8800, 9600 or 9800?

I'm upgrading my graphic card, currently GeForce 8500 GT (;d). I'm thinking about one of the above cards, but I don't know which one is the best, that is - not too expensive, but the most powerful of them all.

Note - 8500 GT costs $75 here, just to let ya know. The cheapest 8800 I've found was something around $110-120 and 9800 was a bit over $140.

Where is "here", and how much does the 4850 cost at your location?

Also you may need to be more specific regarding the model of the 8800 and 9800. I'm guessing its a 8800GT and 9800GT?

Yeah, 8800GT and 9800GT. GTXs cost a bit much.

"here" is craptastic Poland where everything costs twice as much as in, for instance, Spain or London.

The cheapest 4850 costs... $190. So at least $50 then the cheapest 9800GT.
The most expensive 4850 costs $310, I might as well buy the most expensive 9800 GTX+ for $330. At least with GeForce I know what I'm standing on.

All cards 512MB of course, I don't want to waste cash on 1GB's

Well the 9800GT is essentially a rebranded 8800GT. The only differences being:
-Tri SLI support (not really relevent to your situation)
-Some are 55nm rather than 65nm. Therefore less power consumption, better overclocking.

Probably better to get the cheapest 8800GT at around $110 or $120 than spend $30 bucks to buy a rebranded card.

Only other option is 4830. Performance is about the same as a 9800GT/8800GT, maybe a little better.

Although I'm guessing the 4830 will be more than both the 8800GT and 9800GT in Poland. If this is the case, just get a 8800GT.

Thanks. Although it's strange what you are saying - 9800's are much cheaper than 8800's here.

The cheapest 9800 I could find is 420ZŁ (1 ZŁ = 0,3 USD, or 1 USD ~ 3 ZŁ) and the cheapest 8800 is 470 ZŁ. That's not a big difference in USD, but in Poland it's... something. The only 8800's cheaper than 9800 are 8800GS, but they are a bit weaker, I think.

9800GT from either EVGA or XFX (EVGA if you want the 90 day step-up option, XFX if you want a double lifetime warranty). Can't really go wrong with either of those manufacturers.

I haven't checked, but I doubt they have any of those features in Poland. If they don't, just get the cheapest regardless of brand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Genius get the cheapest regardless of brand.

That tends to be a similar to saying "get the one that will break first". Sure, one could buy a card from a random brand because it's less expensive than a card from a quality brand, but it's a bit of a risky move. If you can afford to have a card break or be defective and need RMA'd or replaced, then it isn't an issue, but for somebody that is concerned about cost, purchasing from a quality manufacturer tends to be a better long term decision. For example, Fenix got an 8800 card from MSI a little while back, and had to RMA it the other day. If he had gotten it from EVGA or XFX (both produce high quality cards, and on top of that offer excellent extras like the 90 day step-up program and the double lifetime warranty, respectively), chances are that he wouldn't be having that problem (and if he sees this, HAHAHA FENIX I TOLD YOU SO, PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT, SCRUB).

So, even if the extras aren't offered in Poland, Abedeus is better off spending a bit extra to get a card from a quality manufacturer (whether it be an 8800 or a 9800, though I still recommend the 9800) as opposed to saving a handful of bucks and risking needing to go without a card or buy a new one in the future.

all nvidia chips, regardless of manufacturer, follow nvidia's specifications and use more or less the same parts. there is actually VERY little quality differences between them. any manufacturer that tries to cut corners usually gets cut from nvidia's list very quickly.

Make up your mind - are they cheaper or not!

Get which ever one is cheaper - from a good brand.

I have a 9600GT (the XFX one, it comes overclocked) and I play every single game maxed, including Crysis, for example. It's the first time I feel happy with a graphic card. I was able to buy a 9800GT for the same price and I chose the 9600GT because of good reviews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz there is actually VERY little quality differences between them.

Then what is the explanation for cards from some manufacturers needing repaired or replaced more often that cards from others? Surely, if they are all so close to the same, then these sorts of problems should not exist.

