PvP Tournament Rewards. Summary of total Costs / Proposal for Change.

Yeah, now explain THAT to Upier.

Stop asking for impossible.

PvP reward was never about paying for luxury. It was about rewarding PvP players, allowing pvp chars to get exotic skins as easily as pve chars.

Meh, can't hear another "paying for luxury" phrase... That's what the guy tells you when he's trying to rip you off and you comment on it.

What's the difference between cash and money?

And what good would all the money in the world be if your character wouldn't be able to jump to Cavalon to craft his armour? You are being offering a different road to the same goal.
But considering the goal is a PvE one - it doesn't make sense for PvP characters to have a shorter or an equally long road.
IF you decide to not take the short road by creating a PvE character - then why shouldn't you overpay? You have the luxury of not doing things you don't like (=PvE), yet still obtain the rewards that one can only get if one does that thing (=doing PvE and reaching Cavalon). Why shouldn't that have a price?
For example, if you get a guy to get you through C1, do you then refuse to pay him for his service if he was planning on going though it either way?
You are paying for the luxury of not having to do certain things.

Yeah, because when you are doing high-end PvP your CS won't be customized, right?
And I really don't see why the concept of being able to obtain a CS only if someone is selling it (or if you get extremely lucky) is so hard to comprehend.
And for the PvP version - you don't need anyone selling it. You just craft it.
It's the same thing if you are buying ectos from people or the merch. Because the merch is much more convenient - you end up paying more.
(The price is high because it's a luxury item. You pay more because you are lazy and you craft it. You pay more because you can obtain the stats you want - sometimes even weapon/stats combos that aren't available in PvE. You are getting PvE rewards without doing PvE. You pay And you pay more because the mods are free and you are getting tons of other stuff for free. That's why the price can in no way be comparable to the PvE version! The problem is your insanely selective view on what is being offered. Like I said - try getting a +60HP prot Willcrusher-skinned staff in PvE. You can't. And you can in PvP. And I don't see why this shouldn't cost a pretty penny.)

No, I don't find anything wrong with that.
I won't pay that much because I consider that dumb - but if a person would refuse to do that, I don't have a problem with them paying that much for the item.
It's the same reason why I wouldn't buy a mini polar bear. But does that mean that because I am not willing to pay it's price - it's price should be dropped to something that I find suitable?
No, I guess I just won't have the teddy.

Yeah, because I want those things to be cheap.
I am selfish little RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that wants to maximize his profit.
Does it make sense that they are cheap?
Well considering how much faster we can gain faction these days compared to the pre-change - no, it probably doesn't.



Just because you want something to be cheap - it really doesn't make sense for it to be cheap.


I am not denying you are being ripped off.
I am just saying I have no problem with it, because the people who are being ripped off are the ones that decide that they don't want to take the easy road because they don't like it.

EDIT:
Considering that FoW set do not have any bonuses over 1k sets - does that mean you are getting ripped off when opt for it?
Considering that a CS still is 15-22, the same thing as your most average collectors sword - does that mean you are getting ripped off when you opt for it?
You are paying for certain bonuses. Looks, it being rare, whatever ...
Same thing with being able to craft PvE-rewards in PvP.

No worries, hon!
I simply didn't care for it since it didn't bring anything constructive to the discussion.
(Ohh and there is a "delete message"-option also. )

Edit: Decided not to throw anymore wood on the fire.

Okay, let's ignore Crystalline for a second.

Tormented weapons cost AS MUCH as Crystalline.

Do you consider Tormented weapons rarer than Crystalline?

Or equally rare?

No. Then why do both cost over 1800k? 1/10th of that is too much for a Tormented Sword! And it's auto-customized, you can't give it to your other characters like with the PvE version.

The only thing worth (cough cough) buying as a PvP Reward is armor, but THEN AGAIN, IT'S ONE CHARACTER ONLY. If you want to make a character with a different name, hairstyle or anything, you will loose all unlocks.

