Changing the Henchmen skillbars

Schmerdro

Schmerdro

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Canada

N/

All of the following builds are supposed to be simple (something that the AI can use), flexible, and generally stay the same way as they were made by Arena-Net. Each build has skills only from its primary profession, a Resurrection Signet, and at least 3 skills from its respective campaign (except in the case of Eye of the North, where the minimum is just 1 skill). Also, every build must use skills that are either Core or specific to the respective campaign, except in the case of Eye of the North, where henchmen can have any skills. Lastly, I made one exception that every Blood Henchman has Blood Ritual even though it is available only in Prophecies; the reasoning is simply that Blood Ritual is very important and Henchmen use it very well.

Any feedback is very welcome as I will update this post either if some skills are changed or if a consensus is reached on a certain skill change. Just please keep in mind that these are NOT hero builds, they are henchman builds and I would prefer to follow the skill guideline which I described earlier.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!





Prophecies


Stefan, Sword:[build pve prof=W Sword=11+1+1 Strength=10+1 Tactics=10+1][Hundred Blades][Sever Artery][Galrath Slash][Power Attack][Riposte][Rush][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Little Thom, Axe:[build pve prof=W Axe=11+1+1 Strength=10+1 Tactics=10+1][Eviscerate][Disrupting Chop][Executioner's Strike][Cyclone Axe][To the Limit!][Rush][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Devona, Hammer:[build pve prof=W Hammer=11+1+1 Strength=10+1 Tactics=10+1][Earth Shaker][Crude Swing][Crushing Blow][Counter Blow][Mighty Blow][Rush][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Aidan/Reyna, Bow:[build pve prof=R Expertise=11+1+1 Marksmanship=11+1 Wilderness=8+1][Incendiary Arrows][Distracting Shot][Penetrating Attack][Ignite Arrows][Troll Unguent][Antidote Signet][Favorable Winds][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Alesia/Mhenlo, Healer:[build pve prof=Mo Healing=12+1+1 Divine=12+1][Word of Healing][Dwayna's Kiss][Signet of Devotion][Vigorous Spirit][Healing Seed][Divine Healing][Remove Hex][Restore Life][/build]
Lina, Protector:[build pve prof=Mo Protection=12+1+1 Divine=12+1 Healing=3][Protective Spirit][Aura of Faith][Shielding Hands][Signet of Devotion][Aegis][Divine Healing][Mend Ailment][Restore Life][/build]

Claude/Eve, Blood:[build pve prof=N Blood=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Blood Ritual][Soul Leech][Barbed Signet][Vampiric Gaze][Shadow Strike][Mark of Subversion][Strip Enchantment][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Dunham, Domination:[build pve prof=Me Domination=12+1+1 Inspiration=11+1 Fast=6+1][Wastrel's Worry][Power Drain][Empathy][Shatter Hex][Chaos Storm][Drain Enchantment][Mantra of Recall][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Orion/Cynn, Fire:[build pve prof=E Fire=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Rodgort's Invocation][Searing Heat][Incendiary Bonds][Fireball][Elemental Attunement][Fire Attunement][Aura of Restoration][Resurrection Signet][/build]







Factions


Lukas/Seaguard Eli, Sword:[build pve prof=W Sword=12+1+1 Strength=8+1 Tactics=10+1][Dragon Slash][Standing Slash][Sun and Moon Slash][Tiger Stance]["Shields Up!"]["For Great Justice!"][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Talon, Sword:[build pve prof=W Sword=11+1+1 Strength=10+1 Tactics=10+1][Quivering Blade][Silverwing Slash][Sun and Moon Slash][Tiger Stance]["Watch Yourself!"]["For Great Justice!"][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Devona, Hammer:[build pve prof=W Hammer=11+1+1 Strength=10+1 Tactics=10+1][Enraged Smash][Counter Blow][Mighty Blow][Yeti Smash][Tiger Stance]["For Great Justice!"][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Aidan/Zho/Yuun, Bow:[build pve prof=R Expertise=11+1+1 Marksmanship=11+1 Wilderness=8+1][Distracting Shot][Melandru's Shot][Sundering Attack][Needling Shot][Read the Wind][Troll Unguent][Antidote Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Aurora, Beastmaster:[build pve prof=R Expertise=12+1 Beastmastery=12+1+1][Poisonous Bite][Savage Pounce][Pounce][Bestial Mauling][Heal as One][Call of Haste][Charm Animal][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Daeman, Interrupter:[build pve prof=R Expertise=11+1+1 Marksmanship=11+1 Wilderness=8+1][Broad Head Arrow][Needling Shot][Sundering Attack][Apply Poison][Troll Unguent][Antidote Signet][Favorable Winds][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Danika/Jamei/Sister Tai, Healer:[build pve prof=Mo Healing=12+1+1 Divine=12+1][Boon Signet][Signet of Rejuvenation][Healing Seed][Gift of Health][Dwayna's Sorrow][Heaven's Delight][Deny Hexes][Resurrection Chant][/build]
Karl/Gita, Protector:[build pve prof=Mo Protection=12+1+1 Divine=12+1 Healing=3][Life Sheath][Spirit Bond][Shielding Hands][Signet of Devotion][Aegis][Heaven's Delight][Deny Hexes][Resurrection Chant][/build]

