dervish skill suggestions

tuperwho

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Tenacious Knights of Doom [TKD]

Hi all,

I'm a huge fan of coming up with skill combo's/builds on my own, instead of just copying the cookie cutters. I like to think that they're more effective, since I know the skills and have implemented them to fit together (I of course concede that established builds are just that b/c they're known to be powerful, but humor me if you will). I've done my homework, looking at skills on wiki, and seeing what people like on pvx, plus trying them on my own.... so I'm working on creating something to my own tastes. I'm looking for suggestions from those with more experience to max my build (and also to narrow it down from 11 or so possibilities).

Lvl 17 (soon to be 20) D/W, entirely PvE, with Proph., Factions, and NF (but no EoTN). As it stands, I'll be using max scythe and mysticism attributes.... few spare points can go anywhere. The first few skills are fairly set, then the ?'s come

1) [aura of holy might]
2) [heart of fury]
3) [distracting blow] -- almost all my char's carry an interrupt
4) [reaper's sweep]
5) heal -- [faithful intervention] or [mystic vigor]. FI is overall much cheaper as far as energy expenditure goes. It also gets "used" less, in that MV would be triggering regularly. And with 3 enchantments (+ any from monks, etc.) plus hitting multiple targets, plus IAS, would be doing a pretty nice flow of blue numbers Opinions?
6) - 8) more attacks: [mystic sweep], [victorious sweep], [wild blow], [whirlwind attack], or [chilling victory]. Whirlwind attack is nice, for even more hits than normal, plus the fact that it's adrenaline based (builds fast with hitting adjacent targets), so saves a bit of energy. Wild blow obviously has useful implications for removing stances... but is it worth having all the time? Is a crit. worth that much more than a + damage attack? And of course, this kinda negates the usefulness of Whirlwind attack. Mystic sweep just seems to make sense, as it'll always be worth + 30 damage, and has the faster attack time "spike" nature to it. Plus, Mystic sweep and victorious have very fast recharges, allowing more spamming. Victorious has the added benefit of incorporating healing -- but is this needed with either Faithful Int. or Mystic Vigor? Other opinions?

Yes, I know it's PvE and it's easy, and this is all probably overkill/overthought, but I'd still appreciate feedback. Also, H/H teams, or my guildies don't complain, so I'm not worried about not having a res -- can add it when needed. Thanks in advance!

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Your build seems reasonable. I wouldn't run any self heal though.

I feel very dirty by not running [[Avatar of Melandru] when I log on my dervish.

Winterclaw

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

AoM is a bit meh unless you are going into a condition (blind) heavy area.

Your self-heals leave something to be desired though and you should switch to [wounding strike] asap.

the savage nornbear

the savage nornbear

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2008

The Raging Cadavers [rage]

R/

AoE deep wound is good.

iVendetta

iVendetta

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Where no man has ever gone before.

Syndicate Nightmare [SyN]

I was playing around with different skill combination and I tried this out:

[build prof=D/any name="iVendetta's VoS Play-around" box scythemastery=10+1+1 mysticism=10+1 earthprayers=11+1 desc="Armor: Full Radiant insignias with correct runes{br}Weapon: Zealous Scythe of Enchanting with Strength and Honor Inscription{br}Usage: Cast enchantments in order from right to left and use attack skills wisely due to heavy energy costs of the build"][Victorious Sweep][Mystic Sweep][Chilling Victory][Mystic Regeneration][Heart of Fury][Asuran Scan][Aura of Holy Might][Vow of Strength][/build]

I'll spec the attributes later because the runes set on my armor were for a different build. I don't have EotN so I can't use [[Asuran Scan]. Even so, it wreaks havoc- especially if you've got a hero with [[Splinter Weapon]. I would recommend full radiant insignias on this because of the heavy energy cost. Perhaps if you run an Elementalist as a secondary, you can use [[Glyph of Lesser Energy]. Or even [[Conjure Flame]/[[Conjure Frost]/[[Conjure Lightning] if you're addicted to tri-digit patterns (the energy really becomes a problem then).

