This failure of a thread got me to thinking about the pros and cons of gimmicks vs. balanced groups.
Generally with balanced groups, there is room for any profession. If your main is a mesmer you can run something. If your main is a Rit, you can run something. Some professions are a must-have, i.e. monks, but even then you can still run an ether renewal prot/orders ele, hex removal/orders necro, or resto rit to cover some of the monk's duties. Generally, balanced takes a little longer than most gimicks. In some cases, it's not much longer at all, 10-15 minutes. In other cases, depending on the experience of the players in either group, it can take much longer.
Generally with gimmicks, you need to be able to run a select few professions. Ele, necro, monk, mesmer, sin. If your main is a warrior, there's almost no way you will fit into a cry-way group in order to finish DoA and get the statue for your HoM. If you don't have an active guild or friends list, you're really up shit creek. If you can run a cry-way profession, the current meta gimmick, you will be able to join pugs for most any elite area and reap all the rewards, monetary and otherwise, that go along with elite areas.
I have run ursan and cry-way and tank-n-spank (old school) and i have run balanced and in my opinion, I prefer the balanced group that has space for nearly everyone, mainly because I have a lot of characters and it's fun to switch it up every now and then. True, most areas have builds that are more effective for that area and an ele may not be the first choice to take, but we can make it work.
I don't mean this thread to be a "MY WAY IS BETTER THAN YOUR WAY!!!" flame war. i'm actually curious. which do you, individually, prefer? the quick, "get in, get off, get out" method of whatever the current gimmick is? or the more team oriented, "if something goes a little haywire, hopefully we can adapt" method? and why do you prefer that way?
"Balanced" Way vs. "Gimmick" Way
joshuarodger
Lyynyyrd
Balanced builds involve balancing your party/skills to suit the environment. They are the best build for any given zone.
ALF71BE
Balanced (moar liek Physical amirite?) is boring for the bitches (err, casters).
Cryway is also boring, but for everyone.
So yeah, I don't care, because my ranger is often sub-par for such situations.
Otherwise, :3 warriors.
Cryway is also boring, but for everyone.
So yeah, I don't care, because my ranger is often sub-par for such situations.
Otherwise, :3 warriors.
I MP I
Well as you should know by now, I prefer the quick, get in, get off, get out method. Oooh yea! All about the rush baby! Balanced builds can also be fast as long as everyone functions as a team and knows what they're doing. I've been in pug groups where people actually failed hard which in turn took forever to complete stuff with cryway. Proof that gimmicks aren't necessarily faster.
Shayne Hawke
PuGs can't balance, so of course they'll run FotM. In fact, if I had to PuG, FotM builds are the only things I'd want to touch.
And that's why I never do elite areas.
And that's why I never do elite areas.
Arkantos
I prefer balanced.
1) All of my professions are welcome
2) All of my friends/guildies are welcome
3) I can run whatever the hell I want
4) Successfully running a balanced build takes more skill than running a gimmick build
1) All of my professions are welcome
2) All of my friends/guildies are welcome
3) I can run whatever the hell I want
4) Successfully running a balanced build takes more skill than running a gimmick build
-Lotus-
balanced build are better and faster. unfortunately people are to stupid to understand how to play them, so they use tanks, or cryway, or ursan.
snaek
randomway ftw
Jaran Cell
Pug Gimmic > Pug Balanced
Guild Balanced > Pug Gimmic
Guild Balanced > Pug Gimmic
Luminarus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaran Cell
Pug Gimmic > Pug Balanced
Guild Balanced > Pug Gimmic I think you also forgot to mention that Guild Balanced > Guild Gimmic as well.
Guild Balanced > Pug Gimmic I think you also forgot to mention that Guild Balanced > Guild Gimmic as well.
Katari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
I prefer balanced.
1) All of my professions are welcome
2) All of my friends/guildies are welcome
3) I can run whatever the hell I want
4) Successfully running a balanced build takes more skill than running a gimmick build 5) If something goes wrong, a balanced build can easily recover.
1) All of my professions are welcome
2) All of my friends/guildies are welcome
3) I can run whatever the hell I want
4) Successfully running a balanced build takes more skill than running a gimmick build 5) If something goes wrong, a balanced build can easily recover.
Tyla
I prefer balanced because it doesn't mostly collapse at the death of your tank and the profession availability is practically always complete for any profession. It also helps you get better at the game, whereas if you're nuking what good's that going to do outside of Tank'N'Spank?
upier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd
Balanced builds involve balancing your party/skills to suit the environment. They are the best build for any given zone.
