Crazy new elite mission idea: The Zaishen Temple

Premise:
In case if the title isn't enough: an elite mission that is actually hard and ergo "elite".

Objectives in said suggestion:
*Reward skill, not time.
*Rewards teamwork
*A difficult but realistic elite area that is hard because of the enemies build, not because I decided to give them 60,000 Health
*Unfarmable

The Lore:
Somewhere in the depths of Tyria the Zaishen Order, a guild famous for knowing and sharing the way to the Hall of Heroes to all those who they deem worthy, lies in their underground temple. An ancient force from Tyria's past has affected parts of their vast Temple, and out of fear they have blocked off the lower sections. Now heroes, they call upon you to aid them, but be afraid, for whatever thing runs afoul in this temple, seems to have magic beyond the likes you've ever seen...

(ie: cliche villain makes cliche bad things happen and you the cliche hero must go do the cliche thing of saving people's butts. Go figure.)

The basics...:
This Elite Mission functions differently than the others in that when using a Scroll (which may be used in any place a passage scroll can be used) takes you to an outpost instead of the actual mission.

However, the scroll only works if you (and all other humans players in your party) have completed all 3 campaigns and Eye of the North in Normal Mode, otherwise it fails to function. Upon activation, the scroll removes all heroes and henchmen from your party.

This outpost is unique in that it is the only place in the game with a Skill Trainer that can teach you skills from any campaign & Eye of the North. Upon entering the outpost all people are afflicted by a "debuff" known as "Mysterious Curse".

The Rules of the Elite Mission:
The "Mysterious Curse" is a debuff that is constantly active even when in the Mission. It has the following effects:
*PvE-Only skills are locked and may not be used.
*Heroes may not be taken. (There is no henchmen in the outpost, so those don't fly either)
*All PvE split skills are now their PvP versions.
*All consumables fail to activate. (this includes beers, rice cake like items in town, tonics, festival items like the candy corn, birthday cupcakes, the Nightfall drake kabob stuff, EotN Consets, Scrolls of Rez, etc. They're all disabled.)

The Elite Mission's layout:
This elite mission is also technically a Dungeon, however unlike the EotN dungeons, this one does not have a defined layout, and it is not A to B progression. Instead this mission is 5floors (each takes about 20 minutes to beat, making this mission roughly a 1 hour and 40 minutes endeavor.) that are randomly chosen from a list of premade floor designs. Basically there is a lot of floor designs, all of which are not simply A to B, but have side rooms and such to explore, and they are randomly chosen, meaning each time you play the layout of the dungeon as a whole will be completely different.

The levels progress this way:
Level 1 = Old meta Prophecies builds, stuff like Boon Prot will be found here. Not very effective, decent players can beat easily.
Level 2 = Old meta Prophecies & Factions builds, stuff like AoD Shock, etc. Built to be a little bit toughter.
Level 3 = Old meta Prophecies & Factions & Nightfall builds. Harder still.
Level 4 = The above, but with slightly tougher & newer builds. This level also includes retired "Level 5" builds.
Level 5 = Current meta builds. (Also contains a final fight that is 1 random Guild Wars boss with better grouped "meta" enemies to support them.)

Each "build" may use old versions of certain skills where neccessary to make them work, and in the case of current meta builds, special versions of these skills are made so that even if Skill Updates change them, none of the builds will break in the future. If you "grab" these skills, you get the current PvP legal version, not the version they use.

The Elite Mission's Foes:
On top of this, each "room" like section has an encounter with some monsters. These monsters are "Possessed Zaishen [Class]", which are level 20 foes that have level 20 health and energy stats, with energy regen similar to their actual class. These monster groups are randomly chosen based on the floor you are on, earlier floors have early meta builds, with later floors having current meta builds.

These monsters use AI rules specific to this elite area:
*They move out of AoE as soon as they possibly can.
*They try to kite whenever possible.
*They know how to weapon swap intelligently.

When an enemy group is encountered, a blueish aura will block your escape/progress from this group, forcing you to fight them. Some areas have flags which can provide teams temporary Morale Boosts (which go away after you win), or do AoE damage to the team that doesn't have the flag, or environmental effects like spiked coral (PvP legal environmental effects, not the random PvE ones.), etc.

