I kinda give props to rawr and zero of thinking of pulling a draw, way to beat the system!
Someone mention permanantly removing the gold trim. Still doesnt affect the guild players. Taking away a cape is like just changing the color of your armor. Banning them from another tourney, thats more fitting. but taking the cape away does NOT make it so they cant come back and do it again...
Just putting my stance on this out there: I support rawr and zero's use of pulling a draw to maintain their ranks, AND doing it with some flair. I believe every other guild, deep down, is upset that they were'nt smart enough to think of it first. So please, really the only arguement is getting started because other guilds couldn't think of doing it first. (and possibly this post...)
Go rawr and zero, best of luck with your GvG'ing.
Tournament Ruling
Joseph Spiritmaster
Skye Marin
I don't think what they did was cheating at all. Fitting then, a nothing punishment for a nothing offense.
With the new VoD system, draws can pretty much only happen if guild lords are never attacked. If Anet wants to remove draws, they can make an arbitrary rule, like "highest rank wins", or "blue team wins". Same, if they want to remove /roll in HB, they can give Dishonourable to teams who quit or /resign in the first 5 minutes. I think they choose not to, because priorities lay elsewhere, which is a pretty good reason.
I think too much time was wasted on this.
With the new VoD system, draws can pretty much only happen if guild lords are never attacked. If Anet wants to remove draws, they can make an arbitrary rule, like "highest rank wins", or "blue team wins". Same, if they want to remove /roll in HB, they can give Dishonourable to teams who quit or /resign in the first 5 minutes. I think they choose not to, because priorities lay elsewhere, which is a pretty good reason.
I think too much time was wasted on this.
Leman
It was a dancing contest! Animations are the same so there couldn't be winners!
Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by Skye Marin
I don't think what they did was cheating at all. Fitting then, a nothing punishment for a nothing offense.
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| We were officially removed from one full season of play because Vanquisher asked Black Rose Gaming to resign (which they didn't). |
HawkofStorms
To all the people screaming foul.... really, what else could a.net have done? The rules were not exactly clear so it seems extreme to ban them (and with smurf guilds, that wouldn't even really do anything).
Dmitri3
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
This is straight from GW-Wiki
Quote:
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6342/gw781rf7.jpg |
It also doesn't change the fact that there's some controversy about this and neither team knew they were breaking the rules. I still stand by my opinion that warning is all that was needed here, which Anet delivered by taking away the trims.
Trub
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Skye Marin
I don't think what they did was cheating at all. Fitting then, a nothing punishment for a nothing offense.
With the new VoD system, draws can pretty much only happen if guild lords are never attacked. If Anet wants to remove draws, they can make an arbitrary rule, like "highest rank wins", or "blue team wins". Same, if they want to remove /roll in HB, they can give Dishonourable to teams who quit or /resign in the first 5 minutes. I think they choose not to, because priorities lay elsewhere, which is a pretty good reason. I think too much time was wasted on this. |
Thank you Skye.
No harm, no foul.
And, it was kind of funny watching 2 opposing teams conga together..
Bonehead
Quote:
| It also doesn't change the fact that there's some controversy about this and neither team knew they were breaking the rules. I still stand by my opinion that warning is all that was needed here, which Anet delivered by taking away the trims. |
Dmitri3
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Originally Posted by Bonehead
Ignorance of the law does not make a case. Since trims, anymore, have little value, perhaps ANet should have made it harder for the offending guilds to qualify in the upcoming tournament?
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The rules shouldn't be ignored, but if no one knows about them - they shouldn't be enforced either. Oh, most people not following them and not being punished doesn't help either (AT enter and forfeit, /roll in HB, draws in HB, ganking in Halls...)
Besides, there are plenty of dumb laws and rules... I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get you in prison for at least 10 years if I could just review what you did in your life and had access to all these laws.
Quote:
| It is illegal to lie down and fall asleep with your shoes on. |
lutz
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Originally Posted by Skye Marin
I don't think what they did was cheating at all. Fitting then, a nothing punishment for a nothing offense.
With the new VoD system, draws can pretty much only happen if guild lords are never attacked. If Anet wants to remove draws, they can make an arbitrary rule, like "highest rank wins", or "blue team wins". Same, if they want to remove /roll in HB, they can give Dishonourable to teams who quit or /resign in the first 5 minutes. I think they choose not to, because priorities lay elsewhere, which is a pretty good reason. I think too much time was wasted on this. |
Lord Sojar
Ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation. I don't care if you are in upside down twisted around LSD trip world, it is what it is. Stop trying to twist it to make it seem like the rules were not plain enough.
