Two teams found a flaw in your system. You're going to punish them for making it well known? I hope you'll at least fix it. You're going to punish them for not wanting to play your game? I hope you'll do some skill balancing.
All I can hear from people here is QQQQQQQQQQQQQ and headbutting opinions. The reason this happened was because ANet allowed it to happen, and now that it's over, they're saying, "We effed up, so you're going to take the fall."
Ohhhhhhhhh, dear.
Update on Tournament Rules Decision
Shayne Hawke
Master Fuhon
Judgements of right and wrong, legal or illegal, have nothing to do with the capabilities of an enforcing body to smite you down on the spot. The police are not given the capacity to prevent crimes; you are given an honor system of rules to follow, with the complete freedom to break those rules should you choose. Under this system of law, you have the right to relinquish your ability to choose (have someone else make the decision) and be held responsible for doing what that person told you to do (in a military state they do not have such rights). When you violate an honor system, you play a role in violating the rights of everyone.
It is also completely unreasonable to expect that you be prevented from doing anything that you would later be punished for, because it would involve 24 hour supervision and being placed in a cage.
The bigger problem I see with the situation, is that it was done, and now there are people out there who feel absolutely no remorse about doing it in the future. People thought it was funny, or they liked the guilds involved, and they decided that was a good enough justification for letting anyone get away with it. So now, we have a bunch of excuses for why this is supposed to be logically justifiable, all of them coming after the concept of punishment was introduced. You tell them to look at what they've done, and they feel that absolutely nothing wrong has been done and they are self-righteous about what they did.
Not that we have a truly dire case on hand yet, but some of the comments I'm seeing indicate there has been a complete lack of insight oriented towards engaging in good sportsmanship. There are people who are actually indignant about making the police force prevent all crime by stripping away freedoms, instead of trying to make the realization that a rule system is there for a reason. Whatever original intent their actions were supposed to serve, people are certainly using it to justify other behavior.
It is also completely unreasonable to expect that you be prevented from doing anything that you would later be punished for, because it would involve 24 hour supervision and being placed in a cage.
The bigger problem I see with the situation, is that it was done, and now there are people out there who feel absolutely no remorse about doing it in the future. People thought it was funny, or they liked the guilds involved, and they decided that was a good enough justification for letting anyone get away with it. So now, we have a bunch of excuses for why this is supposed to be logically justifiable, all of them coming after the concept of punishment was introduced. You tell them to look at what they've done, and they feel that absolutely nothing wrong has been done and they are self-righteous about what they did.
Not that we have a truly dire case on hand yet, but some of the comments I'm seeing indicate there has been a complete lack of insight oriented towards engaging in good sportsmanship. There are people who are actually indignant about making the police force prevent all crime by stripping away freedoms, instead of trying to make the realization that a rule system is there for a reason. Whatever original intent their actions were supposed to serve, people are certainly using it to justify other behavior.
Jenn
After re-reading the User Agreement and Rules of Conduct, I think this situation does fall under violations of at least two parts, at which point aNet can very rightfully terminate the guilds or do whatever the hell else they want. 
While I agree that anet does hold responsibility for this and all other bugs, I think it prudent that they establish a more uniform way of dealing with "exploitations." Personally I'm not a fan of harsh punishments because of anet's role, but I'd like to see fairness from here on in.
For example, there was little doubt amongst players that dupers should be banned, or that HFFF bot users should remain banned despite the controversy over a statement Gaile Gray had made. It could be equally argued that aNet should have forseen the duping scandal from situations in other games, or not underestimate the player base in tapping out the full potential of heroes and such. At what point does responsibility come off ANet's shoulders and go onto the players? Why is there such discord when it comes to banning people we know via PvP fame vs. nameless botters or dupers?
By the way, two sections of the RoC I could identify that were possibly violated...
I guess this would depend on what a "exploit" is considered...
-----
Apologies if this post is seen as a derailment. The comparisons exist solely to provide perspective on what constitutes fair punishment given the past, as well as shed light on aNet's role in said "exploitations."
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
Two teams found a flaw in your system. You're going to punish them for making it well known?
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For example, there was little doubt amongst players that dupers should be banned, or that HFFF bot users should remain banned despite the controversy over a statement Gaile Gray had made. It could be equally argued that aNet should have forseen the duping scandal from situations in other games, or not underestimate the player base in tapping out the full potential of heroes and such. At what point does responsibility come off ANet's shoulders and go onto the players? Why is there such discord when it comes to banning people we know via PvP fame vs. nameless botters or dupers?
