Guild Wars is declining - Need guild help - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

elpedro

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

England

Pirates Of The Searing [YoHo]

Me/E

18 Oct 2008 at 19:55 - 1

Hey guys, this is pretty much new to me posting here on Guru (other than the odd guild ad)

I'm the guild leader of Pirates Of The Searing [YoHo] - you may have heard of us, may not. I would class our guild as highly successful, attracting a huge amount of interest and members; obviously with this you have a large amount of people leaving. However, things are starting to change. Our core players (members and officers) are losing their interest, some have already moved on, others contemplating.

Would you agree that as a game, the content in GW is drying up and an alarming rate - more so for the people like myself who have played since the start? The pressure it is putting on me as 'the lead guy' is crazy, I have people PMing me, leaving posts on the forum complaining of the lack of activity and events taking place. The bottom line however is, we do organise these things, but there is no real desire from the members to take part; they almost seem hypocritical.

YoHo has been ran by more or less the same core people since our first 6 months or so. If they aren't interested and helping as much, the guild will surely come to a halt.

So what do I want for the guild? There's no way I would jump overboard

YoHo will be around in GW2 but until then, I need to keep things moving. Granted, we are still relatively large despite these setbacks (80+ total). I would really appreciate any ideas for boosting activity. As a leader figure, I have been the one who has conjured plans, put together teams, provided the goods in terms of our Ventrilo, forum, website etc. But I am genuinely stuck. Any other similar guilds in terms of age and size experiencing this?

Ty in advance Guru community.

Guardian

mastar of warrior

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

sweden

N/A

Mo/

18 Oct 2008 at 20:03 - 2

I guess all guilds have ups and downs of ppl leaving or staying.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

18 Oct 2008 at 20:08 - 3

Yes, it is declining. My own activity has decreased dramatically, but mainly because I've found something other to do than to wait for GvG's and PuG or friends list AB. Starcraft, Diablo II etc are all pretty hawt.

@Pedro: He's talking about the URL you posted.

jiggles

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

N/

18 Oct 2008 at 20:23 - 4

i 'Play' guild wars for about 14 hours a day. 10 of them hours im standing in my guildhall telling myself to buy another game, the other 4 im gvg'ing and telling myself im crazy. I'm pretty bored with GW atm, been playing for 41 months and with nothing new happening its pretty boring. I totally agree with what your saying.

ReZDoGG

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

Indian Township, ME

Nativ War Party (NWP)

Rt/Mo

18 Oct 2008 at 20:38 - 5

I moved on to Warhammer like everyone else. It does seem kind of "clunky" when you first play it, but if you stick with it long enough, everything seems to get better and better. Guildwars will be a ghost town by end of winter.

wind fire and ice

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Oct 2008

There

[ToA]

18 Oct 2008 at 20:55 - 6

It's declining a bit,honestly its what you would expect to happen in a 3+ year old game.

People who have ben with it since the start are getting tired of it.

As for guild help,these days most people prefer to go guildless,soo good luck making the guild grow.

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

18 Oct 2008 at 21:03 - 7

Unless you are after titles (pointless), going after that last piece of armor or weaponry there really is nothing left to do. Most of the special weekend events only fuel a persons willingness to title grind more. If you eliminate the grind in this game you have nothing to do. Literally. All the highend areas (places of interest for many) are monopolized by specific builds or you need a good guild. PuGs are slowly declining as well. Good players don't/won't PuG which only makes things that much worse. It's understandable that a game over 3+ years old is bound to get stale but I've noticed decline long before GW ever hit the 3 year plateau. I believe some of the nerfs/buffs/changes over the years caused too much collateral damage. I also believe Anet knew this which is why they eventually split PvE and PvP. Too little too late though. The damage was already done. It's very discouraging as a player to spend countless hours developing and learning a build and playstyle to your liking only to have it changed in the blink of an eye.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

18 Oct 2008 at 21:07 - 8

Just accept the fact that there is only so much one can do in PvE without new content.
Probably the best thing you can do is create a gathering place for your guildies that move onto new games. At least that way you get to stay in touch.

It's the people - not the game.

KiyaKoreena

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

USA

Kirins of Holy Light

N/

18 Oct 2008 at 21:23 - 9

We basically put our guild into hibernation until GW2. There are still a few that log in and play a bit, some that come on every few months looking for news, but our guildies are quite self sufficient so we have forgone organizing large outings, running any more contests, or even recruiting (except friends of current members, with the expressed knowlege we have scaled back activities.). All our members have finished all the quests and missions at least once and are off amusing themselves poking at titles or with other games until GW2. We chose to run ours as a social guild and never demanded high activity from anyone and we know many will join back in GW2 because we like each others company. There is only so much a guild leader can to do try to motivate people and once its at that point I say its hibernation time.