Since these rooms are randomly chosen and the enemy groups randomly picked, this means sometimes you or the enemy will have advantages/disadvantages. A good example is a room that might have a lot of rocky pillars and the enemy team is a ranger spike, they are at a severe disadvantage if the players play tactfully and use the pillars to block their arrows, but maybe another team will get the same enemy group but in a wide open spot, meaning they'll need to work harder together to win.

These enemy groups are usually well balanced, and since they use real player energy mechanics this suddenly changes how players should approach their team. Enemy teams will usually have answers to everything, which prevents solo or even team farming. Player teams need to take enchantment removal, and skills like [Diversion] and energy denial become more important making Mesmers very very useful. All these opponents use typical PvP gear, and thus have typical PvP health & energy values. This means player teams have to be balanced too, or else they will fail.

Here's some examples of just some of the types of enemy groups you'll encounter:
Level 1:
[Backbreaker][Crushing Blow][Irresistible Blow][Gale][Healing Signet][Frenzy][Sprint][Resurrection Signet]
["Charge!"][Sever Artery][Gash][Final Thrust][Healing Signet][Frenzy][Gale][Resurrection Signet]
[Crippling Shot][Apply Poison][Distracting Shot][Storm Chaser][Troll Unguent][Blackout][Distortion][Resurrection Signet]
[Crippling Shot][Apply Poison][Distracting Shot][Storm Chaser][Troll Unguent][Blackout][Distortion][Resurrection Signet]
[Migraine][Conjure Phantasm][Spirit of Failure][Power Drain][Drain Enchantment][Mantra of Persistence][Distortion][Resurrection Signet]
[Offering of Blood][Enfeeble][Faintheartedness][Life Siphon][Malaise][Parasitic Bond][Distortion][Resurrection Signet]
[Offering of Blood][Mend Ailment][Reversal of Fortune][Purge Conditions][Holy Veil][Divine Intervention][Guardian][Divine Boon]
[Offering of Blood][Mend Ailment][Reversal of Fortune][Dwayna's Kiss][Protective Spirit][Divine Intervention][Guardian][Divine Boon]
Notes:
-The Last Pride vs War Machine, Game 2 GWWC Finals, this was EvIL's build.
-Uses old versions of skills like Offering of Blood, Backbreaker, and Distortion.

Level 5:
[Dismember][Body Blow][Distracting Strike][Bull's Strike][Shock][Primal Rage][Rush][Resurrection Signet]
[Devastating Hammer][Crushing Blow][Hammer Bash][Bull's Strike][Flail][Distracting Strike][Enraging Charge][Death Pact Signet]
[Melandru's Shot][Distracting Shot][Savage Shot][Apply Poison][Natural Stride][Mending Touch][Hunter's Shot][Resurrection Signet]
[Power Block][Diversion][Cry of Frustration][Shame][Shatter Enchantment][Inspired Enchantment][Power Drain][Resurrection Signet]
[Lingering Curse][Suffering][Faintheartedness][Enfeeble][Signet of Humility][Waste Not, Want Not][Inspired Hex][Resurrection Signet]
[Patient Spirit][Infuse Health][Word of Healing][Draw Conditions][Protective Spirit][Guardian][Holy Veil][Disciplined Stance]
[Gift of Health][Guardian][Life Sheath][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Spirit Bond][Holy Veil][Aura of Stability][Aegis]
[Mark of Insecurity][Weapon of Shadow][Weapon of Warding][Wielder's Boon][Soothing Memories][Protective was Kaolai][Recuperation][Dash]

The Rewards:
Every room has a random chance to spawn a locked chest that requires a "Temple Key" that can only be bought in the outpost.