They intentionally made a draw in a match, without playing the match in any way, shape, or form. They knew this was manipulation, and for anyone to think they didn't makes you foolish and naive. We are talking about [rawr] here... they had their own tournament a while back; they know the game.
The deserve to have their trim permanently removed, no questions asked. Personally, considering the fact they are such a veteran GvG guild, and understood the rules front to back, back to front, and everywhere in between, they honestly should be disqualified from next months MAT as well.
Both of those combined punishments are still laughable, but at least make more of a point that "You lose this for 30 days, but don't have to do anything to earn it back but sit on your asses and wait the 30 days! BAD RAWR!" Cmon people... don't defend people that knew full well what they were doing.
They intentionally made a draw in a match, without playing the match in any way, shape, or form. They knew this was manipulation, and for anyone to think they didn't makes you foolish and naive. We are talking about [rawr] here... they had their own tournament a while back; they know the game.
The deserve to have their trim permanently removed, no questions asked. Personally, considering the fact they are such a veteran GvG guild, and understood the rules front to back, back to front, and everywhere in between, they honestly should be disqualified from next months MAT as well.
Both of those combined punishments are still laughable, but at least make more of a point that "You lose this for 30 days, but don't have to do anything to earn it back but sit on your asses and wait the 30 days! BAD RAWR!" Cmon people... don't defend people that knew full well what they were doing.
Shmanka
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Originally Posted by Dmitri3
....
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In all honesty the first part of the match was played out, and it did seem [zero] had a chance of winning.
M'Aiq The Liar
I think this seems like a "warning shot." I view it as them saying to both guilds to watch themselves, and sending a message to other guilds that they will act on stuff like this and they are paying attention. If they go in too harsh, then the backlash would be just as bad, I think. Here's hoping they get a good, concrete set of rules and punishments in place for if this happens again.
Shadowmoon
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
In all honesty the first part of the match was played out, and it did seem [zero] had a chance of winning.
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Amnel Ithtirsol
I'd say fairly good job ANet.
Now if you an just keep an eye on other forms of PvP as well...
Now if you an just keep an eye on other forms of PvP as well...
MMSDome
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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
Ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation. I don't care if you are in upside down twisted around LSD trip world, it is what it is. Stop trying to twist it to make it seem like the rules were not plain enough.
They intentionally made a draw in a match, without playing the match in any way, shape, or form. They knew this was manipulation, and for anyone to think they didn't makes you foolish and naive. We are talking about [rawr] here... they had their own tournament a while back; they know the game. The deserve to have their trim permanently removed, no questions asked. Personally, considering the fact they are such a veteran GvG guild, and understood the rules front to back, back to front, and everywhere in between, they honestly should be disqualified from next months MAT as well. Both of those combined punishments are still laughable, but at least make more of a point that "You lose this for 30 days, but don't have to do anything to earn it back but sit on your asses and wait the 30 days! BAD RAWR!" Cmon people... don't defend people that knew full well what they were doing. |
Lord Sojar
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Originally Posted by MMSDome
How is it ladder manipulation of the ladder rankings didnt even change? Stop making no sense
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DreamWind
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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
Tournament ladder, not guild ladder. Now I am done caring.
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Lord Sojar
Draws are possible and can happen if the teams play normally. This was a clear agreement to do conga lines for 28 minutes. That means there was an agreement to create a synthetic draw. That is the issue, not the draw itself.
Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
To all the people screaming foul.... really, what else could a.net have done?
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Originally Posted by Regina
We tried to make a decision that was as fair as possible not just for the guilds involved, but for the entire community.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
Draws are possible and can happen if the teams play normally. This was a clear agreement to do conga lines for 28 minutes. That means there was an agreement to create a synthetic draw. That is the issue, not the draw itself.
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DreamWind
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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
Draws are possible and can happen if the teams play normally. This was a clear agreement to do conga lines for 28 minutes. That means there was an agreement to create a synthetic draw. That is the issue, not the draw itself.