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

18 Oct 2008 at 21:28 - 10

Quote:

Would you agree that as a game, the content in GW is drying up and an alarming rate - more so for the people like myself who have played since the start?

While I understand what you mean, there's nothing alarming about a game's experience drying up after thousands of hours of play time.

Me, I'd suggest exchanging emails, so you can find yourselves again in GW2. In the mean time, let the first one with an idea for what to do lead a group and do it. Like, go sightseeing. Every map has something nice to see.

Steboy93

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Feb 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] | Ex-Officer [TAM]

W/

18 Oct 2008 at 21:56 - 11

I imagine the reason it is declining is because more and more players are beginning to accomplish their long term goals and are thus losing interest.

You best bet would be to keep organising events and perhaps to promote keen players who still love gw to officer to lighten your event hosting burden.

Wolf2581

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Joliet, IL, USA

Hardcore Militants United [HMU]

Me/

18 Oct 2008 at 22:42 - 12

It sounds like you need to find people who are not as high-maintenance. Maybe an economy-sized case of Adderall will work out. But to answer your question, no, I do not think the game is drying up. Even after more than three years, I still have plenty I can do.

The underlying problem might be that many players seem to look for instant gratification. They see something they want, and they spend either days upon days working toward it or ridiculous amounts of gold paying someone else to get it for them. Then they get burned out. I have seen it happen with many games, and unfortunately Guild Wars is no exception.

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

18 Oct 2008 at 23:08 - 13

Do you really expect a game to stay new and exciting after 3 years?

If the thought of people leaving the game after years is really surprising to you, you're probably attached to GW on an unhealthy level.

All guilds go dead eventually.

GWEXTREEMFAN

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

in my house

N/A

W/E

18 Oct 2008 at 23:15 - 14

i guess you gotta live with it
all games start to suck at some point
if you're still happy playing gw, give it some tries to find people at still have fun playing, if not give your guild a rest till gw 2

was same with me
guilds gone into a break till gw2 since gw just doesnt give that kind of fun it used to for me and my friends

noneedforclevernames

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

Jay To Much [SrE]

Me/N

18 Oct 2008 at 23:17 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wind fire and ice

It's declining a bit,honestly its what you would expect to happen in a 3+ year old game.

People who have ben with it since the start are getting tired of it.

As for guild help,these days most people prefer to go guildless,soo good luck making the guild grow.

that isn't the least bit true. Starcraft is continuing to expand and it's 10 years old.
English commentaries in Korea
Sending more foreigners to play in Korea
Etc..

Nessar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2008

West Siiiiiiiiiiiiiide

Gwen Has A Thing For [Pyre]

18 Oct 2008 at 23:45 - 16

Well, with my guild/alliance being more of a social type, people can come on for days and poof. Its either, they're bored, they've done everything, they found another game, or they have a life to attend to.

Now, I can say for my guild, we sit around for hours trying to find something to do. We might uw, fow, some hm area once in a while. Otherwise, we're kind of just waiting for anet to add something new...

I kinda don't think the game is dying because there are plenty of newbies who come through piken everyday. Then I kinda do think its dying. We've played the game and soaked it of everything its had. Sure you can chase titles, money, armor, and weapons. What left after that? Not a a lot of people can do UW SC or DoA without a specific build/rank/blah blah. Urgoz and Deep is pretty much dead w/o a guild.

So in conclusion, People have played the game to death, therefore getting bored and obviously the game dies. But there are also those new people who keep it alive...

(I'm obviously coming from a PvE'rs perspective btw >>)

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

18 Oct 2008 at 23:59 - 17

Imo the only thing that will benefit GW now is GW2 and forgetting about it.The oldschool players are bored and moving on and the new players aren't really impressing anyone.

It's like bankruptcy (sp) the intake can't meet the outgoing,making recruitment/maintaining guilds and alliances hard which in turn affects everyone

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

18 Oct 2008 at 23:59 - 18

I have only 20 atm and most have been offline for over a month or a few.Yeah a lot of them have gone on to play WoW and other games.They haven't told me when or if they are coming back except for one.Yeah it is drying up.

dilan155

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

living room

N/

19 Oct 2008 at 01:34 - 19

people are bore, what can you expect eh?. everything is old now and people are moving on to other things.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

19 Oct 2008 at 02:40 - 20

Guild Wars is not declining, it is what it is, players simply lost interest after playing it for 3 plus years.

pamelf

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Australia

Lost Templars [LoTe]

Me/Mo

19 Oct 2008 at 02:44 - 21

Well unfortunately there's not much one can do to promote activity without a compromise from the guildees as well. We've been trying to organize guild activities, like vancquishing together, competitions, a whole lot of things. In the end though it's impossible to organize since only 4 of our memebers ever even bothered to sign up for the forums. *sigh*. I've been looking for a new guild anyway. I'd like one that's a bit more active, and that are actually on at the times I play. I love my guildees, but they just don't make playing fun enough.