By the way, two sections of the RoC I could identify that were possibly violated...
Quote:
| 1. While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud.... |
Quote:
| 19. You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits)..... |
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Apologies if this post is seen as a derailment. The comparisons exist solely to provide perspective on what constitutes fair punishment given the past, as well as shed light on aNet's role in said "exploitations."
Rhamia Darigaz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Master Fuhon
Judgements of right and wrong, legal or illegal, have nothing to do with the capabilities of an enforcing body to smite you down on the spot. The police are not given the capacity to prevent crimes; you are given an honor system of rules to follow, with the complete freedom to break those rules should you choose. Under this system of law, you have the right to relinquish your ability to choose (have someone else make the decision) and be held responsible for doing what that person told you to do (in a military state they do not have such rights). When you violate an honor system, you play a role in violating the rights of everyone.
It is also completely unreasonable to expect that you be prevented from doing anything that you would later be punished for, because it would involve 24 hour supervision and being placed in a cage. The bigger problem I see with the situation, is that it was done, and now there are people out there who feel absolutely no remorse about doing it in the future. People thought it was funny, or they liked the guilds involved, and they decided that was a good enough justification for letting anyone get away with it. So now, we have a bunch of excuses for why this is supposed to be logically justifiable, all of them coming after the concept of punishment was introduced. You tell them to look at what they've done, and they feel that absolutely nothing wrong has been done and they are self-righteous about what they did. Not that we have a truly dire case on hand yet, but some of the comments I'm seeing indicate there has been a complete lack of insight oriented towards engaging in good sportsmanship. There are people who are actually indignant about making the police force prevent all crime by stripping away freedoms, instead of trying to make the realization that a rule system is there for a reason. Whatever original intent their actions were supposed to serve, people are certainly using it to justify other behavior. |
to your second point, of course people are just arguing over whether intentional draws are legal or not now; it's relevant now. just because nobody voiced their opinions on the legality of intentional draws until now doesn't mean they only think it's ok because their favorite guild did it or because it was funny. why would i have made a post before now clarifying my views on intentional drawing? there was no reason to do so.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Illfated Fat
Quote:
1. While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud.... Quote: 19. You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits)..... |
intentionally drawing is no more disrespectful to another player's right to play than beating them in a game and disqualifying them from advancing them in a tournament is. in a competitive game it's the goal of every team to advance in the rankings or tournament, and this almost always inhibits another team's ability to advance. that's the nature of competitive play. if enough people get especially pissy about losing to guilds who decide to intentionally draw anet can remove the ability to draw in future tournaments, but retroactively punishing rawr and zero because they played a tournament the way tournaments with draw mechanics can be played is ridiculous.
lutz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
Hm wait let me get this straight...
People are mad that 2 guilds tied when: A. It wasn't against a rule B. They both would have advanced anyways C. This happens with regularity, yet this is the first time people outrage Sounds fair to me. |
A. It is against the sportsmanship rule, and is manipulating the ranking of the tournament.
B. Who cares? If you cheat on a test even though you would have gotten a high grade in the class anyway, does that mean that the "cheating" is fine? No.
C. Uh... what?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz
nobody's saying (or i'm not, at least) that intentional draws are legal because there is nothing physically stopping people from doing them. they're legal because draws are programmed into the game and there is no rule that makes intentionally drawing illegal.
to your second point, of course people are just arguing over whether intentional draws are legal or not now; it's relevant now. just because nobody voiced their opinions on the legality of intentional draws until now doesn't mean they only think it's ok because their favorite guild did it or because it was funny. why would i have made a post before now clarifying my views on intentional drawing? there was no reason to do so. |
Intentional draws are illegal. Trying to FORCE A DRAW is not illegal.
One team making a stall build until 28 with 8 monks and somehow preventing all damage on their lord for 28 minutes is NOT illegal. Two teams conspiring to not play the game at all and conga line for 28 minutes (or 2 seconds - it doesn't matter; you need to play all 28 minutes of the game) IS ILLEGAL.
DreamWind
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lutz
A. It is against the sportsmanship rule, and is manipulating the ranking of the tournament.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lutz
B. Who cares? If you cheat on a test even though you would have gotten a high grade in the class anyway, does that mean that the "cheating" is fine? No.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lutz
C. Uh... what?
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Rhamia Darigaz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lutz
Do you really have Down's or are you just trying to troll?
