best/fastest hero/hench with paragon? (HM)

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

29 Oct 2008 at 04:29 - 1

So what is the best hero/hench with a paragon? I know people say racway, but to be honest, I just don't see the point. It might just be me, but on paper it doesn't look like it does much damage. I've heard people say "auto-attack for 100+" but that's just BS. I auto attack for ~30-40... and that's just normal mode. Also, the build looks like it will have real problems with blocking/enchantments.

I've been looking at sabway, but the problem is that there's no orders... which is pretty essential for an imbagon because of dark fury. So I'm thinking sabway minus n/rt healer plus derv orders, but then it seems like a waste of a slot when my character is the only one really benefiting from it.

So, does any paragon want to share some enlightenment?

Luminarus

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2007

Sydney, Australia

Haze of Light [pure]

29 Oct 2008 at 05:13 - 2

Dark fury isnt essential for an imbagon. Havent really started my gon yet, so otherwise I dunno. I really like sabway, and I personally dont think orders is really necessary on it. You could possibly sub orders skills onto the N/rt healer.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

29 Oct 2008 at 06:18 - 3

Well okay, orders isn't "essential" but it helps a LOT. Without orders if you get blocked, you have SY! downtime. You also probably wouldn't be able to spam your attack skills without orders.

realtalk916

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2008

California

Reign Of Judgment [RoJ]

W/E

29 Oct 2008 at 06:57 - 4

run discord way

and have a reduced dmg build, including save yourselves.

thats about the best a paragon could be imo

Dre

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Belgium

Dutch Doom Brigade

29 Oct 2008 at 08:22 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by realtalk916

run discord way

and have a reduced dmg build, including save yourselves.

thats about the best a paragon could be imo this

12charlimit

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

29 Oct 2008 at 08:25 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Well okay, orders isn't "essential" but it helps a LOT. Without orders if you get blocked, you have SY! downtime. You also probably wouldn't be able to spam your attack skills without orders. I use Discordway with Splinter Weapon. My paragon uses Spear of Fury which would recharge SY even when blocked.

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

29 Oct 2008 at 08:26 - 7

With a discord type steup, run crual spear w/ vicious attack imo.
That's what I'm doing on my sin, so maybe vicious attack will be a little less effective
You can still carry SY, you maybe won't be able to maintain it 24/7 but it's not like you're going to need it.
Dark fury is a great hex to bring in this situation. I know on my sin I can spam asura scan, you may be won't be able to on a para.

Xeng Suey

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Somewhere I belong

Mo/

29 Oct 2008 at 09:12 - 8

Why it always has to be discordway or sabway? DOnt mind answering, i alrdy know the answer: beacause people dont know how to play and N/Rts are the best heroes you can get.

How well i would say to the hell whith that bulls!t (no ofense to anyone). I'm telling you, if i had enough people i would do something like this:

1 warrior earthshaker whith D-pact
3 paragons: basicaly, paragons whith suport skills and spear attacks and i would put flesh of my flesh oon one of them
1 N/Mo curses: mark of pain, barbs, SS, smite condition, smite hex, Great dwarv weapon...
1 dervish order healer: usual build
prot monk (RC)
Healer monk (WoH+Healparty or HB)

Warrior calls target, dervish spam orders,necro hexes target and paragons spear them to death (and it would be darn fast to kill everything).

Since, u prolly dont have people, i would say:

Heal and prot heanchies+fire and earth henchies. Koss (hammer build whith lots of KDs. many people say heroes work bad whith hammers on their hands, but to the hell whith that since u dont have any human arround.... just call the targets and koss will folow them...things will dye dont worrie), Sousuke on SF with glowing and stuff and maybe Magrid or Morgan as spear chukers.

Next week i might do some stuff hard mode in Nightfall (would do other areas, but i only have completed Nightfall whith my paragon yet. It bores me to hell play pve whith heroes and hench) with my paragon. gimme a shout if u want some humans arround (no i'm not retard or bad payer, i only hate to play alone with H/H)

ING: Oo Deus Ex Oo

I hope i'v help you and get out of the usual stuff u'll read in here (not that things are bad, but just the same story all the time)

gl hf

ac1inferno

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Boston

We D Shot Your Stances [GODS]

A/W

29 Oct 2008 at 12:24 - 9

1. [build prof=P/W spear=11+1+1 leader=11+1 command=8+1][swift javelin][vicious attack][save yourselves!][there's nothing to fear!][ebon battle standard of honor][for great justice!][focused anger][aggressive refrain][/build]