P.S. Pumpkin, if people are getting bored after 3 plus years then it is indeed declining. That is exactly what declining means in the context of the discussion.

maraxusofk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

San Francisco, UC Berkeley

International District [id多], In Soviet Russia Altar Caps You [CCCP], LOL at [eF]

W/

19 Oct 2008 at 04:01 - 22

ashes to ashes dust to dust
so too will your guild break, as will its weapons rust
as with all things, the morningtide dawns
to fight against decay is to make the gods yawn

elpedro

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

England

Pirates Of The Searing [YoHo]

Me/E

19 Oct 2008 at 07:47 - 23

One thing I know- we've been around too long, seen our ups and downs, watched many a player come and go, but will never die.

I have contemplated but if, like me, you created a guild back in Ascalon City with that 100g and been there to watch it flourish, achieve notable status within Guild Wars and become a second home to people; you would never give up on that.

If I take the guild up to GW2 with only 20 members in the roster so be it. I do like your ideas of keeping a record of emails and re grouping when we do finally see GW2.

My suspicion that this was a problem globally in game seems correct. I would also agree starting a guild at this stage in the game and making it any good would be near impossible.

I really really miss the days when content was yet to be fully discovered, you would log online and someone would be chatting about some really cool area or boss, a new weapon skin they found or a cool quest. There is nothing I haven't done in GW; HoH, DoA, Deep you name it

Its the friends I have made that keeps me here.

DoomFrost

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

E/

19 Oct 2008 at 09:03 - 24

After three years of play what can you expect? I've played this game since the BWE's and I'm done with it. I pop in now and again to see how things are going. But I'm completely dried out. You can only play a game so much where it becomes same old same old. Anyways best of luck to you and your guild, hope it doesn't dissolve.

Traveller

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Finland

League of Extraordinary Explorers [LOST] (my one man guild)

Me/

19 Oct 2008 at 10:38 - 25

Well Rurik, some were saying Guild Wars was dying even when you were just a rookie in HoT

But it's really just natural. With no new major content being added, you can only play for fun so much. In our guild we talked about the same thing just yesterday, since there's usually only the few core people on at times.

When you have achieved everything you humanly can (and are not after title grind), your options are limited. Personally I've been doing Alliance battles actively this year, when previously I didn't. The title update in November might bring out some excitement, for a while. But as long as ANet won't add major new content, the decline is going to increase, at least without GW2 news.

Fitz Rinley

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

The Rusty Rose

W/Mo

19 Oct 2008 at 14:50 - 26

I have people tell me they are bored. I ask, "Do you have 30 titles yet? Are all your monuments in the Hall full? Have you done all the extra quests and end game specials? Is your homework done?" If the answer to any of these is no, then it seems they have no reason to be bored. Choice.

Clarissa F

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Fighters of the Shiverpeaks

Me/Mo

19 Oct 2008 at 15:25 - 27

Well, as to the game itself dying....

6 active American districts in Kamadan...4 active districts in LA...even 3 in Kaineng! Plenty of people advertising new guilds, as well.

It's not the same game it was in the beginning. Most people will admit this. It's a more casual game which, if you play less than 10 hours a week, can offer months, if not years, of entertainment.

The problem is, most people posting on the forums aren't casual players. I'd say 99.9% of people running guilds are not casual players. When the game first popped out, a lot of people did what a lot of players do: that new game grind. You get drawn into this game very easy, to the point where you can easily lose track of time. I know I was busting ass for hours at a time in this game, the first few months I was playing it. After a while, though, if you don't slow down, you finish the game pretty fast. Guilds are, hopefully, people with the same interests coming together. They were also almost a necessity in the beginning, when PvP was a huge aspect of the game, and there were no heroes to assist in the harder missions.

Now, most people are playing the game solo. They bust up the levels in Newbie Island, jump to Kamadan to get their heroes, then bust out the game, all without the gameplay need to group. This cuts down on the guild membership necessity. High-end PvP also isn't a cornerstone of the game it once was. I'm not saying it's inactive, just that it isn't something most players think about. It's just not a priority of the game to most players.

