Spirits and Undead. Combined and Revised.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Spirits


First, there are three stages of "Life," which is how the first part of this topic is split up. Each stage deals with a different type of body or location. The stages, as I have named them, are “Mortal Life,” “Ghostly Life,” and “Afterworld Life.”

Stage 1: Mortal Life

This stage is the life of corporeal beings, with physical bodies. Basically, it is the original life of creatures.

How I view this stage of life is that there is a physical body that traps (for lack of a better word) the soul and keeps it in the physical world. While it traps the soul, it also protects the soul, preventing any damage to it. The reason why I say "trap" is because the soul cannot freely leave the physical body, not like many would want it to.

As evidence by Shiro, it is possible to return to this stage, through use of powerful magic, or more possibly through the help of a god. Because Shiro was able to return to his mortal body, something I now wonder is "Will we meet others who will return from the 'Ghostly Life' to the 'Mortal Life?'"

That is, other then the Undead, which are souls who were forced into inanimate bodies, unlike Shiro, who took on flesh and bone from his spirit form. But Undeath is for a later discussion.

Stage 2: Ghostly Life

In this stage, souls wonder the world, waiting to be taken to their afterlife destination (usually the Underworld, sometimes other realm of the gods). It is this stage that all of the spirits in the world are in (i.e. the spirits in the Crystal Desert, Desolation, Ascalon, etc.).

This stage can also be considered the stage for "Spirits who cannot find rest," as this is the same idea. Spirits here are simply waiting to move on, or unable to move on due to some regret or mistake regarding their "Mortal Life." For instance, the spirits in the Crystal Desert and the Desolation are unable to move on due to one of two things: First, wanting to finish the journey/be reunited with their loved ones. Second, wishing to see Turai Ossa go through Ascention (which is implied to happen when the heroes Ascend, by Turai’s dialogue in Amnoon Oasis).

When under the order of the gods, it seems that spirits are allowed to travel between this stage and the next stage freely. This is most evident by the Avatar of the gods (most of which look like spirits, Lyssa being the exception) – who grant special people access to their god’s realm and in some cases guide a spirit themselves – and the Envoys (as they are the spirits of past criminals) – who have to shepherd the dead.



Stage 3: Afterworld Life

First, I will start off by saying that there seems to be two ways into this stage. The first being obvious, an Envoy takes the spirit to the Underworld – or a spirit is taken by an Avatar to the respective Realm. The second is that when a ghost is killed, it is sent to the Rift.

The evidence I have for this is the quest Refuse the King, mainly the reward dialogue:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrish the Slave
"Perhaps there is some good left in this world, for you turned down Jahnus at great risk to your life. That vile beast deserves whatever awaits him in the depths of the Underworld. I only wish it could have been I who cast down his spirit. The dead are grateful, my friend, and hope you will accept this token."
Seeing how those who take this quest has to kill the spirit of King Jahnus, and his spirit is sent to the Underworld, then that means that killing a spirit that is in the "Ghostly Stage" just sends it to the next life.

The biggest mystery in all of this is what happens to the spirit if it is killed in the Rift. Vizier Khilbron and Shiro Tagachi are perfect examples for this. After the heroes killed them in the Gate of Madness, as they were spirits, what happens to them?

Well, as it seems, what happens to the spirit depends on how the spirit “died.”

Outcome 1:
When a spirit is killed in the Rift, it disappears forever. This currently has little to no support, and is just a common belief of what happens to a spirit. The most common background for this belief would be an “exorcism.” If this outcome ever happens, it would be a rare outcome and would only happen in unusual times (as this happening a lot would throw the universe out of balance – see below for why).

Outcome 2:
The final possibility, would be when the spirit dies in the Rift, the "spirit energy," as one can call it, is sent back to the Mist. This would be the case for most of the deaths of spirits, as the Mist cannot create something out of nothing (despite it being “just a game” as many who are not interested in lore would say, even the universe of Guild Wars must rely on physics most of the time), and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Because energy cannot be created or destroyed, a soul cannot be created out of nothing, and therefore the Mists must gain something or else all new life will eventually stop. The best source of this “something” would be the energy from spirits when they get killed.

Outcome 3:
The final outcome is to be eaten by a demon, or something demonic, such as a Margonite. Along with what happens to a spirit when they die normally, we do not know what actually happens to a spirit when they are eaten.

According to the quests Vanishing Spirits, A Tasty Morsel, and The Growing Threat, it is known that Margonites and Torment Demons eat spirits as food.

What I see as the most likely thing to happen would be the same as the above Outcome 1, the complete destruction of the soul. However, the difference between here and Outcome 1 is that, while Outcome 1 has no export for the energy of the soul, being eaten does have an export of energy.

This Outcome would support why Dhuum’s and Menzies’ forces attacked the Hall of Heroes, to gain a food supply for the upcoming attempt to release Abaddon (which would also be why the Fury attacked Shing Jea during the Dragon Festival, to gather the Celestial Essences as a food supply).

River of Souls

A lovely topic with the Rift and spirits is the River of Souls. There are many thoughts about this going all over, most dominant seems to be that many people believe that it is the River of Souls that decides where people go. This is far from correct, and we have but to thank the incorrect person who put this idea on the wiki for this. The River of Souls’ purpose is unknown.

