Was This Guy Hacking?

I was in RA, on my warrior.
And I went for a Dervish, which he could somehow consistantly hit into 250 on me, even though I have Full knight's Insignias, and a rune of Superior Absorbtion.
Sadly, I have no proof as I was getting angry at the game already; took it as a final straw and Rage Quit.
If he wasn't, how did he manage to get such high damage?
I tried with a PvP Dervish using Vow of Strength and 16 Scythe Mastery with 15 Earth Prayers, I was hitting about 170.
So, was he hacking?

No, Could have used sundering weapon, shadowy burden, Judge's insight, you may have been under a armor skill, any number of things, but no, you can hit those numbers on a warrior with a derv.

ur exaggerating or were frenzied

there r no hax in gw unlike in wow/war

250dmg per hit means dead in 2hits
so there is no "constantly hit me for 250"...

+1 for the one who thaught about the facts before posting

I didn't realize people only had 500 health in pvp.

Why would anyone bother hacking just so they can win RA??

no deep wound on melee = fail

knight's insignias and sup absorption only reduce physical damage. you also only have 80 armor vs elemental. he was probably a conjure derv and he was probably hitting crits a lot (maybe you were running away from him when he hit you). you may have had cracked armor. a lot of things can contribute to a derv doing big damage to a warrior. even so, 250 is an exaggeration unless you were under frenzy or something.

I used to get large numbers on Dervish just by playing Avatar of Lyssa. +50 to foes activating skills hurts.

To get from there to 250, stack an attack skill, and possibly VoS or smiting enchantment on Dervish or Frenzy or Cracked Armor on you. In fact, I think that AoL + plain attack skill with a damage bonus + crit could be enough, but that'd need testing.

I don't think it could've been a Conjure, as conjure damage shows as a separate number.

Edit: That's what I get for posting late at night (or early in the morning). I remembered the Conjure nerf the wrong way. It actually adds to the damage, so it could've easily been another thing to use.

Also, to reiterate snaek's point...

THERE IS NO HACKING IN GW.

It would be impossible to alter skills in that way in an online game since to do so would require an attack on the game's sever, not your client. Unlike games that have had hacking (like Diablo 2 or Counterstrike) GW and most online games are run mainly outside your computer.

Either you are leaving off some facts, were mistaken, or the other guy just had a very specific build/skill set up.

No damage boosting hacks in the game, KTHXBAI.

You could have been using healsig or PR, or other thiongs already mentioned.

Heh, this one almost made me spew beer out my nose!

GW seems as hack riddled to me as Diablo2 used to be. Dupe friendly, with plenty of exploits to be had. All these GW boot-lickers here are pretty naive, claiming no hacks are possible in GW. You just need to find out where the code breaks down, from certain specific sequences of skills/events. They can't test all the 'corners' to ensure no unintended interaction from a rare but potential sequence of events.

Many times just recently, I've had 2 second cast skills insta-cast, and skills that require 45 seconds recharge instantly recharge as well (this while PvP'ing the 4 NPC for the daily 2k balthazar faction).

But as to OP - what if he was riddled with curses, like cracked armor/etc and the derv was buffed with something like order of pain/brutal weapon/etc... I know those buffs dont combine (nor with ele conjure/etc), but could it come close?

Don't forget with the server-side lag, damage might get combined from 2-3 attacks much later, all at once...

Edit: Wouldn't combat logs be nice? LOL.

To Coney, There aren't +8 skill buffs with 50% to all resistances in GW as far as I know, so no way can it be compared to some versions of D2, and what sounds like you described in zaishen is a 40/40 set and a morale boost, and as far as I know...lagged damage doesn't compile into one...it would just show more numbers, not higher numbers.

My intentions here are not to haggle about this game <> that game, but rather to focus more on the basic premise that all programs are coded poorly. I refer specifically to the typical results of code review, and the overwhelming inadequacies in currently released code.

For example, take 2 GW skills with if/then clauses. What is the exact code path when the code fails one but passes the other? How are these actually ordered? What happens when 1 or the other is processed first? How about threading, and register results not yet updated (GW-wiki seems to crash inordinately A LOT these days due to spin-lock)...

These are very common code issues, usually referred to as bugs ONLY when aberrant behaviour *IS DETECTED*. When only a few know of these 'bugs', they become exploits, or hacks (until patched/fixed, of course). [The spice is the worm, the worm is the ...]

To imply that the armor/health structure similarities to some other [buggy] game have anything to do with whether basic compiler (in/out of) ordering decisions (or incomplete condition checking) are to blame - is to place the blame on the irrelevant. The similarities heretofore (e.g. bugginess) are mostly due to incompetence/lack of rigor - rather than some sort of ethereal connection between armor rating and skill sets/resistances.\

Edit - the 40/40 argument is good for cast time, but I always watch the cast bar and have seen it even when using 1/4s skills. As to the skill recharge, it was 4 seconds after casting (fire attunement), and I had just gotten into combat (none dead), so no morale boost possible (I've never noticed morale boost in PvP).

EDIT - WOULDN'T COMBAT LOGS BE NICE.

