The Alchemy Circle

I'm posting this for posterity, since it is on a wiki talk page and bound to be archived (and thus hard to find) soon, I asked Linsey about the Alchemy Circle icon that is found everywhere (on their site, on the complete collection case, etc.) and it's meaning and this was her reply:

Interesting things to note from this:
-It "predates" the Asura, which means (by Grubbs wording, anyways) that if the rumor on Lord Odran is true, means that the Asura either evolved from another species, came to Tyria from another means of transportation (possibly using one of Odran's portals on another world?), or were created from some higher power.
-If it's a map to the mists, it may be designed in some wizard writing, using symbols that common man can not understand.
-Why would Lord Odran need a map to the mists, if he already knew the way to them?
-Metaphysical in nature is something the Asura quite enjoy, their beliefs are indeed similar to alchemic beliefs in a few ways, the Ausra could have been made in some way related to something that Odran did.
-No mention of this by Linsey, but it's safe to assume that since his portal hiding magic was ruined and the greed of man overtook his portals etc, that this Alchemic Circle figure is a common symbol that most people on Tyria would understand, probably as well known as our Star of David, or the Cross.

If the alchemy circle is indeed a "Map of the Mists", we can apply the logic of the Realm of Torment to this.

Something I remember reading a long time ago was about how humans somehow cannot comprehend the layout of the Realm of Torment, and thus use the "world map" we see in the RoT:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Image...of_Torment.jpg

See where I'm getting at?

So far I got two Alchemy circles. The one from prophecies (Light colored version) and the Nightfall version

Or, more simply, is that the Asura are younger then 200 years old.
He explored the mists, he knew the way to them, he didn't know them in of itself.
Not necessarily. The common symbol known like the Staf of David of the Cross would actually be the Eye of Janthir that is seen in Divinity Coast, Temple of Balthazar in The Falls, Temple of Grenth in Lonar's Pass, the Hall of Grenth in the Underworld, and in some EN dungeons.

My question is, did Odran make this, or did Odran use this?

Right here I would like to point to my Hypothesis on the RiftWhere I stated that the Realm of Torment was split up and separated from the rest of the Rift - which contains all of the Realms of the Gods and the Hall of Heroes - in order to complete the prison-like state of the Realm of Torment. In my hypothesis, the reason why humans cannot comprehend the shape of the Realm of Torment would be because of this, and because of the madness caused to and by Abaddon.

Also, I would have to think that the Alchemy Circle is a map of the Mists, not the Rift, and doesn't map out the "realms" (whether of the gods, or of worlds), but their locations in the Mists. Which that concept can go rather well with the Nightfall version, not so much the Prophecies one though.

Something on the light map. I see the Scepter of Orr at the bottom, in the 4th to left circle on the edge.

Also, think you can point me to a bigger picture of the Nightfall one? I would think that is the most "up to date" version and would like to look at it more thoroughly.

Edit:On the light version, I can make out the names of all 6 core professions, Warrior, Monk (not talking about "Mors"), Necromancer *hardest to read - right side from Monk), Mesmer (bottom left on a line), Ranger (bottom center), and Elementalist (second hardest to read, between Warrior and Monk).

As for the second, I agree that the runes look similar, hence why I wanted a bigger picture (as I am not sure were Karuro got such a clear version). I know it's on the Nightfall box, but that's blocked on my CE version and I can't find a clear version. Although they look more like the runes/markings that are on the sails of some Kournan ships.

I wonder, anyone else get the feeling that "Mors" was a name for another world/dimension within the Mists? You got Tyria, the on the other side of that same part, you got Mors.

I need some printed out versions of these.

After looking at these again, and looking at the black version of the original that Karuro posted on GWO, I think that the original is a small part of the newer, bigger, one. Possibly the circle at the bottom center of the Nightfall version is the original one. Hard to tell with the sizes.

I've always wondered what the purpose of the Alchemy Circle was. Looking at the various boxes and products it would appear there are only two versions.