However, I have a theory of its purpose. One belief is that it goes through all the Realms of the Gods, I would agree to this. But I will expand on this idea. I believe that the River of Souls goes in a circular path, never ending, never beginning. Some spirits are stuck in this River, as punishment, similar to that of the Envoys, but this is a lesser punishment.

From death, the spirit is taken to Grenth to be judged by the Envoys, except in rare cases. After being judged by Grenth, they are put in the River of Souls and the River takes the spirit to its correct resting place, as such, it passes through all the Realms, and nearby the Hall of Heroes, until it comes back to the Underworld.

The River of Souls never “dries up” because there are the spirits who are meant to be the “inter-Realm guides” for other spirits. These punished spirits could very well be the ones that help break the dam in the Gate of Pain mission.

Envoys



The Envoys were, in the past, great villains. After death, they were punished with the task of guiding the newly dead spirits to the Rift. Usually, the Envoys would take the spirits to the Underworld, but on rare occasions – such as Shiro Tagachi’s second death – would take spirits to the Realm of Torment.

While punished into a forced “community service” by Grenth, they are also given very strong powers. Such as controlling spirits, and the ability to resurrect people easily.

Norn Spirits

These spirits are an interesting thing to look at, as we know very little about them. What we know of them can be summarized with Egil Fireteller’s dialogue in Jaga Moraine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil Fireteller
The Norn do not know gods, at least not in the way humans do. But we do revere the spirits of the animals upon whom we depend for food and shelter. There are many such spirits. Bear is the mightiest of course, but Raven, Owl, Wolf, Wurm, and Ox all have their place in the world and in our hearts. While we hunt and slay these creatures, we also praise their spirit, and thank them for their sacrifice. The animals are our brethren; their spirits guide us as we live and hunt.

There are more hostile, even malicious, spirits in the world... spirits of the mountains, seasons, fire, and darkness. The animal spirits are our allies against these foes, and we thank them for their aid, singing the praises of all beasts as we hunt. This is the Norn way.
There are at least six “good” spirits among the Norn folklore, these all take the aspect of an animal (Bear, Wolf, Raven, Owl, Wurm, and Ox). Along with these, there are at least four “evil” spirits, which take on aspect of nature (Mountains, Seasons, Fire, and Darkness).

The Animal Spirits are probably the spirits of a very magically adept animal, but why it interacts with the Norn is unknown. As for the Nature Spirits, it seems that the Norn just link an aspect of nature to have a hostile spirit because these parts of nature prove as challenges to the Norn, that they might not be interested in (they are more interested in fighting then trying to survive blizzards and the like).

Each of the Nature Spirits that we know of can be related to something in the Far Shiverpeaks that prove troublesome for the Norn, without giving a fight. Such as:

Mountain: Travelling the Shiverpeaks (obviously), making it hard to track prey, and making it annoying to get around.

Seasons: Winter brings more cold, summer could bring slushy snow (therefore making it annoying to move around), etc.

Fire: Kind of point blank. Fire melts snow and can kill things without a “real fight.”

Darkness: Probably connected to the bottomless pit in Jaga Moraine.

I have a theory on the Norn’s Origins, and their relations to the Animal Spirits, but that is for another thread.

Summoned Spirits

Nature Spirits

This is a short and simple thing. Although they have the name "spirit" in them, they are not the same type of spirit as a soul. As their own name says, they are Nature Spirits, which are, technically, aspects of Nature, from winter to Favored Winds, they all bring about a different natural affect.

Interesting thing to note, is that none of these Nature Spirits share a name with a known Norn Nature Spirit, while some ideas can be seen to be similar between what we know of the Norn Nature Spirits and these Nature Spirits.

Binding Ritual Spirits

The quest Haunted actually helps explain where the spirits that Ritualists summon come from. Although not directly explained, it has spirits summoned with the names Anguish, Sorrow, and Regret, and those spirits are suffering from such things. It seems to me, that the spirits that are summoned are regular spirits, that are filled with a certain type of emotion (e.g. Pain, Anguish, etc). It also seems that the more the emotion is stuck in them, the stronger it is.

Now of course not all of the spirits have the emotion of the name, as Empowerment and the like are not emotions. But they have the intent to do what the spirit does, such as the intent to help, so they help in different ways.

In other words, the spirits that Ritualists summon are regular spirits that just take the form of those aspects, as they are bound to where they are summoned (other spirits are not bound, so they have the shape of their physical form).


Mad King Thorn


Because we do not know if the Mad King Thorn is an Undead or a Spirit, I am giving him his own main section, in between covering Spirits and Undeath. Also, because there is a thread on Guru dedicated solely on our beloved mad king, I shall just link it, and summarize it.

Thorns Origins

Mad King was once a human king of Kryta. Due to the lack of family trees we cannot place him into a time period. When he was King its suggested by one of his quotes that he was a simple man rather than a 7ft spirit with a Pumpkin for a head. During his reign King Thorn had trouble with the Tengu who often caused chaos within Kryta. This grudge appears to last through to him becoming the Mad King.

He also implies that he was a military genius with an undefeated army and fleet that crushed any revolt that rose against him. Its hard to tell if he’s serious here due to him immediately placing Rock-Paper –Scissors on the same level as commanding an army. I would guess that he is indeed telling the truth and the Rock-Paper-Scissors comment comes from his own madness.