At the end of each level (which I remind you, take ~20 minutes to beat assuming you don't go into side rooms/secret passages) a Temple Chest will spawn, which gives every player of the party the following:
*X Temple Tokens where X = the level you just beat (ie: Level 1 gives you 1 Temple Token, this means players will get 15 Temple Tokens per full clear, not including rare drops from the possessed Zaishen.) (Temple Tokens are untradeable)
*Rare weapon skins have a chance to drop, much like the Zaishen chest.
*Additional rare new skins may drop (similar rarity as the MPB, this is to give new rare stuff to the economy)
*A 5th Level Temple Chest drops 1 Temple Shard (also untradeable)

Additional level Temple Chests may drop gems, etc.

At the very end of the 5th level and in the outpost there is a Rewards guy who can turn your Temple Tokens AND Temple Shards for various rewards:
-Rare "Zaishen Temple" prestige armor for each class (also requires money)
-Rare "Zaishen Temple" weapons.
-Special minipets only gottenable here
-Summoning Stones (that uses various builds found within)
-Various tonics (Shiro tonic anyone?)
-Temporary 1 hour item effects to make you stand out, such as a fiery effect for armor, or black angelic wings (similar to Para wings).

Some items cost money, some cost Temple Tokens, some cost Temple Tokens & Shards, some cost all 3, just depends. These are in fact a grind, however I think this grind is not bad considering the elite mission is a) hard, b) requires humans only, c) the items can't be traded and therefore bought, d) the elite is randomly generated making it more replayable. However, the costs for these items would be small, 1 full run could get you ~3-5 of the lower tier items (Less wanted tonic/sum stone).

Upon completion or failure of this mission, you are sent back to where you used your scroll, and must use another to get to the outpost.

So in summary, an elite area that goes through the "history of PvP" and uses groups of enemies that use builds that actually work together, act smartly, and require teamwork to get past.

What do you think?

err... you're describing a new game? I don't know but it seems impossible to let NPC AL run those builds like a real player could. This would be loads of work and, as ANet is working on GW2 and tries to keep us happy with new heroes and 2 hours during quests, this will be a little too much.

Wow. I like it. Although I'm not sure about having all of that extra stuff at the end. And maybe have the ability to stay in the outpost/return there once you beat the mission.

I can see that you put alot of thought into it and think it was well written. It is way to much work to be implemented in GW1 despite being a cool idea.

Also I think that even with a very good AI decent teams would not have a problem simply because it you bring the AI down to our level human teams will have every advantage, (except intrupting!)

Anyways nice write up and maybe something like this could exist in some form in GW2, if that still exists, j/k.

Actually the AI that we have now could run these builds pretty easily because of how the AI actually works (series of checks), the only hard part would be making them weapon swap and flag run and minute things like Gale chaining (which they might be able to do actually, since they can Quarter Knock.).

Even if they run bad builds, the Zaishen AI in the Isle of the Nameless shows that they can run these types of things. Obviously the AI can't split, that's why all the "rooms" are closed in spherical/square rooms where splitting isn't really needed. Obviously they wouldn't be able to perform them AS well as real players (although in some cases they could, ie: interrupts.), but the point is that the encounters are difficult and TEAMS, that require a challenge to overcome. This idea itself won't ever happen because let's face it: ArenaNet doesn't have the resources, but like other suggestions here it is more or less "if they did, I'd suggest they do this', and that is what you should judge this on, is if ArenaNet had the resources to make this the way I specified, would you like to see it?

/notsigned , if you want pvp, do some pvp.

I'd love to try it anytime I can! Are you looking for a job at Anet? (you'd deserve one anyway :P ) GJ dark.

I like it, but I don't see it happening in GW1. =/

How can you argue against all the overpowered crap in PvE and yet seem to think that if you took all that away these types of builds would not be the PvE meta? Outside of tank and spank ran by silly PuGs who think Paras suck now anyways, these same builds that you see in the Level 5 section would pretty much be ran, with minor variants, especially if the AI actually had good builds. This isn't about "it being PvP" this is about "running good builds" which is what would happen if a) the AI had good builds and b) all the overpowered crap was taken away.