The first version (Prophecies and Factions, as shown by Karuro) has writing on it that can be mostly made out - "The World Of Tyria" (Left Side through unsure if that says Tyria) and "Warrior" (Top right).Theres also "Mors" though its tough to read it. Are there any clearer pictures of the Proph/Factions Alchemy Circle with the words clearer?

EDIT: On looking closely it appears to have all the professions listed on certain lines.

The second more detailed circle has runes that look like the ones found on teleporters though i'll have to grab a screen to compare.

Ah, I see. I took to as in "the way towards" not to as in "a map of". It could mean either really, someone else might want to ask on her talk page (getting ready to goooo).

Well it says developed by, but it's just a Tyrian "rumor".

She updated this:

Thank you for that update that she posted Dark Necrid.

Also, I noted on the old one a word outside the circle that I cannot make out, I'm tempted to say "Zero" or "Toro" or something of the like.

Anyways, I got to go to class soon, and then voting, yay. So I'll be back in about 2 hours to look at this some more. -tempted to just skip class today-

I found the alchemy symbols while googlin'. They're from the official site (Besides the Light-version, which seems to be just an invert to see things clearer. Found it in a GWO thread).
Doubt there are bigger versions atm (Aside from Arenanet HQ).

Slightly (very slightly) bigger but still not an improvement.

And here is all the writing:

"Pre-dating" the Asura could simply mean that the Circle was known to humans before they had met the Asura. It doesn't have to mean it existed before their race came into existance.

Karuro uploaded the Nightfall one onto his website so I think that link is the biggest we can get, which is a good size bigger:

http://www.anime-envoy.com/~other/gw...lchemy-big.jpg

Time for me to print these two out and look closely without hurting my eyes on the computer screen.

This was answered by linsey what it meant, look at DarkNecrid's second post (#5). It means that the concept of the Alchemy Circle was made before the concept of the Asura were.

Edit: Free Runner, the bottom is defiantly not Loro, as it would be an upside down L, therefore would end up being oroL. But I would assume that no writings are upside down as nothing we can translate is (closest is on it's side: Elementalist). The first letter of that word would have to be I, T, Z, or a Tyrian letter. I'm going to go dig through the gw.dat thread to find that alphabet. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the wordings is in Tyrian.

Really, Azazel-kun~
You should fix those broken-linking habits of yours :P

http://www.anime-envoy.com/~other/gw...lchemy-big.jpg

I copy pasted from GWO Whatever. My day is bad in terms of linking stuff. xD Also... kun? O.o I'm not japanese, and neither are you!

Edit: . . . the link put in the ... shortening -____________________________-

Edit2:
Well now I got 5 copies of the original Circle printed out, my german music playing loud, and plenty of pencils. Time to doodle and figure stuff out.

Also, for the Nightfall one, I noticed a sun-like figure and a planet-like figure on the left side.

It's a habit that sticks with you when you hang around with 'em for years :P
To get back tot he whole "Mapping thing", I was thinking that certain spots represent the pantheon their realms. However, with the classes worked in, I'm not too sure about that.

The letters are a copy + paste. For instance all the T's look the same - so the first letter isnt a T. I guessed L (which is why i placed a question mark next to it) due to the messy way the letters are laid out I doubt its Tyrian Alphebet as everything else appears normal.

Anyway after checking the runes on one of the teleporters and the runes found on the torment pillers, none match with anything found on the Nightfall Circle. The strange markings on the Realm of Torment map dont seem to compare ether but i've not finished there.

Something i was interested in was the layout of the professions in the Tyrian Circle. Warrior (the profession which uses very little magic) is the furthest away from the center with the spellcasters being closer. The Ranger one seems to be hanging in the middle. Also each profession has its own circle barring the Mesmer (there is a circle near it but the mesmer seems to be rather lonely). I would like to know what the writing directly below the Ranger one is....but its much too small.

This reminds me, I think the portal in the ice imp cave (Icy dragon sword cave) is one of lord odran's portals.

That isn't sure to be a portal actually Daisuko. Although it can be, there is nothing to support it to be other than being a "dangerous place."


I am rather sure that whatever found out with the Alchemy Circle will either support or debunk things I said in my Odran Thread and my Rift Thread. More so the later.