I think the more solo aspects were put into the game, the more you had guilds looking empty. That, and there are a lot of games out there, and when paying a subscription, people may feel more of a need to play those games than one with a casual set up, like GW.

Sorry to ramble.

elpedro

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

England

Pirates Of The Searing [YoHo]

Me/E

19 Oct 2008 at 15:54 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveller

Well Rurik, some were saying Guild Wars was dying even when you were just a rookie in HoT

But it's really just natural. With no new major content being added, you can only play for fun so much. In our guild we talked about the same thing just yesterday, since there's usually only the few core people on at times.

When you have achieved everything you humanly can (and are not after title grind), your options are limited. Personally I've been doing Alliance battles actively this year, when previously I didn't. The title update in November might bring out some excitement, for a while. But as long as ANet won't add major new content, the decline is going to increase, at least without GW2 news.

Granted, the amount of content that's been released since HoT (NF, HM, additional titles etc) - but now we've gone over 12 months since the last major content release (EotN) I understand what you're saying though.

How is HoT these days?

ElinoraNeSangre

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Near Seattle, WA

Talionis De Cineris [EXUR]

N/Me

19 Oct 2008 at 23:13 - 29

Try joining an alliance, and see if you can recruit new players. One of the problems is that GW is so solo friendly (in terms of hero/hench) that a lot of people skip the social aspect. Like minded people exist, you just have to find them. Part of the problem is that GW is mired in tiny guilds of people that are just in guilds to be in guilds, and aren't really interested in building anything out of it. Because you don't have to be in a guild.

I suggest stepping back and determining what makes your guild special? Why should people join yours?

Yes, the active player count of the game is on the decline (I hardly play at all anymore myself), but there's a lot of people who still play if they'd just band together. I've seen a similiar effect in the game I do play now, where we had a decline and then spiked back into getting lots of players. To recruit for our clan, we are really active on message boards for the game, make sure our name is in the sig of our members, and just make a name for ourselves, and that's how we recruit.

The problem with GW seems to be that people don't want to be recruited. What it would really take is someone sitting down and trying to really rally people to an active guild/alliance. Events should be carefully planned - a lot of events sounds great on paper, but in reality it's a lot of work, a couple a month with high attendance is much better than a bunch of small ones. And try to come up with events that really need to be in a group - maybe Underworld or FoW, or SF, or some really hard mission. Find something that people WANT to do in a group.

The big problem from where I'm at is that it would take a pretty big push for people to band together into an active guild/alliance, and many people just won't bother.

I do wish you luck, though - I would love to see some aspects of this community do better, and guilds are definately one of them. You sound like a nice group and I hope you can find some ways to help perk things up.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

20 Oct 2008 at 00:06 - 30

Our guild got quite a few weeks play by trying speed runs of elite areas, like Urgoz, see how fast you can do it, you could even run team contests within a large guild with prizes.

We also found, that despite many many hours gameplay, there are some things that not everyone had done. eg, the Deep was a complete mystery to most of our members. So organise events based on things that some members haven't done before.

You could always "go with the flow" on the weekend events, but that is very limited, some weeks everyone just says naaa.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

20 Oct 2008 at 00:11 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I have people tell me they are bored. I ask, "Do you have 30 titles yet? Are all your monuments in the Hall full? Have you done all the extra quests and end game specials? Is your homework done?" If the answer to any of these is no, then it seems they have no reason to be bored. Choice.

Just because you have something to do doesn't stop things from being boring to you.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

20 Oct 2008 at 00:17 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I have people tell me they are bored. I ask, "Do you have 30 titles yet? Are all your monuments in the Hall full? Have you done all the extra quests and end game specials? Is your homework done?" If the answer to any of these is no, then it seems they have no reason to be bored. Choice.

It's pretty boring to do any of that, less all of it.

R_Frost

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

California

Me/

20 Oct 2008 at 03:31 - 33

yeah i would say the game is in the transition phase where alot of people are trying new games due to the stale state of guild wars. sure you can title grind, ive done some title work but im waiting to see what changes comes with the update next month. hell whats the hurry to max out titles, dont we still have a year or more to GW2? as much as people have said they want 7 heros due to the lack of player activity in the game, i wouldnt be surprised to see it tested in GW1 as GW2 gets near. ive backed down my play time by over 50%, i use to be on playing or not about 2-3 hours a day, about 5 days of the week. now im lucky to get 4 hours over 7 days.

Fitz Rinley

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

The Rusty Rose

W/Mo

20 Oct 2008 at 04:17 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally posted by Tyla

Just because you have something to do doesn't stop things from being boring to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally posted by Snow Bunny

It's pretty boring to do any of that, less all of it.