OH MY GOD.
I cant bear watching people talk about stuff they dont have a half clue about. When you unlock tiers its unlocked account wide. ACCOUNT WIDE. A crystalline costs 300rp not 1800rp a tormented wep is 300 rp NOT 1800 rp. Once u unlock the tier ALL characters have these weapons at 300 rp NOT 1800. The weapons are NOT customized to the char permanently. If you put the weapon on a hero, relog a char and load the hero and take the wep off him then it becomes customized for the next character. Really get a clue about what your saying before you post.

Buy FoW for a PvE character.
Delete it and make a new character of the same class, just with a different name.
Do you need to buy FoW again?
Customize a weapon.
Delete that guy.
Do you get another weapon of that kind because the previous guy had it?

The only time that account unlocking would make sense is if buying a set of PvE armour would unlock it for PvP also. The same thing with weapons.


On the subject of Tormy vs. CS - supply and demand.
Tolkano bypasses supply. And demand does not influence his prices either. So you are stuck with a set price. A price might not correspond to the item's worth. It might be lower to what what is the right price - like I said, you are able to craft weapon/combos that aren't even available in PvE! - or, it might be higher - like, the examples you have given.
Whereas in PvE - we are dealing with a price that is dependent on the supply and demand. And nobody wants Tormies these days because everyone and their mother already has them.
Now imagine what would happen if you couldn't get the gems any longer.
How would that influence Tolki's price and how would that influence the PvE price?



And no, you shouldn't be ignoring CSs. Because the ability to craft CSs (or any other thing for that matter - it's just that CS is one of the most extreme things here) is what is driving the price into the sky.
It's like buying an espresso machine that comes with an inbuilt TV. Sure you might not need the TV - but that doesn't mean you don't have to pay for it if you opt for that machine.
If you opt for a crappy weapon and it's insanely overpriced compared to it's PvE version - you are also paying for the fact that you could also be crafting weapons you can not get in PvE.
That's why I am telling you that you are looking at this in a way to simplified matter.

Why? Why would I want to customise my Monk's Elemental Sword (not that I have one, it's fugly, but it's just an example)? What it would benefit me? Or a wand, staff or anything for casters?

Supply = rp.

You can get as much gold as you can without help of other players.
You can't get any rp without other players. Or opponents. It's not free, you know.

Doesn't change the fact that they cost as much as PvP Crystallines.

What am I saying? Can you customize your PvE Crystalline? No. It's uninscribable. You can't put +5 energy on it. If it drops from HoH, however, you can. And for e-peen purposes, PvE Crystallines don't drop gold. Only purple.

Are you seriously suggesting the use of non-customized stuff for high-end PvP?
Seriously?

Are you seriously equating the odds of PvP ending with no CSs dropping?
Seriously?

No, it doesn't change it.
The reason for it?
Because A.net said so. They are high-end weapons, and the only reason why we don't consider them that any longer is because every one has them.
If they didn't have a set PvP price - it would show. As it does in PvE.

Are you seriously telling people to HIT things with a CUSTOMIZED sword on your CASTER? Sweet Jesus dancing on a Pogo stick!

More like - you MUST do ATs to get PvP rewards. You can't use faction to unlock PvP skins.

And we should agree to everything A.Net throws at us. You enjoyed Ursan Blessing that A.Net said was good?

I have lots of PvE characters and yet I still prefer to play with PvP chars. Guess why?

Sometimes I feel like making my PvP char with ugliest skin and armor possible just to mock people... Easy done with just default PvP skins. Sometimes, though, I want the char to not look like an ass... can it be done? Not unless I want to deck out one million gold WORTH of RPs. If I spent them already, I can't re-buy them back. Nope, gotta wait till next predictions or tourny.

Personally, the only thing worth buying with RP is armor, cause you simply can't get it from PvE. And then again, you can't transfer it to other PvP chars... so it blows even more that weapons in the end.

So what if I can change mods? I can do the same with Perfect Salvage Kit. It will still be cheaper to use the kit unless I change mods 1000 times a day. I can't even freaking change my shield from tactics to strength if I want to. Where's flexibility, luxury or whatever, in that?