Intentional draws are illegal. Trying to FORCE A DRAW is not illegal. One team making a stall build until 28 with 8 monks and somehow preventing all damage on their lord for 28 minutes is NOT illegal. Two teams conspiring to not play the game at all and conga line for 28 minutes (or 2 seconds - it doesn't matter; you need to play all 28 minutes of the game) IS ILLEGAL. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
May I see the sportsmanship rule in the official rules? Also as far as I know it didn't manipulate any ranking because they both would have advanced regardless...although I'm just going by what other people have said.
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lutz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
May I see the sportsmanship rule in the official rules? Also as far as I know it didn't manipulate any ranking because they both would have advanced regardless...although I'm just going by what other people have said.
Different circumstances. In this situation who says it is even cheating besides Anet after the fact? To me it looks like two guilds who are messing around with no benefit to either one of them. I'm doubting either one of them considered it cheating...why blatantly cheat when the game is going to be on observer? This sort of thing happens regularly in HB (as others have stated). It has even happened in PREVIOUS MONTHLYS! The only reason for the outrage in this game is because of the guilds involved, not because it happened. |
Quote:
| Players/guilds are expected to behave in a respectful and sporting manner at all times. |
Rhamia Darigaz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lutz
It's pretty black and white that they broke the rules.
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josh axiom
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lutz
B. Who cares? If you cheat on a test even though you would have gotten a high grade in the class anyway, does that mean that the "cheating" is fine? No.
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lutz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz
how are intentional draws illegal? i've yet to hear a reason that i agree with. implying that i have down's syndrome for disagreeing with you isn't very persuasive
unsportsmanlike conduct is in fact against the rules of guild wars. a better question though is what makes intentionally drawing unsportsmanlike? i don't believe it is. |
Rhamia Darigaz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lutz
Intentionally drawing is unsportsmanlike according to ArenaNet.
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Martin Alvito
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Original Tournament Rules
Players/guilds are expected to not participate in any form of ladder manipulation. Ladder Manipulation is defined as any actions taken to alter the rankings or ratings of the tournament ladder that deviate from guilds actually playing and completing battles. Throwing matches or getting your opponent’s to throw them to you are examples of ladder manipulation because ratings and rankings are changed without actual game play taking place.
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Also, do the math. [rawr] was in danger of missing the top 16. If a couple other guilds with good tiebreaks had won and [rawr] had lost, they were done. The numbers are available in-game. [rawr] would have had the worst tiebreaks of a 4-2 team; those tiebreaks probably would have improved to #15 by losing to [zero].
This fact suggests to me that [zero] fails at strategy. They should have accepted the lottery outcome described by Awowa and tried to screw [rawr] out of a top 16 berth (at no cost or risk - they had excellent tiebreaks), thus improving the odds of winning gold capes markedly.
Penalize [zero] if you wish, but [rawr] was the advantaged team here. They can try and put a nice face on it, but the simple fact of the matter is that they rooked [zero] and are attempting to weasel out of it.
Billiard
ArenaNet has a lot of issues to balance here, but I think they have been pretty thoughtful about this and I trust that they will do what is best for the game and community in the long run.
Please don't get all up in arms trying to prove how your points are clearly more valid than that of others. ArenaNet makes the game and players are obligated to follow the rules as ArenaNet sets forth and interprets them - not what everyone else thinks.
Please don't get all up in arms trying to prove how your points are clearly more valid than that of others. ArenaNet makes the game and players are obligated to follow the rules as ArenaNet sets forth and interprets them - not what everyone else thinks.
Regina Buenaobra
There have been several good points raised here, and these were raised in our discussions, too.
lutz raised a good point regarding rule-breaking and getting caught. Whether you break the rules and get caught or break the rules and get away with it, you still broke the rules.
Ties are allowed, but what took place was not simply two guilds competing to a draw.
And beyond what actually took place at the match, we also have to weigh other wider factors as well. We haven't been discussing this issue in a vacuum. Players are calling for range of different consequences, from taking no action to the most severe action we could possibly take. We have all been consulting with our coworkers and players to get as many perspectives as possible to come to a fair decision.
It was correctly pointed out that the 2008 Tournament Series Rules expired in December 2008. The rules will be updated accordingly, however the Universal Tournament Rules, which do not have an expiration date, do apply in this case.