2. [build prof=P/any spear=12+1+1 leader=10+2 command=8+1][blazing spear][vicious attack][stunning strike][anthem of envy][anthem of flame][anthem of weariness][aggressive refrain][signet of return][/build]

3. [build prof=P/any spear=10+1 leader=11+1 motiva=10+1+1][spear of redemption][wild throw][merciless spear][song of purification][chorus of restoration][ballad of restoration][aggressive refrain][signet of return][/build]

4. [build prof=D/N blood=10 windp=11+1 mysti=10+1+1][arcane zeal][dark fury][order of pain][mystic healing][vow of piety][dwayna's touch][watchful intervention][faithful intervention][/build]

Oleg

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2008

The Apologetti

29 Oct 2008 at 12:41 - 10

I run a standard imbagon with Sabway and he smashes through pretty much everything in HM. Other builds could be better. This one is damn easy.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

29 Oct 2008 at 22:31 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It might just be me, but on paper it doesn't look like it does much damage. +damage skills are very powerful. Spears are also powerful. Ebon Battle Standard of Honor is absurd.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

29 Oct 2008 at 22:46 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

29 Oct 2008 at 22:49 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc View Post

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

29 Oct 2008 at 23:01 - 14

It's difficult to deny paragons when they're giving you an implacable wall of defense through 10,000 different shouts.

I remember running 6 paragons, 1 nec, 1 monk in HM FoW; the moon ran boonprot

Discordway is lazy way, but you have much less defense.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

29 Oct 2008 at 23:16 - 15

I'd say racway, really good synergies, rly powerful. Another option is necroway, either normal sabway or discordway.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

30 Oct 2008 at 00:53 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

i bolded the part where you messed up. try racway If it's good, then someone should be able to explain, don't just say "try it". I just don't see how it can be better than necroway.

Specifically, how do you get around blocking/enchants?? I mean, rhilon's refuge would be a HUGE pain to do without enchant removal.

And there's no MM?? MM's have been so awesome to me, why would you not have one?

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

30 Oct 2008 at 01:03 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

If it's good, then someone should be able to explain, don't just say "try it". I just don't see how it can be better than necroway.

Specifically, how do you get around blocking/enchants?? I mean, rhilon's refuge would be a HUGE pain to do without enchant removal. Rage more, your team is full of spearchukers, you just power through enchants, also, you can use your brain and give your d/n an enchant removal or rigor mortis if you hate blocking so badly, lol.

MM's are good but slow btw.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

30 Oct 2008 at 02:17 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc View Post

Specifically, how do you get around blocking/enchants?? I mean, rhilon's refuge would be a HUGE pain to do without enchant removal.

Mirror of Disenchantment, Swear Swipe. Or just kill the 10 or so Droughtling's slowly.

Quote: Originally Posted by traversc

If it's good, then someone should be able to explain, don't just say "try it". I just don't see how it can be better than necroway. Think this quote is appropriate:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob fregman

It doesnt require a whole lot of skill to rate a build without testing it. The funny thing about computers and machines is, everything does what it says it's going to do. So you look at atts, skills, etc. and you can pretty much judge a build. It's not like judging an athlete or student, where a weak or dumb looking person can suprise you. Weak skills with weak synergy are, well, weak.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

30 Oct 2008 at 04:06 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Think this quote is appropriate: Racthoh, That didn't answer anything. Guild Wars isn't a simple system where you can just multiply x by itself to get f(x) and say "oh look a quadratic." Guild Wars can't be simulated in your brain or else there would be no point in playing guild wars at all. A newb who has never played guild wouldn't be able to compete with someone who's played a year, even if he studied wikia for 10 hours a day.

Which brings me back to necroway vs. paragonway. necroway does more damage on paper and more AoE and so to me, it looks like a better build. It also has more utility like enfeebling blood, body blocking minions and enchantment removal. I have never played paragonway, so I fully admit there could be something I do not understand about the build. Thus, I am asking which is better/faster/pros-cons etc, preferably from someone who has played both. I am also looking to generate discussion.

