The OP suggests Warrior or Dervish as a better tank. P.S. Dervs have the same armor rating as Assassins and any PvE Assassin build should have [Critical Agility].
While on the topic, combining Critical Strikes with other weapon mastery attributes makes Assassins a viable replacement for some professions and in some instances (see Critscythe and Critbarrage) a preferred alternative to the original profession in certain situations.
The OP apparently believes that a frontline character should have the armor rating of a squishy as well, since Dervs are *obviously* a better candidate for a "tank" than an Assassin.
Ignoring all of this idiocy and stupidity, nearly any profession can be made IMBA in PvE. This argument is so incredibly dead and so incredibly pointless that I can't believe I'm actually responding to another one of these threads. There have been 55 Monks, Warrior farmers, IMBAgons, 330, 105, 130, 600, and any number of other farming based/tank based builds for nearly every profession. It's PvE. The whole point of the game is to find a set of skills on a set of coordinated players that is designed to exploit weaknesses in the builds, behavior, and characteristics of the AI. Perma-Shadow is good for some of these instances, bad for others. Just like everything else.
Why do you suppose that anet picked assassin class to be the BEST TANK in PvE?
FengShuiDove
cthulhu reborn
I agree with that. All the solo builds are proof that classes are imbalanced. Perhaps that's why GW2 will not have h/h anymore and just an optional side kick.
When people talk about tanking in GW being bad, they do have a point. I only take a warrior with me in a party when it doesn't really matter what I put in and, well, Jora does look good ^^
Seriously though, tanking depends on two things: being able to take a lot of damage and holding aggro.
Since, to tank properly you need to be able to take a lot of damage, but your party needs to stay well clear of you to not break the aggro, the tank has to be generally able to take a ton of damage and hold aggro on his/her own. It takes a full tank build to do that and often enough you still need support healing and as soon as someone gets near the tank, it's too easy to break the aggro. Alsp, do not forget that in a PvE area you have to fight very different types of enemies in any given area. This means a tank may have to face each and every type of damage in one session. That is also a reason why you need a full tanking build and as some stated, that does get boring.
I find that in Pve(except perhaps in places like UW and DoA) the best tanking is done by minions. There's more of them and they can actually bodyblock attackers by their numbers. In that sense it is better to have someone who lures with a longbow and an MM to meet the attackers.
Another reason why tanking doesn't work well with a full party is that the tank has to go forward and keep a distance from his party and therefore easily gets into a position where he aggroes more groups because of the insane patrolling overlaps between enemy groups. So it's normal to end up aggroing one or two more groups and then the amount of damage easily becomes more than the tank can handle, not to mention aggroing the groups mid fight when your spell casters are nearer and automatically break aggro and get attacked.
All in all GW has set everything in opposition to tanking. It's not impossible but it fails too easily making it useless for most players.
A warrior has become one of those classes that works fine in pvp but only exists in pve anymore since a lot of people simply just like warriors in general, no matter which game they play, only to find out they can't charge in and kill everything and then die by overextending. And of course that's always the monk's fault....(insert sarcasm)
When people talk about tanking in GW being bad, they do have a point. I only take a warrior with me in a party when it doesn't really matter what I put in and, well, Jora does look good ^^
Seriously though, tanking depends on two things: being able to take a lot of damage and holding aggro.
Since, to tank properly you need to be able to take a lot of damage, but your party needs to stay well clear of you to not break the aggro, the tank has to be generally able to take a ton of damage and hold aggro on his/her own. It takes a full tank build to do that and often enough you still need support healing and as soon as someone gets near the tank, it's too easy to break the aggro. Alsp, do not forget that in a PvE area you have to fight very different types of enemies in any given area. This means a tank may have to face each and every type of damage in one session. That is also a reason why you need a full tanking build and as some stated, that does get boring.
I find that in Pve(except perhaps in places like UW and DoA) the best tanking is done by minions. There's more of them and they can actually bodyblock attackers by their numbers. In that sense it is better to have someone who lures with a longbow and an MM to meet the attackers.