Thorn also had connections with Kamadan, after going there to woo an Elonian Princess who dwelled there. Its also implied that his rule extended or at least affected other races as one of the horsemen implies that other races should also be celebrating his return (the horseman in question orders the Grawls to be put to death for not joining in).

Unknown Things About Thorn
(Followed by my opinions)

- The Mad Kings appearance : when did he get this appearance and why?

- The Mad Kings sanity: When did he turn into this being of madness? Was it after his death or before? and is he evil or good?

- His status in death: Why is Thorn able to directly manipulate elements of the mortal realm? does he have some kind of envoy status within the Mists? or is he a special case altogether?

Sanity and Appearance: I think that it occured after death because of his joke:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad King Thorn
"When I first returned from the Land of the Dead, one of the fine citizens of Lion's Arch let out a cry: "Why King Thorn, you have a pumpkin on your head!"
"And I said, "Eh? So he repeated, "Milord, you have a pumpkin on your head!""
"And I said, "What? So he yelled, "Milord, you have a pumpkin on your head!""
"To which, I replied, "A thousand pardons, fine citizen, I cannot hear you. I HAVE A PUMPKIN ON MY HEAD!" HA HA HA HA HA!"
Bolded proves that before he returned from the Underworld (meaning before death) he didn't have a pumpkin for a head. Underlined suggests that he had courtesy, even after death. However, as these are a joke, it cannot be taken seriously, yet.

Status in Death: I think that Mad King Thorn is a Lich himself, like Khilbron and Palawa Joko – or more accurately Zoldark *will get to that later*. It is known that a Lich can control the weaker undead and that they are very strong. This can support his unusual high amount of power by being able to instantly kill people and change areas to his desire. He would just be much more powerful the Khilbron, and is able to move between the Underworld and Tyria (whether due to something he did in life, or due to the power he gained by becoming a lich).

Back to Insanity: I theorize, that the reason why Thorn is maddened, possibly the reason for his distorted figure, is that he fell into the Bone Pits and was transformed/maddened by the Realm of Torment.


Undeath
Undead



As we all know, undead are dead bodies that have been animated. And of course, only a Necromancer can make an undead. True undead, not minions like what those of the *barely mentioned* "Order" of the Necromancers create, are created by attaching a soul to a dead body, creating an *usually* obedient servant.

This means that the spirit is trapped within the body, forcing a second Mortal life on the spirit. When that body is killed *again*, the spirit would be released and move to the next stage, a Ghostly Life, until the spirit is taken to the Rift or is put into yet another dead body to create a new undead.

Difference between Minions and Undead



There are two differences between Minions and Undead, but these two things make the two completely different as well.

The first difference is the physical difference. Minions are formed of shambles of bone and flesh, while Undead are formed of the entire body *or what is left of it*. This means that an Undead’s body is much more stable then that of a Minion, which is why a Minion will die over time, while an Undead will not.

The second difference is how they are made. Minions are created from just a portion of the Necromancer’s energy, while Undead are created from the use of an entire spirit, and probably the creator’s energy as well (and a lot more of it to add). This means that it is more difficult to make an Undead compared to making a Minion.

Afflicted



Afflicted, despite their origins, are very much like undead, and can even be considered a sub-species of undead. They are created by Shiro when he does not move spirits to their destination. Whether they are spirits put into a body like other undead or are literally created by the plague and not Shiro's immediate actions, I have yet to find out.

However, in the Minister Cho’s Estate mission, Cho dies, then he becomes an afflicted. Vizunah Square mission, those affected by the plague (those that are maddened, and hostile) and those just in the nearby area become afflicted after they die. This supports that the Afflicted are in fact undead. But it is not enough to confirm such.

Also, there are the quests The Chalice of Corruption and Chasing Zenmai. These two quests show the ability to “imbue” the affliction without the help of Shiro, and well after he is sent into the Realm of Torment. This then goes against the idea that the Afflicted are a form of undead. But, like above, this is cannot fully disprove the undead connection.

All that is known for sure is that Shiro can control spirits.

So Afflicted are either a different type of Undead, or they are corrupted bodies and souls.

Shiro'Ken



Shiro'ken are also very much like Undead. Also created by Shiro like the Afflicted, these are only created by immediate actions by Shiro. In order to create Shiro'ken, he must take spirits and bind them to souls stones, which then control armor and other objects *the humanoid seem to be armor while the others seem to be statue or something of the like*.

So Shiro'ken are spirits that are bound to formerly inanimate objects, just as Undead are spirits that are bound to formerly inanimate bodies.

Liches



Liches are powerful magicians that casted a spell before they died that would preserve their spirit in their body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In modern fantasy fiction, a lich (IPA: /ˈlɪtʃ/) (sometimes spelled liche, cognate to German Leiche"corpse") is a type of undead creature, usually formerly a powerful magician or king, who has used evil rituals to bind his intellect to his animated corpse and thereby achieve a perverse form of immortality.
There are three known Liches – Vizier Khilbron, aka The Lich Lord, Palawa Joko, and Zoldark - and of these liches, only one's origin is known. That being Khilbron, an Orrian Vizier who was corrupted by Abaddon and used an ancient scroll to destroy Orr, which in turn, transformed him into a lich. Palawa Joko's and Zoldark's origins are unknown as of now, and it seems that Zoldark will not be mentioned again in the future as he was just a side-boss that we killed *supposedly, it is unknown if he, like Joko and Khilbron, can reanimate himself*.