I'm not asking for people to tell me to "use my brain" by putting enchantment removal on an orders derv (lol?) or for someone to imply that I don't understand how skills work. I fully understand that you and others have more experience with HM vanquishing than I do - however, I don't believe that makes me deserving of asinine comments.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

30 Oct 2008 at 04:18 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Racthoh, That didn't answer anything. Guild Wars isn't a simple system where you can just multiply x by itself to get f(x) and say "oh look a quadratic." Guild Wars can't be simulated in your brain or else there would be no point in playing guild wars at all. A newb who has never played guild wouldn't be able to compete with someone who's played a year, even if he studied wikia for 10 hours a day.

Which brings me back to necroway vs. paragonway. necroway does more damage on paper and more AoE and so to me, it looks like a better build. It also has more utility like enfeebling blood, body blocking minions and enchantment removal. I have never played paragonway, so I fully admit there could be something I do not understand about the build. Thus, I am asking which is better/faster/pros-cons etc, preferably from someone who has played both. I am also looking to generate discussion.

I'm not asking for people to tell me to "use my brain" by putting enchantment removal on an orders derv (lol?) or for someone to imply that I don't understand how skills work. I fully understand that you and others have more experience with HM vanquishing than I do - however, I don't believe that makes me deserving of asinine comments. There are pros and cons to necroway vs paraway. Paraway has nicer synergy for a paragon but paraway does have problems in some areas in the game (e.g. Charrs outside Doomlore in Dalada Uplands, and symbiosis in northern shiverpeaks that affects your orders or hex heavy areas like Faintheartedness that can affect your rate of SY recharge through slowing down your attack speed) and you have to make big changes to accomodate these areas.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

30 Oct 2008 at 04:21 - 21

You came here for help? I think you must be lost, this is Guru.

Minions primary purpose is actually to serve as decoys, a very powerful defense when your guys aren't even being attacked. Their secondary purpose is of course tons of domage, but you can't really control where the damage goes. An Imbagon provides an insane level of defense all on his own (80%+ damage reduction) so that you don't need the minion defense just to survive, and while dealing less DPS than full sab setup, the damage is perfectly focused on high-priority targets that you call. This allows dangerous or healer mobs to be downed quickly, so then you just have an easy battle mopping up the remaining enemies.

ALF71BE

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2008

In your fridge, stealing your pickles. for mah subway

30 Oct 2008 at 04:22 - 22

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

30 Oct 2008 at 04:28 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

Who cares?

Paras are imba. Worry when you play a profession that requires 0.00001% more skill.

Until then, just run whatever floats your boat. Go Sabway but put Dark Fury on the curses necro, you don't need a high blood magic investment anyways, and run some N/Mo with heavy hex removal and you're set. 82% less damage really makes a difference, dunno if you noted. Just because we claim that a build has its weaknesses, doesn't mean we have no skill. Please name me a perfect build and I will show you its weaknesses.

Imbagons are not as invincible as everyone seem to think. And SY doesn't protect against all damage either. There exists areas in the game where certain damages can get through SY or prevents adrenaline gain or shouts. But of course most people dont know that and still think Imbagons can never ever fail.

ALF71BE

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2008

In your fridge, stealing your pickles. for mah subway

30 Oct 2008 at 04:36 - 24

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

30 Oct 2008 at 05:17 - 25

Dark Fury is not required to maintain a near permanent uptime of "Save Yourselves!", especially after the buff. Dark Fury allows you to use your attack skills more frequently as energy is less of an issue. However it should be noted that unless you are fighting something that can heal itself/others, there is really no reason to use the attack skills at all. With the damage reduction of "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing To Fear!" the henchmen AI is more than capable of keeping up with whatever damage you may suffer. Healer Henchmen from Factions are an exception since they use Blessed Light to removed Cracked Armor caused by Aggressive Refrain; stick with the Protection and Spirit henchmen for Cantha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It also has more utility like enfeebling blood, body blocking minions and enchantment removal. You have the choice of looking over an area to see if any of that is necessary. "Save Yourselves!" makes weakness rather unnecessary, minions are about the same but at least they can explode with Death Nova and hopefully hit something. Enchantment Removal isn't entirely necessary when you have access to Daze, swap to another target, or simply wait for it to expire. When I'm zoning to an area I'm going to optimize my bars for what I think will be the most difficult and frequent encounters. I have Morgahn posted with Hexbreaker Aria to basically say "put what you want here", because in a lot of situations it simply isn't necessary.

