I had [Victorious Sweep] equipped and my E-friends told me that I had to replace it for [Eremite's attack]. When I asked why, they said because PvX saids so and they couldn't explain any further. If I had the two option and had to pick one, why would eremite's attack be more preferred?
Victorious sweep can do up to 33 damage and gain up to 83 Health but eremites attack is anywhere from 10 damage ~ 30 damage, depending on how many mob is present. I do see the adjacent but when I use H/H, most are scattered so I don't get the benefit of it.
Eremite's attack also has a cast time but victorious sweep has none. I'm wondering why I should follow PvX and use eremite's attack over it.
Eremite's Attack vs. Victorious Sweep
Forgotton200
Nightmares Hammer
Tyla
I prefer Eremites because it allows me to put more damage within a small window of time.
zelgadissan
Personally I generally use Victorious. I never seem to trigger the extra bonus on Eremite's - my positioning apparently sucks with him. Also, since I'm almost always under IAS whether it be Drunken Master or Heart of Fury, the attack time isn't near as bad.
I'm not arguing against Eremite's - it's awesome, and it's honestly the better choice due to activation time - but I personally like having the two strong hits of Victorious and Wild Blow, then I have Mystic for my quick hit. I don't mind being inferior to enjoy how I play, at least on a PvE standpoint.
I'm not arguing against Eremite's - it's awesome, and it's honestly the better choice due to activation time - but I personally like having the two strong hits of Victorious and Wild Blow, then I have Mystic for my quick hit. I don't mind being inferior to enjoy how I play, at least on a PvE standpoint.
ac1inferno
[[Eremite's Attack] would be used in PvP for the faster hit, which means a lot. Not so much in PvE, so you can stick to [[Victorious Sweep] for the bigger hit.
Truegen
Stick with Victorious Sweep man...ac1inferno makes the main point that Eremites = Fail outside of some sort of PvP spike skill. RARELY will you ever be able to achieve max damage on Eremites because any mob you take on that has enough enemies will more than likely not be adjacent to you to take the beating
Victorious = Consistent Damage + Health Gain = Win
Victorious = Consistent Damage + Health Gain = Win
MegaVolti
Go with the 3/4s attacks. They allow you to attack in 3/4s as opposed to 1.75s with normal scythe attacks. It's a huge gain in DPS and always worth bringing.
-Lotus-
Victorious sweep puts down some ridiculous bonus damage and has a self heal. eremit's adds a little to a spike, not much to overall DPS really.
I would go with victorious.
I would go with victorious.
Snow Bunny
Victorious automatically reaches the amount of damage Eremite's can in optimal circumstances.
Considering this is PvE, everyone advocating Eremite's is wrong.
Considering this is PvE, everyone advocating Eremite's is wrong.
Forgotton200
I read everything and decided to stick with this,
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac1inferno
Quote:
[[Eremite's Attack] would be used in PvP for the faster hit, which means a lot. Not so much in PvE, so you can stick to [[Victorious Sweep] for the bigger hit.
Thanks for the help everyone.
Nightmares Hammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotton200
I read everything and decided to stick with this,
Thanks for the help everyone. Why did I already know you'd take the bad advice?
Thanks for the help everyone. Why did I already know you'd take the bad advice?
Bowstring Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmares Hammer
Why did I already know you'd take the bad advice?
Victorious is bad in PvE? -.-
Honestly go with victorious because mobs in pve tend to scatter from aoe.
Honestly go with victorious because mobs in pve tend to scatter from aoe.
Forgotton200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmares Hammer
Why did I already know you'd take the bad advice?
I took it for the lulz.
Nightmares Hammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
Victorious is bad in PvE? -.-
Honestly go with victorious because mobs in pve tend to scatter from aoe. It's not about scatter. It's about DPS.
Honestly go with victorious because mobs in pve tend to scatter from aoe. It's not about scatter. It's about DPS.
Mr Emu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmares Hammer
It's not about scatter. It's about DPS.
And there's a decent chance Vic will have the higher DPS, almost guaranteed with an IAS
Snow Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmares Hammer
It's not about scatter. It's about DPS.
Victorious has higher DPS.
Eremite's from any standpoint pve-wise is superior.
Eremite's from any standpoint pve-wise is superior.
Cebe
Eremite's came to fame because of Avatar of Lyssa; being able to strike a foe in quick succession means you might be able to hit more during the cast time of skills, either that or you can use your skills "like interrupts" and try to hit during the casting of a skill.