I'm not going to read this whole thread, but I would also like to see it made realistically possible to buy shit with RP's and covert balth to RP's or be able to simply buy rewards with balth. I have almost 5 million balth and still have to PvP with generic PvP chars or with PvE chars that don't really have a full compliment of gear, and we all know what a hassle that is. I don't really want z-keys and it would be nice to spend balth buying stuff for my PvP characters.

The only way now to realistically acquire enough RP's to buy fancy / exotic rewards is to place high in the mAT's, which is only possible for a tiny number of players.

Of course this is all vanity, but what is the argument against doing this other than the usual knee-jerk, no-no-no everyone must be punished with PvE grind if they want cool gear? Let PvP players decide if they want to use their balth to unlock, open the z-chest, cash out z-keys or buy PvP-only gear directly with balth imo.

Oh, I remember something.

Upier, how much gold can you farm in a month? If I wanted, I could do something around 200k, if it didn't bore me as hell and if I wanted to waste my mesmer in a Cryway.

And how much Reward Points can you get:

a) Maybe 100 from zaishens.
b) Maybe place 8th or higher in either of ATs.

No other option. In PvE, you have hundreds of methods of gaining gold. In PvP, you get only 2 ways to get RP. So supply is even lower.

Unless you are going to be using one of the warrior skills that require a sword - a spear would be a better choice since you get range while still keeping the bonuses. Customized.
But since you also brought up other caster stuff - it would be dumb to not customize them.
So if you are using a CS on your caster - well then, it would be smarter to buy it from another player. If you can't or won't do that - then you have a second option.
It comes customized though.

You aren't forced to buy PvP rewards.
What the PvP rewards enable though is that you aren't forced to obtain things from other players anymore or they enable you to obtain things that you couldn't get otherwise.
Like I said, why shouldn't that have a price?

If ATs end - it's going to be because the servers will be shut down or the thing will be replaced by a new system.
And if the servers shut down - good luck finding someone that will sell you a CS ...
If on the other hand the problem is that this insanely limits the amount of people that can obtain them - well, then - they are vanity items.
Your PvP warrior won't be ANY worse of in a core PvP armour and with a core PvP weapon compared to a guy in fancy armour/weapons.

I agree with A.Net that Tormies are high-end weapons.
And that's what is being discussed here.

But how many options do you have to buy a CSs?
The answer lies between 0 and X. (where X > 0).
You can have all the gold in the world - if no-one is selling, you can't buy it.

Or another wave of err7, err13's so people will crash and not be able to play ATs. You rarely get such problems when farming in PvE. And even if, you can do it next morning, AT - nope, sorry, lost your chance.

But since you completely miss the point and you still want to talk about CS, I think I'll go with the "Do not feed the squirrels" routine.

1. Win at HoH.
2. Get from ZChest.
3. Drop non-inscribable from UW or FoW chest.

alallalalala I can't hear you lalalala.

Ahh, so you are arguing that the price is too high because people get disconnected!
In that case - you are right, the servers should be fixed!


If ever - this is the best time for a lolcat I encountered on this forum.
Are you seriously suggesting that the odds of being able to craft the weapon of choice are the same as the odds of having that weapon randomly drop?




Since you love picking out one single sentence - obviously choosing the one you think BEST represents what I am trying to say - I'll make the job easier for you this time.
If you choose to respond - I am arguing the following:
"You want to obtain an item. You want it bad. And you are willing to pay any price for it. Because you REALLY want it.
If you are a PvE player - you can only obtain the item if you get a lucky drop or if someone is selling it. If that does not happen, you can not obtain the item. Period.
If you have access to PvP rewards - you can craft the item.
Why should you pay the PvE price for that?"

I am also arguing that that is only one of the issues that raises the price of PvP items. Just in case you forgot.

Yes, the chances of having the weapon randomly drop are much higher than someone spending 1800k worth of reward points to get one weapon he can get for half the normal price. Or 1/10th of it.

If you are an idiot, use reward points.
If you are smart, buy PvE weapon for 1/10th of the PvP price.