Another reason why tanking doesn't work well with a full party is that the tank has to go forward and keep a distance from his party and therefore easily gets into a position where he aggroes more groups because of the insane patrolling overlaps between enemy groups. So it's normal to end up aggroing one or two more groups and then the amount of damage easily becomes more than the tank can handle, not to mention aggroing the groups mid fight when your spell casters are nearer and automatically break aggro and get attacked.
All in all GW has set everything in opposition to tanking. It's not impossible but it fails too easily making it useless for most players.
A warrior has become one of those classes that works fine in pvp but only exists in pve anymore since a lot of people simply just like warriors in general, no matter which game they play, only to find out they can't charge in and kill everything and then die by overextending. And of course that's always the monk's fault....(insert sarcasm)
Tyla
Some people would still recognise tanks as people who build their skill bar up to do that task solely. I am part of that crowd and recognise the gathering and building up of enemies for defensive, and possible offensive purpose as "managing agro" over "tanking", which means, to my side of the crowd devoting yourself to the task.
Now, we look at most tanking builds and what do we see? Every single skill has defensive purpose only usable on yourself. The only exception to this, would be skills such as "I Am Unstoppable!" because it allows an anti-knockdown that has a decent duration, can't be stripped and has an armour buff aswell. Adding to this is that there are limited skills that negate the effects of a knockdown, either too flimsy in duration / recharge ("Brace Yourself!", "Don't Trip!") or only affect one person for that time (Aura of Stability). You also see knockdown in PvE to be violently pushed in, for example, you see giants Stomping you a lot of the time, and possible Earth Shakers. Almost all knockdowns in PvE are extremely powerful used against you, because of sheer numbers. Back on the topic of tanking, people rely too much on a large amount of skills used for defense. You look at the Obsidian Tank, and you think "shit, how many self-defense skills does this bar need?" - that, aswell as the speed turned down by an incredible amount. One or two defensive skills only appliable to yourself, assuming that that area of defense is limited (again, knockdown) is a "fair enough" thing. Six, jeez, overdoing it. The Shadow Form 'Sin allows you to have incredibly high defense in two skills, three and your secondary excluding consumables, and only one maxed attribute. This allows a heavy investment in your offensive potential.
In short, Shadow Form allows "tanks" to take on a decent offensive turn aswell as a decent defensive turn because it gives you a high amount of usable attribute points and skill slots to take advantage of.
Now, we look at most tanking builds and what do we see? Every single skill has defensive purpose only usable on yourself. The only exception to this, would be skills such as "I Am Unstoppable!" because it allows an anti-knockdown that has a decent duration, can't be stripped and has an armour buff aswell. Adding to this is that there are limited skills that negate the effects of a knockdown, either too flimsy in duration / recharge ("Brace Yourself!", "Don't Trip!") or only affect one person for that time (Aura of Stability). You also see knockdown in PvE to be violently pushed in, for example, you see giants Stomping you a lot of the time, and possible Earth Shakers. Almost all knockdowns in PvE are extremely powerful used against you, because of sheer numbers. Back on the topic of tanking, people rely too much on a large amount of skills used for defense. You look at the Obsidian Tank, and you think "shit, how many self-defense skills does this bar need?" - that, aswell as the speed turned down by an incredible amount. One or two defensive skills only appliable to yourself, assuming that that area of defense is limited (again, knockdown) is a "fair enough" thing. Six, jeez, overdoing it. The Shadow Form 'Sin allows you to have incredibly high defense in two skills, three and your secondary excluding consumables, and only one maxed attribute. This allows a heavy investment in your offensive potential.
In short, Shadow Form allows "tanks" to take on a decent offensive turn aswell as a decent defensive turn because it gives you a high amount of usable attribute points and skill slots to take advantage of.
Abedeus
This can be fixed by adding a "threat" on scale 1-1000.
All characters start by having a threat of 1. For every 10 damage, you get 10 threat. For every 15 damage, you get 10 threat.
At 250 threat (so with 250 damage dealt) your aggro bubble grows by 10%, so monsters aggro you from greater distance.
At 500 threat, it's 25%. At 750 threat (Cry of Pain with 8 mobs will produce that amount at r8) it's 35%. And at 1000 threat it's 50%. You aggro much more this way.
It's pretty inferior to existing threat systems, but it's one of the few possible in GW without changing the engine.