Discordway is going to be the better choice on the basis that Soul Reaping probably won't be changed ever again and the odds of PvE skills getting nerfed are just as slim. That and people who run triple necro teams do so with ease but I get people asking me why they keep dying with my setup.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

30 Oct 2008 at 05:29 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

No, the Paras aren't. The team is, though, and then seven allies can both focus on keeping the Paragon alive and deal damage to the enemies.

Besides life stealing, I can't think of any other very dangerous insta-gib damage that the Paras don't protect against. Everything else just can't be spammed enough to be threatening, and you have the N/Mo I mentioned to remove hexes from you (Divert Hexes).

And in the case of life stealing, the henchies are able to outheal it. Further more, since you're using Dark Fury you might as well bring a melee henchie, who will take the life stealing and leave you alone. Don't forget the Imbagon is the only human character in the team who can spam SY so when the Imbagon dies, the whole super SY protecting everyone else concept falls apart. Besides, SY doesn't protect the Imbagon himself.

Life stealing is one, degen is another. Besides SY can also be prevented through proper hexes or impacted by attack speed debuff, block, and so on.

Dark Fury also has its weaknesses, namely the necro hero that is casting it is vulnerable to a 17% life sac every 5s. If you add OOP also into the mix that is a hp loss of 34% life sac every 5s, not even counting monster hits. If you do the math on a 600hp necro, that is a hp loss of 204 hp every 5s without taking even a single hit, which is definitely a drain on healing.

Melee henchies and heroes have pathing problems especially when encountering AoE attacks. The build is far from perfect. Again there is no perfect team build be it paraway or necroway.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

30 Oct 2008 at 05:35 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc View Post

If it's good, then someone should be able to explain, don't just say "try it". I just don't see how it can be better than necroway.

uhm... everything is good about it? crazy damage, invincable, easy, utility, hat more do you want?

Quote:

Specifically, how do you get around blocking/enchants?? I mean, rhilon's refuge would be a HUGE pain to do without enchant removal. switch targets.... duh...

Quote:

And there's no MM?? MM's have been so awesome to me, why would you not have one? MMs are just a distraction and a base for MoP to do some damage. mininons dont do any noticeable damage on their own. when you have SY you dont need to waste a character keeping the enemy off your team.

Xeng Suey

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Somewhere I belong

Mo/

30 Oct 2008 at 08:36 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well, I wouldn't use any other healer than an N/Rt or a Henchie, but I use Sab / Discord because I'm a lazy bastard who can't be bothered microing. ^_____________^

I agree with most of your post however, excluding the Searing Flames bit. I'm glad u point it, because i forget to mention that i use searing flames, not only because of the damge, but also because of the dmg reduction that cames from "Theyr on fire". I would try to fit that shout or chant (or w/e it is) in one of the paras build. Besides...you could always bring other profession, like a rit whith splinter life kaolais chaneling strike or ancestors (in this case i think that rit heroe would have to microed) or ou can take a Domination mesmer whith visions of regret and interrupts....i dotn know, there is so many things you can do, and depending on the area that we could do a entire encyclo pedia about it

gl hf

ALF71BE

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2008

In your fridge, stealing your pickles. for mah subway

30 Oct 2008 at 17:35 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Don't forget the Imbagon is the only human character in the team who can spam SY so when the Imbagon dies, the whole super SY protecting everyone else concept falls apart. Besides, SY doesn't protect the Imbagon himself.

Yes I know. Read again please. You have seven other, near invincible allies, that can and should both protect you and deal damage to the mobs.

so i herd you could link skills from ur heros to ur keyboard and then not die if you're being so annoyingly disturbed by the mobs.

Quote:

degen

Lol.

Quote: Besides SY can also be prevented through proper hexes or impacted by attack speed debuff If you have any experience with a martial class I think you should know by now that you need serious hex removal most of the time. Read my post again.

Quote:

block TAB.

Quote:

Dark Fury also has its weaknesses, namely the necro hero that is casting it is vulnerable to a 17% life sac every 5s. If you add OOP also into the mix that is a hp loss of 34% life sac every 5s, not even counting monster hits. If you do the math on a 600hp necro, that is a hp loss of 204 hp every 5s without taking even a single hit, which is definitely a drain on healing. Never said anything about OoP. And it won't be losing any substantial hp from hits as it won't get hit at all.

Quote:

Melee henchies and heroes have pathing problems especially when encountering AoE attacks. The build is far from perfect. Again there is no perfect team build be it paraway or necroway. I said use the melee as cannon fodder.

