ON the efficacy of ANET’s PvE skill rebalancing & high end area PUG team formation …

This "problem" can't be fixed unless you can perfectly rebalance the game. Players will always gravitate towards whatever setup generates the greatest return for the effort, which means taking the most powerful build that is still within the ability of the average PuG to use. PvE skills aren't the problem when addressing build variety, they are simply a subset of the real problem: skill imbalance.

Then again, I don't actually think that PuGs had any merit to begin with, so this seems like a non-issue to me.

Randomized content is key here, because it promotes sturdy ("Duality type") party build which is very flexible both in what it can deal with as well as in who it can take along.

Noone would run, i.e., Perma sin if there was huge chance that monsters would have counters (there are plenty of those).

But duality Party would deal with them easily (what is one leech signet or spirit of tranquility or ... to group which does not have single point of failure.).

Problem is that people seem to need formula, a "proper way" of doing something, they can wrap their minds around. Shame.

the problem is obviously the people.

people are always going to flock to the build which is easiest, fastest, most profitable, and fool-proof.

if your profession isn't part of that team build, then you gotta wait till ANET comes out with the next update...and i agree, that sucks.

and nerf SY ?

how could it be possible to handle the hordes of lvl 30 monsters aiming directly at your casters ?

most monsters in doa can kill a caster in less than 5 hits, besides they've got aoe damage, life stealing, hexes, conditions, energy denial, interrupts, knockdown, enchantment removal, and I'm not even talking about HM environment effects or monster skills

balancing pve would mean totally reworking ennemies AI, and adapting difficulty everywhere, which will never happen in GW1

Well in this case I would say prot spirit + cover enchant, like every team has done against spike in HA/GvG since the dawn of time.

But overall you are correct, all of PvE needs reworking.

Not sure what game you are playing. I play Guild Wars. Sounds like you play a game called PUG Wars. I fully understand there are times when not enough people are on in a guild, or the people that are on want to do different things. However, PUGing is there as an outlet, just like heroes and henchmen are. If you can't find people in your guild, alliance, or friends list to help you out, you turn to PUGs and/or hero/hench.

PUGs function on success rate. Since the people joining a PUG don't know the other people, they want to see classes and builds that they know to be effective. Doesn't mean the person playing an HB Monk can keep the team alive, but they see the bar, and know it has a better chance of success than someone running a mix of Heal, Prot, Smite, and Earth Wards.

Yes, skill balances change PUG mentality, but not completely. PUGs will always look for the 'best' option. Adding classes like Mesmer and Paragon to a PUG that is used to the Monk/Ele/War combo adds confusion to people unfamiliar with their strengths. Would be nice if more people knew what can be done, but a PUG isn't where you find out if someone knows how to play.

What's wrong with Pug Wars, I love Pug Wars. They add to the fun, especially in TeamSpeak when guildies join and keep asking me "Where in the name of GO RED ENGINE did you find these people".

I hope ArenaNet really considers how the skill balance impacts the social grouping and interactions of the game. In terms of entertainment, the mixture of Ursan, Alcohol, Pugs and Teamspeak, really was a blast. A lot of things have gone far too competitive in PvE these days. Thank god CoF is still around, at least some place for all the lazy people to chat and let others do the dirty work. Recreational gaming and social connectivity really need to pair up again, all that ultra-HC Permasin, Terra and HFFF is not really playing to the strengths of an online game. Might as well farm the first level of Duke Nukem 3D.

people you fight in ha / gvg are smarter than pve mobs, but they don't have crazy energy denial and interrupt abilities like the margonites anur kaya, they don't hit as hard as an anur vu...

in doa, or other elite areas in hm, ennemies are overpowered to compensate their stupidity, and you have to exploit it to defeat them, that's how the game was designed

let's hope that it will be different in GW2

Half my distaste and reason for never doing any elite areas ever, aside from doing Slaver's to get my LMotN title, was because they had no real reward for finishing them. The overabundance of cookie-cutter builds is the other half.

I think you make it easy to understand that there's definitely a problem with doing elite areas, but there's not really an easy fix. In situations where there might have been a fix, it usually just turns out to be a switch to a different set of builds.

As long there is a reward at the end of something , people will want to get there faster and faster , no skill balance can solve that and anything that doesn't pass the bar is flushed down the toilet. That's why there are no more normal pugs , only farmer groups in elite areas. The best thing to do imo would be to remove Slaver's , DoA , Urgoz and the deep , leave only uw and fow with no pve skills and balance out the normal ones.

This is also a valid point , if pve skills are sorted out on our side , it would be logical that the mobs should be a bit weakened too since it seems that people forget pugs.

Players managed to achieve their vanquisher/guardian titles before the introduction of the Sunspear and Faction PvE skills.

Enfeebling Blood, Aegis, Broadhead Arrow, Defensive Anthem, "Shield's Up!", Protector's Defense, Ineptitude + Epidemic, Distortion, Armor of Earth, Return, Shelter, Union, Armor of Sanctity? Did my best to include a skill from every profession since everyone has the means of defending themselves. The options may not be balanced, or even that good, but they're better than nothing. Throw in some kiting, heck even some snares, and PvE could become more interesting than invincible assassins, tanknspank, and bears.