Note, bubble change won't affect spell range, only aggro.
All characters start by having a threat of 1. For every 10 damage, you get 10 threat. For every 15 damage, you get 10 threat.
At 250 threat (so with 250 damage dealt) your aggro bubble grows by 10%, so monsters aggro you from greater distance.
At 500 threat, it's 25%. At 750 threat (Cry of Pain with 8 mobs will produce that amount at r8) it's 35%. And at 1000 threat it's 50%. You aggro much more this way.
It's pretty inferior to existing threat systems, but it's one of the few possible in GW without changing the engine.
Note, bubble change won't affect spell range, only aggro.
Clarissa F
For whoever talks about SF being meant to be perma, you must have been playing the game less than a few years. It was meant to help a spike, through going into a crowd of baddies, killing the high-value target, then getting out before it drops and you die. Worse comes to worst, you get killed after that and get rezzed. Hell, I thought it kinda worthless, especially with MS/DB spam around.
Face it, while GW was based on team pvp play more than tank-n-spank, most people in GW came from games revolving around the Trinity: tank-damage-healer. It's natural they will bring this mentality and these habits with them. The good thing is, the way GW is designed, the smart ones will see that the tank-n-spank model isn't the rule, and that in this world, killing fast always beats any other technique. A high damage/condition group will always beat a tank-n-spank group in GW for sheer efficiency and fun.
Face it, while GW was based on team pvp play more than tank-n-spank, most people in GW came from games revolving around the Trinity: tank-damage-healer. It's natural they will bring this mentality and these habits with them. The good thing is, the way GW is designed, the smart ones will see that the tank-n-spank model isn't the rule, and that in this world, killing fast always beats any other technique. A high damage/condition group will always beat a tank-n-spank group in GW for sheer efficiency and fun.
Damian979
Assassins being the "best tank in the game" is a bit over generalized imo unless you are talking about god awful cryway groups. Anywhere in the game that a primary focal point for mob control is really necessary has skills that will hit through shadowform leaving it up to the backline to keep the sin alive just like any other "tank" would need to be. It's only "god mode" in places that you shouldn't be having difficulty with a normal team setup anyway.
Ideally you want enemy focus to be on your frontline which is where the concept of "tanking" comes in. Now, if you are a party of one then that character must have skills that can allow him/her to be the focus of attention without dying but you aren't. You have a team that hopefully has a decent set of skills them selves, and with minimal effort can turn any melee character into a "tank" in the sense that they are taking the most damage without getting beat down.
The only time I ever use shadowform is for farming. Otherwise if I am the only melee in the team, I might bring a couple self sustaining skills but mostly damage and a solid team setup that will keep me alive while I do what a sin is the best at, which is killing shit very effectively. When things are dead, you no longer need to "tank" them.
Ideally you want enemy focus to be on your frontline which is where the concept of "tanking" comes in. Now, if you are a party of one then that character must have skills that can allow him/her to be the focus of attention without dying but you aren't. You have a team that hopefully has a decent set of skills them selves, and with minimal effort can turn any melee character into a "tank" in the sense that they are taking the most damage without getting beat down.
The only time I ever use shadowform is for farming. Otherwise if I am the only melee in the team, I might bring a couple self sustaining skills but mostly damage and a solid team setup that will keep me alive while I do what a sin is the best at, which is killing shit very effectively. When things are dead, you no longer need to "tank" them.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by romeus petrus
The bottom line is SF is what turned sins into uber tanks way better than professions meant to tank like wars and dervs.
Is this a bad joke or something?
Tamuril elansar
tanking is bad.
wtfisgoingon
Canthan Assassins were chosen to be the best tanks in GW because they had one ability that no other melee class had, this ability is called "Chi Gong" AKA Shadow Form.
romeus petrus
Balky
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon;
Canthan Assassins were chosen to be the best tanks in GW because they had one ability that no other melee class had, this ability is called "Chi Gong" AKA Shadow Form.
Chi Gong means to breathe out
Fah Gong ( Fire Out ) is the technique with which it is combined....one takes your opponents energy, you divert it, and at the point he is extended beyond his centre, return it with your own energy to produce a counterstrike far in excess of the effort you`ve put in .....both are basic elements of Tai Chi Chaun, practised in whats known as Shadow Hands ( Sticky Hands to some )
Lesson over, please continue.