And also, relevant points about the technical aspects and tie-breaking mechanics were raised. We're aware that not everyone is satisfied with it. It's diverging from this thread's topic, so if you have some detailed, concrete, and constructive suggestions, please feel free to send them my way. I collect a lot of suggestions, but many of them are unworkable or changes that the team doesn't want to necessarily make.
lutz raised a good point regarding rule-breaking and getting caught. Whether you break the rules and get caught or break the rules and get away with it, you still broke the rules.
Ties are allowed, but what took place was not simply two guilds competing to a draw.
And beyond what actually took place at the match, we also have to weigh other wider factors as well. We haven't been discussing this issue in a vacuum. Players are calling for range of different consequences, from taking no action to the most severe action we could possibly take. We have all been consulting with our coworkers and players to get as many perspectives as possible to come to a fair decision.
It was correctly pointed out that the 2008 Tournament Series Rules expired in December 2008. The rules will be updated accordingly, however the Universal Tournament Rules, which do not have an expiration date, do apply in this case.
And also, relevant points about the technical aspects and tie-breaking mechanics were raised. We're aware that not everyone is satisfied with it. It's diverging from this thread's topic, so if you have some detailed, concrete, and constructive suggestions, please feel free to send them my way. I collect a lot of suggestions, but many of them are unworkable or changes that the team doesn't want to necessarily make.
Master Fuhon
Competitive rules on sportsmanship and conduct have always been black or white. Maybe there are people who feel that anonymity over the internet would change things, but they would be mostly wrong. In real competition you get punished for an act 'perceivable' as taunting because it serves as a violation of sportsmanship rules. Based on common standards of how rules are defined, you have no grounds to claim that you were not aware of how an action would be interpreted. How it is interpreted is how you are judged.
No matter whatever competitive world you associate with, match fixing is one of the worst things you can do, along with cheating. If it's flagrant and obvious match fixing, I guess it should also be interpreted as an insult to everyone who plays competitively and a lack of respect towards those who organize the league.
I don't see how any leeway received on these issues will come from being logical about things. You might try to bargain for leniency, instead of thinking there's some logical ground to stand on. The company is still free to misinterpret it's own rules on the matter.
No matter whatever competitive world you associate with, match fixing is one of the worst things you can do, along with cheating. If it's flagrant and obvious match fixing, I guess it should also be interpreted as an insult to everyone who plays competitively and a lack of respect towards those who organize the league.
I don't see how any leeway received on these issues will come from being logical about things. You might try to bargain for leniency, instead of thinking there's some logical ground to stand on. The company is still free to misinterpret it's own rules on the matter.
Vel
rawr should not be perma banned. I always put them on #1 in XTH. Unlike DF or dR they rarely disappointed me.
Jokes aside, rules infraction is bad. But, banning two teams is not really a good idea. Maybe take their gold trim away.
Jokes aside, rules infraction is bad. But, banning two teams is not really a good idea. Maybe take their gold trim away.
Silverhand
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Master Fuhon
Competitive rules on sportsmanship and conduct have always been black or white. Maybe there are people who feel that anonymity over the internet would change things, but they would be mostly wrong. In real competition you get punished for an act 'perceivable' as taunting because it serves as a violation of sportsmanship rules. Based on common standards of how rules are defined, you have no grounds to claim that you were not aware of how an action would be interpreted. How it is interpreted is how you are
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psykoikonov
imo nothing should be done to either guild except fix what Anet doesn't want to happen.
Simple reason is HB and RA, HB has shown that win/loss/tie can be manipulated and RA has allowed palyers to sync since the begining. Now all of the sudden there is punishment for unsportman like conduct. So unsportsman like conduct can get you in trouble IF people actually care about it. So as long as the observed parties know which rules don't need to be followed it's ok..../double standard. The ladder in HB is manipulated constantly and rewards are given for this...not to the same extent as GVG but none the less.
Simple reason is HB and RA, HB has shown that win/loss/tie can be manipulated and RA has allowed palyers to sync since the begining. Now all of the sudden there is punishment for unsportman like conduct. So unsportsman like conduct can get you in trouble IF people actually care about it. So as long as the observed parties know which rules don't need to be followed it's ok..../double standard. The ladder in HB is manipulated constantly and rewards are given for this...not to the same extent as GVG but none the less.