There would be differences here and there, ie: [Eviscerate] is a weaker choice in PvE (although it'd be good here because the reasons Eviscerate sucks in normal PvE aren't here.) and [Primal Rage] is a lot more dangerous in HM (not as dangerous here), but essentially this is what it would be like. Back in OG Prophecies good people who grouped up for FoW/UW ran neigh similar builds to the "balanced" PvP meta in top end PvE back then barring a few changes here or there and so on (obviously not exact copies because that would be silly) to counter whats in there. No one does that anymore because of PvE skills, PvE split skills, exploitation of bad AI, and consets. They build around gimmicks and abuse all the above to win fast.

On top of this, it actually connects back to the original game design of PvE leading to PvP (see: desert missions) that ArenaNet intended. I really wish you could put more effort into your post instead of giving me one that isn't very specific or well explained, that doesn't help anybody.

EDIT:
Thanks for the comments though, everyone!

I had a similar idea.
/signed
I would not have the 4 campaigns req. though.
The weapons/armor should req. Onyx and diamonds. Give us a reason to keep them.
At the end there should also be Zanshin PvE skills trainer. Also add points to Zanshin title track after each level.
Add monster skills to the NPC's.

I like your idea in general, but your builds in practice have fatal flaw.

You are making AI with player-equivalent abilities to use PvP builds. I fear that it will get mercilessly slaghtered.

I would do away with moral boosts to make AI able to win by atrition and put there at least some stuff to cope with PvE madness or even design teambuilds with PvE gimmick in mind.

I would, for example make one team this:

6x P/Me with Signet of Disenchant and Hebreaker and some staying power
1x R/Me for tranquility and infuriating heat.
1x Rt/Me with token Hexbreaker some restoration.

Obviously, this is "No Cryways, mon!" team.

I like it, but at best we would only see something like this in GW2. This is way too complex at the moment for the programmers at GW1 to create but if this were thrown in GW2, I wouldn't mind taking a stab at it.
/signed

So Basically you want a PvP(more specifically a GvG) Elite Area.
/notsigned

/signed
we need more new stuff to the game!

Awesome idea. Don't see it happening though

/signed anyways

/notsigned

no matter how elite you want to make it there always will be people who find a way to exploit it

/signed but, do you think Anet can actually make AI do that? Look at our heroes now xD

I like it, but all those "disable everything that has to do with PvE" is a bit to0 much =]..
*also like the unfarmable part to0 xD*
AND i don't see it happening either =/

PvE Skills are disallowed.

I have to say I don't like the idea. The dungeon itself would be fun but there is no point in using pvp skills you think using pvp skills would make it harder to find a weakness/gimick/exploit. Your probably right but fact of the matter is Those builds will be set in stone thus eventually we will find a way to easily or atleast more easily destroy the entire dungeon in the shortest amount of time possible. It's simply the way skill based games work.

/signed like the idea alot,

the deep and urgoz, take like no coordination, Mesmer hex > CoP > PEWPEW > DONe

I had a similar idea.
/signed
I would not have the 4 campaigns req. though.
The weapons/armor should req. Onyx and diamonds. Give us a reason to keep them.
At the end there should also be Zanshin PvE skills trainer. Also add points to Zanshin title track after each level.
Add monster skills to the NPC's.

1) if what you say is true (if level5 doesn't change when meta changes), it doesn't remove the challenge and thus make it interesting; furthermore darkNecrid included an element of randomness in the dungeon design via maps changing, thus making it much less farmable (or at least not worth the efforts);

2) if what you say is not true, then it may be an argument towards the statement of PvPers that PvP > PvE (not taking into account that human > AI of course!)

Now, this is a nice way to move from PvE to PvP; but (if I may) not progressive enough: it shouldn't be a dungeon, but a "region" made of various maps where you can progress at your own pace (i.e. not spend 2h in a row but rather chunks of time, it's even a bit more casual player-friendly), but not changing the fact that failing will kick you out of the zone/region. I'd even add a few more levels with similar levels of difficulty to make the change even more progressive (when you teach, you always repeat yourself a lot), possibly with non-linear organisation (as in EotN's 3-way storyline). Add some training grounds in between levels, in particular at the beginning (for example, the Wintersday quest Strength of Snow was a nice dodging quest I can imagine one for spiking, one for splitting, etc. ... all of this can already be done of course, the point being of helping players go through the change). Of course these proposals make it much, much less "elite" ("Hey we're not noobs, we don't need your progressive-casual-player BS!"), but more "PvE2PvP".

