This is just more of a musing than a question, as there is next to no professional history, but I was just pondering whether Abaddon would've granted professional powers to his devout followers.
If the followers of Lyssa are granted the Mesmeric arts, followers of Melandru the Ranger's craft etc. etc...
Where does Abaddon fit into the picture?
Any thoughts?
Did Abaddon have a profession following?
Kelen
Konig Des Todes
I'm sure he would fit with either Paragons or Dervishes of times past, but when he got sent to the RoT, any profession connection would have been whipped clean. So looking at the professions themselves, you cannot tell.
However, seeing how Lord Jadoth, the first Margonite blessed by Abaddon, and Varesh Ossa are Paragons - at least after being "blessed" - I'd have to say Paragon is linked to Abaddon.
Just as the Facet of Spirit, i.e., Kormir's Facet, is a Dervish, her profession link would be Dervish, despite being a Paragon as a mortal.
However, seeing how Lord Jadoth, the first Margonite blessed by Abaddon, and Varesh Ossa are Paragons - at least after being "blessed" - I'd have to say Paragon is linked to Abaddon.
Just as the Facet of Spirit, i.e., Kormir's Facet, is a Dervish, her profession link would be Dervish, despite being a Paragon as a mortal.
Sin City Gamer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin
However, seeing how Lord Jadoth, the first Margonite blessed by Abaddon, and Varesh Ossa are Paragons - at least after being "blessed" - I'd have to say Paragon is linked to Abaddon.
Just as the Facet of Spirit, i.e., Kormir's Facet, is a Dervish, her profession link would be Dervish, despite being a Paragon as a mortal. |
Varesh was a Dervish prior to her transformation into a Margonite, and even then other than carrying a spear, she showed no signs of actually being a Paragon. (see the talk page on the link you provided for a breakdown of that argument)
As for Kormir's "facet" being a dervish and not a paragon, the dervishes of the world are the holy warriors of all the gods, so it would make sense for ANY of the facets to be a dervish. Granted, warriors make sense for Balthazar, monks for Dwayna, etc etc etc, but given the dervishes connection to the gods, not just god, puts them in the position of being a propos for any of the facets.
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you Azazel. There is no concrete evidence linking Abaddon (or Kormir, for that matter) to any specific profession.
Konig Des Todes
I wasn't saying that was concrete, I was saying there are implications of that.
And your points are equally valid, and equally invalid. It can be either or in this case really. Although your points bring up a better argument.
And your points are equally valid, and equally invalid. It can be either or in this case really. Although your points bring up a better argument.
Sin City Gamer
Ahhhh...
Then I apologize for my misread of your post.
Either way, it is a very interesting question.
Some classes are very clearly tied to specific gods (Warriors to Balthazar, mesmers to Lyssa), whereas others are not. (Assassins to both Lyssa and Grenth, elementalists depending on thier element of focus, etc.)
One would assume that a class would be linked with Abaddon, but barring more insight to his true nature prior to his imprisonment, it's hard to say.
Then I apologize for my misread of your post.
Either way, it is a very interesting question.
Some classes are very clearly tied to specific gods (Warriors to Balthazar, mesmers to Lyssa), whereas others are not. (Assassins to both Lyssa and Grenth, elementalists depending on thier element of focus, etc.)
One would assume that a class would be linked with Abaddon, but barring more insight to his true nature prior to his imprisonment, it's hard to say.
Konig Des Todes
Well, Abaddon is the God of Secrets and water so prior to his fall, Water Elementalists would fall under him.
Although I guess we can say, other then that, there is no definitive profession under him, but anyone who lived at sea (i.e., Margonites pre-"blessed") and traders would go under him, and most of whatever professions they would be.
There is also the case of, except for one year, professions were not a wide account. Also, even the first blessed of Abaddon was in that year. So it is also very likely there was no profession to Abaddon.
With that in mind we can say that, while the other five gods had blessed/chosen followers (i.e., Desmina for Grenth), the professions themselves didn't exist prior to 1 BE, except for those few chosen followers. That is except for the non-magic professions (and attributes).
Meaning, prior to 1 BE, only Ritualists (as proven by An Empire Divided they exists before Abaddon gave magic to the world), Assassins (in terms of Dagger Mastery, and some Critical Strikes), Warriors (maybe not all skills, but most of what we see), Rangers (at least charm animal and Marksmanship/Expertise, possibly other things as well), Paragons (at least with Spear Mastery, not sure about all those shouts), and Dervishes (at least Scythe Mastery). And on that, a generic wand/staff whacking guy (i.e., using staves as melee weapons).
Eh, I'm starting to ramble on now.
Although I guess we can say, other then that, there is no definitive profession under him, but anyone who lived at sea (i.e., Margonites pre-"blessed") and traders would go under him, and most of whatever professions they would be.
There is also the case of, except for one year, professions were not a wide account. Also, even the first blessed of Abaddon was in that year. So it is also very likely there was no profession to Abaddon.