LOL Coney. How about instead of random speculating (read paranoia without a speck of evidence), you actually point out a time where somebody was hacking in PvP. Go on, I'm waiting...

waren't u using a 40/40 set maybe? i have also managed to insta cast [wastrel's worry] using 9 fast casting and a 40/40 dom set,u can also achieve insta cast for example with [healer's boon],[holy haste] than cast [patient spirit],if u use an emote like /dance ,it will not 'break' the emote

Lies. [[Holy Haste] ends if you cast another enchantment.

Don't use those in PvP. They're nearly useless after the change to Physical.

Read descriptions for [[Frenzy], [[Healing Signet], and [[Primal Rage] again if you were using those.

Scythe hits in that range are certainly possible, but you are exaggerating their frequency.

I wasn't. He hit them easily, and I wasn't using Frenzy or anything; I'm not a god damned retard.

Hmm I messed up - it was a 5 sec skill (not 2 sec) that insta cast without a spell bar displayed (meteor shower). Happened again today - it was much faster than 1.25 second cast. STILL have yet to see all my skill timers reset in PvP due to morale boost, so I call shenanigans on that moral boost BS...

As to bugs, wanna get into that then, mr NON-paranoid? I solo bosses often. A *CERTAIN* ele boss always (read: EVERY TIME) manages to hit me with stone daggers *MORE THAN 5 SECONDS AFTER HE IS ALREADY DEAD*. A-yup, I kill him, run to the loot, pick it up, then take damage and see the damage skill icons. No lag, - it happens every time, more than 5 seconds later.

Not buggy? How many times have I clicked on the flag to locate my h/h, only to click 1/2/3 more times before it registers? Nice mouse click buffer...

Still not buggy? How many times have I switched weapon set (after 5 seconds of doing NOTHING), then activated some skill - only to see my weapon set *REVERT* to the prior one.

COME ON. Enough boot licking, already.

Realize, that I haven't yet *EVEN* brought client-side *trust* issues into play. Read into this what you will, but most client-server games give a great deal of trust to the client. Such as, client registers which store client speed, client registers which store spell cast times/recover times. To not do so, results in serious server-side load/lag issues...

EDIT: FWIW, I was rolling the MOX quests for my dervish, and was shocked to see my lvl 20 derv doing only 30-80 damage to lvl 12 mobs using 14 scythe skills. Something looks off here... My ranger was plucking NON_SKILL arrows into said-same mobs for 100-133. I hear someone *GUESSING* this is because scythe attacks *CAN* hit 3 at a time, so they div/3...

Boot licking? Maybe if these problems were be reported by other people (or by someone whose PvP experience was more RA) I'd actually consider them credible enough to care.

Bugs =/= hacks

This is what I see them as.

Bugs -- Something that randomly happens in game that isn't supposed to
Glitch -- A bug that can be repeated but doesn't really serve a purpose
Exploit -- a bug that is easily repeatable for positive gain
Hacking -- using 3rd party programs to change something in game

So the instances your telling me are bugs and glitches, not really hacks.

Imo

@coney
like bobulation said, exploits and hacks r completely different

but to expand on it...
exploits r taking advantage of flaws in the games coding
hacks r modifying the code through the use of programs

d2...wow...warhammer...they all have hacks
its hard to stop them because its hard to be fully "hack-proof"
(many free mmo's use anti-cheat programs such as gameguard, and even fps games have anti-cheat programs like punkbuster...but even these have workarounds)

duping in gw was an exploit (at least the vambrace one im thinkin of iirc)
and was therefore easily removed with a bugfix update

since hacks r much harder to prevent...
many companies instead rely on catchin the culprit in the act, and banning them

d2 it was more of a prob because its easier to get away wit it

wow and warhammer, u will get banned on-site for using hacks
and in pvp its easily noticeable, so no one is dumb nuff to use one
(especially if they take months to get their chara pvp-ready)


gw may or may not have had hax over its 3years...
but certainly not in pvp to the point where u need to worry

Wasnt there a guild that got banned a while back for being able to use 12 chars in GvG? (Probably was defined as an exloit rather than a hack though).

That sounds halarious, wish i had seen that.

And coney, I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon and say that you need to look up the different between hacks, bugs and exploits. A couple of the problems you've mentioned sound like lag (especially the stone daggers one, the server lagged while the daggers were in flight). As for skill combinations, your talking theoretical here. We've been bug testing for three almost four years now, true we find new bugs and exploits after every patch, but usually they're pretty obvious. Theres a reason you aren't seeing people running around one hitting eachother.

I'm not saying that its not possible to hack, I'm saying that its extremely hard because most data is server side, not client side. (I.e. your client updates based on the server, instead of the server updating to match your client. Thats what allows most hacks in WOW and WAR. D2 even stored character data client side, making it one of the easiest games ever to hack.)

It wasnt a hack it was a bug involving teams formed in canthan elite mission. No one was banned.

To clarify the technical bits and vocabulary (and at a high level of abstraction, because in details it's slightly more subtle) so that some confusions can be avoided (I haven't looked at the details of the OP yet):

A "bug" is software lingo for some part of a software not working properly or with unexpected result, generally the result of the developper not having taken a particular situation into account properly. For example, the character avatar not being drawn properly on the screen.