Clearly, there is a problem with more cards from some manufacturers than from others. But if the problem does not lie in the quality of the manufacturing, then what is the problem?

statistical probability. if a good manufacturer has a 0.10% failure rate, and an average manufacturer has a 0.20% failure rate, you'll find twice as much reports of the average manufacturer's cards failing. this is will make it seem as if the average manufacturer is a lot worse if large volumes of cards are involved.

however in a card by card basis, the chance of getting a dud card from either manufacturer is almost the same. if the OP gets a dud card, he can easily send it back for a replacement. the rule of thumb for electronics applies here also: if the component does not fail within the first few days of operation, then it's good and will last a fairly long time.

9800 gtx its worth it ,i have a 8800gt bought last year and it costed me more than what the 9800 gtx costs right now,anyway either 8800 gt,gtx or 9800 gtx,id go for the later,and hehe Faer is right Evga and XfX all the way hehe

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz however in a card by card basis, the chance of getting a dud card from either manufacturer is almost the same.

Almost. So quality manufacturers are still better. Which brings me back to the question I posed: if it's not the manufacturer, then what is the problem, if it occurs on a manufacturer to manufacturer basis? .10% to .20%, something is still happening, regardless of the standards of NVIDIA.

But what is the something?

Apparently, I didn't notice the cheaper 8800's were out of stock. And today after 11am they removed them from the list of products ;p Probably that's why they were out of them - they were cheap.

Guess I'll go with the 9800 for 430zł, then sell my old 8500GT for 150zł (yeah, something about $50 - bad cards are cheap here, so non-technical people like my father buy them). Thanks for the tips everyone. I wish USD was still 2zł, then I could buy a nvidia card for $170 and save almost a hundred zloty.

well, if you can justify paying a small premium for that 0.10% difference, by all means go ahead. is ~$15 worth the infinitely smaller chance of getting a dud? that's for you to decide.

btw, that "something" is called margin of error. sure, a quality manufacturer might have better manufacturing process. the real question is, does it actually matter that much? for the most part, no.

lastly, remember we're not exactly comparing cards of different brands. the comparison between nvidia card board partners is similar to that of a toyota manufactured in ontario to, say, one manufactured in michigan. they are both toyotas, and will be nearly identical in almost every way. ditto with nvidia graphic cards.

So more cards from some manufacturers (such as MSI) get RMA'd than cards from other manufacturers (such as XFX), but that doesn't matter because of how small a chance it is for your own card to go bad regardless of who made it. So even though more cards from some manufacturers go bad than from other manufacturers, you should still buy from the manufacturer that more bad cards come from if it is cheaper than the card that comes from a manufacturer that makes less bad cards. Because the chance of getting a bad card is slim, so it isn't worth an extra $15-$30 to go for quality assurance.

Gotcha. Guess I'll start buying from MSI then. ¯\(º_o)/¯

I think what moriz is trying to say is that the difference between manufactures is so small that is it statistically negligable. How do you know a certain manufacturer has a .1% higher chance of failure? Have you tested 100k cards from everyone to check? If you know someone who has please tell us. But even then it won't matter, because with each new model the reliability between manufacturers could flip flop every time (and often does). Unless you have direct access to the manufactures data on the % of cards that were defective (and I know you don't, because giving out numbers on such a deficiency would be industry suicide) all you have to go on is superstition. If you DO get a bad card its probably going to fail within a week if it works at all, and in that case you are entitled to a refund/replacement regardless of what the warranty may be. At least, that is true in the US, whether is it the same in Poland is something I am don't know, but I would expect that there is some equivalent consumer protection laws there.

not to mention, the $15-30 difference actually does not go to quality assurance (all nvidia board partners are legally required to do that). it actually goes to the monstrously huge lifetime warranty. that's basically all you are buying by going for evga and xfx.

Yeah, In my opinion you buy the customer support and warranty, some companies have really crappy service, others don't. I swear by EVGA personally.

The 8800GT and 9800GT will be stronger than the 9600GT in any case. I'd say either of those two.

