Guild Wars or Player philosophy change?

To an extent I think we can all agree Guild Wars is not what it use to be. Now before I go into this I would prefer no one comments unless they read it all but I know there is a QQ pew pew spree to follow if this isn't auto locked probably so here I go.

What do you guys think made GW the way it is today? Anet, or us? I know originally I loved the game. I was so antisocial when I started I seriously without even hench tried to solo everything and to be honest I made it to the first mission including all the quests with my Ele. I soon grew up and learned to be more social and love interacting with people and really appreciate the game what it was for. In life you have to deal with all kinds of people in work and in public and you have to accept that and hiding in some game with hench wont change the fact. In a way I saw the light that having a hundred skills > having a hundred levels to hit for more with one skill. I loved what they did originally and didn't even care for a level cap or experience I kept mine hidden so I could just play though the game and enjoy my fire/air/water hybrid...yea..it was lawls but I was new.

Now what it's become. Seems like it's every man for himself pretty much. Every man for himself and at times I see a full mission where everyone has a 8 over their head but only like 2 people bothered actually teaming up leaving me wondering why is this an MMO and not just a RPG for a console. Seems like a lot of people now prefer to "solo" which isn't really a solo at all since you're not alone you have H+H. Despite the stupidity of heroes compared to higher end players they still outdo most normal people apparently but allowing them into PvP really has sucked a lot of fun and life out of it. H+H isn't the issue though, what I'm on about is what lead to it.

I was watching the interviews on youtube and realized how they emphasized more solo capability and a higher level cap in GW2 hopefully which got me wonder.

Why and because who wanted it?

It seems to go against the original Guild Wars and to be honest with each release it drifts farther from balance and more into grinding terrain. If that's what some people want let it be there's a million MMOs made in Korea and areas like that a day where people can play the same game with "tweaks" and call it a new/better game. What I want though it not a spin off of a traditional MMO it's the fresh originality that was present from the start and Guild Wars 2 seems to be losing that.

Is Anet changing it's mind about what it wants, drifting more into social norms for cash? If so I would pay a huge monthly fee for a better GW than something trying to be like WoW which is as balanced as Rouge vs X. Seems like their just moving in an entire new style with their game play. Lets just hope the initial launch sales sustain it and it doesn't end up another AoC.

Or are the players in some way egging Anet on to the way the newer gen of GW players moving into the game as the Vets move out take control. I doubt that is the case though otherwise Anet would be a bad parent not telling the kids no. Seriously sometimes I wonder if they even are on top of it. They claim they don't allow discrimination but there are guilds for only X kinds of people. Yet they ban like wildfire due to reports which I have to say is one of the worst updates ever. I was in HA the other day with a pug and some kid kept reporting every for every mildly suggestive name, insult, or taunt and I seriously couldn't help but think IF ANET BANS SOMEONE BECAUSE THIS KIDS SACK HASN'T DROPPED YET. I understand extreme people but it's nothing you cant go to a store and hear a pissed customer yelling at the service desk with kids running around honestly and there is a filter and a rating to supposedly prevent little kids from picking up the game.

Or maybe Anet has simply decided that the new approach isn't worth it over the traditional one they seem to slowly be conforming into. Any input?

Looking for another game now to be honest, just got to wondering. If people wanted to solo there's a game for that so why help them along by giving them more stuff to be antisocial with everyone has to learn sometime.

So Anet, Whoru?