[build prof=D/E name="iVendetta's VoS Play-around" box scythemastery=10+1+1 mysticism=10+1 earthprayers=11+1 desc="Armor: Full Radiant insignias with correct runes{br}Weapon: Zealous Scythe of Enchanting with Strength and Honor Inscription{br}Usage: Cast enchantments in order from right to left (also use GoLE) and use attack skills wisely due to heavy energy costs of the build"][Victorious Sweep][Mystic Sweep][Chilling Victory][Mystic Regeneration][Heart of Fury][GoLE][Aura of Holy Might][Vow of Strength][/build]

Good luck.

CoonerTheRed

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

da Big Apple

The Amazon Basin

D/

To answer the OP...

one of those slots should get burned in as a Mystic Sweep or Eremite's attack. The "followup attack" should be standard on all derv bars. Get used to doing mini-spikes all the time with main attack -> mystic sweep.

Wild blow is great if you're facing stances (read, all of Kourna and many other ranger-heavy areas), but no, does not do better than whirlwind attack otherwise. The other nice thing about whirlwind is that it saves energy for more spammage. You might consider a crippling skill... these can be handy if you have free slots (which you seem to because of no EoTN PvE skills).

Really most of your thoughts seem pretty decent, try them out and find what you like. Just take Mystic/Eremites. Always.

tuperwho

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Tenacious Knights of Doom [TKD]

Thanks everyone, and especially Cooner -- that's the kind of feedback I was looking for.

And yeah, I had already settled on whirlwind, and when I need stance removal, trading wild blow for it (as the removes all adrenaline condition makes having both at the same time contradictory).

Any other opinions on the attack skills? How about the heals? Other skills in general I should take?

edit: and what about [Save Yourselves!]?

Megas XLR

Megas XLR

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

D/W

Many people underestimate
[Whirling Charge]
[Dwarven Stability] (Optional)
[Zealous Vow]
[Save Yourselves]

iVendetta

iVendetta

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Where no man has ever gone before.

Syndicate Nightmare [SyN]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Have to agree. Spike is for PvP, in PvE spike means a huge amount of AoE damage (most notably [[Splinter weapon (PvE)]). Ermites is usage comes mostly PvP. Indeed. The scythe's ability to strike multiple foes should be taken advantage of.

[Splinter Weapon (PvE)@9861433]+[Chilling Victory (PvE)@9861433] results in a very nice spike.

Darkside

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
The monsters that drop like flies will drop like them regardless.

Those that have better builds might require something better.


[[Save yourselves] is a good choice. Leave the heals for the healers.
Yah but why not help expedite the process? Slow and steady doesn't win the race. You could have inflicted bleeding and dw on two targets by the time reaper's recharges once. In PvE there aren't many enchantments that absolutely NEED to be removed from a target making the enchantment removal aspect of this skill mediocre at best and the DW is a tad too conditional for my taste. If you use the skill on a healthy target above 50% health you remove an enchantment yay, and if you try and wait to use it to inflict a DW the target is probably already dead.

Reaper's sweep isn't horrible...but It's not the best option in PvE.

Quote:
I was playing around with different skill combination and I tried this out:

Dervish / No profession
10 + 1 + 1 Scythe Mastery
10 + 1 Mysticism
11 + 1 Earth Prayers
Armor: Full Radiant insignias with correct runes
Weapon: Zealous Scythe of Enchanting with Strength and Honor Inscription
Usage: Cast enchantments in order from right to left and use attack skills wisely due to heavy energy costs of the build
Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 11 Health and 3 Energy.

[Copy [iVendetta's VoS Play-around;OgCjkqrLrSQXMXDYsXibvlygfbA] Don't wanna shit on your parade vendetta but VoS is garbage...it was decent and then they...not sure if it was suppose to be a buff of nerf or what they were thinking but now its just horribly bad. Now you have to make sure that no one on your team dishes out any conditions just so you can make sure your elite skill has a purpose. Not to mention the fact that applying nasty conditions to your opposition is a good thing.

Darkside

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
You forgetting that little thing about reapers sweep dealing a shitload of armor ignoring damage.
Not forgetting it... it's not even that much of a damage bonus. Mystic sweep powered by three enchantments does almost as much damage, has a faster recharge and attack animation.

Quote:
The difference is that with WS you open the battle with that (and bleeding who the hell cares especially if they drop like flies). With reapers sweep you open the battle with other attack skill. It's better to hit a target with DW right away because you take away 20% of it's life without actually having to do the damage.

