Decent Diverse Profession PvE Hero Teams?

RavenHQ

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

I've recently played Sabway/Discordway so much I'm sick of having three Necros... so I tried the 3x RoJ build+ MM... but I think I'm actually sick of running 3x of the similar buillds so I'm trying to figure out how to make a decent Hero team by not using all the same profession...

Early on when NF came out, I would run hero/hench the old fashioned way, as if they were all hench- picking which professions/skills I needed for the moment. After awhile, I settled on to 3x SF E/Me/(Me/E) which I took almost everywhere. Then the Sabway and now RoJ.

In Sabway theres: The Player, MM hero, Rt Healer hero and (Curse Nuke SS hero)

Has anyone figured out decent builds that work using either Ritualtist or Monk as the Healer, Ele or Mes as the Nuke, and Ritualist or Necro as MM? And under the condition that none of the three Heroes have the same Primary?

Hugh Manatee

Hugh Manatee

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2007

Nice But Deadly[nice]

N/

I believe if you look for it there's a Rt/N minion bomber with jagged bones, and the 3 spawning spells that do stuff when you create summoned ceatures(one gives energy, one dos damage and one heals, if you use them with bone minions they all count twice), and a hero is very good about throwing around jagged bones and death nova. Even if you use a N primary MMs are good almost everywhere there's bodies for them to exploit.

Before I found out about sabway I used to have an Earth Ele stapled to my party bar when I went vanquishing. With unsteady ground, churning earth and ward vs melee you can knocklock and block most mobs in HM. I think he had mes interrupts, or a hard res or additional protection as I needed it.

Since I was a ranger I also used Norgu/Gwen a lot. I'd set them up as Illusion, have them take [frustration], read the description carefully on that skill, if you interrupt ANYthing, like if they're auto attacking and you hit them with savage shot, they'll take the +40 damage. Great for a apply poison/BHA ranger. I also gave him Fevered dreams, accumulated pain, a couple interrupts like leech sig, p-drain ect.

When I wasn't the ranger sometimes I put a standard apply+BHA hero in the mix with a few extra interrupts to exploit the Hero AI's insane interrupting ability.

I never used the paragons much, nor any of the melee heroes(they were way to wonky with charging and over extending, and never chained their skills right, like the hammer ones rarely used their KD>Crushing Blow combo). The only warrior Hero I ever found that worked well was a Skull Crack sword. [Skull Crack][sever artery][gash][savage slash]["watch yourself!"]["shields up!"][flurry][resurrection signet](this was back when WY! and SU! worked differently though, so tweak accordingly, and he's got a zealous weapon). This guy would beat the hell out of any caster he came across. He raped the stone summit monks in Sorrows Furnace during the split in that tower area with just him and our other human healer(I was was off radar with a healer hench or healer hero and he was acting on his own, the human monk stayed with the NPC while we got the items from that dredge cave).

I always used to make my monks Mo/Me with P-Drain or Leech sig and reveal/inspired hex or drain enchantment to help them when they got "spammy" with WoH, and assist the offense. I also liked Inspired/revealed hex against the monster only hexes in the garden of sewhatsit, and against wurm bile.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Sometimes I use an Ele as a protector/smite for melee classes that would benefit from enchantments:

Something like:

[ether renewal][aura of restoration][protective spirit][reverse hex][shield guardian][zealot's fire][strength of honor][balthazar's aura]

As for an Ele nuking build, you can use SH, there will be some AoE flee which you can use a snare or minions to contain:

[Savannah Heat][Searing Heat][Teinai's Heat][Rodgort's Invocation][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Fire Attunement][Splinter Weapon][Death Pact Signet]

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

Resto rits with energy drain and the like work. They aren't very smart about using OoS, I wanted to try Signet of Spirits some but it's been "nerfed" in PvE. If you have enough spirits they should spam essence strike though, and then you can hit that 14 channel breakpoint for splinter. The FC resto mesmers from HA are also fun, powered by either tease or edrain. Otherwise N/Rts are still very effective even outside of minion-heavy necro setups.