I got a few theories going on with this Circle, but nothing really worth putting up yet. I'll just put it all up together in a scanned image of my doodles...

The Nightfall one almost appears to me as though a sketching of temporal distortions, due to the circle near the middle and the lower right.

I somewhat agree with Leon on the distortions with the Nightfall one.

I think it is an attempt to map the Realm of Torment. The realm is currently shattered landmasses, if you look at the edges of each circle, you can see that, if resized, they can be connected with the same pattern, a little reorganizing would be needed on the left side (as what is on the outer part would go inside). I'll try to make a Paint job of what I mean (as pencil doesn't show up well on the print out of that I have).

Could also be a map of the Rift as a whole, with the broken edges being where the Realm of Torment is/should be.

Also, the Nightfall one doesn't even have a real "center" which is where the Rift would be, if it were to be a map of the Mists. And it's not so much of a "circle" with how it is now.

I am currently looking to see if any of the symbols on the Nightfall Alchemy Circle has repeating runes (i.e., runes on the left side that repeat on the right side, in the same order).

Edit: This would be a lot easier if I had some sort of reference. But I'm slowly getting things.

For instance, the symbol in the center of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle, is also seen two other places. Just above what is believed to say "The World of Tyria" (at about a 45 degree angle from how it is in the center) and at the bottom right area of the left half of the Nightfall alchemy Circle.

Through this, I have reason to believe that the Prophecies Alchemy Circle was charted with having Tyria in the center, with that symbol representing Tyria.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Edit2: Also found that symbol next to "Mors" so I'm not sure on what I said anymore.
__________________________________________________ _______________

On top of that, I believe that the four edges of the Prophecies Circle are they keys for translating the Alchemy Circle, or was intended to be. With a symbol with the shape of the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists in the fourth to the left-most circle and in the biggest triangle with a circle in it to the right of the same quarter key.

Also note that the star-like shape just above "Warrior" in the Prophecies Alchemy Circle is also in the Nightfall Circle, in the upper center of the design, there is a line of runes, the star is at the top.

Not sure if I mentioned this, but I believe that the upside down triangle on the rightmost part of the circle of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle is the Eye of Janthir.

Edit3:
Here is my most latest doodle. Maybe someone can use this for thoughts.

Something I realized. It has been noticed that the two Alchemy Circles that we have are not similar except for two symbols which are in both. No other similarity really.

But there is something we didn't think of earlier. There are in fact three Alchemy Circles, one we overlooked, that Free Runner even mentioned.

The Realm of Torment map.

It is in the same format as the other two Alchemy Circles, but is also different, as different as the other two are from each other.

I believe that this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Mists, like Linsey said. But that this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Rift (going off of my Rift theory - sorry I keep bringing this back, but it's highly relevant as I think this hypothesis might actually be proven right with this - this would make sense as I said above). And then this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Realm of Torment alone.

In other words, the name for a map of non-Tyrian lands is called an "Alchemy Circle." The first one, from Prophecies, was made by Odran, possibly all of them were, but that one for sure was. It is incomplete and has Tyria as the center, the only place he knew Tyria would fit with a new map. This map also just has worlds and realms as simple symbols. At the bottom, the five circles - one of which I thought was the Scepter of Orr - are symbols of the Gods. Five Gods (as known by Odran at the time) Five Symbols, each symbol connected to each other by smaller symbols. I'm not sure what those smaller symbols represent as they are too small at the moment.

The next one, from Nightfall, is just a map of the Rift. The symbol I believe represents Tyria (shown in the notes above) is in this map, representing where in the Rift the portal to Tyria is. Because of the Realm of Torment's state, the Rift itself is chaotic and is hard to map, but can still be changed into a full circle. I have noticed that by resizing and rearranging some of the outer part of the circle, it can be returned to an almost full circle. I have yet to get to this, but I plan to.

The Realm of Torment one is one circle with multiple circles near it. This could have been done by the God's way of locking Abaddon up, by separating the realm itself, as I theorized in my aforementioned thread. There is no symbol to Tyria because Odran never made a portal directly to the Realm of Torment, therefore never needed a symbol.

