I thought long and hard about this topic and where it belongs. since this directly relates to closed topics about Guild Wars I believe this is a better venue than Site Feedback. Since I enjoy a good debate, I figured I'd risk the wrath of the mods and take this to the people.
I've noticed many threads getting closed without a valid reason to close them. By valid, my meaning is simple, they do not break any of the posting rules found here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nes-id2030.php
I've seen many threads relating to nerfing of skills in game. Yes there is a lot of QQing, but if someone believes a good build has been ruined, it's somewhat understandable they might be a little upset.
I've seen threads closed because there is a year old (or older) thread which already discussed a topic. If that thread were not closed I would understand removing the new and posting in the existing. But many of these threads have been closed and the excuse for closing the new thread is 'this has already been discussed'. True, but are you forgetting that people are still buying this game, new people are joining Guru each day. Sometimes a topic comes up again, so either keep the old thread open, or allow a new one to begin.
I've seen threads like the 'vaporware' or 'hint to production' be closed simply because these threads are theorizing on when GW2 might be released. Perhaps they belong in a different area, but come on, how many GW players aren't waiting anxiously for GW2 to arrive. This is supposed to be a community, these are topics a community discusses! Follow your own guidelines, if there are flamers that need attention; delete post, warn, temp ban, perma ban. That is in your guidelines.
I've seen some people warned by moderators about flaming, and that's good. But have you checked some of your moderator's posts? Few are above going below the belt when it's a topic they feel strongly about!
I've seen far too many wish threads closed here! Threads suggesting changes to the game, more storage, name changes, hair styles, etc. Don't get upset with the posters if you dislike these type of threads, if you email ArenaNet with any suggestions, THIS is the place they tell us to post! Again, maybe a suggestion was posted years ago and shot down by the community, but if you've closed that thread, what other choice is there than to start a new thread to see if the mood has changed on a subject?
Look, after all is said and done, there is only one person who has the final say as to what does and does not belong here. And I am a happy member of this community. I just feel the need to voice my confusion over some of the thread closings I've seen here. I don't understand why they are closed, I just know it has NOTHING to do with the Rules and Guidelines.
This thread is Closed!
mrvrod
Konig Des Todes
If threads have a 1/3 flame/troll rate (if I remember correctly) those posts will be deleted and the thread closed. Since you are not a mod, you would be unable to see the deleted content.
If a thread looks like it will breed flames and trolls, than it is up to the moderators whether or not to close it before the flames and trolls come.
I understand your point and have even talked to Inde herself about this and what I stated above is a simplified version of what I got in return.
As for the "Few are above going below the belt when it's a topic they feel strongly about!" - yes, some moderators troll, and they should also be reported. I have recently been browsing threads and mod posts to find where moderators go against the rule - this does not include closing threads - so that I may send them to Inde later on. The more evidence the better so I have refrained on sending what I currently have. If you have a problem with certain mods, I suggest you do the same.
As for "I've seen threads closed because there is a year old (or older) thread which already discussed a topic" - this is because the moderators favor bringing back an old thread instead of simply making a new one. I think they should merge the threads instead, but that is me.
By the time a moderator comes into this thread, their post will probably be extremely similar. If they don't just go "What Konig Said" or something.
If a thread looks like it will breed flames and trolls, than it is up to the moderators whether or not to close it before the flames and trolls come.
I understand your point and have even talked to Inde herself about this and what I stated above is a simplified version of what I got in return.
As for the "Few are above going below the belt when it's a topic they feel strongly about!" - yes, some moderators troll, and they should also be reported. I have recently been browsing threads and mod posts to find where moderators go against the rule - this does not include closing threads - so that I may send them to Inde later on. The more evidence the better so I have refrained on sending what I currently have. If you have a problem with certain mods, I suggest you do the same.
As for "I've seen threads closed because there is a year old (or older) thread which already discussed a topic" - this is because the moderators favor bringing back an old thread instead of simply making a new one. I think they should merge the threads instead, but that is me.