A "vulnerability" is a part of the program that lends itself to a "security risk", whether it's due to a bug in the software or a feature of the software that wasn't implemented to prevent that risk from happening (for example: sending in-the-clear an information that should be hidden, like a password). A bug that is not a vulnerability is sometimes called a "glitch", it's simply some part of the software behaving strangely/unexpectedly (for example being unreachable when in a particular spot in the map).

Not all vulnerabilities lead to "security attacks", also called "exploits", where the vulnerability is used by the hacker to gain an advantage over the user. In the previous example, the in-the-clear text may not actually be visible to anyone because it's stored somewhere that is not reachable (e.g. in a part of the memory that only some priviledged software can access).

An "exploit" is a piece of software that will provoke and use a vulnerability to do something malicious/nasty, possibly modifying bits and pieces of software that the attack leads to an unexpected/forbidden situation. Hacking is the process of finding vulnerabilities and for each of them trying to get an exploit to do something for the hacker. There has to be the intention to break something, whether intentionally or by negligence.

Technically speaking, using 3rd party programs to gain an in-game advantage is not considered hacking, that's why EULAs are so important ("unfair advantage", or else you could be sued and hit very badly). It's considered hacking by most people who are unaware of the technicalities because it sounds like manipulating software for something bad. But technically speaking, it's just "cheating".

Hacking breaks software, while 3rd party programs/cheats simply go around the software to use it to perform something "valid" (but not "legal") that the game devs haven't foreseen. You fix a "glitch" while you "patch" a vulnerability (but technicaly this is the same thing: change the source code of the program).

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik 40/40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coney 40/40

Quote:

Originally Posted by legacyofkain85 40/40

There is no such thing as a 40/40 set in GW. The math is multiplicative, not additive. The set is 36/36 4/4.

(Fril is all up in this with the words, so I'll be all up in it with the numbers. Plus, it really annoys me that everybody and their brother says 40/40)

And besides all this being ridiculous, who would hack their client to do more damage in an RA match? It's damn near impossible, since it would take more than just hacking the client, and why? If you can hack there, why not hack something more important that will give you more gold or make you unkillable or something else better than just damage in an RA match?

Honestly, that's the dumbest thing I have ever heard of.

Ty Faer But you know, sometimes groups of people force the meaning of something to change, so when they say "40/40" they actually even don't know that it's 36/36 because they didn't do the maths

You're right Katsumi, and your post reminded me of something very important:

in GW, the client does very little things, mostly cosmetic/graphics, no number crunching, statistics or even time management (although I haven't looked at 1/4 casts in details), it's mostly on the server. And you are in wonderland if you think there's any hacking you can do over there. So unless it's part of the game mechanics working strangely (such as armor not being applied or wrong interaction of a few skills, that's a "glitch"), then there's no way anything that unexpected can happen.

Hacking is the new urban myth, it's cool and everyone can do it. Script kiddies are the mental plague of our electronic societies, it's like giving a M16 gun to 12 years old, except it does look much less dangerous than a weapon.

Sorry for the off-topic, but it's sometimes good to put back some sense into the non-sense.

Again, today - instant meteor shower cast. Seems to happen every other day, and I only use the skill about 3-5 times a day... Definitely not a 4% occurrance, nor a 1.25s cast.

And how about cancelling skills - isn't the [esc] key supposed to do it? I don't know how many times I've cast a 1s skill - only wanting to cancel it, rapidly hitting [esc] and then strafing back/forth, to no avail. I have *YET* to be able to cancel out of a 1sec cast (with 100 pings and GREEN light).

But what I love most - insta-cast skills that lock my client for 3-4 seconds, when NOTHING was queued prior. This always gets me pissed to the point of rage-quit...

Admit it BOOT LICKERS, the game is buggy as all-hell. And hacks *ARE EXACTLY* taking advantage of exploits (as are 3rd party client register/memory editors).

EDIT: (continue to avoid it plz, the thread will be eternal then) WOULDN'T A COMBAT LOG BE NICE? Or, how about that PUNKBUSTER-like utility...

omg coney! stop hacking!!!
or we'll ban u!!


actually...can we ban him anyways? -___-;

I've used MS thousands of times and never, ever had that happen. Please show us a video of that.

The game is not buggy to the point of making it unplayable, rather the contrary. I suspect you're simply inventing stuff to make it look like this. And hacks take advantage of a "vulnerability", they "exploit" it, hence their alternative name. Changing the appearance of things does not make a "valid" hack, any1 with a bit of tech skill can change the client window and, say, multiply the damage by 100, but it's not really happening.

So you're mem-editing? Let's talk dirty man. It's cool to h4ck0rz. TrustNo1.

I find the lack of proof in this thread hilarious as well.

I've had Met Shower do an 'instant cast' a heap of times in HA, here is my reasoning;

Half cast triggers, making it 2.5
OTHER half cast triggers, making it 1.25
GW rounds down and doesn't display a cast bar.

Alright, unless anyone has proof of someone hitting 250 constantly/instant meteor shower (without glyph of sac)/whatever else has been said in this thread, this thread is quite pointless.