With that in mind we can say that, while the other five gods had blessed/chosen followers (i.e., Desmina for Grenth), the professions themselves didn't exist prior to 1 BE, except for those few chosen followers. That is except for the non-magic professions (and attributes).
Meaning, prior to 1 BE, only Ritualists (as proven by An Empire Divided they exists before Abaddon gave magic to the world), Assassins (in terms of Dagger Mastery, and some Critical Strikes), Warriors (maybe not all skills, but most of what we see), Rangers (at least charm animal and Marksmanship/Expertise, possibly other things as well), Paragons (at least with Spear Mastery, not sure about all those shouts), and Dervishes (at least Scythe Mastery). And on that, a generic wand/staff whacking guy (i.e., using staves as melee weapons).
Eh, I'm starting to ramble on now.
Free Runner
Concept art of what appeared to be Abaddon before his fall was on the pre release CD and is hidden on a few dungeon walls. On it hes wielding a scythe. So he could of been the patron god of the Dervish profession. Additionally as Azazel said, Water Elementalists would of no doubt followed him before the handover to Grenth.
xanarot
Generally the following is used.
Balthazar;
Warrior, Fire ele, Smite/prot monks, com/spear paragons, balth dervishes.
Dwayna;
Monks, air ele's, wind prayer/dwayna dervishes, leader/mot paragons.
Grenth;
Necromancers, water ele's, assassins, ritualists, grenth dervishes
Lyssa;
Mesmers, assassins, lyssa dervishes or regular dervishes (those without an avatar and no wind prayers and no earth prayers). However, ele's also seem aligned to lyssa trough energy storage.
Melandru;
Rangers, earth ele's, melandru/earth prayer dervishes
All this can be gathered from the god's descriptions in-game.
NOTE
The only missing is Paragon, which seems hidden in the lines of the following;
"Balthazar gives strength to soldiers marching into battle and any adventurer who’s ready for a fight. He guides the sharpened edge of a sword or axe so that it cuts deeply. Many insist that he watches over the battlegrounds of the world to see who glorifies his name"
This indicates him as a commander; the aid on hitting/deeply and increasing soldiers strength in battle is exactly what the paragon does. The reason this is for sure, is that the champions of balthazar give paragon boosts when kneeled in front of it.
For dwayna, the only indication to the paragon is the mention about "wings" which is often seen on paragons.
So yes, dervish is indeed for all gods; the avatar and attribute choises decide which god he/she worships.
As for water ele's, you can watch the description that water ele's werent part of grenth in the discription untill Nightfall, while the ele's were already mentioned for the other gods. This implicates that water ele's were indeed part of abaddon. When abaddon became their enemy/was slain, they chose a new god; grenth. Reason being that death is often considered 'cold' and that necromancers were already using cold (thus water) magic. This could be the reason why water ele's arent mentioned under any god untill Nightfall.
Balthazar;
Warrior, Fire ele, Smite/prot monks, com/spear paragons, balth dervishes.
Dwayna;
Monks, air ele's, wind prayer/dwayna dervishes, leader/mot paragons.
Grenth;
Necromancers, water ele's, assassins, ritualists, grenth dervishes
Lyssa;
Mesmers, assassins, lyssa dervishes or regular dervishes (those without an avatar and no wind prayers and no earth prayers). However, ele's also seem aligned to lyssa trough energy storage.
Melandru;
Rangers, earth ele's, melandru/earth prayer dervishes
All this can be gathered from the god's descriptions in-game.
NOTE
The only missing is Paragon, which seems hidden in the lines of the following;
"Balthazar gives strength to soldiers marching into battle and any adventurer who’s ready for a fight. He guides the sharpened edge of a sword or axe so that it cuts deeply. Many insist that he watches over the battlegrounds of the world to see who glorifies his name"
This indicates him as a commander; the aid on hitting/deeply and increasing soldiers strength in battle is exactly what the paragon does. The reason this is for sure, is that the champions of balthazar give paragon boosts when kneeled in front of it.
For dwayna, the only indication to the paragon is the mention about "wings" which is often seen on paragons.
So yes, dervish is indeed for all gods; the avatar and attribute choises decide which god he/she worships.
As for water ele's, you can watch the description that water ele's werent part of grenth in the discription untill Nightfall, while the ele's were already mentioned for the other gods. This implicates that water ele's were indeed part of abaddon. When abaddon became their enemy/was slain, they chose a new god; grenth. Reason being that death is often considered 'cold' and that necromancers were already using cold (thus water) magic. This could be the reason why water ele's arent mentioned under any god untill Nightfall.
Rick Thene
Also, that excerpt from Abbadon's Scripture says he gifted Jadoth with magic, and that magic allowed Jadoth to cause storms and sink ships at sea.
For that, my vote goes to Water Eles.
That of course raises the question as to why Jadoth is a Paragon now...
For that, my vote goes to Water Eles.