Master Fuhon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silverhand
LOL using taunting as a black and white example of bad sportsmanship is ridiculous considering we have a taunt emote and have rank emote that can be done over enemies that are dead
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But according to your logic, I have some curse words in my vocabulary that came from being printed in a dictionary... sounds like you think that's reason enough to use them. Just because the emotes can be used in a way, does not imply the game designers encourage you to do so.
I've seen it referenced as 'sandbox' play, you have some freedoms to do what you will. At least notice you cannot specifically target your taunts towards an individual, which is something you can do in other games. That is at least one restriction game designers have put in place to demonstrate they do not condone taunting. Rank showing was entirely your own interpretation; it can be used to qualify oneself for a group.
I had a previous post on this type of discussion; I usually don't bother to reason with anyone who expects to be prevented from doing things that are wrong. There are flaws in my logic, but not quite as glaring as the logic of someone who thinks right = doable, wrong = not doable.
In specifics to the guilds involved, I'd like to add that I have no problems when people do something wrong and accept blame. I'd even advocate going easy on them.
MisterB
Let the punishment fit the rules violation. Remove input from all parties involved, and force players involved to be unable to perform any action other than /dance or conga with the nearest target for x hours.
Simath
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
So breaking the rules is ok if a conga line is involved? Makes sense..
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Silverhand
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Master Fuhon
But according to your logic, I have some curse words in my vocabulary that came from being printed in a dictionary... sounds like you think that's reason enough to use them. Just because the emotes can be used in a way, does not imply the game designers encourage you to do so. I've seen it referenced as 'sandbox' play, you have some freedoms to do what you will. At least notice you cannot specifically target your taunts towards an individual, which is something you can do in other games. That is at least one restriction game designers have put in place to demonstrate they do not condone taunting. Rank showing was entirely your own interpretation; it can be used to qualify oneself for a group. |
i think u should check out the video anet posted for zaishen rank
http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...aishenrewards/
seems to imply tahts what it was designed for
and no
knowing curse words does not give u the right to use them
i was simply saying that ur example did not fit the situation
Chthon
1. This is silly.
2. I'm amused, not angry.
3. If this...
...is true, then I can't see how anyone could be angry.
2. I'm amused, not angry.
3. If this...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jinzo7
rawr and zero did a conga line in the MAT to practice for the rawr party and tied, Euros are beside themselves with rage even though both guilds would have made top 16 anyway regardless of who won. Butthurt euros want rawr's trim removed and all 16 players involved permabanned.
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Master Fuhon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silverhand
in regards to rank
i think u should check out the video anet posted for zaishen rank http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...aishenrewards/ seems to imply tahts what it was designed for |
You've successfully pointed out that game rules do not perceive /zrank'ing someone as taunting behavior according to sportsmanship standards. Also, if you examine the body language of the /taunt emote (hands waving over the head), the gesture does not represent the body language of someone delivering an insult, but goading you into delivering an attack (an inopportune thing to do to a corpse).
I've never been personally insulted by being informed of the ranks of the person who just killed me; in fact, I understand that my death is the most opportune time to inform me that I have been defeated by a brilliant combatant.
But most taunting rules refer to the second definition, any overlap involving insults. If zranking people is being allowed, maybe you should make greater effort in interpreting the lack of hostility that is supposed to accompany it. Leave the ego at the door in pvp, because being ranked is not the 'insult' version of a taunt.
Silverhand
I never said I found gettin ranked insulting
Infact I even do it
I was just merely pointing something out about the
taunt reference
And please don't try to imply that I have an ego when u do not know anything about me
I know I'm not that good in pvp
It's y I've never been in a top 100 guild
But regardless we have gotten way off topic here
Infact I even do it
I was just merely pointing something out about the
taunt reference
And please don't try to imply that I have an ego when u do not know anything about me
I know I'm not that good in pvp
It's y I've never been in a top 100 guild
But regardless we have gotten way off topic here
Dmitri3
How about changing the system so draw isn't allowed? Meaning not in rules, but in game mechanics. You punish one group and others will do it just to piss you off, or protest, whatever you call it. I would certainly have fun doing conga line just to show that the system is broken as hell.
Depending on rules is like hoping no one will take money out of a lost wallet.
Depending on rules is like hoping no one will take money out of a lost wallet.
