Heroes and Caster Spears

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

My heroes have been living life mostly with whatever random high-req golds I've picked up that are too nice a skin to merc, but too bad mod-wise for my characters. For the casters, that's mostly meant staves.

However, recently I've been giving some thought to tossing most of my casters' staves/wands and outfitting them with spears.

What's the consensus on caster spears for heroes? More specifically: Does it cause the AI to behave stupider than normal in some way? Do they auto-attack often enough to take advantage of EBSofHonor/orders/barbs/MoP? Do they need a focus to avoid running out of energy, or can they use a shield? Any other issues to be aware of?

Frozen Bacon

Frozen Bacon

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2008

Well, because a spear's attack range is shorter than a wand/staff's range, you will be putting your caster hero in more danger.

Also, if you bring along a hero carrying splinter weapon, he/she will waste it on the caster unless you micromanage.

Heroes in general are stupid enough already. Let's not confuse them anymore.

Zamochit

Zamochit

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

N/A

Heroes cant weapon swap - so giving spears to most casters is gimping them tbh

They are generally better off with 40/40 sets

Luminarus

Luminarus

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2007

Sydney, Australia

Haze of Light [pure]

R/

It depends, personally coz I find heroes cant manage energy, running a 40/40 doesnt make much difference. I also find that weapons on heroes dont make much difference at anyrate.

Imo, its not worth spending the money on it. If you have the spears give em, if not dw bout it. Since they already have golds with crappy mods, then its not much difference. Also i didnt think spears had less range then wands, thought it was the same: shortbow range, but i could be wrong. At any rate 1/4 an aggro circle isnt going to put them in that much danger

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Spears can differentiate party positioning (3 hero casters with spears will form "separate group" in front of henchmen with caster weapons). Which is nice whenever you face AOE.

They can also use upgrades not aviable to casters (condition lenghteners)

They also have better generic upgrades (not attribute linked) which makes then more suited for build switching.

Rothan Celt

Rothan Celt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2008

Aura

Mo/R

40/40 sets for heros imo depends on there max health. Random greens work fine but spears would not be good as they are a waste of weapon spells and spears have a shorter range than wands/staffs so no its not a gr8 idea.

The Meth

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

If you have splinter weapon, giving caster heroes spears will make you cry.

If you don't have splinter weapon, get splinter weapon.

Perfected Shadow

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Spears can differentiate party positioning (3 hero casters with spears will form "separate group" in front of henchmen with caster weapons). Which is nice whenever you face AOE.
Aren't you better off flagging the heroes apart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
However, recently I've been giving some thought to tossing most of my casters' staves/wands and outfitting them with spears. Caster spears can go on monks (the only ones most likely set to avoid combat). I usually put +60 HP staves on the rest. I really don't want to have squishies moving farther out front than they have to.

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

The only reason, imo for casters to have spears is if you have a necro and intend to bring mark of pain. Because then you have an incentive to gain an extra 40+ damage by each caster who chucks a spear on a target.

Other than that, I believe you should just stick with caster weapons.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Depends if you're fighting anything that the AI is programmed to use on someone with a wand/staff out.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post
The only reason, imo for casters to have spears is if you have a necro and intend to bring mark of pain. Because then you have an incentive to gain an extra 40+ damage by each caster who chucks a spear on a target.

Other than that, I believe you should just stick with caster weapons. spears are caster weapons. stick a +5e and a defensive or fortitude mod on that spear and you can usually out-perform traditional "caster weapons"

BrettM

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
I'm not sure I follow. Splinter isn't going to any less damage on a caster unless the caster delays so much that it wears off with hits unused or the splinter carrier is dumb enough to recast it on the caster while the old copy still has hits left, is it? A caster hero should be spending most or all of his time casting, not chucking spears, so I would expect most of the hits will wasted. If they aren't, it's probably a sign that the build needs some work. Also, the damage done to the target foe is going to be pathetic, since the caster doesn't meet the req of the weapon and has no spear attack skills. You can get the same type of problem with a hero monk carrying Strength of Honor or Judge's Insight. When I carry a Totem Axe, the hero will cast it on me, and I'm certainly not going to run into the front line to take advantage of the buff.