That of course raises the question as to why Jadoth is a Paragon now...
Free Runner
Jadoth was Abaddons best tactician. And Paragons are natural Commanders. So having him as a Paragon makes sense.
As for Dervishes following all 5 gods that is true. But before the outcast they could of followed him, later following all 5 gods. Both Kayhet and Varesh are dervishes and Kayhet was Varesh's teacher.
As for Dervishes following all 5 gods that is true. But before the outcast they could of followed him, later following all 5 gods. Both Kayhet and Varesh are dervishes and Kayhet was Varesh's teacher.
ac1inferno
Balthazar is the god of war and fire, and Patron god of Warriors, Pyromancers, Protection and Smiting Monks, and Command and Spear Paragons. Dwayna is the goddess of life and air. She is the patroness goddess of Monks (particularly Healing Monks), Aeromancers and Leadership and Motivation Paragons, and is considered the leader of the old gods. Several Monk healing spells are named after Dwayna. Grenth is the god of death and ice. He is the lord of the Underworld and the patron god of Ritualists, Necromancers, and Hydromancers. Lyssa (sometimes only called Lyss) is the twin goddess of beauty and illusion. She is the patroness goddess of Mesmers and Assassins. She is also associated with Energy, Chaos and the attributes of Energy Storage and Mysticism. Melandru is the goddess of earth and nature. She is the patroness goddess of Rangers, Earth Dervishes and Geomancers.
Abaddon is the name of a dark fallen god that was outcast by the Gods of Tyria long ago and exiled to the Realm of Torment. He was formerly the God of Water and Knowledge and known to the Order of the Whispers as the God of Secrets.
Kormir, the Goddess of Truth is the immortal incarnation of Kormir, the former Spearmarshal of the Order of the Sunspears. After having defeated the fallen god Abaddon, Kormir absorbed the divine power that was released, sacrificing herself, and thereby became an immortal god, taking over from Abaddon the powers of the God of Knowledge and Truth.
It is suspected that Grenth may have replaced Abaddon as the god of water, however this is never outright stated, and the water portfolio may have been divided between several gods.
Abaddon is the name of a dark fallen god that was outcast by the Gods of Tyria long ago and exiled to the Realm of Torment. He was formerly the God of Water and Knowledge and known to the Order of the Whispers as the God of Secrets.
Kormir, the Goddess of Truth is the immortal incarnation of Kormir, the former Spearmarshal of the Order of the Sunspears. After having defeated the fallen god Abaddon, Kormir absorbed the divine power that was released, sacrificing herself, and thereby became an immortal god, taking over from Abaddon the powers of the God of Knowledge and Truth.
It is suspected that Grenth may have replaced Abaddon as the god of water, however this is never outright stated, and the water portfolio may have been divided between several gods.
Free Runner
All that is...common knowledge.....and it holds very little relevence to the OP's question.
Also its true that it never outright states that Grenth tookover Water once Abaddon was defeated, but its also never said the other gods had anything to do with water.
Dhuum is only ever labeled as the god of death (unlike Grenth, he ruled from the Chaos Planes) and the other 5 gods each have their own element or power. So its logical to say that Grenth became the god of death when he defeated Dhuum and was later given rule over Water, due to there being no sixth god.
Also its true that it never outright states that Grenth tookover Water once Abaddon was defeated, but its also never said the other gods had anything to do with water.
Dhuum is only ever labeled as the god of death (unlike Grenth, he ruled from the Chaos Planes) and the other 5 gods each have their own element or power. So its logical to say that Grenth became the god of death when he defeated Dhuum and was later given rule over Water, due to there being no sixth god.
xanarot
Actually it says it all. Its the same as in the in-game lore (see my post); all proffesions got their own god, or gods depending on their spec.
Actually it says about grenth, read the teksts. Proph/Fac; no mention of water/ele's for grenth. NF; suddenly water ele's in grenth's followers. Kinda says it all imo.
For reference; the god's descriptions were properly updates for factions and nf with new text and to include the new proffesions, so that change must've been intentional.
Your thought on dhuum cant be accurate, since if that is the case there should be 5 elements or that argument doesnt hold.. there are only 4.. says enough?
Also, there are 6 gods. Always have, always will; if a god dies it must be replaced to control that part of the universe/planet/forces or however you prefer to call it that keeps balance. That is also why the gods couldnt kill abaddon. In that perspective, there should even be 6 elements instead of the known 4, to further destroy your argument on elements.
As abaddon clearly had his powers left while being captured (aiding varesh, controlling his minions, altering the lands etc) he must also still have had control over his share of the proffessions untill he was slain.
This further strenghtens the fact that water ele's werent mentioned anywhere despite earth/fire/air being mentioned seperatly since the start of prophecies.
Is it;
a) more logical to assume they missed water ele for 2 years in the description, and again when rewriting the descriptions for factions and just had to dump water ele's in somewhere?