Quote: Either 20% or 100, whichever is the lowest. Dealing the last 100 damage or the first 100 damage seems the same.


Quote:
There are some groups out there, most notably in gwen, that use some enchantments. Having a skill that deals shitloads of damage and either removes an enchantment or gets a deepwound to even deal more shitloads of damage seems pretty sweet. Exactly my point...you mention "some groups out there" you don't run a skill all the time because "some groups out there" will run enchantments that might give you trouble.

Quote:
WS is a PvP thing. For PvE [[Avatar of Melandru] with [[wearying strike] makes for a better all around dervish than one using [[wounding strike] or [[reaper's sweep]. Wounding Strike isn't just a PvP thing. It cost less then the Melandru+Wearying combination allowing for easier e-management and the option to bring along another PvE skill other then Eternal Aura which can mean more damage or the option of bringing Save Yourselves! to help out the party. Obviously, a Melandru derv can also bring Save Yourselves! but if it does his damage will suffer.

Melandru is great in condition heavy areas but again this is that "some groups out there" thing. Not all groups are running blind and cripple to impede your attacks. There is no reason what-so-ever to bring Melandru into an area where conditions are not a problem.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
Not forgetting it... it's not even that much of a damage bonus. Mystic sweep powered by three enchantments does almost as much damage, has a faster recharge and attack animation.
Of course WS is 0 damage bonus.


Quote:
It's better to hit a target with DW right away because you take away 20% of it's life without actually having to do the damage.
Hurray...here's what it boils down to for me.

The deep wound is to conditional - I wanna apply a deep wound when I want to not when the monster is already half dead.

Enchantment removal is only needed in special cases and mostly useless. - I'd probably just have a hero bring enchantment removal if I really wanted it.

It has a 8 second recharge. - Twice as long as wounding strike, which in my book makes it twice as bad.

The bonus damage is nice and there is obviously nothing bad to say about that but that's all it has. Everything else is conditional... IF the monsters below 50% health. IF he happens to have a good enchantment up...too many if's for me.

Quote:
Exactly my point...you mention "some groups out there" you don't run a skill all the time because "some groups out there" will run enchantments that might give you trouble. Fortunately it also deals bonus damage and deepwound.


Quote:
Wounding Strike isn't just a PvP thing. It cost less then the Melandru+Wearying combination allowing for easier e-management and the option to bring along another PvE skill other then Eternal Aura which can mean more damage or the option of bringing Save Yourselves! to help out the party. Obviously, a Melandru derv can also bring Save Yourselves! but if it does his damage will suffer.

Melandru is great in condition heavy areas but again this is that "some groups out there" thing. Not all groups are running blind and cripple to impede your attacks. There is no reason what-so-ever to bring Melandru into an area where conditions are not a problem. While you have some valid points, you won't need to be casting Avatar every time u would use WS. And Eternal Aura is good at damage dealing. +100 health isn't something to sneeze at (dervishes are a bit squishy compared to other frontliners), not when coupled with immunity to conditions (and there are other conditions besides cripple and blindness).

So lets just say that [[wounding strike] isn't an auto-pick when compared with [[Reaper's sweep] and [[avatar of melandru].

Darkside

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Of course WS is 0 damage bonus.

Either 20% or 100, whichever is the lowest. Dealing the last 100 damage or the first 100 damage seems the same.
It isn't the same because it's a lot more difficult to apply DW to a target below 50% with Reapers. 1 you may have been tempted by its oh so great damage to use it earlier or against another monster and are still waiting for it to recharge and 2 you might have trouble timing it right and the monster will die before you even get to apply a DW. If you would have hit the monster with DW first it would have probably died even faster making your character more efficient.

Quote:
Fortunately it also deals bonus damage and deepwound.
While you have some valid points, you won't need to be casting Avatar every time u would use WS. And Eternal Aura is good at damage dealing. +100 health isn't something to sneeze at (dervishes are a bit squishy compared to other frontliners), not when coupled with immunity to conditions (and there are other conditions besides cripple and blindness). No you don't have to cast Melandru everytime you have to cast it once and your energy pool is gone. If you end up having to recast it mid-battle your going to be left c-spacing and that lowers your dps significantly.