Because Anet has the data of how the majority of people are playing and the majority were playing with henchies long before heroes ever arrived. Then they started to read the forums and the majority were asking for something else to do besides farm and thus "unrequired" grind titles arrived (with exception of a couple that are easily obtained (sunspear and lightbringer) if you just play normally through the story). The majority aren't necessary to complete anything, but, they are something else to do besides just farm the same spots over n over day after day. Whether the small handful that QQ over grind want to accept it or not this is what the majority of other mmo's/mmorpgs do is add grind and goals to the games that keep people buying and playing them. All one has to do is look at WOW and WOW leads the market in grind and things you have to do to get to other things in the game. But, GW and most likely GW2 does not or will have forced grind as far as completing the story goes. Every player can complete every story and every chapter in GW right now without having to grind. Even the sunspear ranks to get out of newbieland now come as you just play out the story without having to repeat anything to get the required faction or rank needed to move on. Of course it does stifle runners and powergamers and I have nothing against that though I much preferred the key unlock method of Factions over Nightfalls way. I believe people should earn the ability to move on and not be able to run through the content no matter how many characters they play.
Also, I was never a proponent of skill > time as I like goals in my rpg's and I also like unlimited content in the way of powerful armors and weapons. GW grew old fast by not allowing weapons and armors and items to go beyond 15^50 or 80AL. For PVP I have no problem with static stats, but, for PVE there should be no limits and they should have also opened up all the elite areas so that we can play with heroes and henchies to the maximum of 8-12 players. Oh well, we shall see what changes they've made in about a year I'd guess when we start to get the first glimpes of GW2. Then we can all gnaw and gnash out teeth about those things we don't like about it.

I'm also wary about guild wars 2, some parts sound like great ideas, while others sound like theyre going to move guild wars so far from what it was originally i dont even want to play it. I also am not a fan of heroes. Allowing the use of them in gvg was the beginning of the end imo.

At least we'll have diablo 3 before then

Yeah I can hardly wait for Diablo 3 myself. I just hope the world is bigger than the last one and lots more phat loot. I had so much fun using the Horadric cube to make stuff with also. I also wish for a Diablo movie since they did a Doom movie an all. Diablo has always been my 2nd favorite next to Ultima IV.

So due to the new majority of players preferring to grind a little more the whole game seems to shift from what it use to be to PvE fairy land.

I believe it's actually pathetic enough they had to mark PvP areas of the game and not make an icon in PvE instead saying "This is PvE....why are you here?" Dunno always liked the PvP aspect of the game and I hope they don't ruin it for the sake of new players in GW2.

To be honest if it was all about what players wanted, Guild Wars wouldn't really be would it? Everyone is stuck in their ways.

Rewind 3 years and ask around what people want out of a MMO game. You will probably get just another WoW/Everquest/traditional game clone. To go in their own direction and really set themselves apart and end up going back to the masses seems like their kicking themselves and regretting the initial way things started off or something, I don't know what but something must of changed drastically.

Now tell me if Guild Wars 1 had 100 levels and you could use 7 heroes and everything was big damage and big heals as you soloed it, would people play it? It seems like a nice idea to a lot of people but in all honesty...most people would migrate to WoW or another one of the million or so MMOs already designed for that purpose. So why now...

I dunno who works there but it sounds like they hired a lot of new people with a lot of old ideas that want to spin it off in a new yet fail way tbh.

So how bout that Lich King...

I understand you not NEEDING to grind in the game but in a way it suckers and bullies you into it. It's like ok that's a nice title to have and maybe work on to strengthen its small yet situational good skills. Then came the HoM aka doomsday. Where it became from playing for fun to, if you want any credit what so ever for anything you wasted life on in GW1 in the next game you MUST max out this and that and grind this title for at least a month. Now I understand you don't have to...but you must admit in a way you are compelled to..aren't you? The only thing I was hoping would cut me some slack like the recent books released was just another kick in the balls. Was thinking phew can finally get SOME points towards titles I don't wanna farm but no...not Anet...they unban bots and people continue to do it but giving points to a title for a fair player..naw.

If they didn't promote grinding wouldn't just having any means of the title qualify for useful grounds instead of wasting your life grinding on a game that was originally trying to escape that trend. I have better things to do..just worked 9 hours and posted this to vent. I am disappointed in the way GW2 is being presented but I remain hopeful that the things we do not know may yet shine light on the game. So I await with neither high nor low expectations..just wait..