DoA is not the entirety of PvE. One poorly designed zone does not speak for the level of difficulty in other areas. Besides it's not like you can't kite out of AoE, kite from the Stygian Hungers or ball them for an Earth Shaker/Meteor Shower, have a monk with Divert Hexes plus additional support on the other casters, use Draw Conditions or Foul Feast, use Blood Ritual/Aria of Zeal/Lyric of Zeal/kill QZ/Daze + pressure on the mesmers, have a skill or two interrupted (it shouldn't cause you to wipe), get KDed because 2 seconds isn't too scary in most PvE situations, cover enchantments, or kill enemies one at a time so Enraged doesn't matter.

The environmental effects are just poor design in general because they limit the usefulness of certain professions. Physicals suck in Ravenheart Gloom because of the 50% miss, but they're the best against Mallyx since they're effective without triggering Banish Enchantment or Consume Torment. You can't take a balanced approach to DoA Hard Mode because some professions are inherently weaker regardless of what you make them do.

Which is what Hard Mode should've been. Instead you can apply the same gimmicks of Normal Mode and succeed in Hard Mode. It just takes a little while since enemies have a little more health, might flee from AoE, and can heal some of the damage a little better. Daze still murders casters, blocks and weakness deal with the physicals. Hard Mode just takes slightly longer if approached in the same manner as Normal Mode, that's the only difference.

Or, rather, what they think is the easiest, fastest, most profitable and fool-proof. In a lot of cases, I suspect they're wrong.

I agree with the fact that there is serious class discrimination as I've always struggled to fit my Derv into any pug. Just not accepted as good enough for most...

This was less apparent during the Ursan days though, when all you really needed was max Norn and Max LB to get in. That is THE ONLY THING I truly miss about old Ursan. The "grind" as people call it for those titles was, well, the same grind you would have to do anyway if you were going for GWAMM. So where's the argument in that....

As for your suggestion... I think incentives will go a long way to remedy lots of the issues regarding team formation. But it needs to be done right not to impact too many people (who know no other way of playing this game) negatively. As other people already mentioned, joining the right guild will also help you, as an individual, by eliminating the need for PuGGing and also to raise your standard of gameplay.

Apart from that I see some skills in serious need of attention. Nerv Cry Of Pain for a start. There are lots of other overpowered skills for all classes that needs attention as well. And then look at some of the PvE skills...
It may sound contradictory but I do feel SF could be left as is. Except for UWSC there are few areas where you need more than 1 perma in a team anyway. The dmg reduction also means that it is unlikely to be an efficient choice for damage dealers. The only real use for it is farming which has nothing to do with this topic anyway.

PuG quality... I noticed a rapid decline in the quality of PuGs in ToA recently. DOA Ursan teams were generally mindless key spamming veggies but at least you had success every so often. The UWSC teams are on a level below what I believed possible in this game. Out of the last 7 UWSC attempts, guess how many times I opened the chest?

0...

At 850g a run it becomes an expensive waste of time (that's why, from now on, I'll pop the cons).
Anyway... /rant

I sign for any attempt to remove class discrimination and cookie cutter from GW.
(I'm just afraid it may already be too late)

Anet should buff all maps (elite and non-elite) to give 10hp for each human party member within your bubble, 1 hp regen for every 2 party members, 1 energy regen for every 2 party members.

LOL This is crazy but at least it will encourage players to bring along someone and will eventually kill the 7-Hero issue

I hope you're trolling...

Let me put this to you simply.
I enjoy playing anything but the "holy" trinity.
Sure, I can grind more with them, sure I can make more money, but ummm heres a thought.

Warrior = .03$
Monk = 5$
Ele = 5,656.23$
Killing any enemy and shadow stepping to the next foe and stabbing him in the gut with my daggers I bought from farming my life away
=
Priceless......

I'm sick of people crying over the skills pve system.
Put it simply.
>.>
Give me an excuse not to use a "holy" trinity profession, and then explain to us all why the heck the ele sucks at snaring, the warrior sucks at killing multiple targets and dealing decent DPS, and why a monk cant even defend himself without a ton of skills.
THEN we can talk about fixing the skill system.....
My Conclusion:
Stop crying, here comes GW2.

Trinity is not that great, it's used by players who don't fully understand GW mechanics.

Avarre,
I thought your article was a good read and very good observation too.

but i have to agree with you that he "trinity" mention in your article is not that great, I for one, when playing with H/H don't follow that rule, as I have found out that using my ele as tank and damage taker is better than using the warrior, my warrior hero is alway running around causing chaos for the enemy. While they are trying to kill my elementalist, their casters gets taken down, I don't know what tactic that is, but its working good so far, but this is only limited to when using my elementalistcharacter.

When using Rangers I still use Devona as the damage taker and more flagging of h/h is needed, as they have to spread out, unlike elementalist where I ball them (H/H) up except the warrior.

Fow?
You never did that?
If you didn't - too bad! Those guys really did some superb job there by creating of the best areas in GW.


On-topic:
Says it all.

You do not need to kill Gimmicks.

Who would care about (whatever build) if it could not be relied on working? Most of exploity strategies have singular point of failure.

All it takes to add one random skill to each monster, and you get quite nice chance that they will have hard counter to (whatever build) and in the end it takes just one such monster to ruin run.

+ it would make PVE a lot less static.