And never mentioned anything about perfect builds. Just that you don't need one as long as you have 82% damage reduction (even more with TNtF!).

I think you should reconsider your actual builds if you're having problems in PvE with 82% less damage.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

30 Oct 2008 at 18:33 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

Just because we claim that a build has its weaknesses, doesn't mean we have no skill. Please name me a perfect build and I will show you its weaknesses.

He isn't saying that people are skillless, he's saying that Paragons require little to no skill to be effective. Face it, you can roll your head on the keyboard and come out with good results.

Quote:

Imbagons are not as invincible as everyone seem to think. And SY doesn't protect against all damage either. There exists areas in the game where certain damages can get through SY or prevents adrenaline gain or shouts. But of course most people dont know that and still think Imbagons can never ever fail. Well considering that there haven't been any complaints about Imbagons failing yet, that is possibly true. Just because it doesn't have many counters doesn't mean a few more skill slots can counter those very counters will mean anything; the huge defenses of the skill outweighs alot of skill slots and is worth it by far.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

30 Oct 2008 at 19:19 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Discordway is going to be the better choice on the basis that Soul Reaping probably won't be changed ever again and the odds of PvE skills getting nerfed are just as slim. That and people who run triple necro teams do so with ease but I get people asking me why they keep dying with my setup.

12-12
SY!
TNTF!
Swift Javelin
YMLAD!
Aggressive Refrain
Focused Anger
FGJ!
Signet of Aggression

11-9-8-8
Discord
Foul Feast
SolS
enfeebling blood
Suffering
rip enchantment
recovery
weapon of Warding
Mend Body and Soul

11-11-8
Discord
Putrid Bile
SoLS
Life
Spirit Light
Soothing Memories
Weapon of Warding
Protective Was Kaolai

12-9-9
Discord
Rotting Flesh
Putrid Bile
Animate Shambling
Animate Bone Fiends
Death Nova
Aegis
Prot Spirit

With option of putting hex removal on the minion bomber. Looks solid?

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

31 Oct 2008 at 00:35 - 32

You know, something tells me that discordway might be a better choice than racway. =/

I mean, you have the same on-target damage, can take down healers and all sorts of stuff really fast, thus having an exploding minion wall and much more direct heal, you also dont worry about blocking, blind and nasty shout preventing hexes/wells as much.

And dark fury can be easily fitted on one of your discorders as someone allready mentioned doesnt need high investement.

Racway just looks nice, makes you run something different and enjoy the synergy, also is less boring.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

31 Oct 2008 at 01:40 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE View Post

Yes I know. Read again please. You have seven other, near invincible allies, that can and should both protect you and deal damage to the mobs.

Yeah near invincible allies with OOP and DF sacrificing 200+hp every 5s.

How is that good again?

And I dont even need DF to keep up my SY.

Quote:

TAB. Doesn't work for the multiple Aegis Charrs outside doomlore.

Quote: Take heavy disruption or Mirror of Disenchantment.

Quote:

I think you should reconsider your actual builds if you're having problems in PvE with 82% less damage. Ever heard of armor ignoring damages?

If you are trying to argue with me that Racway (aka Paraway) is totally invincible and can NEVER EVER fail, you need to try much harder than that. Rac himself admitted problems with the build in certain areas without major changes, so are you trying to say that you run his own build better than the author himself?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

31 Oct 2008 at 01:51 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

Doesn't work for the multiple Aegis Charrs outside doomlore.

Yes, that was one of the major tweaks that Rac suggested before too for that area.

Quote:

Ever heard of armor ignoring damages?

If you are trying to argue with me that Racway (aka Paraway) is totally invincible and can NEVER EVER fail, you need to try much harder than that. Unless your teammates who are incharge of healing are godawful, you shouldn't be dying. The only area I would agree with you are areas with heavy Twisting Jaws.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

31 Oct 2008 at 02:00 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla View Post

Take heavy disruption or Mirror of Disenchantment.

Unless your teammates who are incharge of healing are godawful, you shouldn't be dying. The only area I would agree with you are areas with heavy Twisting Jaws. You know, I am going to go with the pretty safe assumption that Rac knows Racway better than you guys considering that he created it in the first place.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=97

ALF71BE

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2008

In your fridge, stealing your pickles. for mah subway

31 Oct 2008 at 02:02 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

snip Do me a favor and stop posting until you read all of one post points.

I'm not even going to quote myself because it will be good for you to read.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008