If you notice the outer part of the big circle (which would contain the Vortex, Gate of Torment, Abaddon's Gate, and the Domain of Anguish - the three areas that were not separated from the original realm along with the newly created portal) it is designed similarly to two parts of the circle of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle.

Theres no portal in the Lyssa Cave. The two objects that hum are overturned beacons.

We didnt forget it. Karuro first made a direct mention of it in his first post. But we cant understand the Realm of Torment one without first understanding the Tyrian and Elonian one (i'm gonna nickname the Prophecies/Factions one the "Tyrian Circle" and the Nightfall one "Elonian Circle" for better refference, before people start to get mixed up with the Eternal Alchemy)

On a side note, the "light" version is missing alot of lines. There is a huge Triangle missing (can partly be seen) aswell as a couple of lines and circles. I'm gonna attempt to hunt down the First version.

EDIT: Okay heres the actual version:


This is the version found on the boxes and site. Its missing the bottom half but we already know whats there, from the light version. The difference between this one and the light one is that this one has two circles - one within the other. The outer one is missing some of its profession markers aswell. From this i believe the Light Version is the circle within the larger circle.

And after looking at the Elonian one further i can say the runes do not repeat. Some do look he same but each one appears to be unique.

A little off and on topic - while searching i found myself on the Korean Guild Wars site......they have a small animated golden Alchemy Circle (Prophecies) with glittering lights moving along the lines Its put the Circles found on the Euro and American sites to shame.

The light version is just an invert of the original black version. Got a "whole" copy here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...023_551726.jpg

Taking a closer look at the cut-off version..
It looks like the circle has been copied and enlarged, so its a circle in a circle.

So on that note, maybe we're supposed to see that one as looking down a tube.
Or to be more precise, see it as "Layers" on top of each other.

I can't agree with the tube or layers idea, because if it were layers or a tube, one end would be different then another, not the exact same.

I think the copy/paste affect was done to make it look more complicated then it actually is, to confuse people in order to prevent people from solving out how to use the map, and the real map being the white version. The fact that the black version isn't in the gw.dat but the white version is, is further support for that, in my opinion.

Edit: Something I noticed on the white version:

"Mors" and "Toro" (still think that's what it says) are at opposing sides of the circle, similar to the two bigger symbols within the circle (the one with the bubble and the one that looks like the Eye of Janthir). Along with that, "The World of Tyria" looks a bit more like "The World of Toro" to me (the last word seems to have 4 letters, and none goes lower then the rest like a y would). "The World of Toro" and "Mors" are on opposing sides of the symbol (that is in that edge piece) that is also in the center of the circle, just like the two symbol I mentioned.

Because of this, I believe that those two symbols represent worlds/dimensions called "Mors" and "Toro," while the center represents Tyria. One of which, whenever looks like the Eye of Janthir, could be the Mursaat homeworld (IF, and that's a big if, Quintus' hypothesis on the Mursaat being inter-dimensional is correct, which I still doubt).

I still do not know what the smaller circles are, however, I believe that they may be "smaller" worlds - which is why their size is smaller, they represent smaller things. I believe that many of the smaller symbols are repeated along the edges, but I cannot tell with them being small as they are, my print outs being cut off at the edges of Mors/Toro (which prevent me from having a good close look without hurting my eyes), and the quality being poor.

Also, since I apperently did not mention this before, the 5 big symbols at the bottom of the bottom right edge, I believe are symbols for the Five True Gods, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, Dwayna, and Grenth (in that order from left to right). I say this because the Dwayna one, which I previously thought to be the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists, looks like the Dwayna statue, but with arms stretching upwards. The one I consider Balthazar, I only base on the symbol looking like a W, which could stand for War (God of Fire and War). The center one I believe to be Lyssa because that symbol, for some reason, makes me think of a symbol for "chaos" and Lyssa is commonly connected to chaos as mesmer spells cause Chaos damage. The one I consider Melandru looks like the symbol that the word "Ranger" is next to in the Circle. Which left the last for Grenth.