Eve, Blood:[build pve prof=N Blood=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Blood Ritual][Icy Veins][Vampiric Gaze][Vampiric Swarm][Jaundiced Gaze][Lifebane Strike][Strip Enchantment][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Brutus, Blood:[build pve prof=N Blood=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Vampiric Spirit][Vampiric Gaze][Vampiric Swarm][Dark Pact][Jaundiced Gaze][Strip Enchantment][Blood Bond][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Sheena/Su, Death:[build pve prof=N Death=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Discord][Bitter Chill][Deathly Swarm][Rising Bile][Putrid Explosion][Gaze of Contempt][Taste of Pain][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Erys Vasburg, Domination:[build pve prof=Me Domination=12+1+1 Inspiration=11+1 Fast=6+1][Power Leech][Power Drain][Drain Enchantment][Complicate][Overload][Empathy][Shatter Hex][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Lo Sha/Hala, Illusion:[build pve prof=Me Illusion=12+1+1 Inspiration=11+1 Fast=6+1][Power Leech][Power Drain][Drain Enchantment][Clumsiness][Arcane Conundrum][Conjure Nightmare][Accumulated Pain][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Cynn/Argo, Fire:[build pve prof=E Fire=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Teinai's Heat][Breath of Fire][Meteor][Fireball][Energy Boon][Fire Attunement][Aura of Restoration][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Vhang, Air:[build pve prof=E Air=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Shock Arrow][Lightning Orb][Lightning Hammer][Energy Boon][Enervating Charge][Air Attunement][Aura of Restoration][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Kai Ying, Earth:[build pve prof=E Earth=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Ward Against Melee][Unsteady Ground][Churning Earth][Dragon's Stomp][Earth Attunement][Aura of Restoration][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Emi/Panaku/Mai, Disruptor:[build pve prof=A Dagger=11+1+1 Shadow=10+1 Critical=10+1][Beguiling Haze][Jagged Strike][Wild Strike][Critical Strike][Heart of Shadow][Shadow Refuge][Return][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Nika, Tank:[build pve prof=A Dagger=11+1+1 Shadow=10+1 Critical=10+1][Flashing Blades][Jagged Strike][Wild Strike][Critical Strike][Way of Perfection][Shadow Refuge][Return][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Aeson/Gai, Healer:[build pve prof=Rt Restoration=12+1+1 Spawning=12+1][Soothing Memories][Spirit Light][Mend Body and Soul][Weapon of Warding][Life][Recuperation][Attuned Was Songkai][Flesh of My Flesh][/build]
Chiyo, Healer:[build pve prof=Rt Communing=11+1+1 Spawning=10+1 Restoration=10+1][Soothing Memories][Protective Was Kaolai][Weapon of Shadow][Union][Shadowsong][Ritual Lord][Boon of Creation][Flesh of My Flesh][/build]





Nightfall


Devona, Hammer:[build pve prof=W Hammer=12+1+1 Strength=12+1][Enraging Charge][Magehunter Strike][Counter Blow][Counterattack][Mighty Blow][Flail][Lion's Comfort][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Aidan, Bow:[build pve prof=R Expertise=11+1+1 Marksmanship=11+1 Wilderness=8+1][Savage Shot][Crossfire][Arcing Shot][Expert's Dexterity][Read the Wind][Troll Unguent][Antidote Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Mhenlo, Healer:[build pve prof=Mo Healing=12+1+1 Divine=12+1][Words of Comfort][Orison of Healing][Signet of Devotion][Healing Seed][Watchful Healing][Healer's Boon][Remove Hex][Renew Life][/build]
Kihm, Protector:[build pve prof=Mo Protection=12+1+1 Divine=12+1 Healing=3][Zealous Benediction][Protective Spirit][Shield of Absorption][Shielding Hands][Dismiss Condition][Signet of Devotion][Aegis][Renew Life][/build]

Eve, Blood:[build pve prof=N Blood=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Blood Ritual][Signet of Sorrow][Vampiric Gaze][Blood of the Aggressor][Grenth's Balance][Strip Enchantment][Signet of Lost Souls][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Odurra, Domination:[build pve prof=Me Domination=12+1+1 Inspiration=11+1 Fast=6+1][Power Drain][Drain Enchantment][Cry of Frustration][Visions of Regret][Empathy][Mistrust][Web of Disruption][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Cynn, Fire:[build pve prof=E Fire=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Glyph of Restoration][Savannah Heat][Liquid Flame][Fireball][Meteor][Fire Storm][Fire Attunement][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Herta, Earth:[build pve prof=E Earth=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Glyph of Restoration][Ward Against Melee][Sandstorm][Ebon Hawk][Stoning][Glowstone][Earth Attunement][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Sogolon, Motivation:[build pve prof=P Leadership=10+1 Spear=11+1 Motivation=10+1+1][Spear of Lightning][Merciless Spear][Song of Purification][Chorus of Restoration][Signet of Synergy][Ballad of Restoration][Aria of Restoration][Signet of Return][/build]