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There is no mention of intentional draws in the rules, and intentional draws are generally considered normal in most swiss formats. This is particularly true in a system that Anet created, where intentional draws are not only possible, but easy to do.
Manupulation is still generally considered conceding or trying to get others to concede, with some form of compensation being the worst case scenarios.
blooQkazoo
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
I want you to MATHEMATICALLY prove this to me, because I did the math.
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Back on topic:
The punishment was equally as useless as doing the math for this stupid match. Honestly, it wasn't even a slap on the wrist for rawr and zero. The punishment was more along the lines of a parent telling their baby child "Nooooo that's not right. Don't do it again, honey babycakes." after the kid says "shit" all the while they're patting them on the head and smiling.
Let me try and do the math:
Ladder manipulation + punishment = funnay ass joke
DragonRogue
I must agree that Anets "punishment" is pretty weak at best. But we see many weak punishments around here all the time. IE botting HFFF, gold buyers, abusive language in Local Chat, etc (not that some of those are pvp). I can think of only one time where it was harsh and unilateral. *ahem 117 cough*. We dont really know all that goes on around the headquarters at Anet, but seriously this looks like favoritism at its worst. I know that something must be done in the way of rules and such around here, but seriously Anet, when are we going to see some consistancy in those rulings and fairness to all? You have just proven, once again, that its who you know.
Reguardless, these guilds have been headlines for a long time and have made a name for themselves. Now we, the fans of once great teams, must sit back and wonder if they truly are what we have always thought, and what they have always claimed. It was obvious this time, but how do we know they havent been doing this all along? I know, personally, im pretty disappointed by their actions in this and will doubt their credibility from now on. They have muddied thier name in this and will have much work ahead, to prove that they are deserving of the record they have seemed to have had in the past. Id like to think that they are truly shamed by what they have done. But we all know that some people are incapable of such feelings when pride and bragging rights are on the line.
Reguardless, these guilds have been headlines for a long time and have made a name for themselves. Now we, the fans of once great teams, must sit back and wonder if they truly are what we have always thought, and what they have always claimed. It was obvious this time, but how do we know they havent been doing this all along? I know, personally, im pretty disappointed by their actions in this and will doubt their credibility from now on. They have muddied thier name in this and will have much work ahead, to prove that they are deserving of the record they have seemed to have had in the past. Id like to think that they are truly shamed by what they have done. But we all know that some people are incapable of such feelings when pride and bragging rights are on the line.
Yang Whirlwind
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
Ok let me make this more clear.
There is no mention of intentional draws in the rules, and intentional draws are generally considered normal in most swiss formats. This is particularly true in a system that Anet created, where intentional draws are not only possible, but easy to do. Manupulation is still generally considered conceding or trying to get others to concede, with some form of compensation being the worst case scenarios. |
Any attempt at manipulating results are against the rules. Period!
You may have a different opinion, but it is not your game.
DreamWind
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Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind
Every set of sports rules in existence stipulates that you must play to the best of your abilities. Not doing so is considered unsportsmanlike behavior.
Any attempt at manipulating results are against the rules. Period! You may have a different opinion, but it is not your game. |
Shadowspawn X
The players made a mistake and were found guilty. I won't say they should forever lose their gold cape or be banned from the game they enjoy so much because thats not right. I won't blame or defend Anet or their faulty game mechanics that should have been fixed months ago. But what I will ask for is fairness to all players and that the favoritism stop.
I draw your attention to February 5th 2009 a precedent was set in this game. There was a update to the XTH which passed out reward points to those who participated in the monthly betting. Then less than an hour later then was a second update which allowed thousands of players to receive a double payout of reward points. With in the hour Regina was posting on the forums that everyone who received this "second payout" would have to return the points and will all have their accounts debited the overpayment. This set a precedent that if someone gets reward points though ill gotten means weather a broken game mechanic or exploiting a gaff by Anet then restitution of those RP's must be paid back.
Then the very next day February 6th 2009 the punishment is handed down after two weeks of deliberation. Somehow it seems fitting that rawr and zero don't have to give back their reward points after thousands of GW players were punished for doing the exact same thing. Which was taking advantage of a broken game(many unknowingly). Joe casual gamer is walking around with negative reward points because he got 30RP's twice. While the elite professional gamers nab thousands of reward points after being found guilty of scandal. Yes this is favoritism and it is wrong. This is my issue with Anet they have two sets of rules one for the masses and one for the elite.