That's why PvP rewards make no sense and are useless.

And why you so badly want to customise caster items? +20% damage on a sword you don't meet requirements on is so much you are willing to overpay? Or wand that deals 20 damage will deal 24 damage, is it really worth paying few times more for it?

The system isn't that bad right now. idk why anyone's griping so much.

You can't really think of it as 1500 rps + whatever the thing you want costs. Instead, the initial investment provides you the flexibility to buy stuff on demand.

You don't get it.
The odds discussed here are:
You fulfill all the required conditions.
1. You craft a weapon. You are always able to do so.
2. Something drops. IF you get lucky - you obtain the item you want. If you don't get lucky - you are left empty-handed. You can't control luck.
And that's why you are paying extra when crafting PvP weapons.
You don't need to rely on luck to obtain the weapon.

Always > relying on luck.

You also didn't get it.
The example you have responded to states CLEARLY that you can not buy the PvE weapon. Because no-one is selling it.
And the PvP system eliminates this. You can ALWAYS buy the weapon.

You are paying extra each time for that off-chance that you can't obtain the item you want though other means.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ight=customize

See, here's the problem with your logic. You assume people have unlimited access to Reward Points. They don't. If someone enjoys HA, AB or any non-GvG, non-HB form of PvP, he can't get those points other way than by predictions. Which yield a max of 100 points.

Here's another biased scenario:

1. You can't craft because you are 10 RPs short. You can't just go out of town and kill monsters, as you would do when you lack 10k gold. Because 10 RP = 10k.

2. You can always buy a thing because if you overprice it, you will find 5 sellers. Say you want a req 9 Elemental Sword perf, +30 hp zealous 15^50. How much it's worth in PvE? 100k + 20 ectos? Okay, you get your RPs, convert them to zkeys, then to money. You leave 100k, convert the rest to ectoes and you can give a WTB 100k + 50e. And you save a fortune.

You can't buy PvP weapon if you lack even 1rp. You must have equal or more than it to get the weapon.

I noticed nice thing about your posts.

You always give a PERFECT scenario to prove your point.

Because there is no way you might be wrong.

Also, re-read the OP. Because you are missing the point.

Vanity items.
Some people just won't have them.
Or should all PvE armours cost 1k?
(Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE that! But like I said - just because you want something - doesn't mean it should happen.)

We are dealing with people who refuse to PvE and do not want to look for bargains.
You want it cheap?
Create a PvE character, get him though the chapters and buy the stuff you want. Go find a bargain on the weapon you want.
You don't like that?
Well, pre-PvP rewards you were out of luck. If you wanted PvE vanity crap - you had to do PvE.
Now - you can just massively overpay for it. BUT at least you have access to it.
And there are people that consider this to be worth it. The OP just isn't one of them.


Like I said - the price makes sense.
But it's up to each individual to decide how much they want it.
Z-Keys here I come!

And that's where your train of thought derailed and crashed into a group of toddlers.

Most people that are able to get these vast numbers of reward points already have PvE characters of their usual professions. Why keep a system that gets barely used ? The only reason to use a PvP character tuned with reward points over the PvE character,, would be because they're easier to adjust to new builds/meta (because you can swap around insignia's, runes, inscriptions and mods at will). Quite a poor advantage for such an insane price.

Right now you're better off actually buying PvE weapons for your PvP toons instead of using the PvP system. That sounds pretty stupid imo.

Simple mathematics prove the current lay-out of the reward system is more or less flawed. The costs far outweigh other options. Reviewing this isn't such an odd request.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...49&postcount=1
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=83
I am guessing these guys are PvP guys.
(You also have people in this thread that don't mind it.)

You want a reasonable price?
Implement the supply and demand system. You can only buy a weapon with the Tormy skin from Tolkano if someone else sells his Tormy weapon to him. Make it so that you can only craft the Willy-skinned staff with Willcrusher stats.
Pay for each Sup Vigor you add to your set.
Pay for each dye you use.
Demand that you need to obtain all the unlocked skills again for each PvP character.