Gehraz, Earth:[build pve prof=D Scythe=11+1+1 Mysticism=11+1 Earth=8+1][Crippling Sweep][Reaper's Sweep][Mystic Sweep][Armor of Sanctity][Mystic Regeneration][Heart of Fury][Faithful Intervention][Resurrection Signet][/build]





Eye of the North


Devona, Hammer:[build pve prof=W Hammer=11+1+1 Strength=10+1 Tactics=10+1][Enraging Charge]["None Shall Pass!"][Backbreaker][Bull's Strike][Pulverizing Smash][Counter Blow][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Talon, Sword:[build pve prof=W Sword=12+1+1 Strength=12+1][Distracting Blow][Crippling Slash][Knee Cutter][Gash][Silverwing Slash][Tiger Stance][Lion's Comfort][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Aidan, Bow:[build pve prof=R Expertise=11+1+1 Marksmanship=11+1 Wilderness=8+1][Barrage][Volley][Distracting Shot][Lightning Reflexes][Favorable Winds][Troll Unguent][Antidote Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Zho, Interrupt:[build pve prof=R Expertise=11+1+1 Marksmanship=11+1 Wilderness=8+1][Broad Head Arrow][Distracting Shot][Penetrating Attack][Rapid Fire][Favorable Winds][Troll Unguent][Antidote Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Mhenlo, Healer:[build pve prof=Mo Healing=12+1+1 Divine=12+1][Word of Healing][Patient Spirit][Signet of Rejuvenation][Healing Seed][Vigorous Spirit][Divine Healing][Cure Hex][Resurrection Chant][/build]
Lina, Protector:[build pve prof=Mo Protection=12+1+1 Divine=12+1 Healing=3][Peace and Harmony][Protective Spirit][Shield of Absorption][Shielding Hands][Aura of Stability][Aegis][Heaven's Delight][Resurrection Chant][/build]

Eve, Blood:[build pve prof=N Blood=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Blood Ritual][Icy Veins][Signet of Sorrow][Vampiric Gaze][Blood of the Aggressor][Foul Feast][Strip Enchantment][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Lo Sha, Illusion:[build pve prof=Me Illusion=12+1+1 Inspiration=11+1 Fast=6+1][Tease][Drain Enchantment][Power Drain][Clumsiness][Wandering Eye][Arcane Conundrum][Accumulated Pain][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Cynn, Fire:[build pve prof=E Fire=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Savannah Heat][Searing Heat][Teinai's Heat][Liquid Flame][Mark of Rodgort][Energy Blast][Fire Attunement][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Herta, Earth:[build pve prof=E Earth=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Ward of Weakness][Ward Against Melee][Sandstorm][Churning Earth][Eruption][Earth Attunement][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

Looks so sexy, but I'm positive ANET won't implement it, or we won't be pugging at all

Age

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

The Protection hench don't have [aegis] and I would still like [charge] on the warriors as well self heal maybe.

dilan155

dilan155

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

living room

N/

i would love this to be the standard bars so much but i doubt a-net will change it even though it will be very easy change to implement.

turbo234

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2006

WI

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro View Post
Cynn, Fire:[build prof=E Fire=12+1+1 Energy=12+1][Glyph of Restoration][Savannah Heat][Liquid Flame][Fireball][Meteor][Fireball][Fire Attunement][Resurrection Signet][/build]
because 2 fireballs iz pro

jackinthe

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2007

gw is an mmo.

1. get a friend.
2. use 6 heroes.

if you have to go it alone, taking 4 hench doesnt really matter that much.

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthe View Post
gw is an mmo.

1. get a friend.
2. use 6 heroes.

if you have to go it alone, taking 4 hench doesnt really matter that much.
gw is a corpg.

1. get a friend OR use AI
2. use heroes or henchies for non-filled slots

if you have to go alone, taking 4 hench really matters a lot but most of the damage comes from you and your heroes

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Lots of scrolling...

Ok, only things I got issues with:

Change Talon's Faction build, too close to Lucas/Eli. Eli and Talon are in the same spot a lot.

Change Eve's or Brutus' build, they are in the same outposts no need for doubles.

Change Erys' elite. I like mesmers a bit, but being forced to only one elite in all areas, boring.

Give Sogolon a different elite, such as [[The Power is Yous!]

Change Cynn's Nightfall build. Two Fireballs? lol

Gehraz is scythe not earth, but with that build, wouldn't he be better off with an Earth Prayers elite? :x

Give Zho (EN) an attack skill in exchange for one of those interrupts. The elite is enough of interruption but another one is ok.

While I like your additions of Resurrection Signets in the henchmen bars... a resurrection signet on every one sounds like overdoing it a bit. How I see it, attackers (at least melee - warriors assassins and dervishes) don't need resurrection signets. Their job is to keep the enemy busy not stop whenever a party member fell.

Remove the melee's resurrection signets, and the other changes, and I'll /sign. Until then /sign for the concept.

Marverick

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

Those Monk bars are horrible...

Blessed Light is not used very well by heroes.
Healing Breeze sucks.
Restore Life on a Monk... they'll be running around and onto the frontlines spending 8 seconds rezing someone.

The blood necros need Order of Pain and Dark Fury. Vamp gaze and all that stuff is really useless.