Since the AI seems to identify you by weapon based on these observations, the best use of a caster spear is for a non-combatant monk hero, to keep him from attracting caster hate in PvE. I haven't seen any actual data on whether this really works, but it sounds like a nice theory, so I go with it. But, being non-combatant, casting Splinter Weapon on him would be a guaranteed waste.

I like carrying a spear, myself. I can call a target without accidentally moving toward it, unlike an axe or sword. When solo farming, I can chuck a spear at a foe fleeing Sliver Armor to make him come back in range. I'm surprised that caster-modded axes and swords aren't extinct by now, given the advantages of a spear.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
Depends if you're fighting anything that the AI is programmed to use on someone with a wand/staff out.
Blah, I don't have that much storage space...

Quote: Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
A caster hero should be spending most or all of his time casting, not chucking spears, so I would expect most of the hits will wasted. Splinter lasts 20 sec. Are they not going to toss a spear 4 times in 20 sec?

Quote:
Also, the damage done to the target foe is going to be pathetic, since the caster doesn't meet the req of the weapon and has no spear attack skills. Doesn't matter. The point of the spear is to trigger buffs and hexes that require physical damage.

Quote:
Since the AI seems to identify you by weapon based on these observations, the best use of a caster spear is for a non-combatant monk hero, to keep him from attracting caster hate in PvE. I haven't seen any actual data on whether this really works, but it sounds like a nice theory, so I go with it. But, being non-combatant, casting Splinter Weapon on him would be a guaranteed waste. Yes, it would seem that caster spears on hero monks is unwise.

BlackSparrow

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2008

Spears can be useful on caster heroes. It has a faster attack rate than staff but a shorter range, which is the biggest drawback.

+5e inscription, condition/elemental prefix, and hp or enchant postfix.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

I've been using staves on my heroes. The HSR on all spells is nice, although I don't really need it. I think I might switch to spear/focus. The additional energy is about 7 IIRC. But if it means AI spreads anti-melee to them that might be better than anything ;o

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Mmm, I have + 60hp staves on my heroes, dk why, just cant bother with cool looking shield/spear, besdies they cant weapon swap and 40/40 is kinda useless, so to me, them having more health is best option.

But honestly I think +60hp spear/shield set is the best, just for armor's sake.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

If you want a spear, use the common defensive set used on players (+5E / +30HP, +10AL vs. *Type* / +30HP). If you want casting benefits, either use a 40/40 set or a 40/20/20 staff. I highly recommend a spear for the defensive set, too.

MisterT69

MisterT69

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

Scions of Carver [SCAR]

E/

Well generally, the spear set is always great to use, but it's power falls out of contention in sabway when some of your heroes are carrying items. But if you'd rather have the higher energy output, the staff's the way to go. Although if you're using 3 necros, the extra 10 energy won't matter as much considering soul reaping > PVE

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

so, in case of ashes, just pick what is cheaper? In my case it is +60hp green staffs, they are cheap, and work nicely.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

That is cheaper, but in terms of efficiency on an N/Rt Healer, I'd go with a 40/40 Resto set. Reason? PWK.

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

Running Mark of Pain would make the advantages of spears all the more obvious.
Although a MM and Assassin Support generally work well enough.

I generally cannot be bothered with what my heroes are carrying. So long as they fulfill their purpose and don't die or run out of energy, I'm satisfied.
In sabway, isn't only one of the necros carrying an item (the healer). So a spear on the other two would synergise nicely with any necro curses thrown on the mob (Barbs and MoP).

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Think about it. PWK is a Restoration skill, and the 40/40 set still affects the stats of PWK meaning you can drop it more often at times.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Yeah I thought about that, and it makes sense because it would at least do something usefull before being replaced by ashes amirite? :P