And to be precise, here PvP=GvG. HBers will complain and people will invoke the fact that the "G" in GW is here for that. But there's no discussion here, we're in Sardelac

/signed for GW2
In GW1 this would be wayy to enormous of an undertaking to implement, and it seems like this would be better for a GW2 scenario, anyway.
Excellent research and ideas, I really hope ANet gets something like this down in GW2 .

I like everything here.

Personally, I think that the Order of Whispers would be better suited for the background. The Zaishen are situated on the Battle Isle and only control that one portal - while also acting similar to the Sunspears in that they fight off evil forces *why don't we see any of the Zaishen in the FoW I do not know*.

Disagree with how to get there, although I like the requirement. I think a quest would be more fun.

I question the no ale and the no heroes part. I understand limiting the heroes, but removing them all together would prevent parties who are unable to fill up the team with human players to give a real go. I say, make the mission hard enough to require 12 spots and limit everyone to one hero each - i.e., minimum of 6 people needed.

Only issue here is the random level generator idea. While a good concept, for those like myself who may want to explore a certain area, it might end up being 20 times going into the dungeon in order to get the level I want. Also, I think the finale level should not be randomly chosen, being a boss level with no continuing.

New bosses, do not re-use Khilbron, Shiro, etc. etc. If a new elite mission comes out, I want it to either focus on Menzies, Dhuum, or Lazarus. Or the "mysterious stranger" from the M.O.X. quests.

This is just putting PvP into PvE and hoping the AI can handle such builds. I highly doubt they can. I'm all for balanced builds and tricks and traps throughout elites that both harm and help your team, but don't rip things directly from PvP and only from PvP.

I have one issue:

This is an issue for two reasons. One, Linsey has stated that new weapon skins won't be easy (or they weren't at the time). Two, MPB rarity=weapons worth 3000 ectos (or 15,000,000g), pass.


Again, just for clearification, I disagree with the requirement to use a scroll ever time. If it were to be like Urgoz/Deep then sure, as you would be sent back to the mission outpost not the town prior - and there are more ways in.

I disagree with the "history of PvP" for two reasons: Limitations of AI to run builds and Limiting tricks and traps only to those used in PvP (add some flame traps, ice darts, catapults, I may consider that part gone then). Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against PvP, but I think you will be making it too dissimilar to PvE to call it PvE.

The builds are the biggest issue I see, but balanced builds are a must.

/signed after some tweaks and after the current elite areas get buffed (i.e., suggestions like those made here.

Edit:
At all those who say that it cannot be done for GW1, it can be. Linsey has said that some people working on GW2 work overtime to work on GW1, and I think the Live Team would be capable of pulling off a brand new area. 9 Levels made - levels 1 through 4 having a 1 in 8 chance of showing, then 1 in 7 on and on, making level 5 a set level.

The idea might take away a big monthly update or two, possibly *but unlikely, imo* three, but it can be done before the end of the summer, probably before the beginning of the summer.

I liked the idea at first. But then thought that dungeons are a tad annoying, and wished it could be explorable (as someone mentioned) with connecting outposts that can only be reached via zoning or logging back in (i.e. no map travel). I still liked the concept, however. And then I realized none this would never get implemented until GW2, then I realized I was just imagining how I wanted ALL pve to be in GW2 (and 1), and then I felt sad because it will never happen .

To all of you who say the AI cant do it, well frankly, you're wrong. Take a look at Mhenlo in the Norn Fighting Tourney. They can program the AI to do anything as long as its specific. The reason heroes cant do this stuff is because they have to be able to run any build not just one complicated one. Also they can make monster skills to be pre-nerf meta skills. That all being said, while this is extremely possible, its very improbable. A-net just doesn't have the resources. If you did ever see this it wouldn't be for at least a couple months after GW2 comes out in a sorrows furnace like update. I don't really like the Tokens thing.