Do you have any actual evidence to support the claim cheaper manufacturers' cards break more often? I know on some PC hardware/PC gaming forums I am a member of the users often/always recommend the cheaper brands, such as HIS (for ATI), Galaxy (for Nvidia) etc. (Curiously enough users often say to stay away from MSI). I don't see people coming back and complaining their card broke. I know this is only ancedotal evidence, but the burden of proof lies with you to support the claim cheaper cards break more often.

The best manufacterers in the United States are not necessarily the best in other places, not because of differences in the cards themselves but because the customer support, warranty and other features are not offered and therefore the product does not justify the cost. I would prefer a manufacturer I know has a RMA lab/office in my own country than send the product overseas for a RMA.

Sure, if the 9800GT is availible as an ASUS, BFG, EVGA, XFX, Zotac etc for the same cost as the cheaper one, buy the better brand. But if its a USD$30 and up margin, its not worth it.

One last note: often when browsing the cards on Newegg, the cards from EVGA and BFG are the cheapest or near the cheapest. However, in Australia (and probably other places) the EVGA and BFG cards are at least AU$50 more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Genius Do you have any actual evidence to support the claim cheaper manufacturers' cards break more often?

Only as much as anyone else has offered in defense of the lesser manufacturers, i.e.:

Quote:

[20:59:07]<@Fenix> i got MSI for 1 reason [20:59:13] <@Fenix> because they had sold out of the card i wanted [20:59:18] <@Fenix> and they offered me the MSI [20:59:21] <@Fenix> and i was like [20:59:24] <@Fenix> uhhh ummm uhhhh [20:59:27] <@Fenix> uhhhh ok fine [20:59:38] <@Fenix> it never worked. [21:00:21] <@Fenix> i mean hell, the 2nd hand XFX that i bought [21:00:28] <@Fenix> WORKED LONGER THAN THE MSI

For as long as I've been putting computers together, it's been the same story from everybody (except, apparently, Guru members, lolololol). Products from lesser manufacturers fail more than the ones from the bigger guys. Even my own personal experience has been along these lines. Very rarely have I heard of cards from the bigger guys (such as EVGA and XFX) having such problems. Certainly, if all manufacturers were equal, then all would be talked about equally?

But I guess they aren't really equal. "Burden of proof" is just as irrelevant here as it is in arguing Darwinism. It doesn't matter how we got here, what matters is that we are here, and things are the way they are. Therefore, I "support" my claim with the fact that more people complain about the lesser manufacturers than the bigger ones (disprove that why don't you), and refuse to go digging up a statistical analysis on the matter (if such a thing even exists). I figure if all ArenaNet has to say to convince you guys that GW2 is coming is "we're working on it", this variety of evidence should do just fine.

Now I gotta go guys, gonna order some cards from MSI, a mobo from JetWay, and PSU from A-Top. (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞

i'm going to laugh so hard if those components actually work pretty well, thereby disproving your own argument against them.

*grins* As long as the video card in question has at least a couple year warranty in your particular country I say go for it. As said a couple times above, if it fails it will most likely be very soon, and if not it will probably last quite awhile. (unless you overclock like a banshee or your house floods or something like that lol)

It does depend a lot upon the quantity of cards sold. I don't know which of these fabs is bigger than the other, but, for example:
If ABC sells 10,000 cards and 500 are bad, you have 500 people complaining about them. If XYZ sells 1,000 cards and 100 of them are bad, you only have 100 people complaining.
You are basically suggesting that XYZ makes better cards than ABC because they have fewer complaints/duds, but in fact, your chances of getting a bad card from ABC are only 500/10,000 (5%) whereas XYZ is 100/1,000 (10%)

Now, I realize that there are many other factors involved, but you must see that basing the judgment of quality on only the absolute number of failures is not accurate.

Personally, however, I do believe there are quality differences between manufacturers. I don't know how deeply nVidia gets involved in it, but there are differences in the overall build quality, and the quality of parts between manufacturers - particularly when it comes to the size and quality of cooling components.

On the other hand, go talk to some people about pickup trucks. You'll find one guy who swears than Chevys are junk and will tell you about all the people who had lemons. The next guy will tell you that Fords are junk and tell you about all his friends who..blah, blah, etc., etc.