Btw if it is for the money

http://kotaku.com/5103503/age-of-conan-tanked-heres-why

"catering only to those who enjoy antisocial MMO behavior and all of the genre's most tedious tasks"

So learn a thing or two and make us all happy

anet needs (wants) money
and there r more ppl that solo h/h and farm pve than competitive pvp

so it was anet that changed

why does this kind of thread pop up everyday?

Answer: PvE/grinding makes more money for ANET, they're adjusting to the lowest common denominator.

Riverside should just be turned into a FAQ thread

I would have to say Anet but the community wanted customised henchman. I did some soloing when the game first came out but I grouped more often back then and was social.I even found it easy to recriut new guildies into my guild but today they may leave.

It could be both of the community plus Anet I don't want to get into GW2 as they have their heart set on it.I am not sure if I like the whole concept of it and some what abbondoning my GW account if I do play GW2.I am on the fence still.

They're changing gears in GW2 because in GW1 it didn't work. With so many restrictions in place - entirely instanced, thousands of outposts, numerous districts, the need to have a full party 24/7 (mostly requiring 7 other people) - I'm frankly quite surprised it lasted as well as it did.

In GW2 they're simply making the partying optional, and hopefully making you far less screwed if you can't find someone to play with. Aside from that it'll still be GW1: If you want to play with other players, simply find others with like-minded interests.

@OP: a friendly tip: you should try to punctuate more (comma's!) to make your posts easier to read, and edit posts instead of triple posting.

On the subject: GW is my first MMO, and when I first started, I was amazed at the vastness of the game (although I think Oblivion was bigger, but that was solo). I absolutely loved the fact that you could PUG. But soon I discovered that many people can be absolute rude a*ses. There are many childish kids that kinda ruin the social aspect. Secondly, people can Leroy and ruin a mission for the rest. But fortunately there were guilds! So I created a guild with a friend, and we started recruiting. We found many friendly players, and I still enjoy my guild a lot. And fortunately not every stranger is a jerk, so from time to time you still meet friendly people in towns, who have a clue how to play a mission. But the truth is: Ever since factions arrived, I've only played with guildmates. When heroes arrived, it was simply made easier to complete a party, which imo was a good thing. Besides, you could control heroes better, set up their skill bars yourself, which made them fun. Missions stopped being hard, because there was more control. Losing due to uncontrolled people or henchies is justy frustrating, and ruins the game imo. If you lose simply because you're new at it, that's something else, but losing while knowing full well how to beat a mission, due to an uncontrollable factor plain sucks.
Of course you have the sabway/discordway builds that can make it too easy, but there are many many ways to use your heroes, so whether people like sab/discordway or not, it's entirely up to you how and if you use them.

Now, what I love and would like to see in GW2 is progress through quests and missions like it is now. You have to follow a huge storyline to achieve something. Make it versatile enough for all to enjoy. I'm not bothered if the possibility exists to be ran somewhere, as long as it's limited to a certain point where you have to do a quest or mission to advance. Like in the crystal desert for example. I really don't care if people rush through the game, doing only the main quests and missions. I for one love to do all the sidequests, slowly levelling along the way, learning new skills, tactics, exploring areas etc. The thing is, that that gets boring after 3 times through the story, and people start calling it grind. So I'm hoping GW2 has multiple lines to follow (like the kurzick/luxon part), which you can opt to complete, or simply follow one of them to complete the game. Grind is having to do certain things over and over again to achieve progress. Doing all sorts of quests along the storyline is not grind, as long as you only have to do them once with each character. So what did cause grind? Titles did! But titles can be fun, they give you something to go for, along with certain PvE skills that can be very handy. The thing is, some titles are just too hard to max, and take a lot of repetition, and so they become grind.
I simply hope that if there are titles in GW2, they:
* do not require grind in the sense of having to do the SAME thing over and over. Simply require them to get maxed by doing different available quests. More contect = more fun = no grind (and also no bots!).
* will make them balanced from the start. No broken titles that need to be fixed 3 years after release. That just upsets people. Get it right from the start please.

in short, the community changed so gw2 changed as well.