As I just stated, Palawa Joko and Vizier Khilbron can both reanimate themselves upon death. That is, their souls do not leave their bodies. This is the main thing that separates a "True Lich" from the powerful Undead that lead others. It is because of this, that Zoldark may not be a "True Lich," but just a powerful undead. It is also known that "True Liches" have to be killed in a very specific way, such as how we kill Khilbron.

Vizier Khilbron

Vizier Khilbron became a lich, supposedly, during the events of the Cataclysm. He read an ancient scroll, which sunk Orr, after that, Khilbron is known to be a lich, controlling the Orrian Army as Undead.

There is an issue here though. Usually, when a Necromancer (of any caliber) dies, his minions, or in this case undead, would die with him. This is shown with Zoldark, when what causes the raising of Undead dies, those undead that were raised die too.

This proves that Khilbron was not what caused the raising of the Undead in Orr, so there are only two possible sources. These are The Cataclysm, caused by Khilbron, and the Undead Dragon – nicknamed "Malchor" by the GW2 wiki. The Forbidden Scroll that caused The Cataclysm most likely holds the power of either Abaddon or Dhuum, so instead of when Khilbron dies, when whoever’s power is in the scroll dies, the Undead would to. Abaddon was killed in Nightfall, but the Undead are still around a year later, in Eye of the North, therefore, if it was the scroll which turned everyone into an Undead, it would have to be Dhuum’s power.

There is a hole though, there are about five or six spirits from Orr in the Realm of Torment. Also, where are the Undead Charr? Such a general spell would not choose between them, and although Khilbron could have the Undead Charr killed off (for prejudice reasons), he could not control those spirits, so they would not have made it to the Realm of Torment.

This is where my theory comes in. The Cataclysm simply killed the Orrians and Charr, and sunk the Orrian Peninsula, and it was the "Malchor’s" power which animated the Orrians, and Khilbron.

Khilbron was influenced the most due to his proximity; he was in the Catacombs of Orr, and therefore the closest to "Malchor." It is also possible that Khilbron was a lich long before the Cataclysm, as he was around since the Second Great Corsair War (which happened in 982AE, about 90 years before the Cataclysm). He could have done something to what Svanir did with Drakkar, that is, call upon "Malchor’s" power.

At the time of the Cataclysm, it is possible, if Khilbron was a lich before the cataclysm that is, that he tried to use "Malchor’s" power again, which did a wide spread turning of people into undead. This would have had to be done this way, as if it was Khilbron’s own power, the Orrian Undead would now be, well, dead.

Palawa Joko

Now, we get to Palawa Joko, everyone’s favorite bad guy in Guild Wars.

Palawa Joko has no known past, and the first mention of him is in 757 AE, where he makes his Bone Palace. This means he was probably born (as a human) no later then 700 AE. There is absolutely nothing else on him, so from here on about Palawa Joko, is a hypothesis.

I believe, that Palawa Joko, like Khilbron, “called forth” the power of "Malchor." I believe this because the Awakened Undead and Joko have closer similarities to Orr then anywhere in Elona, at least in my observations. Orr has an Arabic background (most dominant in the naming system), the Awakened have Egyptian backgrounds, Cyrstal Desert seems to have Sahara backgrounds, Istan has Madagascar similarities, Kourna has eastern Africa, and Vabbi has South Africa. I may be wrong in these connections, if so sorry and correct me.

I think that Palawa Joko was once Orrian, and whether on purpose or accident, used "Malchor’s" power (most likely accidentally finding but purposely using). He seems like a power hungry “person” so he could have been searching for ancient knowledge in the Catacombs of Orr, and accidentally found "Malchor," or at least “Malchor’s” magic seeping out.

After becoming an Undead, I believe tried to make an Undead Army, but was exiled (since they could not kill him), where he fled across the Crystal Desert, and into the Desolation. From there, he did some grave robbing and Giant killing in order to start his undead army, and slowly built up and then came forth the Scourge of Vabbi.

Again, little to back this up, so it is a hypothesis.

Zoldark

I believe that Zoldark, seemingly the oldest of all undead, as his army’s name implies (Ancient). He would be considered a different class of a lich. Instead of being able to “chain his soul” to his body, he can chain the souls of others to their bodies, forcing them to serve no matter how many times they die.

Because of his inability to make himself “immortal,” once he died, his entire army did too, as his magic is what kept their souls constantly chained to their bodies.


It is hard to figure out what kind of Lich Mad King Thorn is – if at all – due to the lack of information on him, but I would believe that he has nothing to do with “Malchor.”

In this, I summarize that it is "Malchor’s" power that allows one to become a “True Lich,” while any other lich are just able to control Undead, and in powerful cases, bind their souls to their bodies until the lich’s death.

Undead Dragon (a.k.a. “Malchor”)



Sadly, very little is known about the "Malchor" residing under Orr. But what is known is that it is able to change both living and dead into draconic undead servants. This implies that "Malchor" acts very similar to that of a "True Lich.” Also, with it’s possible ability to create “True Liches” himself, he could be a combination of both Zoldark’s power and a “True Liches” power. In that, the “True Liches” he makes are in fact just simply very power Undead (like Zoldark) who are bound to be eternal servants (until "Malchor’s" own death).

This may mean that, in GW2, when we kill “Malchor,” Palawa Joko may end up dying as well.