Also henchmen need runes... I would like a minor for all of their used attributes, +1 on the head of whatever they specialize in, and a minor vigor, at the very least.

Schmerdro

Schmerdro

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Canada

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Age View Post
The Protection hench don't have [aegis] and I would still like [charge] on the warriors as well self heal maybe.
I don't think Henchmen would use Aegis when it's appropriate, nor would they chain it... so I thought Guardian would be easier to use.
I remembering reading how a lot of people complained that Charge is useless since it's not important in battle. Also, I try to diversify the elites because I find having Charge Warriors in every campaign to be quite boring.
All Warrior builds already have a self-heal.

Oops, I didn't notice she had 2 Fireballs XD I'll replace one with... um... Flare I guess. Not a lot of choice in Core/NF skills

Azazel The Assassin, very good observations!

I'll change Talon's build to this: [build prof=W Sword=11+1+1 Strength=10+1 Tactics=10+1]["Coward!"][Silverwing Slash][Sun and Moon Slash][Tiger Stance]["Watch Yourself!"]["For Great Justice!"][Healing Signet][Resurrection Signet][/build]

I'll change Brutus's build to this: [build prof=N Blood=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Vampiric Spirit][Vampiric Gaze][Vampiric Swarm][Dark Pact][Jaundiced Gaze][Strip Enchantment][Blood Bond][Resurrection Signet][/build]

I'll change Erys's elite to [Lyssa's Aura] since he needs more energy management and he's likely to maintain that enchantment with [Overload]. And now that I think about, I'll give him [Power Drain] instead of [Cry of Frustration] so he has just as much energy management as Lo Sha/Hala.

I don't know about Sogolon. ["The Power Is Yours!"] is good for triggering echoes so if I get it, I would also feel like adding some echoes but there isn't enough room for them. Sogolon is already leaning towards healing, so I wanted him to have some condition removal since Paragons are good at that. [Song of Purification] needs 12 points of investment so I'd have to lower Leadership but ["It's just a flesh wound."] would synergize with [Energizing Chorus]. For now, I think I'll wait and read more opinions about this.

Gehraz looks fine the way he is, to me. I just think that all Dervishes should invest 8 points in Mysticism because it's godly in PvE. [Ebon Dust Aura] is too specialized, I want to keep his build flexible, and [Vow of Strength] requires too much team coordination since enemies shouldn't be affected by any conditions for it to work.

You're right about Zho, I'll replace [Savage Shot] with [Penetrating Attack].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin
a resurrection signet on every one sounds like overdoing it a bit
I completely agree since I never use them (I always prefer a hard rez if any), but I don't want to change these builds too much from what Arena-Net made. I also want to keep these builds simple, too many skills to choose from and it might get too complicated for henchmen. I just don't think it's significant enough to modify.

To what Marverick said:
Keep in mind that this isn't about making the best builds in GW, we're just making decent builds that look like fun. That's why I made all those restrictions at the top of the original post. And obviously, saying that something "sucks" doesn't really help; I would appreciate if you could offer some suggestions instead.

Oh, and Healing Breeze gives 324 healing (with a +20% enchantment mod) for 10 energy. Personally, I think that's quite nice.
I agree, I would never use [Restore Life] nor [Renew Life], but if I take those out, I'd have to get [Resurrect] instead. Eh, that's actually not a bad idea... I'll wait for more opinions on this, I want to keep these build varied and similar to the ones already made by Arena-Net.

I don't like Order of Pain and Dark Fury on a henchman bar because it's too specific and specialized. A team of spell-casters wouldn't gain anything, I want to keep the builds flexible.

Yeah, it would be awesome if Henchmen could also have decent gear, but I want to keep this discussion focused on the important things first.

IronSheik

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marverick View Post
Those Monk bars are horrible...

Blessed Light is not used very well by heroes.
Healing Breeze sucks.
Restore Life on a Monk... they'll be running around and onto the frontlines spending 8 seconds rezing someone.

The blood necros need Order of Pain and Dark Fury. Vamp gaze and all that stuff is really useless.

Also henchmen need runes... I would like a minor for all of their used attributes, +1 on the head of whatever they specialize in, and a minor vigor, at the very least.

He did say these aren't HERO bars, they are henchman, complain more

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro View Post
Oops, I didn't notice she had 2 Fireballs XD I'll replace one with... um... Flare I guess. Not a lot of choice in Core/NF skills
A quick look at the the Priest of Balthazar: [[Glowing Gaze] would be much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
Azazel The Assassin, very good observations!

-snip Talon's Build-

-snip Brutus' Build-
I see nothign wrong with Brutus' new build. Talon's build, I think having [[Hundred Blades] would be better, but that might be seen as too op for a henchman so, go with [[Quivering Blade].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
-snip Erys' changes-

-snip Sologon's changes-

-snip Gehraz's changes-

-snip Zho's changes-
Erys: Sounds fine.

Sologon: With [[Angelic Bond]'s change, that would make a good Leadership elite.

Gehraz: My point was more the lack of Scythe attacks. In my opinion, [[Veil of Thorns] is not needed that much. Along with the resurrection signet, so those - or at least one of those - can be changed to an attack skill. Personally, I like Gehraz how he is.