Choice.

"Love isn't someplace that we fall
It's something that we do ..."
~ Clint Black

It is the same about being bored. One's happiness is not dependent upon a game, a person, an event, a grade, etc. One chooses the standard at which one will be happy rather than bored.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

20 Oct 2008 at 04:24 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Choice.

"Love isn't someplace that we fall
It's something that we do ..."
~ Clint Black

It is the same about being bored. One's happiness is not dependent upon a game, a person, an event, a grade, etc. One chooses the standard at which one will be happy rather than bored.

Your quote and reply bears little relevance to either of our points.

A quote about love doesn't change the fact that the PvE replayability is next to nothing and PvP is in a shithole and has been for quite some time.

Neither of which makes the game fun to play.

Emperor Bush

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

Pandas of a Thousand Gentlemens or Something [LOD]

20 Oct 2008 at 04:25 - 36

Starting 2 years ago, I played for about a year. Straight. I don't remember eating or sleeping for that year. I had a lame guild that never did anything. Once maxing out my charecters, I found endless hours of entertainment farming FA(final assault, and Tombs. I loved it.

About 2 months after Eye of the North came out, my computer went *poof*, and I didn't play again until this month. I had been kicked out of my lame guild, and have joined a new lame guild that does nothing but ask each other for money.

And now nobody farms FA or tombs anymore. NOBODY! It sucks. I ask people where everyone went, and they say "Domain of Anguish". So I go there, and can't even find a group going out without heroes.

So I've spent the last two weeks trying for my vanquisher titles. Just me, my heroes, and my henchmen. I preferred doing FA and tombs over and over again with strangers.

I really just want to farm FA and tombs all night (with people). But since that isn't an option, and I haven't found anywhere that people meet up to farm together, I don't think my second run in GW will be lasting too long.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

20 Oct 2008 at 04:28 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I have people tell me they are bored. I ask, "Do you have 30 titles yet? Are all your monuments in the Hall full? Have you done all the extra quests and end game specials? Is your homework done?" If the answer to any of these is no, then it seems they have no reason to be bored. Choice.

All those things are boring, but 7 heroes would definately make the whole game fun again.

But I thought that when I was fed up of GW 6 months ago, everyone else still loved it, had great guilds and find a group of 8 to do everything they wanted in the game.

Other MMOs have remained fun for more then 3 years, they just have a fee and listen to their player base when 80% want something improved about the game.

Hey, I still enjoy playing Baldurs Gate and any Elder Scrolls game again and again and again and still am not fed up of them.

Crunk N Monkey

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Bellevue Nebraska

The Mystic Tokers

R/D

20 Oct 2008 at 09:39 - 38

I agree with this entirely, its getting harder and harder to keep numbers up and most treasured members and friends are leaving, not only the guild but the game as well. To me, ArenaNet, NCsoft, Guild Wars told us that the time gap between EotN and GW2 there was going to be plenty of new material to come out and keep us happy. So far we have M.O.X., the fire imp for lvl 19 and below, new weapons. and a few buffs over the past year, and we still have to wait another 6-8 months for the possible BETA release and 14-18 months for the real thing. Hopefully with the holidays coming up some people will come back for the Halloween, Thanksgiving, and Wintersday Events. I guess thats probably the reason why the economy has declined so much as well, prices are down, people arent making that much money, recruiting is getting harder by the day. My guild use to have 70 members most of them active, not anymore, its just 14 now. The rest havent been hard from in like 2-4 months.

Titles, well, when you have been playing the game for 3 years, titles is easy, but if you've been playing for like a year or less, and you know GW2 is around the corner, you lose motivation to go for it knowing that when GW2 comes out you'll be most likely still trying to achieve that title.

AcidDaze

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2008

EKSF

E/Me

20 Oct 2008 at 10:24 - 39

i've only been playing since last year (have yet to receive my 1yr bday prezzie) so i personally have quite a few titles i still want to persue but, my friend has been playing for even less than that and i'm struggling to stop him from being tempted by WoW

so i'll repeat what others have said, you will survive until GW2 by doing nothing, then thrive when theres something to do again...

Pucca

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mo/

20 Oct 2008 at 13:29 - 40

While it is all sad and true that the game is declining as the monotonous and repetitious game play finally stinks into players, it is oddly a positive. Yes a positive. After running into an article about gaming addiction, I honestly believe that how Guild Wars has collapsed upon itself through lack of consistent content, benefited players as it stopped depressing sites like this http://www.wowdetox.com/ from appearing.