Also note that the upper most symbol in that edge looks a lot like the symbol for Lyssa, with just two circles as an addition. Keep those circles and remove the part that would be Lyssa, and you get the symbol of the lower most symbol within the Circle, which is the end of the line with Mesmer on it. Another possible support for the middle of the 5 bigger symbols being Lyssa.

The smaller symbols between the "five god symbols" are too poor of quality to really tell, however the one between "Dwayna" and "Grenth" is repeated on the bottom left edge, near the bottom of that edge.

I also thought it said The World of Toro at first but upon looking closer the second letter looks too much like a Y. However you are correct - there does appear to be only four letters. I'm not sure if the i is just too close to the a or r, or they screwed up on the naming.

As for the .dat thing i wouldnt say that really counts. None of the Alchemy Circles appear ingame and almost everything appears to be unique to the Circle (the runes, symbols) so making it even harder to figure out isnt even nescessary.

I've not looked at the symbols properly yet (only compared them) but it would be interesting if they were symbols for the gods. Though i still feel i've seen those runes somewere...i'm wondering if they are perhaps the glyphs from certain spells.

Interesting fact about the .dat: There are tons of things that are on packages and the boxes in the .dat file, such as a picture of Nika and the Ritualist that are on the Factions box.

I too feel like I've seen them somewhere. I have looked at some of the animation textures of spells, one does seem like the symbol in the "bubble" on the Tyrian Alchemy Circle, but they are not the same. As for the Nightfall Alchemy Circle Runes, I have yet to see anything similar, but do seem familiar.

Thought popped in. Aren't those from the online store?

If you mean the things in the .dat not in game. Not all are, some are, but not all. I think the Alchemy Circle might be though. I'll go check.

Edit: Yes, the Alchemy Circle is in the online store, the background, two of the white versions, spinning around. That's on the main page and Prophecies page, on the Nightfall Campaign page is the Nightfall Alchemy Circle. On the EN page it's something else, doesn't look familiar. On the "Upgrades" page, there are swirls with tiny writing next to the lines.

is it just me or does that really look like a 3d image of some kind that was then flattened.

Something I recently noticed:

The Alchemy Circle is on the backgrounds of some of the backgrounds on the GW website. The backgrounds that I found are:

Grenth (Prophecies Circle - overlapped 3 times)
Mad King Thorn (Nightfall Circle - hard to see if overlapped)
Eve (Prophecies Circle - hard to see if overlapped)
Razah (Nightfall Circle - overlapped multiple times, hard to tell how many times)

I find it funny how I just overlooked those before. Didn't have even a second thought to it.

Long shot but maybe something can be found with how they overlap the circles in these.

Yes the backgrounds of a lot of GW related things have the Alchemy Circle somewere on them. After looking ingame i realised that the Eye of the North books (Master Dungeon Guide and Heroes Handbook) also use the circles as backgrounds.

Heres another place one of three circles appear in:



The circle at the top right is the Realm of Torment circle.

woah this is quite an interesting read, makes me look forwqrd to the lore books even more rreally. Maybe the tyiran version was an older version and the new one has sections to do with the newer professions. Is it anything significant this circle into how the the different professions get their powers, are the rune symbols similar to the ones on actual rune items in the game.

Interesting that there is a Circle in Concept Art. And Realm of Torment for Grenth. Hmm.

I wonder if Jeff Grubb and other Lore-Making staff of ANet were getting annoyed that we did nothing with these circles and decided to put them everywhere in front of our faces.

Very interesting indeed. The new one has no writings that we can translate. I doubt it is just an "updated" version, because it is missing a majority of the things that the Prophecies one has. Also, as stated, the runes are not like any we have seen so far elsewhere - although they do seem familiar.

if i may be so bold 2 put forward some thing to great lore minds like yours
with refrence to "Loro""toro" and if a lil bit distorted "zoro"
i do a small amount of painting so when i read the word i read it Ioro notic the flicks maby it may have been done with a brush or sumthing but that is only my 2 cents as well as the triangle on the lower right side of the circle it also to me atlest has the symbol of the Scepter of Orr maby its origin? since it seems 2 be pointing to a specific location

Check this out, one of the symbols from the black and white Alchemy Circle in the Doppleganger's chamber.