OR
b) more logical to assume they left out water ele's for 2 years, since they already had the god abaddon on paper about being god of water but just didnt mention it for being a spoiler?
Actually it says about grenth, read the teksts. Proph/Fac; no mention of water/ele's for grenth. NF; suddenly water ele's in grenth's followers. Kinda says it all imo.
For reference; the god's descriptions were properly updates for factions and nf with new text and to include the new proffesions, so that change must've been intentional.
Your thought on dhuum cant be accurate, since if that is the case there should be 5 elements or that argument doesnt hold.. there are only 4.. says enough?
Also, there are 6 gods. Always have, always will; if a god dies it must be replaced to control that part of the universe/planet/forces or however you prefer to call it that keeps balance. That is also why the gods couldnt kill abaddon. In that perspective, there should even be 6 elements instead of the known 4, to further destroy your argument on elements.
As abaddon clearly had his powers left while being captured (aiding varesh, controlling his minions, altering the lands etc) he must also still have had control over his share of the proffessions untill he was slain.
This further strenghtens the fact that water ele's werent mentioned anywhere despite earth/fire/air being mentioned seperatly since the start of prophecies.
Is it;
a) more logical to assume they missed water ele for 2 years in the description, and again when rewriting the descriptions for factions and just had to dump water ele's in somewhere?
OR
b) more logical to assume they left out water ele's for 2 years, since they already had the god abaddon on paper about being god of water but just didnt mention it for being a spoiler?
Konig Des Todes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by xanarot
Actually it says about grenth, read the teksts. Proph/Fac; no mention of water/ele's for grenth. NF; suddenly water ele's in grenth's followers. Kinda says it all imo.
For reference; the god's descriptions were properly updates for factions and nf with new text and to include the new proffesions, so that change must've been intentional. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by xanarot
Your thought on dhuum cant be accurate, since if that is the case there should be 5 elements or that argument doesnt hold.. there are only 4.. says enough?
Also, there are 6 gods. Always have, always will; if a god dies it must be replaced to control that part of the universe/planet/forces or however you prefer to call it that keeps balance. That is also why the gods couldnt kill abaddon. In that perspective, there should even be 6 elements instead of the known 4, to further destroy your argument on elements. |
Four Core:
Air
Water
Earth
Fire
Additional:
Metal (usually in Asian cultures)
Rock
Ice
Ether (the most universal "5th element")
Time
Of course, Rock and Ice, even Metal for that matter, are just variations of Water and Earth, so those are usually ruled out as elements, but Ether and Time still exist, and are sometimes considered elements. Ether, in the GW universe, I surmise would be considered the Mists.
As for your comment on Dhuum, I'll leave that to Free Runner to rebuttal, as I think you misunderstood what he said, and if you didn't then I either misunderstood FR, or I misunderstand you.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by xanarot
As abaddon clearly had his powers left while being captured (aiding varesh, controlling his minions, altering the lands etc) he must also still have had control over his share of the proffessions untill he was slain.
This further strenghtens the fact that water ele's werent mentioned anywhere despite earth/fire/air being mentioned seperatly since the start of prophecies. Is it; a) more logical to assume they missed water ele for 2 years in the description, and again when rewriting the descriptions for factions and just had to dump water ele's in somewhere? OR b) more logical to assume they left out water ele's for 2 years, since they already had the god abaddon on paper about being god of water but just didnt mention it for being a spoiler? |
So where did Water go?
To Grenth.
Because of that, I have to go with a) of what you said, despite the "somewhere." As many things of the water magic line deals with ice, and since Grenth has always been the God of Death and Ice, I think it is safe to assume that they simply forgot to put that down in the manuscripts of Prophecies.
Free Runner
Quote:
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Originally Posted by xanarot
Actually it says about grenth, read the teksts. Proph/Fac; no mention of water/ele's for grenth. NF; suddenly water ele's in grenth's followers. Kinda says it all imo.
For reference; the god's descriptions were properly updates for factions and nf with new text and to include the new proffesions, so that change must've been intentional. |
If Earth Elementalists follow Melandru who rules over Earth anf Fire Eles follow Balthazar who rules over fire....you should instantly realise that Water Eles would follow the god of ice/water/cold.....which is Grenth.
Quote:
| Your thought on dhuum cant be accurate, since if that is the case there should be 5 elements or that argument doesnt hold.. there are only 4.. says enough? |
My thoughts on Dhumm where that he never had an element, meaning Grenth never had one ether. I never said there were five elements. Balthazar, Dwayna, Melandru and Abaddon rule over the four elements. With Abaddon gone there would need to be a new god to rule over Water. And Grenth is that god.
Quote:
| Also, there are 6 gods. Always have, always will; if a god dies it must be replaced to control that part of the universe/planet/forces or however you prefer to call it that keeps balance. That is also why the gods couldnt kill abaddon. In that perspective, there should even be 6 elements instead of the known 4, to further destroy your argument on elements. |
There are four elements. Four. I never said there were five or six. Here i'll simplify it.