- You people really don't get why grind exists? ANET made a 40-50 hours worth of unique gameplay in Prophecies and the numbers are same for virtually any game released. Then they discovered there were people with thousand hours logged just sitting around outposts with nothing to do, so they added grind for these players. That's it.

I'm in the same boat. I don't play any of the others anymore and I always go back to GW. Just something about it that keeps bringing me back.

And yeah, now-a-days I seem to do the majority of things with h/h. *sigh*

Ahhhh but you leave out the most important ingredient of why GW survives.. No Monthly Fee. AOC tanked because it had a monthly fee and is grinding, WOW already has that market cornered so why play another? But, there isn't a high level no monthly fee game that offers the same as WOW does and that is where Anet and GW2 can jump right in and take off as the only high quality MMO to offer No Monthly Fee, but, also unique quality PVP play as well. It's going to sell, it's what the masses want and Anet is going to provide it for them in GW2.

Guild Wars is simply the best in what it does and what it offers.


Yes, it has flaws (antisocial aspect isn't one of them). And so what? It's still the best in what it does and what it offers. It's worth the money.

I would like more PUGing myself, but can ANet change the personality of people? Can ANet reform idiots? No, they can't. Guilds, friend lists and forum are salvation.

The only 'PUG' I join right now are mesmer meetings every saturday. I'm pretty sure others can do something fun as well. Zoo crew did. And I think that's the key to multiplayer aspect. Guilds, and theme pugs. Not anonimous pugs every time you play, over and over again.

- Can ANET improve party search? Can ANET make it so that taking other people with you would be beneficial decision in gameplay logic, something that Diablo II managed to do quite well? Let's not forget our everyday FPS game servers. Whether you got 12 or 20 people with you makes little difference, more the merrier, rather! The fundamental decisions made in development phase translate to the kind of problems we're facing right now. Who's going to take seven people with him on mundane point A point B quests? Get real.

time out. lets think here. anet ruined pugging. think back to the days where toa was a mad town. pugs were the rage. heroes didnt exist. grind was long and tedious. when you formed a pug, you hovered the mouse over the name of the person that wanted in... armor, title, it mattered. now with the new 'no grind' attitude and handing out of money like crazy, 15k armor isnt really rare now and titles are a gimme. you cant judge players like you could before. now you have players that have no skill with the appearance of skill. players wanted to look 'leet' so they complained about too much grind. truth is, people will never be happy unless everything is just given to them, but then they wont be happy cuz theres no goals. also, no matter how much grind there is, someone will work for it and get it. (ex: starcraft = r15, well leeloof too, but starcraft > leeloof) titles used to be a way of telling how determined a player was. goals are what keeps people playing, yes, they want them easier, but then they arent as cool. anet is catering to people that complain, its sad.

So most GW players should love AOC.

Going to double answer here.

So if Anet is changing major things like grind, adding races, increasing level cap for money why didn't the first GW do the same? Did they expect more money with a new approach?

I'm seriously not sure here but I have to ask are the same people working on GW2 as GW1? Seems like people with a more traditional bland look on things than more people trying to make a groundbreaking new approach to an otherwise overdone and seemingly bland genre. But if it's the same people they must of lost their touch.

Now to your post ^__^ I must say it seems to be true. The more QQs on forums the more nerf nerfs and grind grind and this and that.

Anet, this is YOUR game, you can say no. You ALREADY MADE THE MONEY you have no further need to cater to people who already bought a game with no subscription fee. You felt no need to not f over tons of people who were here from the start with huge skill and pvp function reworks yet now you feel the need to listen to every PvEr who buys this game and goes WTF WHY ISN'T THIS LIKE WoW! Honestly, seriously?

When I first heard of GW2 I was psyched wondering how they'd further their branches into their own original game designs, functions, and depth in general. When learning what they are trying to be like now..it just doesn't seem like Guild Wars at all..not the one I picked up.