I draw your attention to February 5th 2009 a precedent was set in this game. There was a update to the XTH which passed out reward points to those who participated in the monthly betting. Then less than an hour later then was a second update which allowed thousands of players to receive a double payout of reward points. With in the hour Regina was posting on the forums that everyone who received this "second payout" would have to return the points and will all have their accounts debited the overpayment. This set a precedent that if someone gets reward points though ill gotten means weather a broken game mechanic or exploiting a gaff by Anet then restitution of those RP's must be paid back.
Then the very next day February 6th 2009 the punishment is handed down after two weeks of deliberation. Somehow it seems fitting that rawr and zero don't have to give back their reward points after thousands of GW players were punished for doing the exact same thing. Which was taking advantage of a broken game(many unknowingly). Joe casual gamer is walking around with negative reward points because he got 30RP's twice. While the elite professional gamers nab thousands of reward points after being found guilty of scandal. Yes this is favoritism and it is wrong. This is my issue with Anet they have two sets of rules one for the masses and one for the elite.
bel unbreakable
Intentional draw or otherwise not trying your best is cheating if two other guilds had intentionaly drawn a match in order to prevent rawr from progressing you can bet your last quid they would have put the boot in big time.
Gun Pierson
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Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X
While the elite professional gamers nab thousands of reward points after being found guilty of scandal.
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Taking their trim away means they didn't deserve their position and they should not rake in the rewards that come with that position. Or am I seeing this wrong?
An explenation from someone unbiased or Anet would be nice.
Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by Regina
:::::::::We are aware of how contentious this ruling was.
We knew that there wouldn't be 100% agreement on the decision. I've brought the feedback here to the rest of the team. Many of the opinions have already been raised to the team. All the emails regarding this issue have been brought to the attention of the team as well. - ::::::::::This discussion seems to be devolving. Suggesting that I am "retarded" or swearing at me isn't going to change the decision, and it won't make me more inclined to listen to your perspective. Please keep this in mind for the future. --[[User:Regina Buenaobra|Regina Buenaobra]] 00:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC) - :::::::::::I consider this discussion closed: we have already taken your comments and disagreements on board, I have reported them to the team, and we will keep these views in mind in the future. However, we believe that a measured response to the incident was appropriate, given all of the circumstances involved, the rules issue, the AT system, the state of the game, and so on. --[[User:Regina Buenaobra|Regina Buenaobra]] 00:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC) |
BTW: Is there even a 20% agreement on the decision??
kokuou
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
I can't give a link, because the section on her discussion page has been deleted.
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Delver
Speaking of /roll in HB, when can I start sending in screenshots of people asking for /roll games as those are ladder manipulators without a doubt. It would be great if some could spot out the thousands of /roll games during those double HB weekends.
Kashrlyyk
Noone stops you from sending them in.
Dmitri3
It's just no one will care cause it's not rawr.
DarkNecrid
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
Uh...are you serious? Intentional draws have been a part of almost every game since the swiss format was invented. It is a COMMON PRACTICE. Now if Anet wants to say it is against the rules of their game that is fine...but do so BEFORE the fact and NOT after.
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Every other sport not only does not allow players to offer the other team a draw, but has official rules in tournament play to prevent draws of the unintentional kind, whether it is extra sudden death overtime in American Football (although if no team gains points during this time, it will tie, which makes American Football the only American sport that can end in a draw through gameplay), extra innings in baseball (There was a game in the 1920s that went to 26 innings!), extra plays in Basketball, champion retaining title in Boxing, tie breaker in Hockey, tiebreaker game in Tennis, etc and rules to prevent draws OF the intentional kind, whether it is to have players removed from the game, a ref declaring a forfeit (the common punishment in Football), etc.
You might be able to intentional draw with your friends or something in a friendly Swiss game of a pro sport, but if you attempted it in the actual swiss rounds of a pro league (which would be the equivalent of the ATs in GW right now), it would not fly.
Bonehead
Realize: there is no "/tie" function. There is no way of intentionally tying without violating sportsmanship.
Ladder manipulation is debatable, sportsmanship or lack thereof is more concrete.
Ladder manipulation is debatable, sportsmanship or lack thereof is more concrete.
Lord Sojar
Rawr is bad and evil, and they have sinned. They deserve to be smote. Can we leave it at that please?