Then it makes perfect sense that the cost of PvP rewards would equal the cost of PvE rewards. Well, it would need to be a bit more expensive since we need to consider the amount of time one wastes in having to reach ... for instance ... Cavalon to be able to craft Luxon armour.

But don't expect for the price to match or be comparable if you are able to bypass the rules that control obtaining said items in PvE.

Okay, other thing why PvP Rewards =/= PvE Rewards.

TIME

How much getting 100k would take? 2 weeks? Give or take few days, depending how fast can someone farm. Also, ZKeys give a lot. And you can farm some ectoes to get the remaining price of a Torm Weapon.

And how much time would it take to make 1800 reward points? If you do only predictions and don't take part in ATs, 100 if they predict correctly everything. That means 18 months of perfect guessing. One and one half years.

And if you don't like HB or GvG, that's the only thing you can do to get PvP rewards.

Bypassing the rules = double, maybe triple the normal price. But not 10 times bigger price...

That's the issue then!
No wonder people think it's too expensive!
Stop sucking, get better and you'll earn more points.

I seriously don't see how you can compare a guy that does no PvP and he gains all his points through predicting with a HEAVY PvE farmer. Your comparison would make sense if you''d compare the guy who predicts with a guy that plays an hour or two per week! How long will it take for THAT PvE guy to obtain FoW or a Tormy?
2 weeks? Or a few years?



If you gain your points through predictions - you OBVIOUSLY aren't the target customer for the most high end stuff!

Sorry, upier, but you just don't make any sense. Obtain some PvP rewards first, just so you can compare them without bias, then we'll talk.

Have you actually tried unlocking something?

Well, you are comparing a person playing so much AT he has time to get 1800 reward points and not give up half-way thinking it's just stupid to someone sane, buying zkeys and getting items dirt cheap.

I see... When you do biased comparasments, it's good, but when someone else does it, it's bad.

Also, PvPer would get 100k in a month easily. 50k from predictions at least, a lot from Faction -> ZKey transfers and if someone HoHs/ABs, he gets faction or items from the chest.

What if you play 12 hour a day in HA and ANet simply ignores you? Or you are a good player, but your guild doesn't want to play/can't play ATs?

Oh, and funny thing. You know how FoW is worth 400-500k, right? Well dig this - in PvP rewards, it's worth 1200 reward points. That's 1.200.000 gold. Only twice as much as in PvE? Why not 6kk? It would be at Tormented Shield's level.

Now, why the hell would I want to do that?
Like I said - the price makes sense - but "I" don't consider it to be worth it.
I'll get Z-keys -> money and I'll waste them on AFKing the rings!

Obtaining PvP rewards is a luxury I am not willing to pay for.
But I don't go out and throw hissy fits and start yelling that things should be cheaper because I want money and pretty outfits at the same time! (I only do that when it comes to the Tigger!)
I just accept the fact that I'll just have to run around PvP looking like I am poor.

I think I stated clearly that I was asking how long it would take for a PvE guy that does next to no PvE to obtain FoW.
That guy is a reasonable comparison to your PvP guy that does NO PvP but you still feel he should be entitled to the absolute high-end PvP rewards.

Think of RPs as PvP version of PvE gold. (And I think that should be fairly easy because you have made that comparison a few times in this thread alone.)
If you aren't obtaining any RPs in PvP that equals to you not obtaining any money in PvE.
Can a PvE person with no gold obtain FoW? (Without a suggar-daddy of course.)

So now you are complaining about that thing being too cheap?
Yeah, considering it's the most high-end PvE armour - you are right, it would make sense if it was more expensive.
I guess, the guys at A.Net were feeling generous.
The bastards!

If he's lucky/abuses SCUW/SCFoW, about a month or two.
Wait, so 12 hours of HA is no pvp? Then what is?
If RP if PvP gold, what do you do if you by accident lack 5 rps, because you predicted wrong and have to wait till your guild does another AT AND you must hope to win?

You can't just go out and farm something for 15 minutes or less. You also can't buy RPs, like you could with lack of ecto or shards.