6 gods.
4 rule over the elements, Fire, Water, Earth and Air.
The god who rules over Water is defeated and imprisoned.
There are now 3 gods who rule over elements.
The god of death gets that lost element.
There are now 5 gods. 4 rule over elements.
Gmr Leon
I would say Lyssa also holds domain over an element, Ether, as Konig (Azazel) listed. This is suggested by the relation to Energy Storage in one of her blessings,
Getting back in line with the original question...
I think it's completely viable for Abaddon to have been the God of Hydromancers, Paragons, and Dervishes. Dervishes, in that he was the God of Knowledge, and hence would provide enlightenment regarding his fellow Gods and Goddesses, in short, the scriptures to allow to them praise the Six Gods devoutly. Paragons in that they are known as commanders of the battlefield, which requires tactical and strategic intelligence, intelligence lending itself to knowledge, thus leading to praise of the God of Knowledge.
However, the pitfall that lies in this argument is that then one could attribute all the professions to worshiping Abaddon at one point in time.
Getting back in line with the original question...
I think it's completely viable for Abaddon to have been the God of Hydromancers, Paragons, and Dervishes. Dervishes, in that he was the God of Knowledge, and hence would provide enlightenment regarding his fellow Gods and Goddesses, in short, the scriptures to allow to them praise the Six Gods devoutly. Paragons in that they are known as commanders of the battlefield, which requires tactical and strategic intelligence, intelligence lending itself to knowledge, thus leading to praise of the God of Knowledge.
However, the pitfall that lies in this argument is that then one could attribute all the professions to worshiping Abaddon at one point in time.
BrettM
I think an argument could be made for six "elements". Necromancers also do Dark/Shadow damage, and this was likely Grenth's province before he added Water to his portfolio. That would give us air, earth, fire, water, ether/chaos, dark/shadow.
Konig Des Todes
BrettM, if you go that far, you need to add Holy damage. But those are less of elements of nature as they are aspects of life. There are only five real elements: Air, Earth, Ether, Fire, and Water. Dark, Chaos, and Holy damage would go more under elements, or aspects, of life. And then, we'd have eight.
Hyper Cutter
I assumed Abaddon was the patron god of elementalists, and once the other gods defeated him they each took over an aspect of that profession.
Look at the temple from the Depths of Madness, the Margonites guarding the shrines during the mission. Abaddon's shrine is unguarded, and Margonite Sorcerers are the only core class not present...
Look at the temple from the Depths of Madness, the Margonites guarding the shrines during the mission. Abaddon's shrine is unguarded, and Margonite Sorcerers are the only core class not present...
Konig Des Todes
As Elementalist worship multiple gods, you cannot put them at a single god. Abaddon was the God of Water and Secrets. Not the God of Elements and Secrets.
Charlotte the Harlot
Grenth has been stated as the god of ice since prophecies and its clearly the closest thing to water (water magic is mostly ice based anyways) so I'm not sure he did inherit any power from Abbadon leaving but is instead just the next best thing.
About when did Abbadon's banishment occur and when did the Grenth to Dhuum transition occur? I have no clue but if it were before the gods gave magic to the people then perhaps water elementalists had always prayed to Grenth?
I find the there always being 6 gods things unlikely due to the fact that Dhuum was clearly still present much like Abbadon after their banishment meaning that if Abbadon were still a god so was Dhuum.
About when did Abbadon's banishment occur and when did the Grenth to Dhuum transition occur? I have no clue but if it were before the gods gave magic to the people then perhaps water elementalists had always prayed to Grenth?
I find the there always being 6 gods things unlikely due to the fact that Dhuum was clearly still present much like Abbadon after their banishment meaning that if Abbadon were still a god so was Dhuum.
Konig Des Todes
Abaddon's banashment occured at Year 0 - right before the Exodus. Grenth's overpowerment of Dhuum is unknown.
And, unlike Dhuum, Abaddon was never "killed" and replaced until Nightfall. So saying "if Abaddon is still a god after his banishment, then Dhuum must be too" is incorrectly justified.
And, unlike Dhuum, Abaddon was never "killed" and replaced until Nightfall. So saying "if Abaddon is still a god after his banishment, then Dhuum must be too" is incorrectly justified.
Charlotte the Harlot
Does that mean Abbadon is still somewhere in RoT as well then?
Konig Des Todes
...
Abaddon has been in the RoT. He is now dead - as far as we know (There are theories going around he will pull a Dhuum or that he will take over Kormir from inside via possession).
I think you mean "is Dhuum in the RoT" - in which case, unknown. Possible.
Abaddon has been in the RoT. He is now dead - as far as we know (There are theories going around he will pull a Dhuum or that he will take over Kormir from inside via possession).
I think you mean "is Dhuum in the RoT" - in which case, unknown. Possible.