I Will Heal You Ally

I Will Heal You Ally

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2007

In my HoM

Canthan Refugees [TOGO]

E/Rt

Nice stuff... and if we kill the dragon*
Nona say that they'll be our enermy

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

I wouldnt attribute everything to the Undead Dragon just yet. I have said in the past that it could be a possible source of some magic (such as the magic used in The Cataclysm) but all in all we dont really know a thing about it. Infact we dont know if it was undead all along or it simply became undead at some point (in a twist The Cataclysm could of affected it to some degree).

Theres also the main (Or common amongst the dragons) power of the Ancient Dragons you have to consider - each one is able to breathe life into objects (the object and effect is has varies between them - Rock can become Destroyers, Water becomes Tenticles and Earth becomes Corrupt - so corpses could become Undead). For all we know that ability could be the reason for the Undead it spawns rather than the dragon itself being a lich.

Something interesting about Palawa is that unlike both Zoldark and the Lich Lord he doesnt seem as in command of his forces. Zoldark had direct control as did the Lich Lord....but Palawas army is pretty lacking. They can even rebel it would seem, and half of them were taken over by Karah Ossa.

Joko does show the abilities of the previous Liches (as evidenced by his slaying of the Gray Giants of the Gray Oasis) but along with his inablity to die and his lacking command he seems very very different from them. It could be possible that he was never human to begin with.

Also as evidenced by the rare encounter you can have with him in the Norn Fighting Tournament, he considers anyone that loses to him a new soul for his army.

Lady Syve

Lady Syve

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2008

PWNZILLA team

X Legion Of Doom X [LOD]

Very interesting. I enjoyed the read.

Gmr Leon

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner View Post
Also as evidenced by the rare encounter you can have with him in the Norn Fighting Tournament, he considers anyone that loses to him a new soul for his army.
Can we really take anything in the Norn Fighting Tournament seriously though? I mean, what with the Alesia joke fight, and everything..It decreases the validity of any information taken from there.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner View Post
I wouldnt attribute everything to the Undead Dragon just yet. I have said in the past that it could be a possible source of some magic (such as the magic used in The Cataclysm) but all in all we dont really know a thing about it. Infact we dont know if it was undead all along or it simply became undead at some point (in a twist The Cataclysm could of affected it to some degree).
As I said in the GWO thread of this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myself
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jair of the Forest
This is your hypothesis and therefor you'll probably have more people disagreeing than agreeing with this, but that doesn't matter for the moment. I just felt that I needed to say that it is a bit far-fetched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmr Leon View Post
Yeah..I find it much, much, more likely that the original idea held behind the transformation into a Lich was the proper one. That is, some kind of disaster occurs due to a person transforming into a Lich.

At least in that scenario we have an explanation for the Scarab Plague's origins and Joko's origins. It's still farfetched, but to a lesser extent.

To put it simply, I think you're having Ancient Dragon syndrome, except in a different direction this time.
Although the Scarab Plague-Joko connection do hold some value - which was where I originally place Joko's origins in my first version of the Undead research - the "Malchor" connection was just a thought that came to me, which I thought needed to be thrown out there to be known.

Currently, it is near impossible to tell which of the two would be more correct, unless we get some history on Joko or Zoldark, both ideas are possible.

We only know of Khilbron's origins so I just put out the idea of "Malchor" being the source of "True Liches."

And no, not having Ancient Dragon syndrome. I was just expanding on the idea of "'Malchor' was the power behind the Orrian Army becoming Undead."

I am currently on the fence of the "Major Disaster occurs as well" theory and the "Malchor is the source" theory *or hypothesis, whichever*. And I just wanted to bring this out, I was tempted to throw both ideas into the thread, but then there would be inconsistencies and last time that happened, many people were confused. :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner
Theres also the main (Or common amongst the dragons) power of the Ancient Dragons you have to consider - each one is able to breathe life into objects (the object and effect is has varies between them - Rock can become Destroyers, Water becomes Tenticles and Earth becomes Corrupt - so corpses could become Undead). For all we know that ability could be the reason for the Undead it spawns rather than the dragon itself being a lich.
In a way, that would be the Dragon's magic, so it would be a lich if it turned things into undead, for the most part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner
Something interesting about Palawa is that unlike both Zoldark and the Lich Lord he doesnt seem as in command of his forces. Zoldark had direct control as did the Lich Lord....but Palawas army is pretty lacking. They can even rebel it would seem, and half of them were taken over by Karah Ossa.

Joko does show the abilities of the previous Liches (as evidenced by his slaying of the Gray Giants of the Gray Oasis) but along with his inablity to die and his lacking command he seems very very different from them. It could be possible that he was never human to begin with.
I think that this is more due to the Awakened Undead losing their leader. No chain of command means chaos, so the "generals" (I suppose) got their chance to rebel. We never see the other undead having a chance to rebel, so we don't know if they can or not. Seeing how, after Khilbron's death, the undead then go into their own groups (one into the Far Shiverpeaks, one into the Bloodstone Caves, one into Heart of the Shiverpeaks, etc.) they seem to rebel against Khilbron's original order, to attack Kryta. With this, it could be that Khilbron, like Joko, used fear to control the others, and with that fear gone, they no longer follow either Khilbron or Joko.

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Can we really take anything in the Norn Fighting Tournament seriously though? I mean, what with the Alesia joke fight, and everything..It decreases the validity of any information taken from there.
Yes?