Chi Gong means to breathe out
Fah Gong ( Fire Out ) is the technique with which it is combined....one takes your opponents energy, you divert it, and at the point he is extended beyond his centre, return it with your own energy to produce a counterstrike far in excess of the effort you`ve put in .....both are basic elements of Tai Chi Chaun, practised in whats known as Shadow Hands ( Sticky Hands to some ) Lesson over, please continue.
Carboplatin
tanks are bad?
for most of PvE yes, but..
For DoA HM or NM, a tank can make or break a team. Assassins make some of the best tanks in DoA.
for most of PvE yes, but..
For DoA HM or NM, a tank can make or break a team. Assassins make some of the best tanks in DoA.
Steps_Descending
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Now, we look at most tanking builds and what do we see? Every single skill has defensive purpose only usable on yourself. The only exception to this, would be skills such as "I Am Unstoppable!" because it allows an anti-knockdown that has a decent duration, can't be stripped and has an armour buff aswell. Adding to this is that there are limited skills that negate the effects of a knockdown, either too flimsy in duration / recharge ("Brace Yourself!", "Don't Trip!") or only affect one person for that time (Aura of Stability). You also see knockdown in PvE to be violently pushed in, for example, you see giants Stomping you a lot of the time, and possible Earth Shakers. Almost all knockdowns in PvE are extremely powerful used against you, because of sheer numbers. Back on the topic of tanking, people rely too much on a large amount of skills used for defense. You look at the Obsidian Tank, and you think "shit, how many self-defense skills does this bar need?" - that, aswell as the speed turned down by an incredible amount. One or two defensive skills only appliable to yourself, assuming that that area of defense is limited (again, knockdown) is a "fair enough" thing. Six, jeez, overdoing it. The Shadow Form 'Sin allows you to have incredibly high defense in two skills, three and your secondary excluding consumables, and only one maxed attribute. This allows a heavy investment in your offensive potential.
In short, Shadow Form allows "tanks" to take on a decent offensive turn aswell as a decent defensive turn because it gives you a high amount of usable attribute points and skill slots to take advantage of.
Tyla I don't think you ever spoke better. That and the fact that you are NOT flamming pro-tank-ers. Are you sure noone hacked your account? Were you kicked from TAM? Are you feeling well? Want some water (10g to the first one getting the reference)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
I shall append this:
there is difference between "tank(1)" and "tank(2)". First one goes all the way into making defensive skillbar, neglecting offense. Success of group wholy depends on him gathering all the aggro and staying alive. Should he fail in either, party wipes because such party will not be able to handle aggro spills. Other thank is scrapegoat that runs in combat with few prots to make mobs waste skill recharges, hes is not exctly carefull about attracting all the aggro and its okay. In any case, group has monks who know what prots are for and can handle aggro spills/deaths/whatever. Just a question. In your theory, is the tank2 supposed to keep the aggro of the mobs he already has while the rest kill the monk, or is he just there to pop the cooldown? If he stays still, then some aggro should break when a mob is attacked or it has a skill to use on someone else. (hex/enchant removal, interupt, ward...) [edit ]At that point the party should only be attacked by the support classes and the occasional real attacker who broke free of the tank. Easing the burden for the monk.[ end-edit] If he moves, all aggro should break quickly. In the first case, we can say the war is tanking, even if he is running a shock axe build with 2 blocking stances to soften the burden. In the later, he is simply pulling and taking the first blow. Damian979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balky
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more stuff
Translated and correctly spelled Qigong means cultivating energy. Originated in Buddhism by Taoist monks before the creation of the Shaolin Temple. It's practice has been adapted to improve mental awareness in martial arts but has nothing to do with actual combat. Kind of like it has nothing to do with this thread....interesting.
Useless sidetracking over, please continue
Useless sidetracking over, please continue
Balky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian979;
Translated and correctly spelled Qigong means cultivating energy. Originated in Buddhism by Taoist monks before the creation of the Shaolin Temple. It's practice has been adapted to improve mental awareness in martial arts but has nothing to do with actual combat. Kind of like it has nothing to do with this thread....interesting.