Charlotte the Harlot
I was under the impression that if Abbadon dies in RoT he would simply return to RoT, I read your thread on spirits and whatnot and understand that this most likely isn't the case. Although its interesting that Dhuum is apparently in the RoT or at least "alive" somewhere.
Free Runner
Abaddon is a god. Gods are not bound by the same rules as mortals - if they are "killed" they dont return to the Realm of Torment or the Underworld - they either disappear or hang onto life in the shadows. Which one Abaddon did is unclear.
Konig Des Todes
Abaddon may in fact return. If he returns in appearance, than he will be a spirit. If he returns through possessing Kormir, a previously highly discussed topic over on GWO, than he will return in her body.
I personally think Abaddon will return as a spirit.
@ Free Runner: I believe you are taking the hanging onto life in the shadows from Dhuum and Menzies (primarily Dhuum). It may very well be that both of those are in fact spirits as is. That would explain why Menzies - a supposed demi-god, who may or may not be immortal - is still alive if he is in fact not immortal. And why Dhuum is still "alive."
I personally think Abaddon will return as a spirit.
@ Free Runner: I believe you are taking the hanging onto life in the shadows from Dhuum and Menzies (primarily Dhuum). It may very well be that both of those are in fact spirits as is. That would explain why Menzies - a supposed demi-god, who may or may not be immortal - is still alive if he is in fact not immortal. And why Dhuum is still "alive."
Free Runner
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin
@ Free Runner: I believe you are taking the hanging onto life in the shadows from Dhuum and Menzies (primarily Dhuum). It may very well be that both of those are in fact spirits as is. That would explain why Menzies - a supposed demi-god, who may or may not be immortal - is still alive if he is in fact not immortal. And why Dhuum is still "alive."
|
Dhuum had his powers taken by Grenth after Grenth destroyed him - yet he is still alive and is powerful enough to command his own forces. Abaddon had his powers taken by Kormir after we defeated him - its unknown as to what his status is as we're only given "his will is broken". His forces have been wiped out after Mallyx's attempt at usurping Kormir.
Anyway what i was saying in that post was that gods are not like mortals. If a mortal dies in the pre-Kormir Realm of Torment they would return to the Realm of Torment due to Abaddons taint. However gods are different from simple mortals - the rules dont apply to them as they are the ones who created these realms in the first place.
Konig Des Todes
I only mentioned Menzies due to the Ravenheart Gloom description where it hints at Menzies hiding in the shadows in the supposed infinite plain.
And of course, being around for so long, he either must have a very long life span, be equally immortal in terms of age only, or a spirit/ghost idea (which is what Dhuum seems to be right now - a "shade" so to speak, not really living but not dead *no I do not mean undead*).
Sorry if my thoughts are incoherent. My current thinking capacity is about 0 to none.
And of course, being around for so long, he either must have a very long life span, be equally immortal in terms of age only, or a spirit/ghost idea (which is what Dhuum seems to be right now - a "shade" so to speak, not really living but not dead *no I do not mean undead*).
Sorry if my thoughts are incoherent. My current thinking capacity is about 0 to none.
draxynnic
The thought strikes me that if Abaddon 'comes back' by posessing Kormir...
...How would we know that it's Abaddon and not Abaddon's ur-predecessor? What if the domain of knowledge is essentially cursed, so that everyone who picks up the mantle will go mad eventually and all each successor can do is hold on for as long as they can?
This could be extended to other domains as well. Maybe Death has a similar issue, with Grenth simply being at a different stage of the life cycle. Maybe Menzies was the elder brother, and Balthazar stepped in when he went around the bend. Maybe Dwayna and Melandru are the only one who's portfolio's are 'safe' (this would match the theory based on them both having wings in some depictions that they're the original gods while the wingless deities... aren't) and that Lyssa isn't known to have a rival just means it was long enough ago that she'll be next to go around the bend?
As they say, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts entirely.
...But I digress.
Going to the original topic: Abaddon probably didn't have his own professions because he was banished not long before magic was set to it's current state, thus setting the professions in, haha, stone. If he had got his own profession, however, I suspect he would have had the Elementalist and possibly the Dervish - while, as Azazel pointed out, he was the god of Water not of the Elements in general, he was also the god of magic and knowledge. It's possible that, while the Monks and Necromancers and Mesmers went to the gods whose portfolios matched with their powers, the Elementalists, lacking such a direct match, may have paid homage to Abaddon first as the god of magic in general.
Note, however, that any god can have members of any profession serving them, the 'patron' professions are just those that they have a special affinity for. So it would still be possible for a fire specialist elementalist to follow Balthazar and so on - however, those that don't specialise in any given element might have followed Abaddon first as the god of magic. The Dervish tags along for a similar reason - the Dervish has bits of each of the Five in their capabilities, but they are, at heart, a profession that mixes magic with warfare. If Abaddon hadn't been banished, they may have split roughly equally between Balthazar (those that favoured fighting more) and Abaddon (those that favoured magic more), rather than the latter group being split between the various gods in the same way as Elementalists.