I thought that the point of balanced was in running a build that is prepared to take down pretty much anything thrown at it. This means that the guys here can not be taken down by surprise appearances.
Compared to a gimmick where the point is to exploit certain circumstances - but at the same time be completely and utterly easily countered?
Compared to a gimmick where the point is to exploit certain circumstances - but at the same time be completely and utterly easily countered?
the Puppeteer
as long as there is no pve skill abuse...
MirkoTeran
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Puppeteer
As to what I play: I played balanced and gimciks... it all depends on my mood. If I had to choose a single one it would be balanced for 2 reasons:
- I find it fun (its a game after all...)
- I prefer builds (and not just in GW) where you don't win simply by pressing 3 keys a fast as you can.
Erys Vasburg
I find the term "Balanced Way" offensive. The "way" gets attached to things a lot these days, but it started with IWAY (which makes perfectly good sense considering the skill name). But IWAY was a gimmick. A strong gimmick, a brave gimmick at times... But still a gimmick. Ergo tacking "way" to the end of anything is essentially implying that it is a gimmick by the nature of the term, and balanced builds most certainly are not gimmicks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Puppeteer
as long as there is no pve skill abuse...
Stick around for a few hours, I'm going to make a thread around here later that focuses precisely on that very issue. Sort of like Faer's, except less full of bait for people to shout "my PvE skill mashing build is better than yours". 
fenix
I agree with Erys, there's nothing in any of the balanced builds, or even the current gimmicks that involve "Will Avenge You", so why add 'way' at the end?
Avarre
Gimmicks rely on a single overpowered mechanic and minmax it to get the most one-dimensional effect. It produces a greater effect for minimum requirement of skill, and is typically shown by high number of a single class/skill in a team lineup.
Anyone who suggests that because they are successful running a gimmick, they are a good player, is not only wrong, but idiotic. Abusing a mechanic does not make you a good player. Reading that thread about how a certain guild was 'good' for being fast with Cry reminded me of, well, any gimmick spike GvG guild that talked tough because they were high on the ladder.
Protip: Every one of them got trampled when it came to tournament play.
I think I'll just start warning for those kinds of posts in the future. I have to maintain some standard of quality, after all. Keep your pathetic guild drama out.
Anyone who suggests that because they are successful running a gimmick, they are a good player, is not only wrong, but idiotic. Abusing a mechanic does not make you a good player. Reading that thread about how a certain guild was 'good' for being fast with Cry reminded me of, well, any gimmick spike GvG guild that talked tough because they were high on the ladder.
Protip: Every one of them got trampled when it came to tournament play.
I think I'll just start warning for those kinds of posts in the future. I have to maintain some standard of quality, after all. Keep your pathetic guild drama out.
zwei2stein
Gimmick - if you don't care about gameplay or having fun and just want XYZ asap.
Balance - if you play to have fun and getting XYZ at end is just bonus.
Balance - if you play to have fun and getting XYZ at end is just bonus.
RTSFirebat
Why do people add the word "way" after everything...? the title of this thread gives me a giggle. Still to keep on topic people should play whatever works best and still is enjoyable.
zwei2stein
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
Why do people add the word "way" after everything...? the title of this thread gives me a giggle. Still to keep on topic people should play whatever works best and still is enjoyable.
Because it is way of doing something.
Because -way simply became suffix denoting that word describes teambuild.
Because -way simply became suffix denoting that word describes teambuild.
Avarre
Abedeus
What someone already noticed, balanced teams in case of OMGWEAREGETTINGPWND CAN recover. Either with a concentration of SY+Aegis+TNTF and RUN AWAY WHILE MELEES AGGRO FOES or just one person with a hard rez like Rebirth running away and rezzing the team.
Gimmicks die when their tank dies.
Gimmicks die when their tank dies.
-Lotus-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
Why do people add the word "way" after everything...?
because IWAY was the first recognizable team build. addind -way to the end of something explains that it is a team build. It's a tradition, no one is saying that balanced groups are a gimmick.
gimmicks are any set team build.
gimmicks are any set team build.
Killed u man
Balanced is abusing MANY different overpowered aspects of the game, and then bragging to other people you can play "balanced".
Gimmick is abusing one, or few, different overpowered aspects of the game, often to a higher succes than balanced, and then usually not care about e-honor.
In PvE: face it, a gimmick build will ALWAYS be better than a balanced build.