Basically, until you can get actual statistics on the quantity of an item that MSI makes vs the quantity that XFX makes (of the same product), versus the failure rates of both, you shouldn't make such bold statements about MSI. It's also worth noting that sometimes, the failures that happen to some companies products are due to quality issues with the parts (capacitors, resistors, fans, etc.) they got from their suppliers.

Oh, and as another chuckle - I was reading the 2007 Consumer reports Annual Auto Issue the other day. It's the issue where they list which cars have good and bad repair records. Not surprisingly, Toyotas were some of the best, and KIA were some of the worst. But, several models of Mercedes-Benz were also among the worst. Ya just never know, but if Faer ever gets a bad XFX card, we'll probably never hear about it from him.

So.... I wanted to correct a little misconception...

While some of the 9 series GPUs are indeed the same chip as their 8 series counterparts, the 9800GT isn't one of those.

The 9800GT features improved memory latencies, improved pMOS logic, improved X-scaling technology, a refined core design, improved clock speeds and voltage parameters, and a few other niche technologies that make it an all around more powerful card and a better choice. The 9800GT is a great card.

Regarding manufacturers... there are those manufacturers that order low bin parts from us, and that insist on cutting corners. I am not at liberty to mention names here, but these companies cannot be reprimanded in any fashion unless their actions fall above a 2% failure rate in a single category. This applies to most electronics, not just nVidia GPUs.

Also, when looking at different vendors for GPUs, it is important to note the companies track record on customer service, and their perks. From this standpoint, it is evident... eVGA is the best company on the market when it comes to perks. Their "Step Up" program is a great system, and needless to say, should be taken advantage of if possible. Customer support is great with many of the companies, including but far from limited to eVGA, XFX, BFG, Zotac, and ASUS.

Oh, forgot one thing.

CPU's usually require a Motherboard upgrade when you upgrade them, right? For example, jumping from Athlon 3000+ to Intel Core 2 required a small change.

Do I need to change anything in order to install that 9800GT? Memory or anything else?

Motherboards and processors are bound by the socket and BUS design.

GPUs are bound by BUS design. In this case, provided you have a PCI Express 16x motherboard, you can get any PCI Express 16x enabled card. It will work, no issues. You need to make sure your powersupply has enough amperage on its +12v rail and enough wattage to handle the new card though.

Thanks. And yeah, my motherboard does support PCI Express 16x, as my GeForce 8500GT uses it, too. Also, I changed my power supply to a better one, along with new rig.

Most of the newer video cards say on the box or in their manual that a 400watt PSU is required.... generally speaking a 400watt PSU is sufficient for a basic build, but it won't give you all that much room for expansion down the road. Of course it all depends on what you put inside your machine...

nah, both AMD and nVIDIA will overstate the PSU requirement, simply because the vast majority of their buyers will try to run them on really cheap (and bad) PSUs that cannot achieve anywhere near their rated wattage. by overstating the power requirement, they save themselves and their buyers a lot of trouble.

just as a comparison, my current rig, with overclocking and everything, draws a grand total of 270W. that's with a HD 4850 btw. a good quality PSU, even if it is a measly 400W, can outperform a bad PSU rated at 650W.

Whatever you decide on don't neglect to look at the warrantee.

I went with EVGA 2 years ago with 2 8800GTXs ( took one out cause it seemed silly to be putting time on it when it wasn't needed) Anyway.. I had a problem with a liquid cooler that took out the card. EVGA replaced it knowing what had happened! I'd gladly pay a premium for that warratee again...think pny also has something like that

It depends upon how "large" an upgrade you want to make. You can usually only upgrade CPUs in the same "family" (Athlon, Core 2, etc.) without changing motherboards. For example, you could upgrade your Athlon 3000+ to an Athlon 5000+ without changing motherboards (usually - it might require a BIOS upgrade as well and you would have to check the socket type).
Going from one brand (AMD) to a different brand (Intel) always requires a change in motherboard these days, as the sockets are always different.
Even within the same brand - for example, going from an Intel Core 2 to a Core i7 - requires a new motherboard.

Possibly a larger power supply, or an additional case fan. That's about all.