By the time a moderator comes into this thread, their post will probably be extremely similar. If they don't just go "What Konig Said" or something.
Dr.Jones
it has everything to do with the moderators that don't know what they are doing. a wile back a guildy of mien posted a thread on here about Questions you have About GuildWars2 and the Moderator closed the tread citing FAQ that was posted on guildwars.com it was two completely different topics and yet it got closed and when he/she asked as to why they got banned. not a warning not a explanation or correction of the error a ban simply because he/she was right and the moderator wasn't. another one of friends posted a sell list. and got ip banned because they didn't know that you cant bump your thread more then once a day. this post will probably be deleted because that's just how they are. the sad thing is there isn't a viable alternative to this site.
Avarre
I'll respond to some of this publicly. If you do have specific questions pertaining to moderation, you can send them to me and I will answer as well as I can.
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I've seen many threads relating to nerfing of skills in game. Yes there is a lot of QQing, but if someone believes a good build has been ruined, it's somewhat understandable they might be a little upset.
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Quote: I've seen threads like the 'vaporware' or 'hint to production' be closed simply because these threads are theorizing on when GW2 might be released. Perhaps they belong in a different area, but come on, how many GW players aren't waiting anxiously for GW2 to arrive. This is supposed to be a community, these are topics a community discusses! Follow your own guidelines, if there are flamers that need attention; delete post, warn, temp ban, perma ban. That is in your guidelines. The vaporware thread was closed as there was nothing more to discuss besides petty arguments of logic. You can theorize all you like, but in the end such threads have no contributive effect - and without anything solid to discuss, they become heavily derailed.
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I am 100% sure Regina knows we crave information about GW2. After all; there has been threads popping up every second day for months now. I can tell you that several ArenaNet representatives are here on an almost daily basis. When no information is shared at this time, I suspect it is a corporate decision, something not likely to change because we keep begging.|
I've seen some people warned by moderators about flaming, and that's good. But have you checked some of your moderator's posts? Few are above going below the belt when it's a topic they feel strongly about!
Report them via PM to myself, Arkantos, or Inde. Do not oust them publicly, it will just be removed. Include all relevant information such as quotes/PMs as needed. Quote:
Yes, I do want and appreciate the answers I have been given thus far. I am however, also interested in feedback from other forum users to see if they feel the same or if I am in the minority here.Quote: 
Are you trying to say that this wasn't your intention? Because otherwise, I am now led to believe that it was just a rant designed to get inflammatory posts about the mods and support of your position by putting it in a highly visible forum. You have to remember that we are not developers, that every suggestion about GWG is read, that they are answered, that we talk about your suggestions, your views, your feedback. We can make changes on the spot! We can review rules and guidelines, we can take your posts and feedback and work directly with you.
No I am not trying to start some Guru hate thread. I apologize if you feel this is a personal attack against your site. I stated in my original post that I am a happy member and I am. I don't even know if there IS a better way to handle the threads as a lot of them Do devolve into mud-slinging. I'm just bringing up an issue I feel strongly about, and again, am interested to know if I'm the only one who feels this way.Quote:
it does in fact have a "contributive effect", but I guess not the one you may have been expecting from such a thread (no info = no good?); firstly, some people are genuinely concerned about Anet's silence and this thread was the opportunity for them to share their concern (so that Regina can assess the "relative" extent of the problem, although Guru is only a tiny portion of the community) and possibly find some peace while we wait for GW2 (or not); secondly, you never know when someone comes with a fairly good/new viewpoint on this particular problem, or a piece of information that sheds some new light on the problem. I know we, users, are not setting the rules and mods are humans (thus, make mistakes), but I believe that consistency would require that you use the close-thread-hammer on a lot of threads that are much, much less "contributive" (see the endless discussion in Glad's about general statements being compared out of the blue, ending in posters almost-flaming each other, and it's only the first example that comes to my mind). Or consistency in the other direction would require you leave the vaporware thread open. (side point: I know that there are different mods for different part of the forum, maybe that's the issue where the mod behaviour seems different depending where you are on Guru?) I globally agree with mrvrod, you should maybe use a bit more short bans to teach people not to troll or to behave (or even not to repeat what has been said, it's amazing the number of people that do that) instead of closing threads. Or maybe you're short on mods to be able to do it (which is understandable)? Again, as mrvrod said, this is no flame or strong disagreement. Overall GWG is good (used to be great  ) and the team is doing a great job. I'm sure we're all grateful for the time you dedicate to it, but simply want to voice our opinion. Since debate about general opinions end up nowhere, I thought the case of the vaporware thread was a good one to exemplify the problem (that threads are not only about "information", they're also about very simple "interaction", discussions, exchange, not always positive exchanges btw...).