Useless sidetracking over, please continue You forgot the stuff i originally responded to
And why does everyone think every Chinese martial art is Shaolin ? They`re not !!!
Btw, i could be wrong, but isn`t the monk dance routine Cheng style Tai Chi Chuan
Useless sidetracking over, please continue You forgot the stuff i originally responded to
And why does everyone think every Chinese martial art is Shaolin ? They`re not !!!
Btw, i could be wrong, but isn`t the monk dance routine Cheng style Tai Chi Chuan
wtfisgoingon
Oh for the ones who lack intellectual brain cells, I was only using sarcasm applying the concept of Chi Gong to Shadow Form.
MisterT69
Quote:
Originally Posted by romeus petrus
Up till the introduction of the God Mode AKA the SF buff, the classical frontliners or "tanks" used to be dervs or wars, I didnt mean that tanking is what wars and dervs were supposed to be doing.
Up until the SF buff, eles were the true tanks of GW. They took less damage than any warrior or dervish tank considering most of those defensive tanks needed earth magic spells to keep them alive. There's no reason why people should reserve themselves to war/derv tanks considering they are completely inferior to an ele tank, which in turn is inferior to the assassin tank. Although as well all know, unless you're balling 2-3 mobs together for a big Cry of Pain spike, tanking is fairly pointless in PVE.
And honestly, it's all about what you find fun. Most people love watching mobs of 15-20+ foes being spiked to death in a matter of seconds. I'm certainly one of those people
. And again this does go w/a previous argument I saw in this post. SF sins the best tanks? Probably not the BEST, considering a monk can tank most mobs with just a smiter behind him. SF tank needs an armada of cryers behind him to make the damage. 600's just stand there while mobs kill themselves trying to hurt the 600.
And honestly, it's all about what you find fun. Most people love watching mobs of 15-20+ foes being spiked to death in a matter of seconds. I'm certainly one of those people
. And again this does go w/a previous argument I saw in this post. SF sins the best tanks? Probably not the BEST, considering a monk can tank most mobs with just a smiter behind him. SF tank needs an armada of cryers behind him to make the damage. 600's just stand there while mobs kill themselves trying to hurt the 600.
wtfisgoingon
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterT69
Up until the SF buff, eles were the true tanks of GW. They took less damage than any warrior or dervish tank considering most of those defensive tanks needed earth magic spells to keep them alive. There's no reason why people should reserve themselves to war/derv tanks considering they are completely inferior to an ele tank, which in turn is inferior to the assassin tank. Although as well all know, unless you're balling 2-3 mobs together for a big Cry of Pain spike, tanking is fairly pointless in PVE.
And honestly, it's all about what you find fun. Most people love watching mobs of 15-20+ foes being spiked to death in a matter of seconds. I'm certainly one of those people. And again this does go w/a previous argument I saw in this post. SF sins the best tanks? Probably not the BEST, considering a monk can tank most mobs with just a smiter behind him. SF tank needs an armada of cryers behind him to make the damage. 600's just stand there while mobs kill themselves trying to hurt the 600.
why do people use SF sins to tank, and not 600 monks to tank in PvE? since you said 600 monks are superior in tanking why no one shouts "LF 600 for HM FOW CLEAR!"
hmm?
And honestly, it's all about what you find fun. Most people love watching mobs of 15-20+ foes being spiked to death in a matter of seconds. I'm certainly one of those people
. And again this does go w/a previous argument I saw in this post. SF sins the best tanks? Probably not the BEST, considering a monk can tank most mobs with just a smiter behind him. SF tank needs an armada of cryers behind him to make the damage. 600's just stand there while mobs kill themselves trying to hurt the 600.
why do people use SF sins to tank, and not 600 monks to tank in PvE? since you said 600 monks are superior in tanking why no one shouts "LF 600 for HM FOW CLEAR!"hmm?
Unreal Havoc
Elephantaliste
id rather any melee class character do tanking job than healer caster...
i mean what the point RPGs if one profession can do everything, healing, tanking, killing, ...
i mean what the point RPGs if one profession can do everything, healing, tanking, killing, ...