particular infraction or warning please feel free to PM me and I can give you more information.
We now have a system that can inform a user of what they are doing wrong, what rule they are violating... so that they can have warning and correct the action BEFORE a ban. The exception on this would still be Ventari's for other reasons that I can detail out if need be.
As for the "does not contribute" warning, I can tell you that over 80% of my deletions are for this reason. While you see it as harmless conversation it can derail a thread, start flamewars, start "lolcat" or "fail" pictures, all which bring down a thread. I can almost guarantee that most users usually just got their post deleted without any warning or explanation and were none the wiser. We now want to let the user know of their actions all to avoid the eventual ban that would have come beforehand because you were not aware of what you were doing wrong. This system won't be used in every case, there are still some posts we can delete without sending the user an infraction or warning... examples of this would be in a case of having to delete out say 40 posts from a thread (update threads would be a classic example of this). Because the time to do this action would require hours of work. Or if the post is truly out of line a ban will still be issued without warning.
It is hard enough to keep a discussion thread going it seems these days without it derailing, turning into a flamewar or personal insults flying. While we appreciate that you might think your comments are indeed harmless, if your post does nothing to further the topic or discussion of the thread then they are deleted.
Tonight though I will try to go in and make sure that the PM is more detailed and let's users know some of this information. This is a work-in-progress as it's a new system so we do appreciate the feedback and any questions or concerns you have with it. It's clear that a more detailed explanation is needed in the PM's that are sent out though.
As just a warning though to others who may post in this thread, I will not be discussing individual infractions or warnings you receive. If you have a question on your particular infraction or warning please feel free to PM me and I can give you more information.
To be perfectly honest it sounds like being back at school again.
hit a classmate - posting something that doesnt contribute
get a warning from the lunchlady - the new pm system
do it again and get sent to the headmaster - ban
While I do somewhat agree with the reasoning for the new system,I can't understand previously,when users have been banned that they were not somehow contacted and informed why. There should easily be enough user info available to use as a means of contact (info used during account creation).It can't be any more time consuming than a moderator sending this new pm
Is this system going to mean that for example: an update is released buffing skills which are in turn discussed in the professions relative section,users cannot discuss the skill in the usual guru way.
1
mg i love it
2:no its shit
3:meh could be better
4:buff lol
In reality,while short and blunt(and normally followed with "12charsssss"),those potential posts in that circumstance are all perfectly viable contributions and imo,every moderator would need to be on exactly the same wavelength (or occaisionally planet) to keep such deletions and warnings uniform otherwise the system fails (i can understand stuff like early bumping in ventaris,thats a given)
Where is the line now drawn between spam/trolling/e-raging + a "contribution" given that the new system is designed to notify of an infraction/post delete and potential ban?
Has there been a step-up discussion on what moderators should and should not moderate as to keep deletions and warnings somewhat fair and uniform with the rest of the forum? (An overzealous sardelac mod could delete something that a riverside mod wouldn't)
hit a classmate - posting something that doesnt contribute
get a warning from the lunchlady - the new pm system
do it again and get sent to the headmaster - ban
While I do somewhat agree with the reasoning for the new system,I can't understand previously,when users have been banned that they were not somehow contacted and informed why. There should easily be enough user info available to use as a means of contact (info used during account creation).It can't be any more time consuming than a moderator sending this new pm
Is this system going to mean that for example: an update is released buffing skills which are in turn discussed in the professions relative section,users cannot discuss the skill in the usual guru way.
1
mg i love it2:no its shit
3:meh could be better
4:buff lol
In reality,while short and blunt(and normally followed with "12charsssss"),those potential posts in that circumstance are all perfectly viable contributions and imo,every moderator would need to be on exactly the same wavelength (or occaisionally planet) to keep such deletions and warnings uniform otherwise the system fails (i can understand stuff like early bumping in ventaris,thats a given)
Where is the line now drawn between spam/trolling/e-raging + a "contribution" given that the new system is designed to notify of an infraction/post delete and potential ban?