Word of Healing can make an OK healer bar. I hate the [Unyielding Aura][Patient Spirit][Dawyna's Kiss] etc. bar because they spam superpowered patient on people that don't need it and run dry fast. In general I hate monk AIs though because they spam dry so easy. Before RoJ I would run [divine boon][smiter's boon][defender's zeal] on a smiter bar, that makes for some decent redbar to catch what prots are missing. They spend alot of time/energy spreading zeal so I'd only use that in HM.

An ele on [ether renewal][protective spirit][spirit bond][reversal of fortune][aegis][aura of restoration][shield of absorption][infuse health] etc. is pretty strong, especially if you are a tank-type class. I don't really see them spamming Shield Guardian enough like a human would, and you need to watch for them being dumb and not always prioritizing ether renewal when they drain themselves in a really tough spot. As mentioned earth is great on AIs too.

Gwen on VoR-type bars well enough, just be sure you have waste not, want not for when there aren't casters around to pdrain. Bring an energy elite and they can spam clumsiness+wandering eye too. (100 dmg every 20 seconds to 1 foe aka Ineptitude is not worth it, esp considering their energy problems.)

[The Power is Yours!] is a fun skill for paragons in caster-heavy parties, although heroes don't seem to spam it as much as they should. Anyway standard motigon can handle party healing needs nicely, complementing the hench healers that usually lack that stuff... and you don't need a crazy paraway to do it.

Lourens

Lourens

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

I run a 3 ranger team packed with interrupts with a D/N Order its fun

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBat View Post
An ele on [ether renewal][protective spirit][spirit bond][reversal of fortune][aegis][aura of restoration][shield of absorption][infuse health] etc. is pretty strong, especially if you are a tank-type class. I don't really see them spamming Shield Guardian enough like a human would, and you need to watch for them being dumb and not always prioritizing ether renewal when they drain themselves in a really tough spot.
Yes, they dont always prioritize ether renewal, which is why I hestitated putting Infuse health in their bar, in case they cast that without ether renewal up or not having enough enchantments on themselves or both.

I agree that they dont spam Shield Guardian nearly enough. Maybe I would try replacing that with Spirit Bond.

Quote:
Gwen on VoR-type bars well enough, just be sure you have waste not, want not for when there aren't casters around to pdrain. Bring an energy elite and they can spam clumsiness+wandering eye too. (100 dmg every 20 seconds to 1 foe aka Ineptitude is not worth it, esp considering their energy problems.) Waste not, want not is nice. The only time that I would bring Power Drain over that is when I actually need an interrupt.

fireflyry

fireflyry

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

New Zealand

A/D

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenHQ View Post
I've recently played Sabway/Discordway so much I'm sick of having three Necros... so I tried the 3x RoJ build+ MM... but I think I'm actually sick of running 3x of the similar buillds so I'm trying to figure out how to make a decent Hero team by not using all the same profession...
Good luck with that.

Your basically saying "I'm bored of my heroes having near constant energy and ability to spam with a side of I hate synergy"

Your basically asking how to gimp yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenHQ View Post
And under the condition that none of the three Heroes have the same Primary? Tbh Necro is king...obviously.

Paragons are close second and demand micro and much more build synergy for the bonus of killing faster than Sab.

At the end of the day there is more on offer but it's subpar in terms of ease of use.

Experiment, have fun and enjoy.

If your wanting to rack up titles, make HM a breeze and grind.....get over it.

Soul Reaping can't be beaten.

Good luck.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Raven what is your proff? because its hard to suggest anything without kowing your prof.

Also, [ether renewal] Eles are bad, strip ER and GFG! you have no healer, dunno why anyone should give mobs a second way to counter you apart from kills.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

To be fair, Ether Renewal can be stripped more easily from the hero because of the AI limitation, unless you micro it by covering it with Aura of Restoration everytime the hero recasts ER. Either that or take that chance.