Kattar
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Originally Posted by Fril
Yang Whirlwind
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
it does in fact have a "contributive effect", but I guess not the one you may have been expecting from such a thread (no info = no good?); firstly, some people are genuinely concerned about Anet's silence and this thread was the opportunity for them to share their concern (so that Regina can assess the "relative" extent of the problem, although Guru is only a tiny portion of the community) and possibly find some peace while we wait for GW2 (or not); secondly, you never know when someone comes with a fairly good/new viewpoint on this particular problem, or a piece of information that sheds some new light on the problem. |
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(side point: I know that there are different mods for different part of the forum, maybe that's the issue where the mod behaviour seems different depending where you are on Guru?)
Like Kat told you, we have different moderators for different section because we need our people to be very sensitive to the specifics of the section(s) they moderate.In Ventari's there is no middle ground: either you follow the guidelines or you get banned. In some of the other sections each post needs to be carefully reviewed in the context of the discussion to determine whether moderating action is required or not. These evaluations are based on intimate knowledge of the section, the users involved in the discussion and something you might call gut-feeling or intuition.
Sometimes a single casual remark deleted preemptively can prevent a major flame-war from breaking out later.
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
You mean these non existent guidlines ? Because they are here.
I globally agree with mrvrod, you should maybe use a bit more short bans to teach people not to troll or to behave (or even not to repeat what has been said, it's amazing the number of people that do that) instead of closing threads. Or maybe you're short on mods to be able to do it (which is understandable)?
Some users feel we need to hand out more and/or longer bans, while others think we are too strict as it is and argue for a more lenient line.
I do not think there is a right or wrong answer here, if making and enforcing rules were an easy task, there would not be a legion of people involved with the process in real life.
Riverside has the most leniency, depending on the topic - update threads are treated harshest, and the volatility of the discussion determines what standards are employed. Information (Campfire/Explorer) threads I prefer to shut down if they do not start with a thought-out OP and show clear effort involved.
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I globally agree with mrvrod, you should maybe use a bit more short bans to teach people not to troll or to behave (or even not to repeat what has been said, it's amazing the number of people that do that) instead of closing threads. Or maybe you're short on mods to be able to do it (which is understandable)?
We do this now, however there is some gray area. If a thread is derailed from a single point, it's easier to give warnings/bans and delete offending posts. However, if a thread is massively off-topic, it's pointless to give everyone a warning for having posted in it - if there's no clear instigator, or posts that drove the thread off-topic aren't specifically against the rules and the process took a long period. In these cases it's cleaner to simply close the thread. I've deleted 200+ posts from threads before in single scans, but really, that's a sign the thread is trouble.
On top of that, there is a wide discrepancy between what is considered offensive or improper. A lot of the reported posts I get (of which I do not get all that many) are not what I would consider trolling at all, while most of the posts I have to mod are not reported.
I know it's not your job to educate people, and much easier the way you do it (it's not a criticism), but yet I feel it's worth doing it that way (and if it doesn't work then close threads systematically). Maybe add a rule or make the forum rules simpler and more accessible (I tried to find them right now and couldn't)
What you have to understand is that you can't keep every post in a thread. It would become unreadable very fast and it would go off topic after a while, which is not exactly what the OP posted for.