While him appearing in the Norn Fighting Tournament shouldnt be included in the lore, his dialogue there is basicly an extension of him. It also fits with his actual personality. I'm not exactly pointing at a huge plot he reveals in his dialogue or anything - i'm talking about his attitude in the dialogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin
In a way, that would be the Dragon's magic, so it would be a lich if it turned things into undead, for the most part.
What i was saying was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Post
This implies that "Malchor" acts very similar to that of a "True Lich.” Also, with it’s possible ability to create “True Liches” himself, he could be a combination of both Zoldark’s power and a “True Liches” power.
In this part you say he acts similar to a True Lich. What i'm saying is a Lich is one able to reanimate and command the Undead. But they cant turn pieces of rock into a living thing. For all we know the Undead Dragon used the first thing it came across and brought it to life - its power is to create a Lifeforce. Liches are restricted to Reanimating. Its breath doesnt turn the living into Undead - it breaths life into corpses. And when a corpse is seen walking around its generally thought of as Undead.

Quote:
Seeing how, after Khilbron's death, the undead then go into their own groups (one into the Far Shiverpeaks, one into the Bloodstone Caves, one into Heart of the Shiverpeaks, etc.) they seem to rebel against Khilbron's original order, to attack Kryta. With this, it could be that Khilbron, like Joko, used fear to control the others, and with that fear gone, they no longer follow either Khilbron or Joko.
Do we know if those Undead were Khilbrons to begin with? this seems like the Faranur thing about Undead being reskinned. They behave very differently from the forces that attacked Kryta (The ones who look like they are summoning something, the ones inside Bloodstone Caves who gather around a couple of Realm of Torment structures)

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner View Post
In this part you say he acts similar to a True Lich. What i'm saying is a Lich is one able to reanimate and command the Undead. But they cant turn pieces of rock into a living thing. For all we know the Undead Dragon used the first thing it came across and brought it to life - its power is to create a Lifeforce. Liches are restricted to Reanimating. Its breath doesnt turn the living into Undead - it breaths life into corpses. And when a corpse is seen walking around its generally thought of as Undead.
The issue I have with this is that it turned living Corsairs into Draconic servants, seemingly Undead. Also "breathing live into corpses" is, in a way, the same as reanimating a corpse.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner
Do we know if those Undead were Khilbrons to begin with? this seems like the Faranur thing about Undead being reskinned. They behave very differently from the forces that attacked Kryta (The ones who look like they are summoning something, the ones inside Bloodstone Caves who gather around a couple of Realm of Torment structures)
The situation would be very different then the Fahranur undead, as the "evidence" there was the dropped Orrian armor.

For this, I think it is more apperent that these undead are the Orrian undead. Of course, this is not the case for the Undead in Vloxen Excavation or Cathedral of Flames.

In What Lies Beneath, the Orrian undead are renamed, sharing the names with many of the more common Undead in Eye of the North. This, along with the Centaur and Charr skin sharing, and slight name change, it can be surmised that many of the EN Undead are of the Orrian Army. Mainly, the ones in Shards of Orr, Varajar Fells, Heart of the Shiverpeak, and Bloodstone Caves.

For the Bloodstone Caves undead, it is surmised that they are attracted there because of the Bloodstone, which is believed to be the Bloodstone of Aggression.

Also, with the use of Awakened skins as the Ancient Undead, I think ANet made a clear difference between Orrian Undead, and non-Orrian. That is, in Tyria.

As I see it, there are four Undead Armies: Orrian, Awakened, Ancient, and Skeletal (FoW). Orrian and Skeletal share skins, and Awakened/Ancient share skins (ancient also has some from Orrian mixed in). However, nothing that could be Orrian has non-Orrian skins.

This is does not 100% prove that the undead that I say are Orrian in EN are in fact Orrian, but it seems rather clear to be with all the evidence.

And even if they are not, those in What Lies Beneath are in fact Orrian, I think we can agree with that, and they don't seem to be attacking Kryta relentlessly anymore, so the point still stands.

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
The issue I have with this is that it turned living Corsairs into Draconic servants, seemingly Undead. Also "breathing live into corpses" is, in a way, the same as reanimating a corpse.
Actually the Movement of the World says the dragons forces sink ships which are then brought back up by the dragon and put into his service. It does mention bringing the Corsairs who were on the Island under its rule but it could of simply killed them and then twisted them with its breath.




Quote:
For this, I think it is more apperent that these undead are the Orrian undead. Of course, this is not the case for the Undead in Vloxen Excavation or Cathedral of Flames.

In What Lies Beneath, the Orrian undead are renamed, sharing the names with many of the more common Undead in Eye of the North. This, along with the Centaur and Charr skin sharing, and slight name change, it can be surmised that many of the EN Undead are of the Orrian Army. Mainly, the ones in Shards of Orr, Varajar Fells, Heart of the Shiverpeak, and Bloodstone Caves.

For the Bloodstone Caves undead, it is surmised that they are attracted there because of the Bloodstone, which is believed to be the Bloodstone of Aggression.

Also, with the use of Awakened skins as the Ancient Undead, I think ANet made a clear difference between Orrian Undead, and non-Orrian. That is, in Tyria.