Sarcasm.
I find it... disturbing. You find the prices make sense AND are stupid/pointless at the same time and you are defending them? Decide, either you defend it and say it's fair AND you would use them (because otherwise there is something wrong with them and the alternative is 10 times better) or you say it's senseless.

Sorry, I can't argue with idiots. They'll just bring me down to their level and beat me with their experience of idiocy.

What Upier is saying is:
That anyone who doesn't do like Upier should be punished severely = People who don't want to buy skins from PvE or play with PvE chars in PvP should be charged very heavy fees.

It's either very stupid or very selfish, I can't decide.

I, for one, want to make the reward system viable and not be a money trap for stupid.

Read again what I said.

Aspy is PvP.
Why the hell don't I have my Tigger yet?

You are not rich enough.
Some people just aren't supposed to have some things. And the beauty of GW is that these things are vanity things.

SF enables people to gain lots of gold.
That's super duper fun! I LOVE gold! It allows me to buy pretty things!
Does it make sense for it to be in the game?

FoW offers no bonuses over 1k armour.
I'd LOVE to get a set for my ritu because it's super sweet!
Does it make sense that it costs 1k?

Fow = 1k.
Pretty please!
Tigger for everyone!
Pretty please!

If you are against it - you are very selfish or very stupid!

Well, I didn't call YOU names, just your argument. Intelligent people do stupid things pretty often, just maybe less often that others. But if you want to play it like this, fine with me.

As for your example, you're trying to make your point with sarcasm... but it fails quite miserably.

We. Are. Not. Comparing. Expensive. Armors. To. Non. Expensive. Ones.

We. Are. Comparing. The. Overwhelmingly. Overpriced. PvP. Rewards.

And. I. Feel. Like. I. Am. Talking. To. A. Brick. Wall.

Guess I'll finally take masamune's advice.

My apologies.
As often in this thread I used the term "you" instead of "one".

That should have read "If one is against it - one is very selfish or very stupid!"

But I'll answer to the both of you:


The game is designed on excluding certain people from obtaining certain things.
If the price would be lowered - (what Aby is suggesting - so that people who only predict would also be able to obtain the items reasonably easy) - this would not exclude enough people.
And that makes no sense.
It would be nice though. The same way as FoW costing 1k.

You do realize you can just PvP with a PvE character yes? Just buy the proper equipment and done.

You do realize you don't need to purchase the highly overpriced items through the PvP system but can buy them in PvE?

One is given a choice of obtaining PvE rewards on demand and without doing PvE. And that warrants a higher price.
One just needs to ask oneself - do I really dislike PvE to the extent that I am willing to overpay for the items?

The system right now is utterly useless. Make it global and call it a day, if nothing else (e.g. once made, you can re-make at any time: read PvP characters - meant to reroll).

The price is high enough at least that much should be granted.

I simply can't believe how insanely shortsighted I was!
Tolky can be seen as the future!
Imagine implementing a PvE (!!) Tolky into Ascalon, Shing Jea and Kamadan!
You create a new character - walk up to Tolky and ask him to craft a CS for you! Or FoW! No need to walk though PvE to obtain it and no need to bid or look for the item of choice in outposts!
Of course the price would HAVE to match the PvP price (well except that you'd pay in gold rather then RPs)! You'd also have access to FREE runes, basic dye, insignias, inscriptions, mods - the same way that the PvP system works! Of course the items would then have to be customized for the user on the spot (that is - if they stay customized for PvP guys also).
Can you imagine the splash Tolky would make if the PvP (thus also the PvE Tolky's) prices were then lowered to reflect the market prices!

Now of course some critics will say that this would totally destroy the market of the items sold in such a fashion - but that's how Tolky already works.
Well, the insanely high price of items is keeping that relatively in check.



So, as hard as it is to believe this after all the bitching I did, implement a PvE Tolky and I'll GLADLY sign this!

I'm normally pretty good at talking to a brick wall, but I think I'll still pass as others did.

I don't think Upier realized that PvP chars can't go to PvE areas though.