E.G.: In a certain area (Urgoz, UW, Fow, etc), it's ALWAYS THE SAME ROUTINE. In other words: Why run a balanced build, than can adjust to MANY situations, but is only mildly good in everyone of those, when you can run a specifiek counter, aka farming, build for that area?
Ursanway was lame, but there was no denying it, it was THE BETTER BUILD in pretty much every top PvE location. Yes, Ursan was overpowered as fcuk, and required no skill, but that doesn't change the fact that it WAS the better build.
The same way now a Barrage/Pet, or a SF farm, will do faster in, let's say Urgoz, a balanced will always be "slower", concidering they have more utility, and "useless" skills for situation that will never happen in that given area.
Regardless of fun, I play Monk, so I don't care what group the "damage dealers" form. I do find it sad for the Paragons, and other "left-out" imba farming professions that they simply don't have a chance in "pugging" in these elite areas.
Nonetheless, as I Monk, I prefer to "farm" Urgoz in 1 hours, than "balance" it in 3...
Gimmick is abusing one, or few, different overpowered aspects of the game, often to a higher succes than balanced, and then usually not care about e-honor.
In PvE: face it, a gimmick build will ALWAYS be better than a balanced build.
E.G.: In a certain area (Urgoz, UW, Fow, etc), it's ALWAYS THE SAME ROUTINE. In other words: Why run a balanced build, than can adjust to MANY situations, but is only mildly good in everyone of those, when you can run a specifiek counter, aka farming, build for that area?
Ursanway was lame, but there was no denying it, it was THE BETTER BUILD in pretty much every top PvE location. Yes, Ursan was overpowered as fcuk, and required no skill, but that doesn't change the fact that it WAS the better build.
The same way now a Barrage/Pet, or a SF farm, will do faster in, let's say Urgoz, a balanced will always be "slower", concidering they have more utility, and "useless" skills for situation that will never happen in that given area.
Regardless of fun, I play Monk, so I don't care what group the "damage dealers" form. I do find it sad for the Paragons, and other "left-out" imba farming professions that they simply don't have a chance in "pugging" in these elite areas.
Nonetheless, as I Monk, I prefer to "farm" Urgoz in 1 hours, than "balance" it in 3...
FoxBat
Koning
I play this game to have fun, not to fall asleep. Guess that leaves only one choice left 
zwei2stein
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Because they heard of 'i-way' and are bandwagoners in naming their builds.
I'd let that to be decided by someone with Linguistics & Sociology background, but i don't think that suffixing build name with -way could be considered just kids trying to be cool anymore.
It's more like part of GW jargon & gramatics.
It's more like part of GW jargon & gramatics.
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killed u man
The rest of your post is almost painful to read, especially where you assume balanced builds in a certain area run skills that would not be used in that area. I'm also not sure why you are so aggressively asserting that gimmicks are both simple and powerful (why else would people use them?), perhaps you have some issues with e-honor.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
It's more like part of GW jargon & gramatics.
By this point, yes, you are correct.
Elentari
Hmm well it's arguable what you can classify as "gimmick" or not.
From what I've read so far the topic started out as differentiating team builds as balanced or gimmick by sorting the general frontline-midline-backline template as balanced, and spank-and-tank spike builds as gimmick. According to that classification, yes I'd say balanced allows far more professions to be included in the build, and can deal pretty well with most if not all aspects of pve. But then the so called gimmick spike builds exist for a reason, and it's that they do accomplish certain specific areas faster, because they are built for it (obviously in both cases not considering fail pugs). Further down the thread, someone seemed to suggest a different classification, that gimmicks are builds that rely on a small number of overpowered skills to exploit game mechanics and getting ahead of others while using less skill. Although this correctly defines the term "gimmick", I think it's important that it's set apart from the original classification previously proposed. So now what we're really discussing is the nature of the skills involved in both types of builds, or more specifically, Save Yourselves and Cry of Pain (sure you can run "balanced" without save yourselves, and there's other "gimmicks" that don't revolve around cry of pain, but this is the main point i want to raise). Now let's face it, you really can't successfully argue that either one of these is more of a gimmick skill than the other: Save yourselves alone allows your entire party to tank massive amounts of damage, allowing you to work the rest of your builds to focus on offense and making quick work of whatever you encounter; and Cry of Pain's large-area-of-effect compressed raw damage makes impressively fast kills on clustered foes, at the cost of allowing only tanks, cryers (generally mesmers and eles) and monks into the party. I play both types of builds in pve, and I don't see anything wrong in it, but I really don't see one as more "balanced" in terms of skill and power than the other. Basically I think that most pve builds nowadays rely on inherently broken skills, but since it's available to us (which by the way I don't think they should be -> re-work the efficiency of pve skills so they don't make everything "easy-mode"). In any case, you play however you like, but it's unnecessary to undermine other people because they run builds that you think are overpowered and "lame", and as a result refuse to run it youself. In the end if you're playing with good players you can rack up any sensible build and become efficient at it, and then proceed to thinking you're pve gods and calling everyone else bad =P