Since everyone says this, I guess I'll explain.

They are PvP builds, but they are PvP balanced builds. I chose them for a reason, mostly because they are balanced builds, balanced builds are team builds that have an answer to anything they can face and aren't shutdown so easily (ie: not a gimmick like ___way or ____sike). Any attempt to give monsters actual builds that work together and have lots of teamwork and are good without broken monster skills would wind up looking very much like a PvP build for this reason.

Monsters not having good builds has been one of the problems with GW PvE that Anet chose to counteract by giving monsters insane numbers instead of giving them good bars, and these bars are tried and true, so far as that Anet gave EotN monsters gimped versions of PvP bars with big numbers/monsters skills. Remove the big numbers and the monster skills from the equation and add on not gimped and you're pretty much right where you are now. Given the nature of the elite mission, players would run similar bars, ie: Warriors in PvE would find [Bull's Strike] useful here as the enemies actually kite, Mesmers would find [Diversion] and various forms of e-denial useful since enemies don't have crazy energy values with insane energy regen, etc. (Meaning a Mesmer could be a Mesmer!)

Essentially, once you take out all the stupid stuff out of PvE and add in the clause "give the enemies good builds that work together" while not giving them monster skills, one way or another you're going to wind up with PvP-style builds, and I chose not to "gimp" them like Anet did and fix with bigger numbers because this is supposed to be an "Elite Mission".

Also I am fully confident the AI could handle it as long as they make the occasional small tweaks that I mentioned. The AI isn't as dumb as you think it is, it just does a poor job of showing how awesome it is currently in PvE because of the monsters having bad bars etc. But the AI is pretty intelligent with its series of checks. It sometimes uses skills dumbly (ie: using Castigation for damage and never actively using it for e-management), but otherwise it is very good.

Also I didn't mean the traps, those could still be in there, I meant the silly Environmental Effects like in the Factions Elite Missions, etc.

Either way, thanks for the hugeeee comment. Thanks everyone else too.

Oh, I know the AI would be able to handle certain builds. But I just dislike giving NPCs skills like Frenzy. But that is just personal preference/hate. Also, I have realized that my favorite enemies are the Charr in EN, which use old PvP builds. And there are the EN Mandragors which are just... well annoying, which use a well synced build (not sure if it's PvP based beside the Monster skill).

I personally disagree with not giving enemies monster skills, but I also disagree with those monster skills being Overpowered - I think they should just be skills that are unlike skills we can use. Not overpowered, not underpowered, fitting the build, and of course never nerf.

I also disagree with using the PvP versions of all skills for reasoning like [[Smiter's Boon], [[Avatar of Grenth], and [["For Great Justice!"]. Some PvP skill versions would be better to use *cough[[Shadow Form]cough* but not all because some were just slaughtered.

Also, I don't mean "don't put PvP in PvE" as much as I mean "don't take only from PvP." Go ahead and use PvP builds, but also come up with new balanced builds. I doubt that is too much for anyone to do. I make builds for my heroes that link with each other and my own easily - no gimmick behind them (like discordway or sabway) and no very OP'd PvE skill that I use (well, I do use Necrosis but that's the only one ^^). So it is possible to make a PvE-based balanced team set up without it being a gimmick and without it it being a PvP build.

tl;dr

/unsigned. Because you said "skill>time" but built in mandatory minimum completion times. How is that skill>time when it takes >time to complete it? Seriously.

There is no minimum mandatory completion times, if you somehow managed to beat it in 10 seconds, you would be able to.

Just because something takes time to do doesn't mean time is > skill. A team with no skill will get kicked out of the elite mission even if they spend all the time in the world in there (because the areas are blocked off, you can't avoid the encounters. You either win or die.), whereas a team with skill will progress. Skill is > time.

Ok, so instead of relying on a specific PvE meta that's currently in use, you want to make PvE'ers rely on a specific PvP meta and not get frustrated in the process. Everything in PvE is going to have a "fastest way to beat it" that will be published on PvX and anyone who doesn't fit exactly to that mold or who wants to try something different will be excluded. Then you find some team build that clears it in half the time using a skill on more characters than you would on a PvP team and you'd get this all over again: NERF NERF NERF!!! Ray of Judgement, or Hexway/blood spike come to mind.