Edit: There are far too many circles on that Alchemy circle, I mistook the above symbol for being one of the many seen.

So even Leon can make mistakes huh?

Also, @ sabriel warmonger, I believe I stated the Scepter of Orr thing on the first page, and then later stated that it looks to me more likely to be a symbol for Dwayna, with the other symbols nearby there other symbols of the 4 other gods (as, at that time the 6th god was unknown).

And "Toro" could be very well "Ioro," it is hard to tell with the poor quality and fading. I don't think it can be Loro though. (Would be funny if it turned out to be "Lore") Also, the last word in "The World of _____" looks to start with a T and looks like Toro, which is why we call the bottom word "Toro" and not "Ioro."

Edit:
I took the liberty of removing the symbols of the Alchemy Circle to see if something can be made of just the lines - i.e., disecting the Alchemy Circle. I don't see anything special, but perhaps someone else can. This way, it looks more like a "real" alchemy circle.

Might help a bit..

A few months ago I looked around for Alchemy related stuff. The wiki had some nice interesting information but now to what i actually want to post.

This is an alchemical glyph of the creation of the Philosopher's Stone (FMA and HP fans, don't scream):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Squaredcircle.svg

In short: Triangles and circles are popular.
But maybe someone can discover something with the help of the alchemy symbols on the main Alchemy article if they have the time.
Picture of symbols: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mbols-1775.jpg

(Posting on two forums is quite inconvenient at times..)

Copy and paste from GWO:

At a fast glance at that list of symbols, looks like the following are in our Prophecies circle:
1. lemon (14) - either all 4 spirals, or just the one coming from the Eye of Janthir-like symbol. (The spiral from the "shining triangle" looks like a bloated form of this)
2. Water (34) - the symbol around the center symbol (which I believe to represent Tyria). Caught my eye immediately.
3. Matter of Heat (37) - the faded large triangle (Could also be "Vital Air (35) by using a line from the "Water" triangle)
4. silver (46) - the fade crecent-symbol near "Ranger"


Possibles: (mostly those undiscerning symbols throughout the map)
1. arsenic (9/54) - the double circle symbol next to what I called the Rift.
2. sugar (11)
3. sorrel(sp?) (13) - symbol at top tip of faded cresent
4. Aether (41) and efsential(sp?) oil (42) might be there in the placement of those tiny circles.

All I can find in similarities (not looking at possible "combined" symbols).

Note the rectangular designs above the door. Compare to the figures used to construct approximations of the Golden Spiral.

Recently got into making GW Videos, so I downloaded the videos on the GW site for possible use. And I found this:

(Video is Final Factions Trailer - High - top video on the page)

What was unknown to be World of Toro or World of Tyria, seems to be Tyria as there is clearly a y with this picture.

Also, note the symbol by "Mesmer" - it's the symbol for the male gender. With the list provided by Karuro on GWO, this could mean iron (#48) or #59 (can't read what it says, siderite?).

Another thing, there is a symbol, that at least I didn't see before, above "Elementalist" which looks similar to the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists or perhaps one of the symbols for #30 or #44-59.

Lastly, one of the symbols above the large symbol above "Monk" is more clear as well and looks like #52 (Bismuth)


Thought I'd share this for further thought.

nice thread azazel

nice find on the fibonacci spiral as it seems to fit.

Mors- in roman mythology is death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mors_(mythology)


also azazel i believe you to be correct in the five gods of tyria theory and the smaller circles seem to be the corresponding classes (ie Grenth-Necromancer)

this thread is a welcome sight to the rest of the guru threads about this and that.

Not my thread, DarkNecrid brought it up :x I've just seem to have been the most interested in this (things related to the Mists, Rift, and Spirits always makes me highly interested).

Also, made some corrections in your post (link and five gods).

While the profession thing does go with, I think it would be the similarities between the gods, as those smaller symbols link the gods together. I need a bigger picture though.