For general PvE play outside Avatar of Lyssa builds, I've seen no need to take Eremite's over Victorious. You may not need the health return from Victorious, but it's there if you do, not to mention hitting 3 foes means you gain up to 3 lots of health. As previously stated the bonus damage from Victorious Sweep is unconditional, the only downside to the skill is the fact it is no quicker than usual.
I always felt that Victorious Sweep being used under an IAS is still better than Eremite's Attack under most circumstances. The only downside to hitting slightly slower in PvE I can see if you may be more prone to interrupts such as Distracting Shot or Cry of Frustration, but in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing to worry about.
For general PvE play outside Avatar of Lyssa builds, I've seen no need to take Eremite's over Victorious. You may not need the health return from Victorious, but it's there if you do, not to mention hitting 3 foes means you gain up to 3 lots of health. As previously stated the bonus damage from Victorious Sweep is unconditional, the only downside to the skill is the fact it is no quicker than usual.
I always felt that Victorious Sweep being used under an IAS is still better than Eremite's Attack under most circumstances. The only downside to hitting slightly slower in PvE I can see if you may be more prone to interrupts such as Distracting Shot or Cry of Frustration, but in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing to worry about.
Sirius-NZ
An argument could be made for reduced attack-time skills like Eremite's Attack even without Lyssa if you needed to make a spike quickly... but this being PvE, it isn't really going to matter.
MegaVolti
Reducing attack time DOES matter in PvE. Stop giving crappy advice pls :/
Eremite's Attack is a free 60% IAS for one attack. It just is totally awesome and can not be beaten by any other scythe attack.
That being said ... in most bars it is no problem at all to bring both 3/4s attacks AND Victorious Sweep. Those 3 attacks and an Avatar are the best start for good Derv builds (plus the usual enchs).
Eremite's Attack is a free 60% IAS for one attack. It just is totally awesome and can not be beaten by any other scythe attack.
That being said ... in most bars it is no problem at all to bring both 3/4s attacks AND Victorious Sweep. Those 3 attacks and an Avatar are the best start for good Derv builds (plus the usual enchs).
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaVolti
Quote: Originally Posted by MegaVolti
Eremite's Attack is a free 60% IAS for one attack. It just is totally awesome and can not be beaten by any other scythe attack.
One skill, 60% faster, every 4 seconds doesn't seem that hot to me.Quote:
I decided to carry out a few experiments at the Master of Damage though I don't know how useful these are in the grand scheme of things.|
Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ
An argument could be made for reduced attack-time skills like Eremite's Attack even without Lyssa if you needed to make a spike quickly... but this being PvE, it isn't really going to matter.
Emboldened for emphasis. PvE isn't about spiking individuals, it's about how fast you can slaughter massive herds of monsters; at least so this forum would make out.
Snow Bunny
Victorious does more damage automatically than eremite's does with all conditions filled.
Stop sucking.
Earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
I prefer Eremites because it allows me to put more damage within a small window of time.
This. Eremite's has a faster attack speed, but who cares really? It has the same recharge as Victorious, and does less damage. It also costs the same.
Eremite's has no advantage over Victorious in PvE. -Lotus-
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaVolti
fail test
first. you assumed maximum damage from eremite's when this just doesn't happen that often.
second. you assume players are using their skills correctly. this doesn't happen in PvE. People are either to stupid or dont care enough to wait til just after an attck lands to throw an attack skill, avoiding the interval between swings.
Darkside
I was going to skip this thread since the op already said he figured out what he was going to do but after reading some of the stupid comments posted here I was compelled to reply.
First off when your friend said "because it says so on PvX" you should have just ignored him from that point on since anything else after that is going to be full of stupid. Second if I teamed up with a dervish that had either eremite's attack or Victorious sweep on their bar I would be pleased because they are both great skills. I don't really consider one better then the other because they have different applications. Victorious is a nice nice way to deal good damage and maybe heal yourself while eremites is a great spike skill. Someone stated that eremites was garbage is PvE because its all about how fast a mob goes down...well the faster you take down one enemy or multiple ones (if they happen to be adjacent while you swing) the faster the mob dies. So saying a spike skill is useless is just dumb. MegaVolti
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
first. you assumed maximum damage from eremite's when this just doesn't happen that often.