Has there been a step-up discussion on what moderators should and should not moderate as to keep deletions and warnings somewhat fair and uniform with the rest of the forum? (An overzealous sardelac mod could delete something that a riverside mod wouldn't)
I
Nothing has changed in terms of moderating. We did all this before, behind the scenes by user noting your accounts and deleting the post. The only thing that has changed is that we are now telling you about it through PM. As I said above, this is to make the system more transparent for you, so that you can know what's going on. The infractions and warning are entered by a moderator but the PM's are automated with that information.
I suggest adding a link to this thread in every one of those automated Infraction PM's. I had to google the word 'Infraction', because I hadn't had a clue about its meaning.
I applaud this new system though, because of the said improvements in the communication between the offender and the moderator. Just make sure every user knows about the details, like the 'after 5 times you'll get a 1-day-ban' I read about earlier.
I applaud this new system though, because of the said improvements in the communication between the offender and the moderator. Just make sure every user knows about the details, like the 'after 5 times you'll get a 1-day-ban' I read about earlier.
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The moderator still has to give the infraction, type out the explanation, etc. The PM being sent is automated. And yes, if you acquire a certain # of infractions the ban would be given out with the PM, it's a generous system though in terms of # of infractions before a ban is issued. Probably much more generous then some of the moderators would like. Not to mention that I can view the infractions and warnings that a moderator gives.
Forgive my ignorance, but where is this new infraction system announced and outlined? It's been quite a while since I read the Guru general forum rules; has that been revised and updated with this information? I only see the FAQ link at the top of the forum, but there a number of topics in that list.
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HawkofStorms, there's really no way for me to describe every single feature this system allows. You are speculating right now but I assure you this is not much different then the system before. You are just going to be more aware if you have a post deleted is the major change in it all.
The moderator can still choose the # of points to an infraction if they feel it's a mild offense. They can choose to give a warning instead of an infraction as a "heads up" that you are doing something wrong. They can choose to give more points if it's a particularly inflammatory post. It is subjective based still, that hasn't changed.
I don't know why you would think that you might be getting a whole slew of PM's from us about this. If you were that controversial of a poster before, then you're probably not going to be getting anymore PM's or bans then you were beforehand. If you weren't, then you're probably not going to hear from us. Also, there is a way to download your PM box by the way. If you scroll down to the bottom of your PM screen there is displayed: Download all Private Messages as: XML | CSV | Text
As I said above, the moderators still have a choice of what type of infraction, how many points, whether to just give a warning and so forth. Again, I'll state, the biggest change to this system is that we can now let the users know their warnings and infractions before they get banned. Just as before, we look at a user's post history, past notes, past bans and more before making these decisions. Nothing has changed in that regard.
MisterB, first off thank you for letting me know that the Forum Rules link is missing in the navigation bar on this skin. It seems we missed that with the new skin change. On to your question though, this system has been in place for only 3 days. We are working on getting feedback, ironing out any kinks or bugs, getting the moderators up to date, and doing edits that need to be done. I'm not sure what outline or announcement needs to be made since we are sending out PM's informing users of violations. Something we did beforehand anyway but now it's wider scale to keep the users better informed. We also have this thread to gather feedback from those who have experienced the system and to answer questions or concerns that arise. As I stated above, this system is still very subjective, just as it was before, so the same forum rules and guidelines apply. The same banning for things such as flaming, spam, sell forum violations and more hasn't changed. As I also stated above, I will be working on the PM's to have them more descriptive and answer more questions so that users know why and for what they are receiving these. The rules and guidelines of the forum have not changed.
The moderator can still choose the # of points to an infraction if they feel it's a mild offense. They can choose to give a warning instead of an infraction as a "heads up" that you are doing something wrong. They can choose to give more points if it's a particularly inflammatory post. It is subjective based still, that hasn't changed.
I don't know why you would think that you might be getting a whole slew of PM's from us about this. If you were that controversial of a poster before, then you're probably not going to be getting anymore PM's or bans then you were beforehand. If you weren't, then you're probably not going to hear from us. Also, there is a way to download your PM box by the way. If you scroll down to the bottom of your PM screen there is displayed: Download all Private Messages as: XML | CSV | Text
As I said above, the moderators still have a choice of what type of infraction, how many points, whether to just give a warning and so forth. Again, I'll state, the biggest change to this system is that we can now let the users know their warnings and infractions before they get banned. Just as before, we look at a user's post history, past notes, past bans and more before making these decisions. Nothing has changed in that regard.