Lady Lozza
So, let me get this straight:
Two teams, both going to make the play-off regardless of the outcome, deliberately (stop) play to "force" a draw because the game is in stalemate and neither team wants to break that stalemate because it would put them at a disadvantage for the rest of the match.
Ok, if they were both going to make the ladder anyway why not just PLAY. Why not challenge themselves by taking that disadvantage and trying to win anyway? For two guilds clearly at the top of their game I can't understand why loss of face would be considered so important.
Two teams, both going to make the play-off regardless of the outcome, deliberately (stop) play to "force" a draw because the game is in stalemate and neither team wants to break that stalemate because it would put them at a disadvantage for the rest of the match.
Ok, if they were both going to make the ladder anyway why not just PLAY. Why not challenge themselves by taking that disadvantage and trying to win anyway? For two guilds clearly at the top of their game I can't understand why loss of face would be considered so important.
Dmitri3
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza
Ok, if they were both going to make the ladder anyway why not just PLAY. Why not challenge themselves by taking that disadvantage and trying to win anyway? For two guilds clearly at the top of their game I can't understand why loss of face would be considered so important.
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It was the most logical solution, you can't blame them for actually doing a smart move.
Lady Lozza
What did they have to lose? They weren't going to miss out on a spot in the play-offs, and the play-offs are basically a whole new ball game.
In agreeing to do what they did they rigged the match, hence meddled with the ladder.
It does not matter why they did it.
It does not matter whether others do it.
What matters is they got caught doing it.
All in all it was a stupid move when precedent shows that Anet does NOT like players or guilds who do this. It was a stupid move when neither team had anything to lose in the match except a little pride.
Games are for fun, yes, but games have rules and you are expected to play by them. Break the rules and get caught and you have to face the consequences of your actions.
The ability to do what was done in this match should be removed from the game. But in saying that that does not mean the guilds involved should not be punished for what they did.
In agreeing to do what they did they rigged the match, hence meddled with the ladder.
It does not matter why they did it.
It does not matter whether others do it.
What matters is they got caught doing it.
All in all it was a stupid move when precedent shows that Anet does NOT like players or guilds who do this. It was a stupid move when neither team had anything to lose in the match except a little pride.
Games are for fun, yes, but games have rules and you are expected to play by them. Break the rules and get caught and you have to face the consequences of your actions.
The ability to do what was done in this match should be removed from the game. But in saying that that does not mean the guilds involved should not be punished for what they did.
CronkTheImpaler
sure would love to hear from the involved parties. see if they can explain this malicious and wanten act of lunacy!!!!!!!!!!!!! seriously have any of them popped on here? id like to hear what they have to say.
Cronk
Cronk
Dmitri3
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza
It does not matter why they did it.
It does not matter whether others do it. What matters is they got caught doing it. |
Oh well, I suggest you actually read their statement on it... and not just the first post: http://www.rebelrising.net/forums/vi...8 273656df870
Inde
Cronk, rawr has commented on it. Through their guild site. Awowa has talked to a few people about it as well and those comments are found on the various PvP sites and guild sites. Billiard gave a run down of what happened here, with details that a lot of people seem to have missed: http://teamlove.us/guildtracks/
Sjeng
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Master Fuhon
You've successfully pointed out that game rules do not perceive /zrank'ing someone as taunting behavior according to sportsmanship standards. Also, if you examine the body language of the /taunt emote (hands waving over the head), the gesture does not represent the body language of someone delivering an insult, but goading you into delivering an attack (an inopportune thing to do to a corpse).
I've never been personally insulted by being informed of the ranks of the person who just killed me; in fact, I understand that my death is the most opportune time to inform me that I have been defeated by a brilliant combatant. |
Man, mAT's is srs bsns! Just gimme my keys :P
DreamWind
I have to stir the pot some more here. I really don't think this is black and white as some people are saying. Hell I'd still argue nothing wrong even happened.
Here are the original rules that we know of:
What they did does not go against this whatsoever as no rankings or ratings were changed as a result and no matches were thrown. An intentional draw avoids both of these.
Here is the other rule we know of:
This raises the question, what is respectful and sporting? I sure don't think an intentional draw is unsportsmanlike. It happens all the time in other games (like MtG for example). It was clear that both teams didn't care about this match...would you rather them "fake play"? I find that even more stupid.
Lastly, you could say that Anet considers intentional drawing disrespectful or unsportsmanlike. If so...that sure isn't in the rules and there has never been a statement on it. It also doesn't respond to the point that this has happened several times before with no uproar whatsoever.