second. you assume players are using their skills correctly. this doesn't happen in PvE. People are either to stupid or dont care enough to wait til just after an attck lands to throw an attack skill, avoiding the interval between swings. Seriously, when is a Dervish ever running around with less then 3 enchantments? You always have at least 2 of your own, most of the time 3, and the additional 2-3 Monk enchantments that always fly around in battles. The condition is almost always met, nothing wrong about that assumption. And yea, if people are too stupid to use their skills then bringing any skill is pointless. Let's just auto-attack from now on because nobody knows how to use stuff ... The fact remains that if you have to chose between Victorious Sweep and Eremite's Attack, for DPS Eremite's is the better choice. But as I said, both are great skills and most good Dervish bars will just bring both.
trankle
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaVolti
Auto-attack will get you 25 average damage (plus criticals, which work the same for both attacks and are therefor neglected). Using [[Victorious Sweep], in 10 seconds you will attack 5 times, two of which are with the attack skill, resulting in 3*25+2*54 = 183 damage Using [[Eremite's Attack], in 10 seconds you will attack 6 times, two of which are with the attack skill, resulting in 4*25+2*55 = 210 damage |
Just make sure you got orders support for infinite energy so spamming those is not an issue.
Using Eremite's Attack under Heart of Fury for about a minute (keeping Heart of Fury up as much as possible and auto attacking whilst using Eremite's on recharge) gave 41 DPS.
Using Victorious Sweep under Heart of Fury for about a minute (keeping Heart of Fury up as much as possible and auto attacking whilst using Victorious on recharge) gave 42 DPS.
So, purely on the data given above, the skills alone are comparable in terms of DPS. Of course, Eremite's fluctuates somewhat depending on whether there are adjacent foes or not, but then Victorious has the health gain.
I then tested using the following: [Heart of Fury][Aura of Holy Might (Luxon)@8][Mystic Sweep][Zealous Sweep] and either [Eremite's Attack (PvE)] or [Victorious Sweep]. I spammed skills on recharge, prioritising Eremite's and Victorious, and obtained the following (Master of Damage was attacked for about a minute on each occaision):
DPS for build with Eremite's Attack: 64.
DPS for build with Victorious Sweep: 73.
Despite Victorious is still higher, there's still not a huge amount in it, and certainly does not validate the claim that Eremite's gives you a "huge gain in DPS".
Yes, Taking all three is always nice, but the Thread is about one versus the other. Given all the facts I simply cannot concede that given the choice between Eremites or Victorious, Eremite's is more worthwhile every time.
I think the Conclusion needs to be that neither skill is vastly better than the other, and they each have different bonuses; If you want the health gain and don't want to concern yourself with conditional damage then Victorious is pretty good, If you like to try to get as many enemies adjacent to you as possible (such as when using Splinter Weapon) and like to think that hitting quicker is doing you a massive favour then go Eremite's. If you have two spare slots - take both.
Sirius-NZ
I still manage to time Eremite's/Mystic properly for boosting number of attacks even when I'm being lazy and don't have Lyssa up or am not aiming for skill activations. It's not really hard - you just start one right after a previous skill activation or during the middle of a swing.
That said I think the previous post sums up the issue fairly well. Whether it's a particularly important debate I don't even know!
That said I think the previous post sums up the issue fairly well. Whether it's a particularly important debate I don't even know!
Sirius-NZ
It really depends on your build; some aren't as enchant-heavy as others, but if you're expecting to maintain 2 or more enchants all the time, mystic probably has precedence. Whether you take both depends quite a bit on how much bar space you have left, but as always if you can you should. I don't use Victorious Sweep that much I have to admit - usually substitute Wild Blow for it instead - but it's a good third attack skill if you don't need stance removal.
MegaVolti
A little off topic but imho the "depends on the build" problem actually isn't really a problem.
A Dervish just has to bring an Avatar. Why? Because A/D is better at anything a Dervish can do without Avatars. A/D just do so much more damage with scythes, it simply doesn't make much sense to use a scythe elite on a Dervish (because the A/D could do that, too - only better).
So there are Avatars. Plus AotHM and Eternal, some IAS is also important. So the default bar leaves 4 free slots. The best skills for that are, as mentioned above, [[Mystic Sweep], [[Eremite's Attack] and [[Victorious Sweep]. As 4th it's either [[Faithful Intervention] if no orders support is present or [[Chilling Victory] if orders support makes you have unlimited mana. [[Patient Spirit] is also awesome for gaining mana, monk heroes should bring it. Can of cause be switched for stance removal ([[Wild Blow]) if needed or some other stuff for the specific area.