I do admit that Eternal Aura can do some nice AoE with a high sunspear rank, most dervish's I see don't even use it as an offensive weapon and just cast it outside of battle like idiots which is unfortunate.

+100 life doesn't make much of a difference, don't get me wrong its nice to have that cushion but...in HM that's 1 or 2 hits 3 if your lucky. If a group of monsters gank you that 100 life isn't going to save you. The only advantage it gives you is if your life is very high the monsters tend to avoid you and move on to flimsier targets.

I'm well aware that there are conditions in the game other then blindness and cripple. I was just pointing out two that are the bane of melee characters.

Quote:
So lets just say that [[wounding strike] isn't an auto-pick when compared with [[Reaper's sweep] and [[avatar of melandru]. Auto-pick over Reaper's almost every time. I wouldn't even put reaper's in the top tier of elite's a Dervish can use.

Most people use it to be "different". Everyone is using wounding strike so I'm gonna use Reapers and be all unique.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
It isn't the same because it's a lot more difficult to apply DW to a target below 50% with Reapers. 1 you may have been tempted by its oh so great damage to use it earlier or against another monster and are still waiting for it to recharge and 2 you might have trouble timing it right and the monster will die before you even get to apply a DW. If you would have hit the monster with DW first it would have probably died even faster making your character more efficient.
If a guy goes from 50% to 0% without a chance to connect a deep wound, I guess DW wasn't needed. On the other hand if the target doesn't die in 3 seconds you are just there looking at the target with a useless elite. I know all mobs melt in 3 secs and no one can hit a monster with more than 1 attack, but then again, in that case dw isn't needed.


Quote:
Hurray...here's what it boils down to for me.

The deep wound is to conditional - I wanna apply a deep wound when I want to not when the monster is already half dead.
And that monster still deals the same damage or even more. In GvG dw everyone is very good cause a person with dw is much more spikable. U rarely spike single targets in PvE.

Quote:
Enchantment removal is only needed in special cases and mostly useless. - I'd probably just have a hero bring enchantment removal if I really wanted it.
Comes at no additional cost. Much like the bleeding from WS that is useless in PvE.

Quote: The bonus damage is nice and there is obviously nothing bad to say about that but that's all it has. Everything else is conditional... IF the monsters below 50% health. IF he happens to have a good enchantment up...too many if's for me. Or you could say it deals a shitload of damage, and may remove an enchantment or add even more damage.


Quote: No you don't have to cast Melandru everytime you have to cast it once and your energy pool is gone. If you end up having to recast it mid-battle your going to be left c-spacing and that lowers your dps significantly. [[Attacker's insight @4] with weapon swapping if need be.

Quote:
I do admit that Eternal Aura can do some nice AoE with a high sunspear rank, most dervish's I see don't even use it as an offensive weapon and just cast it outside of battle like idiots which is unfortunate. Being an idiot or a genius is irrelevant to the usefulness of a skill.

Quote:
+100 life doesn't make much of a difference, don't get me wrong its nice to have that cushion but...in HM that's 1 or 2 hits 3 if your lucky. If a group of monsters gank you that 100 life isn't going to save you. The only advantage it gives you is if your life is very high the monsters tend to avoid you and move on to flimsier targets. I agree that +100 life isn't enough for the elite status. +40 armor isn't either. The difference is immunity to conditions is really good.

Quote:
I'm well aware that there are conditions in the game other then blindness and cripple. I was just pointing out two that are the bane of melee characters. Weakness is annoying as hell too, especially in a profession with such high weapon damage.



Quote:
Most people use it to be "different". Everyone is using wounding strike so I'm gonna use Reapers and be all unique. Most people (most ppl being a minority that isn't using balthazar or lyssa) use it because that's what people use in GvG.

WS is fantastic in GvG (that is, if you can find someone sturdy enough to carry it) because of the pressure. Someone with dw is someone that can die at any moment. In PvE that is very unimportant.

The truth is dervishes are the most frail of the 3 frontliners. In HM I wouldn't take anything over melandru

I used WS extensively with my assassin. It was great, but I tried RS and must say I won't roll back.