Here are the original rules that we know of:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Original Tournament Rules
Players/guilds are expected to not participate in any form of ladder manipulation. Ladder Manipulation is defined as any actions taken to alter the rankings or ratings of the tournament ladder that deviate from guilds actually playing and completing battles. Throwing matches or getting your opponent’s to throw them to you are examples of ladder manipulation because ratings and rankings are changed without actual game play taking place.
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Here is the other rule we know of:
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Originally Posted by ANet Rule
Players/guilds are expected to behave in a respectful and sporting manner at all times.
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Lastly, you could say that Anet considers intentional drawing disrespectful or unsportsmanlike. If so...that sure isn't in the rules and there has never been a statement on it. It also doesn't respond to the point that this has happened several times before with no uproar whatsoever.
Div
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Originally Posted by lutz
What [rawr] and [zero] did is similar to playing a basketball match and sitting around for 4 quarters, neither team trying to shoot a basket. Maybe, even, both teams start running laps around the court. It's possible, then, to "draw" the game, but that sure as hell wasn't legal.
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And plus, the precedent has already been set, with Anet completely ignoring the HB mAT ties in swiss rounds and also intentional losing in HB elimination rounds. Now, because of all the public QQing, Anet is setting a double standard, and all of a sudden changing their rules so it doesn't appear like they're not doing anything for their game.
xDusT II
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
If an analogy is to be made with basketball, then it'd be more like, the baskets were both covered so that neither team could make a shot. Both teams played the first two quarters, realized the score was still 0-0 at halftime, and came out of the locker room saying "let's just have some tea instead of banging our heads against each other for nothing and seeing who can hit the last-second buzzer shot as god removes the magical cover blocking the baskets."
And plus, the precedent has already been set, with Anet completely ignoring the HB mAT ties in swiss rounds and also intentional losing in HB elimination rounds. Now, because of all the public QQing, Anet is setting a double standard, and all of a sudden changing their rules so it doesn't appear like they're not doing anything for their game. |
The biggest problem I can see coming from all this is - while to my knowledge the game didn't effect the top 16 - It just as easily could have. IIRC someone from rawr/zero stated they only did rough calculations before the game and were fortunately right that it did not affect the final 16. My main concern is that without some form of punishment to act as a deterrent, many other guilds may see this as acceptable in similar situations and it would only be a matter of time before one guild got the calculations wrong and the final standing is affected somehow. So while the act in itself was harmless at the time, it came with a risk that they could have been wrong and the players took it upon themselves to harbour such risk. This is something I think worthy of punishment as guilds should not be able to potentially manipulate into their own hands on the basis of trust and responsibility. Doing so is an accident waiting to happen.
Dmitri3
A real analogy would be: would you still bang your head against a wall even if you knew it won't break?
Onyx Blindbow
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| And also, relevant points about the technical aspects and tie-breaking mechanics were raised. We're aware that not everyone is satisfied with it. It's diverging from this thread's topic, so if you have some detailed, concrete, and constructive suggestions, please feel free to send them my way. I collect a lot of suggestions, but many of them are unworkable or changes that the team doesn't want to necessarily make. |
Yet taking this into account they are willing to punish to PvP guilds for "manipulating" the ladder, despite the fact that no gain was made by either team, no loss was made by either team, it did not affect the ladder standing for any of the teams and it clearly shows that something needs to be done with the game mechanic.
It's is a shame they are killing this game
Hopefully some sense will prevail and a-net will see just how far from their desired path they have strayed in all aspects of the game not just PvP
I personally hope that RawR and Zero come out of this unscathed
Amnel Ithtirsol
They did what was best for their respective guilds. Call it unsportman-like or whatever, it was competitive with regards to staying in the tournament. The fact that this type of behavior (HA) has been left unattended and unpunished by ANet in the past could have had a major impact in the player's decision to go for the draw in the first place.
It would be wrong for them to be punished in any way as ANet is entirely to blame for this fiasco. Fix the game and make the rules and subsequent consequences of breaking those rules crystal clear, ANet. And above all, apply and enforce those rules the same way for all forms of the game.
It would be wrong for them to be punished in any way as ANet is entirely to blame for this fiasco. Fix the game and make the rules and subsequent consequences of breaking those rules crystal clear, ANet. And above all, apply and enforce those rules the same way for all forms of the game.