This is does not 100% prove that the undead that I say are Orrian in EN are in fact Orrian, but it seems rather clear to be with all the evidence.
Actually the Bloodstone Caves Undead do not seem Orrian at all. They are tied to the Sentry/Guardian so i would say they were there long before the Liches attack.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Well, I'll be sure to look more into the EN undead at another time. Although on GWO, it's a near universal agreement that the undead that I claim to be Orrian are Orrian, but that's still a fan based agreement.

Also, on a side note, the lore from the Factions Prima Guide has been put up on GWO, and I currently typing it out and will put on Guru (either a new thread or a post on the Archives, probably the Archives), and it seems to have information that would benefit this research, so I might be doing a revision soon.

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

I wouldnt base too much on it considering its a prima guide.If i remember correctly the Factions guide is the one that calls Shiro a dark sorcerer who had planned everything out -a direct contradiction to what we were shown.

Gmr Leon

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner View Post
I wouldnt base too much on it considering its a prima guide.If i remember correctly the Factions guide is the one that calls Shiro a dark sorcerer who had planned everything out -a direct contradiction to what we were shown.
Well, the Prima Guide is up now, so you can check on what you remembered and decide on if that's correct or not. My own personal take on it is that it doesn't contradict anything, it just provides more backstory, and a more accurate description of the event. Yes, I know that this is off-topic.

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

I was actually talking about this part:

Quote:
It may have been a stirring in his royal blood – however many generations removed – that initially drove his desire to usurp his cousin and take the imperial throne. But somewhere along the way, dark forces corrupted Shiro Tagachi, forces that he south out against the laws of his empire and his gods. He learned the ways of forbidden sorcery and engaged in studies and rituals well beyond the disciplines of the Assassin. He found that these taboo powers were second nature to him, and the darkest forms of magic were the easiest of all.

No one noticed the hate that burned within him until it was far too late.
Originally it was put that nobody knew why Shiro did what he did. The Prima Guide starts out almost right (dark forces corrupting him) and then says he was filled with hate. I dont know what game i played but i saw Shiros mind manipulated into so much paranoia that he decided he must save himself - i dont ever recall him planning to usurp the throne and being full of hatred (Before his death of course).

Perhaps its my interpretation of it being too forward rather than "this may of been what happened". I'll have to read further to see if its just the way the guide is written (though i know Prima have failed horribly before with Prophecies).

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

First:

Quote:
Originally Posted by A History of Violence and Bad Fortune
During preparations for the harvest ceremony he was on edge, talking about a fortune-teller and a choice he must make.

(...)

Abaddon, lord of this realm, sent a minion of his evil to entice Shiro's dark side. Disguised as a simple fortune-teller, this avatar corrupted Shiro thoroughly and used his own black thoughts against him.

(...)

Perhaps she ignited the spark of evil that always resided in him...or perhaps he was a pawn all along.

(...)

My comrades revealed to me that the fortune-teller that poisoned Shiro's mind dwells nearby.
It seems to me, from this and the Prima, that Shiro did have evil within him, and the Fortune Teller brought it out through paranoia. That is, Shiro prepared before hand, just in case the Emperor tried to kill Shiro, but before that happened, what was going through his mind was probably something like: "Should I take him out before he has a chance to kill me? If he tries to kill me, what should I do? Go with my plan, do something else?" etc. etc. Constant contradictions, which led to insanity, or he made up his mind of going through with his plans. This makes the most sense to me. Also, remember, An Empire Divided was meant to be biased, that is, Shiro's side is unknown and that is through speculation and what information was gained through the eyes of Vizu and others who's spirits were brought back by Ritualists.

Going a little bit back on topic:

What I meant by the Prima Guide having information would be the Afflicted (which helps the Afflicted=undead idea), Shiro'ken, and the Ritualist's connections with Spirits.

BrettM

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

From http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orr:

Quote:
The adviser to the king, Vizier Khilbron, who was tricked by Terick, a secret servant of the fallen god Abaddon, took matters into his own hands and read out a scroll, repeating an incantation from a time before the Bloodstones, a time when all four schools of magic could all be wielded at once by one person.
So, apparently it takes magic of the type originally brought into the world by Abbadon to make a lich, at least in Khilbron's case. (How could such magic still operate after the creation of the Bloodstones? Good question.)

If the same applies to Joko, that would explain why the Margonites thought that he might have scriptures of Abbadon hidden away (Coffer of Joko), though Joko does not seem to be a servant, ally, or worshipper of Abbadon. This doesn't help much to place Joko's date of origin, though, except to set a lower limit of 1 BE. The presence of undead in Fahranur and some of the statements of the Dynastic Spirits in the Desolation still seem to me to support the idea of Joko arising about the time of the Scarab Plague.

Is it possible that, since "Malchor" was located beneath Orr, it was actually the release of this powerful magic that turned him into an undead dragon? Or was it some effect of his hidden presence that actually enabled the magic to work for Khilbron in the first place?

Where do the Pre-Searing undead fit into this scheme? Since their existence predates the Cataclysm, they can't have anything to do with Orr or Khilbron. Given the distance between Ascalon and Elona, it also seems unlikely that they are connected to Joko.

Personally, I always question the canonicity of lore material found in Prima guides after my experience with another lore-rich series of games. The guides are great, but can contain some glaring inconsistencies and errors compared to material known to be canon.