On the other hand, there are not many places with deep enchant removal in PvE, so covering it would be enough for most cases.

Teknikaali

Teknikaali

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

Rt/

Quote:
and the 3 spawning spells that do stuff when you create summoned ceatures [Boon of Creation] [Spirit's Gift] [Explosive Growth]

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lourens View Post
[Ether Prism] is the way to go on Eles for energy management nowadays
^qft, for gimmicks ofc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
To be fair, Ether Renewal can be stripped more easily from the hero because of the AI limitation, unless you micro it by covering it with Aura of Restoration everytime the hero recasts ER. Either that or take that chance.

On the other hand, there are not many places with deep enchant removal in PvE, so covering it would be enough for most cases. But question is why? Necs can have better energy management without all the fuss and if you are good enough at microing to make sure that ER is covered and fueled all the time Monk heroes are much better for you because you can as well make sur they never run out of energy in the first place.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

I often play 2 Nec and 1 Mo build.

AotL MM, N/Rt healer and RoJ smiter... and myself as SS. Of course, I have a feeling this isn't what you're looking for

random.name

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

South Africa

N/

Its PvE, anything can be made to work. If you think about it, it really shouldnt be that hard to build a group with good synergy.

talisk3

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2008

[YUM]

R/

I run N/Rt healer, MM, and Searing Flames ele.

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

as a general rule of thumb, never use any of the skills that had their effects changed. the AI does not know how to use them.

BrettM

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

Amen, Brother Igor.

The main problem with AI and changed skills is not with the skills but with the builds. If a build is created around a particular skill and depends on synergies with that skill, then obviously the AI will be less effective using that build after a skill change. That's not the fault of the AI. A player can't use a build that's broken by a skill change either.

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

-AI cannot use life sheath correctly. they'll still try to preprot with it, and never use it to remove conditions
-AI cannot use healing burst properly. they'll still think it's a touch range heal and won't heal anything except themselves. just go play some AB and you'll know what i mean.
-AI STILL cannot use black lotus strike. they'll constantly try to follow it up with a dual.
-AI does not use primal rage at all.
-AI still tries to gain energy with melandru's shot. that is, they'll use it when they are low on energy. they won't ever get the conditions unless it's purely by accident.
-AI cannot use incendiary arrows properly. they still think it's a preparation.

the list goes on and on. even ray of judgment does not function 100% on AI.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Necs energy management are dependent on SR from minions or Sols. Not all places in PvE have lots of exploitable corpses even though most places do. Also ER Ele has great health renewal besides energy renewal. That is how certain human ER Eles can just spam infuse health, which grants a higher heal than even WoH, for free. But I still dont trust the AI to work that trick out.

You dont need to micro as much if you synergize ER with orders. With orders spamming, chances are high that the last enchantment on the ER ele is an order enchantment so that would be the first to be stripped for a normal (i.e. not deep) enchant removal, rather than ER itself. There is still a small risk of being stripped but I think that risk is generally worth it. ER eles also become more efficient when they wear more enchantments.
shh, what about kills? xD

shaygo

shaygo

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

N/

... back to the OP ...

It depends on what character you have and which area you're doing at the moment.
There are many good hero builds, some of them actually synergize with each other. for example, a SF ele with a "they're on fire" paragon. I usually take those two and a minion bomber ( you can't run with no necros at all, can you ?).
I usually take [steam] with a few points in water magic, and [epidemic] on my SF ele's bar, to make him nuke AND blind everything. there are some spear attacks which I can't recall their names right now that benefit from your foe suffering from a condition - use them on your paragon's bar.
In most places I leave the healling and protting to the henchmen. I don't know if that's the best solution but at least I don't have to think about their energy management ( cause I can't do anything about it anyway ).

distilledwill

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

Seems like this thread has sparked quite a bit of debate. Skimming around this, I'm just going to post the heroes I've been using with my Rit. I'll post my rit build too as I tailored the heroes to meet her needs:

[build name="Player" build prof=Rt channel=12+1+1 resto=12+1][Offering of Spirit][Splinter Weapon][Ancestors' Rage][Soothing Memories][Weapon of Warding][Protective Was kaolai][Recuperation][Flesh of my Flesh][/build]

[build name="ER Prot/Smite Infuser" build prof=E/Mo Energy=12+1+2 Prot=6 smit=10 heal=6][Infuse][Draw Conditions][Smite Hex][Protective Spirit][Zealot's Fire][Aura of Restoration][Ether Renewal][Strength of Honor][/build]

Make sure you give this guy a +20% enchant weapon. Great healer, buffs your sin hero whilst throwing prot spirit around with no energy management problems. He also deals with conditions in a timely fashion as he only really has 4 jobs, hex removal, infuse, prot spirit and drawing.

[Build name="Jagged MM/Curse" build prof=N soulreaping=9+1 curses=9+1 deathmagic=12+1+1][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Mark of Pain][Rip Enchantment][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Again, a +20% enchant weapon is recommended but not essential. He'll throw out a nice minion wall (which refreshes with JB) whilst still keeping DPS stupidly high with fiends/MoP. Decided to go with only a minor rune on his head to keep his health high, its only one fewer minion anyway!

[build name="Crit Scythe" build prof=A/D criticalstrikes=12+1+1 Scythe=12 deadlyarts=3 PVE][wounding Strike][Mystic Sweep][Chilling Victory][Malicious Strike][Disrupting Dagger][Way of the Master][Critical Eye][Resurrection Signet][/build]

This lady is the real damage dealer, stick SoH on her (from the ER hero) and then watch as she tears through eeeveryone. D-Dagger is just a utility slot that is nicely filled with a ranged interupt - swap this out for dash when in lower-end PvE areas and enemies are dying before she reaches them.

I know the follies of using melee heroes, poor pathfinding and target switching AI etc, but I fancied something different and the AoE scythe attacks really make the best use of Splinter Weapon and MoP.

Snow Bunny

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by distilledwill View Post
Seems like this thread has sparked quite a bit of debate. Skimming around this, I'm just going to post the heroes I've been using with my Rit. I'll post my rit build too as I tailored the heroes to meet her needs:

[build name="Player" build prof=Rt channel=12+1+1 resto=12+1][Offering of Spirit][Splinter Weapon][Ancestors' Rage][Soothing Memories][Weapon of Warding][Protective Was kaolai][Recuperation][Flesh of my Flesh][/build]

[build name="ER Prot/Smite Infuser" build prof=E/Mo Energy=12+1+2 Prot=6 smit=10 heal=6][Infuse][Draw Conditions][Smite Hex][Protective Spirit][Zealot's Fire][Aura of Restoration][Ether Renewal][Strength of Honor][/build]

Make sure you give this guy a +20% enchant weapon. Great healer, buffs your sin hero whilst throwing prot spirit around with no energy management problems. He also deals with conditions in a timely fashion as he only really has 4 jobs, hex removal, infuse, prot spirit and drawing.

[Build name="Jagged MM/Curse" build prof=N soulreaping=9+1 curses=9+1 deathmagic=12+1+1][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Mark of Pain][Rip Enchantment][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Again, a +20% enchant weapon is recommended but not essential. He'll throw out a nice minion wall (which refreshes with JB) whilst still keeping DPS stupidly high with fiends/MoP. Decided to go with only a minor rune on his head to keep his health high, its only one fewer minion anyway!

[build name="Crit Scythe" build prof=A/D criticalstrikes=12+1+1 Scythe=12 deadlyarts=3 PVE][wounding Strike][Mystic Sweep][Chilling Victory][Malicious Strike][Disrupting Dagger][Way of the Master][Critical Eye][Resurrection Signet][/build]

This lady is the real damage dealer, stick SoH on her (from the ER hero) and then watch as she tears through eeeveryone. D-Dagger is just a utility slot that is nicely filled with a ranged interupt - swap this out for dash when in lower-end PvE areas and enemies are dying before she reaches them.