All that said:
Personally, while all her skills are monster skills, Enemies Must Die does seem like a monster version of Paragoning - except it works directly on the AI of the user's allies rather than giving them a benefit if they perform the specified action as PC paragons do.
...How would we know that it's Abaddon and not Abaddon's ur-predecessor? What if the domain of knowledge is essentially cursed, so that everyone who picks up the mantle will go mad eventually and all each successor can do is hold on for as long as they can?
This could be extended to other domains as well. Maybe Death has a similar issue, with Grenth simply being at a different stage of the life cycle. Maybe Menzies was the elder brother, and Balthazar stepped in when he went around the bend. Maybe Dwayna and Melandru are the only one who's portfolio's are 'safe' (this would match the theory based on them both having wings in some depictions that they're the original gods while the wingless deities... aren't) and that Lyssa isn't known to have a rival just means it was long enough ago that she'll be next to go around the bend?
As they say, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts entirely.
...But I digress.
Going to the original topic: Abaddon probably didn't have his own professions because he was banished not long before magic was set to it's current state, thus setting the professions in, haha, stone. If he had got his own profession, however, I suspect he would have had the Elementalist and possibly the Dervish - while, as Azazel pointed out, he was the god of Water not of the Elements in general, he was also the god of magic and knowledge. It's possible that, while the Monks and Necromancers and Mesmers went to the gods whose portfolios matched with their powers, the Elementalists, lacking such a direct match, may have paid homage to Abaddon first as the god of magic in general.
Note, however, that any god can have members of any profession serving them, the 'patron' professions are just those that they have a special affinity for. So it would still be possible for a fire specialist elementalist to follow Balthazar and so on - however, those that don't specialise in any given element might have followed Abaddon first as the god of magic. The Dervish tags along for a similar reason - the Dervish has bits of each of the Five in their capabilities, but they are, at heart, a profession that mixes magic with warfare. If Abaddon hadn't been banished, they may have split roughly equally between Balthazar (those that favoured fighting more) and Abaddon (those that favoured magic more), rather than the latter group being split between the various gods in the same way as Elementalists.
All that said:
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Originally Posted by Sin City Gamer
Varesh was a Dervish prior to her transformation into a Margonite, and even then other than carrying a spear, she showed no signs of actually being a Paragon. (see the talk page on the link you provided for a breakdown of that argument)
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Konig Des Todes
draxynnic, I suggest you look into this thread over on GWO. I don't think what you stated was even thought of over there and would be a grand addition to the discussion - although it has died down now.
Kerwyn Nasilan
Scythe. Discuss.
Konig Des Todes
Two words: Concept Art
While worth looking at, not exactly proof of anything. It's as viable as Paragon due to Commander Varesh and Lord Jadoth.
While worth looking at, not exactly proof of anything. It's as viable as Paragon due to Commander Varesh and Lord Jadoth.
Disciple Of Dwaynah
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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin
What is considered elements are opinionated really, there are 4 "positive" elements, but depending on where you go you can see up to 9 elements. Those being:
Four Core: Air Water Earth Fire Additional: Metal (usually in Asian cultures) Rock Ice Ether (the most universal "5th element") Time |
I know your other statements nearly ruled this out but I think it's still worth stating; A Whisper's Informant says something along the lines of the Margonites arrive with demons and use dark rituals, leaving behind a trail of death. So it is possible that death is considered another element also, but that would mean the same would have to go for life (Dwayna?)
Sorry if this is a bit off the current topic, but I thought it was worth bringing back.
Free Runner
I'm not sure why this element thing has been dragged on - someone misunderstood what i was saying - That Dhuum probably never had Water therefore nether did Grenth until Abaddons fall - and thought i was actually saying that Dhuum had Ice, when Grenth defeated him, meaning Grenth had Ice when Abaddon had Water - 5 elements with one of them being done twice over. So i'm not exactly sure why everyones jumped in with all the elements.
As for the Paragon argument with Varesh and Jadoth - i already said somewere in this thread that Paragons are the natural commanders. Commander Varesh speaks for itself - Jadoth was Abaddons best tactician so making him a Paragon is only logical. It does not mean that Abaddon ruled over Paragons.
The same thing goes for Dervishes - i said that Kayhet was a dervish follower of Abaddon and teacher to Varesh who was also a Dervish. I also brought up the art on the prerelease cd which Kerwyn Nasilan posted. But in the end none of that means he ruled over Dervishes.
As was mentioned by someone in this thread, if we looked closly we could draw lines to every profession.
As for the Paragon argument with Varesh and Jadoth - i already said somewere in this thread that Paragons are the natural commanders. Commander Varesh speaks for itself - Jadoth was Abaddons best tactician so making him a Paragon is only logical. It does not mean that Abaddon ruled over Paragons.