Years ago I was playing Runescape and picked this game up by request like what's a monk, why do you need a healer just eat a lobster or drink a pot. Everything seemed so strange and surreal in a way. Now I can't imagine doing anything else and I regret ever questioning the level cap because I love the game for what it is. With so many MMOs out there there's one for everyone and I loved this one to the point I still play no other game. Free MMOs like Perfect World as well show up all the time for each persons own taste yet people feel the need to leech onto an original game and conform it to social norms form my perspective.

Compared to most MMOs GW gameplay is buttersmooth if you think about it but I'm honestly not expecting that out of GW2 for some reason..just barely holding onto hope..let's hope they prove me wrong.

Sounds like because people are poor they want a free WoW from your perspective...I wouldn't mind paying for a GW the way it was originally though. I didn't then when I picked it up, I would of paid monthly added onto the game also.

Fact remains though that past the initial purchase GW2 will NEED to keep selling expansions and such to keep going because unlike the one time fee of the game the server costs, maintain the site, employees to fix up bugs and add on to the game, will all indefinitely cost money. So if it tanks to WoW like so many others you will see and feel the impact. Game might still be there but it wont be the same game if you know what I mean.

Just seems like their original concept of a new fresh game seems to be changing and I really wish to understand why.

You can't ever provide the same amount of content, quality, and reassurance that WoW has without a monthly fee.

We already heard that GW2 will feature larger (in terms of player numbers) instances that can also be entered and left easily, or anytime.

IMO: The focus on solo play and away from the need for a full party will dramatically change the game. You will solo adventure explorables like zones in WoW. Only for certain quests or dungeon runs you would form a party.
Which is supposed to become easier due to the changed way instances shall work, I already mentioned that. They should also improve the LFG interface, at least up to the standard of WoW. The addition of a simple LFG channel would be a great help IMO.

I hope they will give us challenging and fun gameplay. Challenging does not mean impossible for Joe Average, but it would require early areas to educate players about some basic tactics and give them incentives and rewards to become better.

For right now the trend seems to be to dumb down MMOs to pure grind with little longevity. Let me compare Eye of the North, which did not offer too much content, but had at least some replay value once you did all of it, with Wrath of the Lich King.

In Wrath of the Lich King, the zone mobs are pathetic and instances and raids have become so easy even in heroic mode (tanks have no problems holding aggro and all I do is to cast rain of fire like Ozzy Osbourne...^^) that things get easily boring. Naxxramas has not only been cleared by 25th November (formerly known as Nihilum), I already pugged the 10 man version and Sartharion was the only thing left before I cancelled my account (again, I play WoW usually for a few weeks/months and then I am usually bored). Then only thing left to do was to do daily quests for some reputation with various factions (attention: not a single faction requires nearly as much grind to maximize reputation as some GW1 titles!), and I did not feel like helping sea cows to mate every day.

I wonder what ANet is going to do. If they try to copy WoW, they will always fail. A fee-free WoW is IMO almost impossible, and if people wanted to play WoW, they would play it.


I wonder about their ideas for GW2, for so far we heard most about it the day it was announced - and then there was a long silence. A beta test im late 2008 did not happen.

So I wonder what will happen - big GW2 Christmas or New Year's Revelation by Regina B.? The lack of news is a bit disturbing. We have seen a lot of MMOs fail or underperform recently. Tabula Rasa shut down, Age of Conan and Warhammer did not live up to the hype either, IMO.

Maybe that's why their keeping quiet and focusing on developing a game that will not fail miserably. It's a new philosophy of marketing - content over hype.

Social - people like to play with their friends. The idea of a "MMO" sounds great in one sense, but there is really little desire on most people's part to play with totally random strangers (in a co-op setting). However, in order to form Guilds and find new friends, some sort of MMO aspect is desired.
Some people suggest that players in GW are "anti-social" because the don't PUG, but that ignores the majority of players who are in Guilds and spend a lot of their time playing (socializing) with Guild-mates.
I like the fact that you can PUG, or play with friends, or play solo (H&H) if you want. Choice is good.