Zho: That works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
I completely agree since I never use them (I always prefer a hard rez if any), but I don't want to change these builds too much from what Arena-Net made. I also want to keep these builds simple, too many skills to choose from and it might get too complicated for henchmen. I just don't think it's significant enough to modify.
Anet's original set up was attackers get resurrection signets. So it isn't going too far with just switching it around, from attackers (minus paragons) to casters. Also, due to henchmen having specific builds, they can get special AI set just to those builds. I.e., when to use specific skills, when not to use specific skills, what order to use skills, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
Oh, and Healing Breeze gives 324 healing (with a +20% enchantment mod) for 10 energy. Personally, I think that's quite nice.
I agree, I would never use [Restore Life] nor [Renew Life], but if I take those out, I'd have to get [Resurrect] instead. Eh, that's actually not a bad idea... I'll wait for more opinions on this, I want to keep these build varied and similar to the ones already made by Arena-Net.
I personally like [[Renew Life] due to its healing affect. But that's just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
Yeah, it would be awesome if Henchmen could also have decent gear, but I want to keep this discussion focused on the important things first.
This is definably something to bring up later on, but I agree, build changes first.

Oh, and a clarification: Elites only get put in at level 20, so prior to that, they will have 7 skills.

Also, Faction henchmen that are in Raisu Palace and Imperial Sanctum need to have a "kick out" skill or have 7 skills with the elite - as they get the celestial skill in the last two missions.

Schmerdro

Schmerdro

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Canada

N/

But Glowing Gaze would need another skill that makes foes Burn.

I liked [Quivering Blade] too, I just didn't think it was very Tengu-like since Tengu seem very non-shaking or non-trembling kind of creatures. Anyway, yeah, more damage-dealing makes sense instead of more utility stuff, so I'll put Quivering in there.

To me, [Angelic Bond] seems highly conditional (hopefully the healers won't let an ally's health go fatally low) and with a high recharge (30 seconds with only a 10 seconds duration). I liked the Motivation elites a lot better XD

Gehraz doesn't have much energy management so I thought 2 attack skills with 4 and 8 seconds recharge times would be enough. But you are right that Veil of Thorns is too conditional so I'll replace it with [Crippling Sweep].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
Oh, and a clarification: [...]
That is correct. For the last 2 missions in Factions, one of the non-elite skills in every henchman's bar will have to be replaced with the Celestial Skill. I just think these are quite easy decisions and should simply be left to Arena-Net.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

While I appreciate your efforts, there a just a few problems here.

1) Heroes and Hench chain Aegis perfectly, there is absolutely no reason to remove PVE's most powerful non elite prot spell from them.

2) The B Light monk has Gift of Health and two other healing skills. This is a bad thing. So is Healing Breeze on HM, there are better skills to take. Overall I do not like your monk bars, but most of the others are decent.

3) I prefer Erys Vasburg as he currently is. He is the best mesmer hench available in the game.

4) Charge Warriors are good to reduce the time taken to vanquish.

5) Sogolon is better as a full heal / support anthem / chant paragon as having extra party wide skills in a team of 8 is more significant then a couple of spear attacks.

6) EOTN henchmen dont need changing, except for one of the monks to remove the pairing of ZB and WoH. I would prefer a boon signet prot hench as opposed to life sheath because in PVE, dismiss condition is the best condition removal skill as it doubles up with a decent heal, and it saves an elite slot. Boon Signet prot (as in my thread) would be better for 'red bars up', and with better energy management using the signet.
It is very hard to make a perfect and suitable bar for use everywhere in the game, but we would even be better off with good henchman skill bars made entirely from core skills throughout the game then we are with the current henchmen.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro View Post
But Glowing Gaze would need another skill that makes foes Burn.
Doesn't need burning. Just benefits from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
I liked [Quivering Blade] too, I just didn't think it was very Tengu-like since Tengu seem very non-shaking or non-trembling kind of creatures. Anyway, yeah, more damage-dealing makes sense instead of more utility stuff, so I'll put Quivering in there.
There is also [[Auspicious Parry] to think about as well. Although, with going with the "tengu" feel, [[Primal Rage] would fit, but I don't know if people want an elite version of insta kill on a henchman's bar.

If going with Auspicious Parry, then we should change out Tiger Stance, replacing it with perhaps [["You Will Die!'] - the extra adrenaline can make up for the slower attack speed. Or can have [[Frenzy] instead as long as the AI is set to use Auspicious Parry when Talon starts to take damage - therefore removing the double damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
Gehraz doesn't have much energy management so I thought 2 attack skills with 4 and 8 seconds recharge times would be enough. But you are right that Veil of Thorns is too conditional so I'll replace it with [Crippling Sweep].
If energy is an issue, wouldn't it make more sense to use [[Lyssa's Assault].