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Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake
Why so strict on your non existent guidelines?
I do not think there is a right or wrong answer here, if making and enforcing rules were an easy task, there would not be a legion of people involved with the process in real life.
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I have different moderating standards depending on the thread and subforums.Riverside has the most leniency, depending on the topic - update threads are treated harshest, and the volatility of the discussion determines what standards are employed. Information (Campfire/Explorer) threads I prefer to shut down if they do not start with a thought-out OP and show clear effort involved.
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On top of that, there is a wide discrepancy between what is considered offensive or improper. A lot of the reported posts I get (of which I do not get all that many) are not what I would consider trolling at all, while most of the posts I have to mod are not reported.
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Just one thought on this part: it may have been easier to leave the 200 off-topic post and add a new post "moderator action: from now on, off-topics will lead to closure of the thread", a kind of warning to help people realise they have to go back to the topic, possibly banning the repeated off-topic-ers (I know you'd have to be more flexible than that).|
Again, as mrvrod said, this is no flame or strong disagreement. Overall GWG is good (used to be great ) and the team is doing a great job. I'm sure we're all grateful for the time you dedicate to it, but simply want to voice our opinion. Since debate about general opinions end up nowhere, I thought the case of the vaporware thread was a good one to exemplify the problem (that threads are not only about "information", they're also about very simple "interaction", discussions, exchange, not always positive exchanges btw...).
I locked the vaporware threads because Guru threads have a tendency to polarize, at which the discussion is dead. Examples are everywhere - see Ursan threads, etc. The vaporware thread was looking at another few hundred posts of The Faithful (GW2 EXISTS OK THEY ARE JUST TAKING TIME TO MAKE IT PERFECT) and The Cynical (lol vaporware gg). Neither party has ground to stand on, and I didn't think an ocean of posts of the two groups simply shrieking at each other was really worth it. Every other thread that has reached this state has simply devolved into an endless internet NO U slapping match.
Fril Estelin
Many thanks to Katsumi, Yang and Avarre for taking the additional time to explain.
Originally Posted by Avarre
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I know it's not your job to educate people, and much easier the way you do it (it's not a criticism), but yet I feel it's worth doing it that way (and if it doesn't work then close threads systematically). Maybe add a rule or make the forum rules simpler and more accessible (I tried to find them right now and couldn't)
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I know you do Inde, but I didn't notice you (and other mods) were doing it so often. And as I said before (but I'll repeat it) I think you're doing a great job, but off-topic-ers (of which Bryant Again and Dreamwind technically are, but it's great to read them) sometimes plague this board, which used to be better (because of better posters who are no longer here). Good to know you're also giving warning points to people.
You mods keep insisting 'there is no need' so if it's just your opinion of what is needed or not, why even bother creating this forum?
EVERY mod on EVERY forum will have an opinion of what is needed and what's not. There are different mods with different opinions; I let a lot of posts stay while Avarre for example will delete them. 
Earth
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I locked the vaporware threads because Guru threads have a tendency to polarize, at which the discussion is dead. Examples are everywhere - see Ursan threads, etc. The vaporware thread was looking at another few hundred posts of The Faithful (GW2 EXISTS OK THEY ARE JUST TAKING TIME TO MAKE IT PERFECT) and The Cynical (lol vaporware gg). Neither party has ground to stand on, and I didn't think an ocean of posts of the two groups simply shrieking at each other was really worth it. Every other thread that has reached this state has simply devolved into an endless internet NO U slapping match.