Sadly I don't see much room for any deviations from that scheme without either losing efficiency or being inferior to a scythe-Assassin.
A Dervish just has to bring an Avatar. Why? Because A/D is better at anything a Dervish can do without Avatars. A/D just do so much more damage with scythes, it simply doesn't make much sense to use a scythe elite on a Dervish (because the A/D could do that, too - only better).
So there are Avatars. Plus AotHM and Eternal, some IAS is also important. So the default bar leaves 4 free slots. The best skills for that are, as mentioned above, [[Mystic Sweep], [[Eremite's Attack] and [[Victorious Sweep]. As 4th it's either [[Faithful Intervention] if no orders support is present or [[Chilling Victory] if orders support makes you have unlimited mana. [[Patient Spirit] is also awesome for gaining mana, monk heroes should bring it. Can of cause be switched for stance removal ([[Wild Blow]) if needed or some other stuff for the specific area.
Sadly I don't see much room for any deviations from that scheme without either losing efficiency or being inferior to a scythe-Assassin.
Burst Cancel
The A/D argument is unpersuasive on two grounds:
1) MSDB >> A/D, especially in HM where build might actually matter. So if you're A/*, A/D isn't a rational option to begin with.
2) A/Ds don't get access to Wild Blow or SY!.
I'd also argue that unless you're playing some variation of tank 'n spank, you're vastly overestimating the frequency of meeting the condition for Eremite's. The fact that you want your attacks to always hit three enemies doesn't mean it actually happens.
1) MSDB >> A/D, especially in HM where build might actually matter. So if you're A/*, A/D isn't a rational option to begin with.
2) A/Ds don't get access to Wild Blow or SY!.
I'd also argue that unless you're playing some variation of tank 'n spank, you're vastly overestimating the frequency of meeting the condition for Eremite's. The fact that you want your attacks to always hit three enemies doesn't mean it actually happens.
-Lotus-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
The A/D argument is unpersuasive on two grounds:
1) MSDB >> A/D, especially in HM where build might actually matter. So if you're A/*, A/D isn't a rational option to begin with.
2) A/Ds don't get access to Wild Blow or SY!.
I'd also argue that unless you're playing some variation of tank 'n spank, you're vastly overestimating the frequency of meeting the condition for Eremite's. The fact that you want your attacks to always hit three enemies doesn't mean it actually happens. that's what i was about to say....
1) MSDB >> A/D, especially in HM where build might actually matter. So if you're A/*, A/D isn't a rational option to begin with.
2) A/Ds don't get access to Wild Blow or SY!.
I'd also argue that unless you're playing some variation of tank 'n spank, you're vastly overestimating the frequency of meeting the condition for Eremite's. The fact that you want your attacks to always hit three enemies doesn't mean it actually happens. that's what i was about to say....
Marverick
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
second. you assume players are using their skills correctly. this doesn't happen in PvE. People are either to stupid or dont care enough to wait til just after an attck lands to throw an attack skill, avoiding the interval between swings.
And 3 adjacent enemies is not that rare. This is adjacent to you, not adjacent to you and your target.
Quote:
|
whilst using Eremite's on recharge
That's where you fail. You use Eremite's directly after an attack to maximize its quick activation time. You don't use it on recharge.
shoyon456
I prefer Victorious Sweep over Etermite's for a couple reasons:
Victorious has no condition for the + damage. Although you will generally hit 3 enemies at a time in PvE (which is where I spend most of my time), this is not always the case. Victorious, with a decent scythe mastery rank, gives + 60 something health per hit. If you hit 3 enemies with Etermite's, you get a nice 1/4 sec +27 damage attack. However, hitting 3 enemies with Victorious gives about that same damage PLUS around 180 health. In short, if you're going for a quick kill, then take Etermite's. But, if you are going for sustainable damage and health, take Victorious. Please note: This is for Derv Primaries. I consider the A/D an abomination that needs to get the nerf bat 10x over.
Marverick
Victorious Sweep as a health gain.... ick
First of all, enemies in PvE have abnormally large amounts of health. This means that in order to get the heath gain, you must be near full health and the enemy must be near death. In that situation, do you really need the health? Mystic Vigor combined with quick activation attacks and Heart of Fury is usually sufficient self-healing. Victorious Sweep isn't needed. |