Darkside

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
If a guy goes from 50% to 0% without a chance to connect a deep wound, I guess DW wasn't needed. On the other hand if the target doesn't die in 3 seconds you are just there looking at the target with a useless elite. I know all mobs melt in 3 secs and no one can hit a monster with more than 1 attack, but then again, in that case dw isn't needed.
It's not relevant if it was needed or not what's relevant is the fact that said monster would have probably died faster had you opened with a dw.

Quote:
And that monster still deals the same damage or even more. In GvG dw everyone is very good cause a person with dw is much more spikable. U rarely spike single targets in PvE.
I dunno I'd say its 50/50 with scythe aoe. Sometimes you get lucky and manage to ball up all your foes other times not so lucky. Someone claiming to do it 90% of the time is full of shit.

Quote:
Comes at no additional cost. Much like the bleeding from WS that is useless in PvE.
Still extra degen damage that's there even if its not much.

Quote:
Or you could say it deals a shitload of damage, and may remove an enchantment or add even more damage.
Sure you could call it a shitload...

Quote:
[[Attacker's insight @4] with weapon swapping if need be. Negative energy pool friend... and you still need energy to cast attacker's insight.

Quote:
Being an idiot or a genius is irrelevant to the usefulness of a skill. Not completely true but I won't bother getting into it.


Quote:
I agree that +100 life isn't enough for the elite status. +40 armor isn't either. The difference is immunity to conditions is really good. Not sure why you mentioned this...not like I said Avatar of Balthazar was any good.

Quote:
Weakness is annoying as hell too, especially in a profession with such high weapon damage. Yah all conditions are a little annoying I just didn't feel the need to point out that fact. Next time I'll make sure to list them all ... just for the fun of it.

Quote:
Most people (most ppl being a minority that isn't using balthazar or lyssa) use it because that's what people use in GvG. Balthazar is shit but I'd use Lyssa over reapers. Lyssa's bonus damage to foes activating skills out-damages reaper's on its own without the bonus damage of an attack skill on top of that.

iVendetta

iVendetta

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Where no man has ever gone before.

Syndicate Nightmare [SyN]

For heaven's sake, this isn't a [[Wounding Strike] versus [[Reaper's Sweep] debate.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
It's not relevant if it was needed or not what's relevant is the fact that said monster would have probably died faster had you opened with a dw.
U need to deal the same damage. DW first or last is the same.


Quote:
I dunno I'd say its 50/50 with scythe aoe. Sometimes you get lucky and manage to ball up all your foes other times not so lucky. Someone claiming to do it 90% of the time is full of shit.
Dunno what do you mean, but a decent frontliner will get at least all the melee by pulling in semi-circular away.

Quote:
Negative energy pool friend... and you still need energy to cast attacker's insight. You have 25 energy base. Melandru ends mid fight. Swap to staff, cast attackers. Swap to weapon. 2 free attacks. Try it.

Quote:
Not sure why you mentioned this...not like I said Avatar of Balthazar was any good. Did I say you did? I just said +100 health is great with immunity to conditions.


Quote: I'm aware of that...amazingly after 3 years of playing I know how all the conditions work.

Quote:
Yah all conditions are a little annoying I just didn't feel the need to point out that fact. Next time I'll make sure to list them all ... just for the fun of it. Weakness reduces your base damage by a tad over 66%. Scythe base damage is high.

Just try melandru and reapers sweep. You might get surprised or you might still consider that WS is superior. It might depends on what type of other players and heroes builds ur party using.

All I was saying is that WS isn't the auto-choice elite skill to dervs.

Darkside

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

D/

I'm not even going to bother commenting on most of that I've already made my point and I'm tired of repeating myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Weakness reduces your base damage by a tad over 66%. Scythe base damage is high.
Just try melandru and reapers sweep. You might get surprised or you might still consider that WS is superior. It might depends on what type of other players and heroes builds ur party using.

All I was saying is that WS isn't the auto-choice elite skill to dervs. I've used both elite's on my bar at one time or another. I still use Avatar of Melandru regularly when I know an area has an abundance of nasty conditions, shards of orr comes to mind. Reaper's on the other hand I used for a while in an attempt to understand what people see in it and after a few months I just said screw this its just not as good as wounding strike, for the reasons I've already posted.

No WS isn't the auto-choice elite but its a better choice then Reaper's most of the time.