In the vase of this topic, as I said above, it does achieve something: relieve some stress from people, share concerns, inform Regina (well, ok she doesn't need any more of that now). I've seen thread polarisation (and sometimes contributed to it), but it's "frustrating" to see these threads being closed. You know, it's like the now-famous Bryant Again-Dreamwind (hey guys if you read  ) lengthy discussions. It does appear endless, but it's really not, it's just very long because it took them time to try to understand each other (and agree on some points, and agree to disagree on some others). I think that's what some arguments are sometimes: just a failed attempt at understanding each others' point of view and explanations. And closing the thread lets the argument in a state of failure, because unfinished (I know that some people will never stop, it's the "I have to win the argument" mentality, a.k.a. "I'll be the one to write the last word on this one", but then again a word of warning may suffice).About "words of warning": I know vBulletin has a warning system that can lead to automatic short-term banning, aren't you using that? (I remember when I was mod on a big forum that this lead to a big discussion between mods as we were not sure it'd have a positive effect on the forum) Anyway, no major comment from me, you can ignore me .
Inde
Fril, we do warn. A lot. It gets lost in a 20 page thread. Scroll through some of my posts, you'll see me constantly asking people to stay on topic and contributing. To keep all the off-topic posts, the warning gets buried. We can't warn everyone when we are deleting 20+ posts in a thread though either. It's tedious and doesn't accomplish anything. If people have questions we are happy to address them, but most know the why's. We also use a warning system and send PM's, a lot can attest to that dreaded "Infraction Warning".
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by Inde
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What you have to understand is that you can't keep every post in a thread. It would become unreadable very fast and it would go off topic after a while, which is not exactly what the OP posted for.
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Rules are there to be followed, just like in the real world. Like I said, some mods are stricter than others.
Quote: Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake
Just because it's not important or useful to you doesn't mean it isn't to someone else.
I'm sure most mods think of that, but most of what we delete is either really wrong, totally off topic, flaming and more of that. We're not perfect, just like you are not perfect either. There will always be people who disagree with mods' actions, and I can't stress enough times that you can PM a mod if you disagree with closing or whatever. If you don't know who did it, PM Inde or a different admin/supermod. IIf they agree, they'll undo the action.
Quote: Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake
Forums are places for people to converse online, not a FAQ page. Go learn what a forum is.
You ARE conversing online.
A forum is meant to be a friendly environment, while this may not always be the case, we do our best. There are different threads with different topics, and different forums for different topics. If you want to chit chat, we have an off topic forum. If you want to discuss the game, there is riverside and loads of other forums.
Also, different forums need a higher level of deletion and stuff. I think Avarre already stated that somewhere.
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Originally Posted by Inde
No, moderators work independent of each other using broad guidelines, experience and common sense to determine their actions. If they waited to talk to the rest of the moderators in their section before acting, our responses would be too slow to matter.A forum is meant to be a friendly environment, while this may not always be the case, we do our best. There are different threads with different topics, and different forums for different topics. If you want to chit chat, we have an off topic forum. If you want to discuss the game, there is riverside and loads of other forums.
Also, different forums need a higher level of deletion and stuff. I think Avarre already stated that somewhere.
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I've sent PMs a few times before for other things and didn't get responses. Can I just ask you here instead?
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As to the other matter, posts and threads are subjective. Meaning that any post deemed to be off topic is an opinion, just as your determination of it being on topic is an opinion. If you have a question or concern please PM me. I am more then happy to look into the situation, I can reverse a mod decision if necessary. I am here to work with you guys. Believe it or not my 'job' is to work with the community, not to work with the moderators. I have reversed many moderator decisions, I am more then happy to provide explanations or insight into why I believe a certain action was taken. I strike up many dialogues with forum members who want me to review a thread. I will look up any complaint or question and will address it.
I understand that these things are subjective, but isn't there rules in place or at least a collaberation on these matters? I honestly don't care about the thread in question anymore (I mostly got my point across). The problem I see is several mods were posting in the thread like everything was fine, and then ONE person comes in and says the thread is off topic and a mod quickly comes in agrees and locks it. Shouldn't there be a discussion between mods on whether or not a thread should be closed, particularly a high profile thread such as the one in question?
This thread is not for discussing specific moderating actions.
Stuff like: "why was my post in this particular thread deleted?" is a discussion for PM correspondence only.