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
1) Heroes and Hench chain Aegis perfectly, there is absolutely no reason to remove PVE's most powerful non elite prot spell from them.
agreed, when it is the same skill, henchmen can easily chain skills (two wars with Charge gets me almost perma Charge!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
3) I prefer Erys Vasburg as he currently is. He is the best mesmer hench available in the game.
I disagree, Odurra is a better mesmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
4) Charge Warriors are good to reduce the time taken to vanquish.
True, but would you have speed between mobs (therefore reducing time to recover henchmen energy - which you cannot see) or would you have more damage to hasten the time it takes to kill a mob (therefore requiring less energy from monks)? I go with the later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
5) Sogolon is better as a full heal / support anthem / chant paragon as having extra party wide skills in a team of 8 is more significant then a couple of spear attacks.
One or two spear attacks - especially those that add conditions - is not bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
6) EOTN henchmen dont need changing, except for one of the monks to remove the pairing of ZB and WoH. I would prefer a boon signet prot hench as opposed to life sheath because in PVE, dismiss condition is the best condition removal skill as it doubles up with a decent heal, and it saves an elite slot. Boon Signet prot (as in my thread) would be better for 'red bars up', and with better energy management using the signet.
It is very hard to make a perfect and suitable bar for use everywhere in the game, but we would even be better off with good henchman skill bars made entirely from core skills throughout the game then we are with the current henchmen.
I see your points here, and I can agree. except for Lina, EN bars are fairly good. Although I think Aiden should be changed to a conditioner in EN.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro View Post
generally stay the same way as they were made by Arena-Net.
That's your first problem right there!
[Enfeebling Blood][rend enchantment][faintheartedness] > ALL the necro builds you listed.
The guys at A.Net messed up. So if the plan is to fix this - let's do it the right way, rather then just make thier shit stink less!


The second problem:
The things that work in HM, work in NM.
The things that work in NM, don't always work in HM.
Best evidenced by "OMG!!11 Let's add eles for WTF-PWN-damage!!!11!"
And in that spirit - no [blinding Flash] on the air ele!??!?!?


And third:
Skills change.
This is something we'd need to accept and embrace. And that is why - this would be the BEST way to balance PvE. You DELETE PvE(-only) skills - and nerf and buff EVERYTHING the way PvP guys want it!
You don't take PvE into consideration in the SLIGHTEST here.
And after you are done with that - you sit down and look what did those changes cause in PvE and then you modify the static PvE bars. You raised damage on certain skills - well then , you might want to look if the bosses using those skills doing double damage didn't get out of control. You killed of certain skills? Then you remove those skills of hench bars!


(Oh and [Power Leech] sucks. It's a 20 sec recharge skill that interrupts spells - and steals energy. If you don't know what tu run - [E-Surge] or [Mantra of recovery] out of the core skills. And [CoF] should be on ANY mesmer bar - regardless of the hench's specialization.)

(Double oh! Don't get me wrong - there are a LOT more issues in the bars listed - but I'd first suggest to re-think your plan first! It doesn't make sense to change one skill on the bar - if the WHOLE idea of the bar is wrong!)

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Oh yea, I forget about Odura with VoR, prior to that buff, Erys was better.

Paragons only need to be offensive if you have more then one, and dont have 5 other damage dealers. Overall, I like 5 dedicated damage dealers, two monks, plus a support para.

I agree that Charge on a damage warrior is a waste, I like to take a paragon with charge and fall back on speed runs, now there is also Incoming.

In NF, I always use the monks, para and earth hench. I would be happy with a decent similar backline in Factions (using rits instead of paras), and prophecies just needs major updating.

Evil Neato

Evil Neato

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2008

nO, MS, YAY, vOR, EnS

W/A

I'd rather leave hench alone and just allow however many heroes people wanted for PvE.

daze

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

E/

don't the henchie skill bars differ between HM and NM? Although your massive skillbar suggestion is exceedingly awesome in its entirety, i think you should post the NM and the HM suggestion of each henchman.

Schmerdro

Schmerdro

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Canada

N/

To bhavv:

K, 2 "for" and 1 "against" so I'll replace Guardian with Aegis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
The B Light monk has Gift of Health and two other healing skills. This is a bad thing.
I thought they worked perfectly since [Gift of Health] wouldn't disable the skills from Divine Favor and the signets are just for energy management. I'll replace Healing Breeze with [Healing Seed].

I'll change Erys's elite back to Power Leech.

I don't want every Warrior in every campaign to use "Charge!" though... I'll wait and read more opinions on this.

All builds on PvX wiki with a Paragon primary have at least one spear attack. But can you think of anything specific to replace Energizing Chorus, Leader's Comfort and Cautery Signet? Which of the Motivation elites do you like the most?

For Mhenlo, I didn't like [Orison of Healing] because [Word of Healing] and [Patient Spirit] are better in pretty much every way. [Healing Touch] is suicide, [Divine Intervention] is questionable because of its long recharge, and [Deny Hexes] is inefficient because he has no other Divine Favor skills.

To Azazel The Assassin:

Flare does more damage than Glowing Gaze so, without the Burning, I think Flare is unquestionably better.

[Auspicious Parry] is too defensive and [Primal Rage] is suicide on a henchman. Just ignore what I said about how skills "feel" XD I like Quivering Blade

[Lyssa's Assault] is more like a free attack skill more than energy management, and I think it's recharge is too long to be considered a useful damage-increaser. I'm very happy with what Gehraz has right now.