DreamWind
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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid
Chess is the only sport that lets players intentionally draw. It does this by allowing players to offer their opponent a draw.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid
Every other sport not only does not allow players to offer the other team a draw, but has official rules in tournament play to prevent draws of the unintentional kind, whether it is extra sudden death overtime in American Football (although if no team gains points during this time, it will tie, which makes American Football the only American sport that can end in a draw through gameplay), extra innings in baseball (There was a game in the 1920s that went to 26 innings!), extra plays in Basketball, champion retaining title in Boxing, tie breaker in Hockey, tiebreaker game in Tennis, etc and rules to prevent draws OF the intentional kind, whether it is to have players removed from the game, a ref declaring a forfeit (the common punishment in Football), etc.
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Sweet Mystery
When it comes to it, removing something from a cape means tiddlysquat.....
Do what others get - ban them for a period of time. Or dont ban for breaking rules... it's dual standards....
Do what others get - ban them for a period of time. Or dont ban for breaking rules... it's dual standards....
desrtrat
Wow.. I'm not a PvP player...cause I suck and PvP players are brutal about letting you know that haha..
After reading this entire thread (yes.. I'm that bored) It seems like what's being argued here is whether or not rules were broken and if so, did the punishment fit. Whether the rules were broken seems to be semantycs. By the letter of the law, did rawr and zero break the rules? No. There's nothing that specifically states "Teams cannot have an intentional draw".. but did they violate the spirit of the system? I think so, as do many others apparently. This MIGHT be acceptable or forgiven from a new or inexperienced guild, but these guys know better. They're all pros. From previous posts, another guild [QQ] wasn't forgiven and was banned for a whole season for asking the other team to resign. If they were going to punish [QQ] that severely (personally I think it was excessive), it only seems fair they would do something similar to rawr and zero. Rawr and zero knew exactly what they were doing. Given that, it does seem the punishment is a little light.
A DQ from the tournament seems like it would have been more appropriate. From my point of view.. you're in a tournament to fight. If you're not going to fight (for WHATEVER reason), you don't belong there....just my opinion..
After reading this entire thread (yes.. I'm that bored) It seems like what's being argued here is whether or not rules were broken and if so, did the punishment fit. Whether the rules were broken seems to be semantycs. By the letter of the law, did rawr and zero break the rules? No. There's nothing that specifically states "Teams cannot have an intentional draw".. but did they violate the spirit of the system? I think so, as do many others apparently. This MIGHT be acceptable or forgiven from a new or inexperienced guild, but these guys know better. They're all pros. From previous posts, another guild [QQ] wasn't forgiven and was banned for a whole season for asking the other team to resign. If they were going to punish [QQ] that severely (personally I think it was excessive), it only seems fair they would do something similar to rawr and zero. Rawr and zero knew exactly what they were doing. Given that, it does seem the punishment is a little light.
A DQ from the tournament seems like it would have been more appropriate. From my point of view.. you're in a tournament to fight. If you're not going to fight (for WHATEVER reason), you don't belong there....just my opinion..
Snow Bunny
The best part is that you don't all see that [rawr] and [zero] won, not Anet.
They knew that they'd get a slap on the wrist. They knew that GWG forum members would debate this endlessly, and that a couple of fanboys would defend them to the last breath, no matter how many veritable interpretations of rules and how many FACTS were thrust in their faces.
There is absolutely precedent for a harsher punishment. Vanquisher of [QQ] requested a resign from Black Rose Gaming, which was reported, and subsequently resulted in a [QQ] suspension.
In this instance, both parties collaborated flagrantly and gleefully, showing just how little they care for the light punishments to be doled out on them.
What are they going to lose...zkeys? a trim that's completely devalued?
They knew that they'd get a slap on the wrist. They knew that GWG forum members would debate this endlessly, and that a couple of fanboys would defend them to the last breath, no matter how many veritable interpretations of rules and how many FACTS were thrust in their faces.
There is absolutely precedent for a harsher punishment. Vanquisher of [QQ] requested a resign from Black Rose Gaming, which was reported, and subsequently resulted in a [QQ] suspension.
In this instance, both parties collaborated flagrantly and gleefully, showing just how little they care for the light punishments to be doled out on them.
What are they going to lose...zkeys? a trim that's completely devalued?