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elentari
From what I've read so far the topic started out as differentiating team builds as balanced or gimmick by sorting the general frontline-midline-backline template as balanced, and spank-and-tank spike builds as gimmick. According to that classification, yes I'd say balanced allows far more professions to be included in the build, and can deal pretty well with most if not all aspects of pve. But then the so called gimmick spike builds exist for a reason, and it's that they do accomplish certain specific areas faster, because they are built for it (obviously in both cases not considering fail pugs). Further down the thread, someone seemed to suggest a different classification, that gimmicks are builds that rely on a small number of overpowered skills to exploit game mechanics and getting ahead of others while using less skill. Although this correctly defines the term "gimmick", I think it's important that it's set apart from the original classification previously proposed. So now what we're really discussing is the nature of the skills involved in both types of builds, or more specifically, Save Yourselves and Cry of Pain (sure you can run "balanced" without save yourselves, and there's other "gimmicks" that don't revolve around cry of pain, but this is the main point i want to raise). Now let's face it, you really can't successfully argue that either one of these is more of a gimmick skill than the other: Save yourselves alone allows your entire party to tank massive amounts of damage, allowing you to work the rest of your builds to focus on offense and making quick work of whatever you encounter; and Cry of Pain's large-area-of-effect compressed raw damage makes impressively fast kills on clustered foes, at the cost of allowing only tanks, cryers (generally mesmers and eles) and monks into the party. I play both types of builds in pve, and I don't see anything wrong in it, but I really don't see one as more "balanced" in terms of skill and power than the other. Basically I think that most pve builds nowadays rely on inherently broken skills, but since it's available to us (which by the way I don't think they should be -> re-work the efficiency of pve skills so they don't make everything "easy-mode"). In any case, you play however you like, but it's unnecessary to undermine other people because they run builds that you think are overpowered and "lame", and as a result refuse to run it youself. |
SY teams are 'balanced' in the sense they tend to rely on a mix of mechanics and abilities, but that's not the same meaning as 'balanced' in terms of what's overpowered or not. I don't think anyone can argue that SY (or most of the PvE skills, really) are balanced in terms of power.
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In the end if you're playing with good players you can rack up any sensible build and become efficient at it, and then proceed to thinking you're pve gods and calling everyone else bad =P
u mad?
Ultima pyromancer
I enjoy playing either.
I don't care whats considered lame or abuse, i enjoy playing the game my own way. Telling people that what they find fun in the game is lame or boring is just pointless. We all prefer a different playing style, some may love to button mash 1 2 3, some may love being on vent strategically planning out every pull and hell, some people like to not play the game at all and sit on these forums playing god. So agree to disagree. $0.02 faraaz
I prefer gimmick way...
Profit maximisation is the name of the game. Balanced way died with the release of Factions...
Arkantos faraaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
Funny, because around the same time, the skill of the PvE community started going down. Coincidence?
WtS Arkantos pre-nerf Shadow Form
gerg-nad
First, I find it amusing to say builds are gimmicks as every build better be synergistic in some fashion or you will be unsuccessful. Is there a difference between a Hoj-Poj group of folks and a team, I say there is. When you play football is everyone the running back or the center? No you have roles and responsibilities.
Second, I, like many others simply want to play the game not stand around for an hour balancing skills before even starting. Because of this I am a proponent of team builds, not individual builds (unless they are designed for soloing). Knowledge about a build and area are critical to success, but what I find annoying is the "punkness" which goes beyond arrogance many seem to have, which is often why PUGs are unsuccessful. I find it very hard to respect anyone calling someone a noob in a derogatory manner. Some may be less experience with an area or skill bar than others, but one should help them not berate them. I take solace in the fact that most of the folks who continue with the attitude of I am better than you and you are a "noob" mentality, do not have their drivers license and cannot vote. Sorry I got on my soapbox. Tyla
I think this thread has turned it's gear from post #39.
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