I'm surprised that none of you still have made a crack about Lo Sha using [Tease] :P

To daze:
No they don't differ at all. The only change is that Henchmen use their full skillbar only outside of the newbie training area and in Hard Mode. Everywhere else, they just use fewer skills.

stretchs

stretchs

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

Untimely Demise [Err了] - SOHK

For God's sake at least don't have the "Charge" henchman in Echovald Forest, nothing is more annoying than watching your entire team get decimated by one HM Churning Earth skill because the henchman decided to use "Charge" to get out of it

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
That's your first problem right there!
[Enfeebling Blood][rend enchantment][faintheartedness] > ALL the necro builds you listed.
The guys at A.Net messed up. So if the plan is to fix this - let's do it the right way, rather then just make thier shit stink less!
Except for the build insult, I agree, we shouldn't stick too much with what was started with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
The second problem:
The things that work in HM, work in NM.
The things that work in NM, don't always work in HM.
Best evidenced by "OMG!!11 Let's add eles for WTF-PWN-damage!!!11!"
And in that spirit - no [blinding Flash] on the air ele!??!?!?
Also a agood point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
And third:
Skills change.
This is something we'd need to accept and embrace. And that is why - this would be the BEST way to balance PvE. You DELETE PvE(-only) skills - and nerf and buff EVERYTHING the way PvP guys want it!
You don't take PvE into consideration in the SLIGHTEST here.
And after you are done with that - you sit down and look what did those changes cause in PvE and then you modify the static PvE bars. You raised damage on certain skills - well then , you might want to look if the bosses using those skills doing double damage didn't get out of control. You killed of certain skills? Then you remove those skills of hench bars!
Delete PvE-only skills? BLASPHEMY! Jk, I personally hate EN PvE-only skills, but don't mind the Kurzick/Luxon and Sunspear/Lightbringer skills. But that's just because (aside from three generic skills) they are profession based - limiting the usage a bit. However, like some of the Sunspear skills ([["There's Nothing To Fear!"] and [[Critical Agility]), all the profession skills should get primary profession benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
(Oh and [Power Leech] sucks. It's a 20 sec recharge skill that interrupts spells - and steals energy. If you don't know what tu run - [E-Surge] or [Mantra of recovery] out of the core skills. And [CoF] should be on ANY mesmer bar - regardless of the hench's specialization.)
Gotta agree on this - I just stayed away from editing Mesmer builds because I don't use Mesmers (same with the Monk builds).

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
(Double oh! Don't get me wrong - there are a LOT more issues in the bars listed - but I'd first suggest to re-think your plan first! It doesn't make sense to change one skill on the bar - if the WHOLE idea of the bar is wrong!)
I'm starting to think upier should state his build ideas. I've stated mine, in both this thread (although its more like suggestions to the suggested builds) and in Bhaav's past thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze View Post
don't the henchie skill bars differ between HM and NM? Although your massive skillbar suggestion is exceedingly awesome in its entirety, i think you should post the NM and the HM suggestion of each henchman.
Only with non-level 20 henchmen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Neato View Post
I'd rather leave hench alone and just allow however many heroes people wanted for PvE.
THen what's the point of the henchmen? I personally say turn some of the henchmen into heroes, increase the hero cap, then remove the rest of the henchmen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
To Azazel The Assassin:

Flare does more damage than Glowing Gaze so, without the Burning, I think Flare is unquestionably better.

[Auspicious Parry] is too defensive and [Primal Rage] is suicide on a henchman. Just ignore what I said about how skills "feel" XD I like Quivering Blade

[Lyssa's Assault] is more like a free attack skill more than energy management, and I think it's recharge is too long to be considered a useful damage-increaser. I'm very happy with what Gehraz has right now.
Cynn: Flare is spammable and henchman AI is stupid and would end up wasting too much energy on spamming that.

Talon: Primal Rage I said not to use due to it being suicide. Auspicious Parry isn't too defensive, and what's wrong with defense? You need some defense to be at least decent!

Gehraz: Just leave him be as he is in game now in that case. His usefulness is superb, even prior to his buff.

Age

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by stretchs View Post
For God's sake at least don't have the "Charge" henchman in Echovald Forest, nothing is more annoying than watching your entire team get decimated by one HM Churning Earth skill because the henchman decided to use "Charge" to get out of it
I like Charge in Nightfall as nothing beats free run from Devona as well some places in Tryia.I see aegis has been put in.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
Except for the build insult, I agree, we shouldn't stick too much with what was started with.
That was a Blood insult.
Unless you're going for Orders (which is just too specific for general PvE) - Blood sucks. Either make them into MMs or Cursers. (And that was my point with listing those 3 skills. They are just superior to anything blood can dish out!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
I'm starting to think upier should state his build ideas. I've stated mine, in both this thread (although its more like suggestions to the suggested builds) and in Bhaav's past thread.
Necros - curses.
Factions:
[enfeebling blood][rend enchantment][reckless haste][barbs][Lingering Curse][Faintheartedness][Weaken Armor][resurrection signet]
C1:
[enfeebling blood][rend enchantment][barbs][Spiteful Spirit][shadow of fear][Weaken Armor][Insidious Parasite][resurrection signet]
(I am fully aware of the contradiction between SoF and SS - but both are too good to miss. If you want to dump one - dump SS.)
C3:
[enfeebling blood][rend enchantment][Well of Darkness][barbs][Lingering Curse][Faintheartedness][Weaken Armor][resurrection signet]