I know the follies of using melee heroes, poor pathfinding and target switching AI etc, but I fancied something different and the AoE scythe attacks really make the best use of Splinter Weapon and MoP. Why would you play the bitch role and let a hero frontline?

distilledwill

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post
Why would you play the bitch role and let a hero frontline? Cus I'm not entirely convinced that sticking my survivor rit up front with a scythe is the best way to get legendary.

Plus I don't always feel like blowing crap up all the time.

infamous16

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post
Why would you play the bitch role and let a hero frontline? Splinter and AR is all you need...

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

doesnt make any sense, melee heroes/henchies are terrible.

Also, sole reason RoJ is used and loved in PvE is because things dont scatter from it aror ignoring bit is just icing on a cake.

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

too bad heroes can't use arcane echo+RoJ. my awesome me/mo nuker doesn't work nearly as well as i thought it would

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenHQ View Post
I've recently played Sabway/Discordway so much I'm sick of having three Necros... so I tried the 3x RoJ build+ MM... but I think I'm actually sick of running 3x of the similar buillds so I'm trying to figure out how to make a decent Hero team by not using all the same profession...

Early on when NF came out, I would run hero/hench the old fashioned way, as if they were all hench- picking which professions/skills I needed for the moment. After awhile, I settled on to 3x SF E/Me/(Me/E) which I took almost everywhere. Then the Sabway and now RoJ.

In Sabway theres: The Player, MM hero, Rt Healer hero and (Curse Nuke SS hero)

Has anyone figured out decent builds that work using either Ritualtist or Monk as the Healer, Ele or Mes as the Nuke, and Ritualist or Necro as MM? And under the condition that none of the three Heroes have the same Primary? I have done this for a long time, and use the same 3 heroes on all of my characters for 'general NM PvE'. 2 I always use, the third I will swap based on need/area.

Dunkoro as a healer (if in an area with 4 or 6 players on the team, I'll maybe make him a hybrid, but if there is a Prot hench he uses this).

12+1+1 Healing Prayers
12+1 Divine Favor
3+1 Protection Prayers

[ethereal light][dwayna's kiss][orison of healing][cure hex][dismiss condition][holy haste][unyielding aura][signet of rejuvenation]

Livia as my MM. Again, I vary he slightly based on the area, but not much or often.

12+1+3 Death Magic
8+2 Soul Reaping (yep, I'm not afraid to lower her health)
10 Healing Prayers
2+1 Blood Magic

[animate bone minions][animate shambling horror][death nova][jagged bones][blood of the master][heal area][dark bond][restore life]

Last one is either Gwen or Vekk, occassionally Sousuke instead of Vekk. Gwen is my most commonly used though, and if I want/need some interrupts other than the hench (Daemon/Zho) I may take Jin instead.

12+1+1 Illusion Magic
8+1 Fast Casting
10+1 Inspiration Magic
2 Healing Prayers

[tease][clumsiness][wandering eye][frustration][power return][power drain][optional][resurrection chant]

Her optional is typically [inspired hex], [shrinking armor], [arcane conundrum], or [phantom pain].

Carboplatin

Carboplatin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

[PIG]

W/A

[visions of regret][empathy][backfire] mesmers combined with a [spiteful spirit][insidious parasite] necro is always fun.

-edit guru needs to update their skill desc. VoR is now anyskill and is AoE.

faraaz

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2008

India

Hey Mallyx [icU]

A/

Para with They're on Fire & Stunning Spear, Searing Flames Ele & Fevered Dreams Mesmer running wep of shadow...its fun for questing in NM while I get my 3rd account to DoA

street peddler

street peddler

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

my heroes usually consist of, a rit healer, a minion bomber, and then anything i feel like using in the third slot, right now its a mesmer with Tease and rit support skills.