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettM
Is it possible that, since "Malchor" was located beneath Orr, it was actually the release of this powerful magic that turned him into an undead dragon? Or was it some effect of his hidden presence that actually enabled the magic to work for Khilbron in the first place?
That would indicate that Abaddon actually knew about the dragons presence (since his plan was for Khilbron to use the magic). Something i've wondered is if the magic originally was the dragons rather than Abaddons. Considering it had an effect alot like the magic that caused the Searing, which is hinted at being created by one or all of the Ancient Dragons.

Of course following that theory would mean i would have to accept the Orrian Dragon as the source of half of the undead walking Tyria.

BrettM

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Runner View Post
That would indicate that Abaddon actually knew about the dragons presence (since his plan was for Khilbron to use the magic).
Yes, that would be implied by any theory that the magic required mana from the dragon to make it work. But it seems likely to me that all the gods knew about the dragons, and I have no trouble believing that the former god of knowledge would know even if the others were unaware. Still, there is exactly zero evidence for either proposition -- magic affected dragon or dragon affected magic -- much less any evidence to show what Abbadon did or didn't know. I just thought the questions should be raised for future consideration.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
Where do the Pre-Searing undead fit into this scheme? Since their existence predates the Cataclysm, they can't have anything to do with Orr or Khilbron. Given the distance between Ascalon and Elona, it also seems unlikely that they are connected to Joko.
The Spirits in the Catacombs are restless, as their name implies. The Undead in the Catacombs were raised by Oberan.

As to your question about which affected which, that was brought up, many times.

I, personally, am on the fence about it, and at the time of writing this revision, I thought that "Malchor" was more likely. My next revision (which will have 3 main parts again - Spirits, Undead, Constructs - with a Mad King Thorn part) will probably include both possibilities.

I didn't include both this time because I thought it would have the same affect as my Spirit's section original "3 possibilities." That is, confusing everyone. But it seems that this way also confused everyone. xD

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

As a note, I think Vabbi is supposed to be Middle Eastern rather than African, at least in architecture.

Also, Palawa does have some ability to bring life to inanimate objects as well as previously living corpses - Carven Effigies (the elementalists among the Awakened) are shaped from stone rather than being Undead. (Unless they're undead in the same way as Shiro'ken and, as some people believe, Jades - spirits bound to an animated construct.)

BrettM

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
The Spirits in the Catacombs are restless, as their name implies. The Undead in the Catacombs were raised by Oberan.
I have a problem with believing that Oberan has the powers of a lich. Even Infantryman Hareh, though he is undead himself, does not actually have the power to raise undead, but can only raise better-than-average minions for the "undead army" he wants. (Though this implies that all undead have at least some necromantic power, since Hareh is a paragon.) It is clear that Oberan has some control over the undead of Ascalon, but is there really evidence that he raised them himself?

I like Draxynnic's idea about the Carven Effigies being constructs animated by a spirit. They do count towards both the elemental bounty and the undead bounty.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
I have a problem with believing that Oberan has the powers of a lich. Even Infantryman Hareh, though he is undead himself, does not actually have the power to raise undead, but can only raise better-than-average minions for the "undead army" he wants. (Though this implies that all undead have at least some necromantic power, since Hareh is a paragon.) It is clear that Oberan has some control over the undead of Ascalon, but is there really evidence that he raised them himself?

I like Draxynnic's idea about the Carven Effigies being constructs animated by a spirit. They do count towards both the elemental bounty and the undead bounty.
There are two places where the Undead are considered Oberan's minions (and not just servants). This is in the Charr in the Catacombs dialogue (by Oberan himself) and the Post-Searing quest chain gained in Sardelec Sanitarium. Every time they are called "minions" and not "servants." Usually, when dealing with Undead servants mean Undead one controls but did not make, while minions mean Undead one made or an actual minion (i.e., a Bone Horror)

For Hareh, he only gains the power of raising Undead - which I believe are actually minions, not Undead, been a while since I did those quests - after gaining an ancient tome. I believe, by learning the spells in the tome, his profession would be considered a Paragon/Necromancer, giving him the power to control undead.

Oberan basically went against the Order, like Verata did, and created real Undead. Whereas Verata went against the Order to figure out how to lengthen minion life.

As for the Craven Effigies, those would be Constructs, not really - in any way other than game mechanics - would be elementals (as there is no enemy type called "constructs").

My next revision of this thread will also include a section on Constructs, since it was (annoyingly) pointed out to deal a lot with Spirits (and that Shiro'ken should be under Constructs and not Undead).

Hyper Cutter

Hyper Cutter

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Knights of the White Eye [HINA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic View Post
(Unless they're undead in the same way as Shiro'ken and, as some people believe, Jades - spirits bound to an animated construct.)
"as some people believe"? Wasn't that all but spelled out in Prophecies?

Gmr Leon

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter View Post
"as some people believe"? Wasn't that all but spelled out in Prophecies?
Not really. Perhaps you're thinking of the Soul Batteries? We never actually see souls being placed into the little Jade Structures that the Jades burst out of.

Free Runner

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

It is never said how the Jade Armours function. Its only ever been assumed that they run on bound souls.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

There are currently two ideas on how the Jade Armors function, at least that I know of.

Idea 1:
Like Shiro'ken and Soul Batteries, they are empowered by souls being placed in them, and then being "mind controlled" by the Mursaat.

Idea 2:
The Jades are Animated by Mursaat infusing their essence into them, removing the need for mind control.