The AI would move out of Ray of Judgment here (because they'll have that fixed if they were cool enough to do this), and Hexway/blood spike wouldn't stand a chance here at all. Those builds are good at farming bad players in PvP, but the AI isn't that bad (the AI is actually better than players in ways, which is why people take heroes in the first place, remember? And it'd actually be improved upon just for this area only too...)

PvE players wouldn't have to rely on a specific PvP meta at all, in fact since they are still fighting AI and not top notch players (something fairly impossible to do with any amount of resources as of now) there's still a little bit of flexibility of being able to get away with not running the best stuff, or not having 4 weapon sets for weapon swapping, it's just a lot less here than other areas, which I don't think is a bad thing considering it's an ELITE mission and gives classes new options they've never had before because of bad PvE design like actual e-denial and domination for Mesmers or actual support by Eles that doesn't get owned because lawl im a boss and conditions and hexes last half as long on me.

It's just things that normally are considered bad in PvE, might be a little more effective now, and things that are normally very good in PvE (Channeling, Soul Reaping are 2 good examples) might not be so hot, but that's nothing special as there is tons of areas in PvE where X sucks but Y owns due to whats in the area anyways and you have to (or rather, should) change your build to accommodate those things normally anyways.

This is actually a valid point. If for some reason a skill totally dominates your dungeon, therefore justifies a nerf by Anet, you are basically back to nerfing PvP again because of a skill that is overpowered in PvE and linked to it. The PvP-PvE split was made just to prevent this.

/notsigned....
go to HA omfg....

Well, there has hardly ever been a change that has been done out of PvE that was a nerf to PvP as well. In fact, I can't even name one because everything has always been nerfed around PvP in the first place.

Anyways, there is no 1 skill that could dominate it, as all the skills that could aren't PvP legal/are already nerfed in PvP. There's no way a single "skill" could possibly win this whole dungeon. Gimmicks are only useful vs bad players, and the AI is smarter than that already. I'm sure some gimmicks could win the first or second levels because these use older skills etc, but they won't get the rewards near as fast as groups who do full clears, and in fact won't be able to get some of the rewards at all w/o the Temple Shards.

Eventually people will find builds that win at it a bit faster than others etc, and I would have no problem with that. A metagame is inevitable, and like usual, PUGs will probably draw themselves to it (although inevitably this faster build would still be balanced.).

The reason these gimmicks/farms work in PvE now aren't here: broken PvE skills (Cry of Pain) & abusing groups of enemies that all have similar bars to one another. (dungeon farms / 55 monk / Shadow Form, etc.)

I think people are judging this idea at the light of two wrong standpoints (wrong because they do not correspond to dark's vision, which is to go back to the original GW vision of moving from PvE to PvP): judge it as a dungeon (it's not supposed to be a pure PvE place, neither a pure PvP place), or judge it from its feasability (yes it's unfeasable, as most Sardelac's suggestions anyway).

ATM AB is the best place to mix PvE and PvP, it's cool but not very serious from a PvP standpoint. What I'd like (in a dream world) is to make the move from PvE to PvP much less steeper, possibily creating during the process a more relaxed form of PvP, à-la AB but with more structure. I think that when PvP people put their mind to it as dark did, great things happen. I'd combine this with Billiard's (and others!) efforts to teach PvP (why not have a form of mentoring from an experienced PvPer in the Zaishen Temple outpost, where you could call the help of one of these guys in your party), ultimately we'd have a much smoother GW experience, not two camps fighter each others for intellectual or fun supremacy.

I'm surprised you didn't ask for a title to go with it.

Titles are pure time i and even if the title did nothing, all it would do is make rank elitism for PUGs occur which is kinda lame. Not really worth it even if the title took skill to get (ie: "1 point per full completion). Some people can be very skillful in short amounts of gameplay time, others may suck after 5000+ hours, so thats not helpful either.

Isn't that the point of ALL titles?