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
I understand that these things are subjective, but isn't there rules in place or at least a collaberation on these matters? I honestly don't care about the thread in question anymore (I mostly got my point across). The problem I see is several mods were posting in the thread like everything was fine, and then ONE person comes in and says the thread is off topic and a mod quickly comes in agrees and locks it. Shouldn't there be a discussion between mods on whether or not a thread should be closed, particularly a high profile thread such as the one in question?Quote:
If you do not get an answer, send another PM.|
Originally Posted by Inde
Thank you isildorbiafra. I know this was suspicious in your eyes, but please take me up on my offer anytime to PM me and discuss any concerns or questions you may have. I would never want a forum user to believe that there was something of this nature going on.
Here is the problem...what if actions in question can't be solved by PM, but only by forum readers seeing it?
Inde
Dreamwind, I have no PM's from you in my inbox about any situation like those you are detailing or have questions about.
All forum questions or concerns can be solved in PM. There is no need to publicize any of this as has been demonstrated that it can be resolved in PM. The only need to publicly post anything is for the own user's gratification and in no way needs to involve the general public. As you can clearly and even ironically see in this thread, all of these matters could have been handled individually in a PM to myself.
Yang Whirlwind
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
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This thread is not for discussing specific moderating actions.
Stuff like: "why was my post in this particular thread deleted?" is a discussion for PM correspondence only.
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You also have to understand that not all moderators who posted in that thread you mention actually moderate that section. Such moderators post as regular users, leaving the moderating decisions to those responsible for the section.
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It was quite some time ago, but I am 100% sure I sent you a PM about it. No matter its in the past.|
Originally Posted by DreamWind
Here is the problem...what if actions in question can't be solved by PM, but only by forum readers seeing it?
You cannot ever start a public discussion on how this forum is moderated. This is not a democracy! You do not need other forum readers support to make a point: if your argument is valid, we will listen and reverse decisions as needed.
DreamWind |
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As you can clearly and even ironically see in this thread, all of these matters could have been handled individually in a PM to myself. I'm not really seeing the point of the forum then. Anything can be sent by PM between users...I thought the whole point was to make issues public and have discussion about them.
Quote: Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind
No, moderators work independent of each other using broad guidelines, experience and common sense to determine their actions. If they waited to talk to the rest of the moderators in their section before acting, our responses would be too slow to matter.
Fair enough. My issue is what if a thread was "wrongly" locked...wouldn't it be faster and less inconvient to have a few mods discuss beforehand rather than have a bunch of people whining and having to relook over the thread afterwards?
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Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind
You cannot ever start a public discussion on how this forum is moderated. This is not a democracy! You do not need other forum readers support to make a point: if your argument is valid, we will listen and reverse decisions as needed.
Is the bolded in the actual rules? If it is then so be it...I disagree with the rule but the rules are the rules. As for other forum readers support...it is more than that. What if I want Anet to read it? I have had a lot of posts deleted that I wanted people to read that were never seen.
Inde
Dreamwind, the point of THIS entire forum is to discuss Guild Wars. If you want Anet to read a post, then PM them. Guess what, Regina/Gaile/Andrew/Martin read the PM's sent on this forum and it's a direct way to contact them without them having to filter through 1,000 posts. They have a community email address where you can contact them as well. If you want certain users to read a post of your's that was deleted because it violated a forum rule or guideline or want to have a discussion with them, you can PM them as well. No one is stopping you. There's that PM thingy again.
We also can not discuss every thread closure, that's silly. We have thousands of posts a day on this forum, hundreds of threads created. We do thousands of moderating actions every month. It's not feasible, necessary or even called for.This is also now becoming too much of a back-and-forth argument that's not really headed anywhere. If you want to further discuss the issue I welcome you to send me a personal note. Otherwise, I will not continue to constantly reiterate what I have said. I do not engage in dissecting posts line-by-line and I hope I have answered your questions and concerns. If you have anything further that is weighing on your mind, please feel free to contact me directly. |