Grind - There are some games where you actually must grind to be able to achieve something, but GW isn't really one of them.
Yes, maxing out your titles does require some grind, but there is no demand that you max any title. There are no skills, weapons, armor, etc., that demand you have a certain title rank to use - such as a skill that only works if you have level9 in a rank.
Instead, you have PvE skills that do increase in power as you go up in rank, but they are usable (and powerful) at any rank. For example, [cry of pain] gives 93 damage per foe at SS rank 8 - which is easily attainable during normal play. The damage goes to 95 (+2) at rank 9 and 100 (+7) at level10. In PvE, the +2 or +7 damage wouldn't make any noticeable difference to the time or difficulty it takes a group (of 8) to accomplish a goal. In other words, the gain in power from maxing a title is not "required" in any sense, and is relatively small.
So, IMHO, there is not really much reason to QQ about "grind" in GW when the grind is really not needed. Do it if you want, but stop bitching about it.

Same goes for the HoM, btw. ANet has said that anything carried over to GW2 from the HoM will be cosmetic only - special armors and/or titles. If you feel that grinding your way to a full HoM is something you want to do - go for it. It will get you something in GW2 that says "I ground my ass off", but nothing important - nothing you "need" - nothing to grind for if you don't like grind.

P.s. - It seemed to me, from what little experience I had with it, that Age of Conan, with it's emphasis on PvP and blood and guts, was aimed at the 12yr olds who would find that stuff "epic". I'm glad it has sort of tanked - it might encourage NCsoft to steer away from that direction for GW2. (A lot of the recent stuff in GW1 seems aimed at 12yr olds, and it worries me a bit. )

Precisely...which is why you offer and refine something unique that WoW doesn't offer...quality PvP. You don't change your game to try and offer things that are already offered better by WoW.

I already stated that 1 year ago. People that can grind are poor people. Students that are lazy, unemployed people, housewives. They have a lot of time but few money. They switched from WoW to GW because it costed less. Asked for grind, because being efficient is too hard for them.
So now we have a grinder-friendly game instead of a casual-frindely game.
I hereby ask a Monthly fee for Guild Wars.

Agreed which is why I don't understand why they are changing accordingly.

I MAINLY started GW to be honest because I got to play a human, it didn't force me to start as some ugly troll or something to be the best at what I do which is why other games put me off for a while. This too will soon go away it seems...

Wouldn't mind that tbh but as I stated there are tons of games like Perfect World and Runescape and Requiem and you name it that you don't even have to pay for to begin with. Why don't they just find one of the million games like that for themselves. Seems extremely weak of Anet to try and please people that would be better off in another game because when that game comes or when they can afford or are given WoW Anet just changed to get dumped like some teenage girl =\

It's your game it was amazing if anything add more missions and such and maybe skills. Professions and titles and all this other bull I didn't even start playing for so why add it. Breaking balance and telling people who you offered a game to escape grinding that to get any credit for your work you must grind it for GW2 seems like a slap in the face.

You have no clue. Many GW players, I'd say most, are simply opposed on prinicple to paying a monthly subsription for any game. And many WoW players are the students and housewives that you think are too broke to pay a subsription. The sure way for GW2 to fail is to follow your advice--existing GW players would mostly move on to something else, and be replaced by...no one.

Exactly I'm glad someone else understands the nature of mmorpging. Anet can call it whatever they like, but, the majority of people see it as an mmo and/or mmorpg moreso than some coop type game. I look forward to the changes when GW2 comes out. This one got boring and old fast except for the PVP which is still fun from time to time.

Before PvE titles, for which IMO only a few mean player skill(and even that is questionable) , people just played. There were the PvP rank emotes that palyers would display, no PvE titles.
15k armor was not extremely common, but was not that tough to get if you put in some time - and really not that much.
As more people played longer, 15k and fissure became more common.

And there were players that had the appearance of at least some skill, they had 15k or fissure and at least 1 rare skinned weapon. Welcome to getting run and E-Bay.

For me titles mean you put time into something, aka grind or whatever you want to call it.

The community and Anet lead us here. Gotta love 20 mins speed clears of FoW in HM, I'll leave it there as that is not the game I started playing in 2005.