Mesmer:
C1
[shatter hex][drain ench][empathy][CoF][power spike][power drain][mantra of Recovery][resurrection signet]
Factions
[shatter hex][drain ench][empathy][CoF][power spike][power drain][mantra of Recovery][resurrection signet]
C3
[shatter hex][drain ench][empathy][CoF][power spike][power drain][Visions of Regret][resurrection signet]
Illusion
[Clumsiness][Cof][power drain][drain ench][mantra of recovery][Arcane Conundrum][power spike][resurrection signet]

Ritualist
[life][splinter weapon][ancestors' rage][weapon of warding][spirit light][mend body and soul][flesh of my flesh][Protective Was Kaolai] (There is no point in running an elite if you have better options.)


Too sleepy to take this further.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
That was a Blood insult.
Unless you're going for Orders (which is just too specific for general PvE) - Blood sucks. Either make them into MMs or Cursers. (And that was my point with listing those 3 skills. They are just superior to anything blood can dish out!)
I politely, but angrily, disagree. I use a full blood build for all PvE, and for plenty of PvP too. Only way I die is when I am spiked with a crappy - or no - monk when I can't keep myself healed, which anyone would die under.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
-snip builds-
You serious? Where's the variety? You're builds are, in my honest opinion, must worse then a wammo with mending, healsig, and frenzy. Because there are some skills that would be better to take, and you prefer Shadow of Fear over SS, when you could go with [[Price of Failure] instead.

May I ask when you stopped playing GW? Because obviously you actually do not know what you are talking about when you seemed like you did before.

Schmerdro

Schmerdro

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Canada

N/

4 times in a row Arena-Net has gives us either Blood or non-MM-Death Henchmen. Somehow I don't think that was a coincidence. This thread is about following the format made by Arena-Net; if you don't like that then don't sign this.

Yes, I didn't add [Blinding Flash] because I though the Weakness from [Enervating Charge] was just as good and less energy intensive (since that build already had [Lightning Hammer]).

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
I politely, but angrily, disagree. I use a full blood build for all PvE, and for plenty of PvP too. Only way I die is when I am spiked with a crappy - or no - monk when I can't keep myself healed, which anyone would die under.
You are playing PvE and PvP that no-one cares about.
That's why you think that Blood is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
You serious? Where's the variety? You're builds are, in my honest opinion, must worse then a wammo with mending, healsig, and frenzy. Because there are some skills that would be better to take, and you prefer Shadow of Fear over SS, when you could go with [[Price of Failure] instead.

May I ask when you stopped playing GW? Because obviously you actually do not know what you are talking about when you seemed like you did before.
Because SoF and Enfeebling will pretty much negate all physical damage.
PoF has a fitting PvE name - it's a 20 sec recharge skill that affects a single target. I'd rather not.
SS is fairly shit - but it's damage in the cursing line and it's not like other elites are THAT much better. Hence my inclusion of Lingering in other builds. The only build that could include other skills that I'd consider worth taking would be the C3 one. Meekness, Rip, PoD would be very decent options - possibly even better then Faint, WoD, Rend - and that was something I was looking into and wouldn't have issues with being replaced.

And it's not worth being a unique snowflake when one could be effective instead.

newbie_of_doom

newbie_of_doom

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

WTFPRIVACYDUDE

Endangered Feces [DoDo]

W/Mo

yay better henchmen

I didnt look at them all but they looked pretty good.
Some of the skills would be bad on those bars, but since they're henchmen they should be like that. The basic idea of the bar is good, which is quite henchmen-like.
so /sign

Shadowlance.

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2008

The Prophecy Of Life

R/P

With the update to Life Sheath, I'm hoping ANet will remember Redemptor Karl and update his skill bar. Seems a waste to have Mend Ailment and Reversal of Fortune. There are definitely some better options they could give him now.

Schmerdro

Schmerdro

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Canada

N/

I made a few changes:

Factions Healer Monk: [Signet of Devotion] replaced with [Dwayna's Sorrow]; [Remove Hex] for [Deny Hexes]; [Blessed Light] for [Boon Signet]. This build is much less energy-intensive.

EoTN Healer Monk: [Spotless Mind] replaced with [Cure Hex], [Spotless Soul] for [Healing Seed].
EoTN Protector Monk: [Life Sheath] replaced with [Peace and Harmony]. I thought that cheap and efficient condition/hex removal was more need that just extra healing.

Factions Blood Necromancer: Removed [Toxic Chill] because it is only in Nightfall; replaced it with [Discord]. This build will rely on its allies to spread conditions; [Rotting Flesh] is not used because it can easily backfire.

Nightfall Fire Elementalist: [Flare] replaced with [Fire Storm].

Factions Chiyo: [Displacement] replaced with [Shadowsong]. Displacement would only block 5 attacks and recharge in about 25 seconds.

Nightfall Paragon: [Leader's Comfort] replaced with [Signet of Synergy]; [Cautery Signet] with [Song of Purification]; [Energizing Chorus] with [Chorus of Restoration].