The same thing goes for Dervishes - i said that Kayhet was a dervish follower of Abaddon and teacher to Varesh who was also a Dervish. I also brought up the art on the prerelease cd which Kerwyn Nasilan posted. But in the end none of that means he ruled over Dervishes.
As was mentioned by someone in this thread, if we looked closly we could draw lines to every profession.
Konig Des Todes
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Originally Posted by Disciple Of Dwaynah
Just for reference, Time could have been the "5th" or "6th element". Apparently before EoTN became an expansion, they were planning on putting in some kind of profession with time control, which might follow abaddon? Also, one of his skills inflicts daze condition, which is sort of a form of time control in the sense that it slows down cast time, and another that removes stances which would slow down movement and attack speed but that's a bit far fetched. Margonite's carry Abaddon's chosen which prevents health loss for 10 seconds, which could be taken as a pause in time sort of. Don't know if that's relevant at all, considering I don't get into this at all, just throwing it out there.
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| I know your other statements nearly ruled this out but I think it's still worth stating; A Whisper's Informant says something along the lines of the Margonites arrive with demons and use dark rituals, leaving behind a trail of death. So it is possible that death is considered another element also, but that would mean the same would have to go for life (Dwayna?) |
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Originally Posted by Free Runner
I'm not sure why this element thing has been dragged on - someone misunderstood what i was saying - That Dhuum probably never had Water therefore nether did Grenth until Abaddons fall - and thought i was actually saying that Dhuum had Ice, when Grenth defeated him, meaning Grenth had Ice when Abaddon had Water - 5 elements with one of them being done twice over. So i'm not exactly sure why everyones jumped in with all the elements.
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As for the Paragon argument with Varesh and Jadoth - i already said somewere in this thread that Paragons are the natural commanders. Commander Varesh speaks for itself - Jadoth was Abaddons best tactician so making him a Paragon is only logical. It does not mean that Abaddon ruled over Paragons. The same thing goes for Dervishes - i said that Kayhet was a dervish follower of Abaddon and teacher to Varesh who was also a Dervish. I also brought up the art on the prerelease cd which Kerwyn Nasilan posted. But in the end none of that means he ruled over Dervishes. As was mentioned by someone in this thread, if we looked closly we could draw lines to every profession. |
Nathaniel (Was 'ere)
Dervish. Maybe when Abbadon fell the Dervishes began to link themselves to the Five True Gods - (assuming Grenth took over before Abbadon fell) - under the impression that if any of the other Gods became corrupt then they could dis-associate themselves with that God.
Jadoth could simply have been a Paragon beforehand and chosen to keep his profession after becoming a Margonite, the fact he was a Paragon proves nothing. The same with Commander Varesh.
If they had brought out Chronomancer then they may have associated that profession with Menzies - the usual Melee vs Magic thing, considering, before Grenth, Dhuum was the patron God of Water Elementalists.
I think you should consider Holy, Chaos, Dark damage etc. There's little info on Menzies and the Great Dwarf may have had a profession at one point? Maybe the secrets of that profession were simply lost or shunned etc. Maybe the Tome of Rubicon isn't full and would have provided the Dwarves with that sort of information (Maybe making our fight against the Destroyers much easier as we wouldn't have had to recruit the Asura, Norn and the Ebon Vanguard if we had an uber Dwarf profession. =P
Jadoth could simply have been a Paragon beforehand and chosen to keep his profession after becoming a Margonite, the fact he was a Paragon proves nothing. The same with Commander Varesh.
If they had brought out Chronomancer then they may have associated that profession with Menzies - the usual Melee vs Magic thing, considering, before Grenth, Dhuum was the patron God of Water Elementalists.
I think you should consider Holy, Chaos, Dark damage etc. There's little info on Menzies and the Great Dwarf may have had a profession at one point? Maybe the secrets of that profession were simply lost or shunned etc. Maybe the Tome of Rubicon isn't full and would have provided the Dwarves with that sort of information (Maybe making our fight against the Destroyers much easier as we wouldn't have had to recruit the Asura, Norn and the Ebon Vanguard if we had an uber Dwarf profession. =P
Spike Stritter
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Originally Posted by Rick Thene
Also, that excerpt from Abbadon's Scripture says he gifted Jadoth with magic, and that magic allowed Jadoth to cause storms and sink ships at sea.
For that, my vote goes to Water Eles. That of course raises the question as to why Jadoth is a Paragon now... |
P/E
draxynnic
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Originally Posted by Nathaniel (Was 'ere)
If they had brought out Chronomancer then they may have associated that profession with Menzies - the usual Melee vs Magic thing, considering, before Grenth, Dhuum was the patron God of Water Elementalists.
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Dhuum, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have any association with water whatsoever. From memory, for instance, none of his servants use water magic at all - his Elementalists, such as Terrorwebs and Wrathful Storms, are predominantly fire-users.
Nathaniel (Was 'ere)
Ah, OK, I mis-read the page. I thought that Grenth gained all of his powers from Dhuum.