MisterB, first off thank you for letting me know that the Forum Rules link is missing in the navigation bar on this skin. It seems we missed that with the new skin change. On to your question though, this system has been in place for only 3 days. We are working on getting feedback, ironing out any kinks or bugs, getting the moderators up to date, and doing edits that need to be done. I'm not sure what outline or announcement needs to be made since we are sending out PM's informing users of violations. Something we did beforehand anyway but now it's wider scale to keep the users better informed. We also have this thread to gather feedback from those who have experienced the system and to answer questions or concerns that arise. As I stated above, this system is still very subjective, just as it was before, so the same forum rules and guidelines apply. The same banning for things such as flaming, spam, sell forum violations and more hasn't changed. As I also stated above, I will be working on the PM's to have them more descriptive and answer more questions so that users know why and for what they are receiving these. The rules and guidelines of the forum have not changed.
What bothers me is that a conversation of any kind is subject to someone else's approval. Defeats the whole idea of communication, if you ask me. Very Big Brother.
Would it be possible for users to directly rate other contributions? It could work that every post has a positive and negative review button, and if enough people think something is negatively impacting a conversation (serial trolls, flamers, etc) then the mods can take action. I say put the infraction system in the hands of the users, not the moderators. Then it becomes more fair to everyone, and not so close to authoritarian censorship.
Would it be possible for users to directly rate other contributions? It could work that every post has a positive and negative review button, and if enough people think something is negatively impacting a conversation (serial trolls, flamers, etc) then the mods can take action. I say put the infraction system in the hands of the users, not the moderators. Then it becomes more fair to everyone, and not so close to authoritarian censorship.
The problem isn't about informing us when we're breaking rules. That's fine. The problem is there is a handful of people who decide if posts are "relevant". It's just not right. That power should lie more with the users.
If a post is irrelevant to a conversation can't the mods trust the rest of us to be smart enough to avoid it? If it's not inflammatory it shouldn't receive an infraction.
Maybe it's just that before this system things SEEMED like they were more easygoing than GWO. This system just exposes the authoritarianism that is definitely present when moderators can hand out seemingly arbitrary infractions, which, according to what I've read, will add up and lead to a ban.
If a post is irrelevant to a conversation can't the mods trust the rest of us to be smart enough to avoid it? If it's not inflammatory it shouldn't receive an infraction.
Maybe it's just that before this system things SEEMED like they were more easygoing than GWO. This system just exposes the authoritarianism that is definitely present when moderators can hand out seemingly arbitrary infractions, which, according to what I've read, will add up and lead to a ban.
A
Essentially all thats going on is: now we will know when we have had a post deleted and will know why we received a ban. We as users will be better able to avoid bans because we will be notified that a post we made was in violation of the rules, that have been around all along, and so will be better able to avoid making that same mistake.
Hmm sounds like the new system empowers me as a user not them as mods.
As to the big brother references....big brother is when the govenrment comes into your house and monitors your actions (generally wihout you knowing it) so as to use any discretions against you.
Acually telling people up front that, when they come into your home/establishment/whatever, they will be expected to follow the house rules and that there are people empowered to enforce those rules is not even close to the same thing. The fact that it is being handled in a very transparent manner where the user has all of the information he needs about the rules and how they are being implemented to make the system work for him further sets this apart form any big brother situation.
People can say all they want about freedom of speech (American bias, sorry) but even in the U.S. you do not now nor ever have had an uninfringeable right to freedom of speech on someone else's property.
Hmm sounds like the new system empowers me as a user not them as mods.
As to the big brother references....big brother is when the govenrment comes into your house and monitors your actions (generally wihout you knowing it) so as to use any discretions against you.
Acually telling people up front that, when they come into your home/establishment/whatever, they will be expected to follow the house rules and that there are people empowered to enforce those rules is not even close to the same thing. The fact that it is being handled in a very transparent manner where the user has all of the information he needs about the rules and how they are being implemented to make the system work for him further sets this apart form any big brother situation.
People can say all they want about freedom of speech (American bias, sorry) but even in the U.S. you do not now nor ever have had an uninfringeable right to freedom of speech on someone else's property.