HM Dungeons question
Sweetster
I should probably wait to ask this as I haven't beaten EoTN on NM yet but as of right now, I'm finding it difficult to clear some of the dungeons. For example, I can't get thru Vloxen Excavations solo w/heros + henchies. My question is this: Do HM dungeons require the cookie-cutter team builds on PVXwiki? Is it possible to do these dungeons with just 'regular old builds'? I understand that not any team makeup/build will work and I do know how important it is to know what you're up against but right now it just seems like these dungeons are a little hard and quite frankly, I'm scared to attempt HM once I get it unlocked...Anyways, I'm not looking for builds, just general opinions on dungeons and their difficulty. Thanks in advance!
Icy The Mage
Most Eye of the North dungeons are difficult because they are what the harder side of Eye of the North is comprised of. A small amount of dungeons are easy, but the main point of Eye of the North was to introduce, newer, more challenging content. Thus, you will find that most of the dungeons require more work and thought than ordinary missions or quests. Although most dungeons do not require cookie-cutter builds from PvX-Wiki or the like, they do require some analysis and work.
P.s. Be very, very afraid of Hard Mode... :\
P.s. Be very, very afraid of Hard Mode... :\
Spiritz
You dont actually need to do dungeons to complete eotn.
I think theres only 1 or 2 dungeons you do in storyline - the dungeons are mainly there ( in my books ) as a sideline to keep players interested .. bit like uw/fow.
Ive done maybe 2 dungeons since ive had eotn ( from start ) and only now starting to do them and ive done eotn 2x.
Hardmode is going to be a lot harder but better drops and rep as well but dont be scared of it.Pvx may have a load of hero builds etc but think of it this way , use them builds in nm to learn what foes are vs you and then do same for hm.The info you gain will help you decide on making standard hero builds that can be used after for a challenge.
Research is a nasty word - who wants to research when you can be kicking butt but in the long run it pays off to kno what your against and anything learned is vital.
Doing eotn with sin first then comming back months later and doing again on a monk was fun and a learning curve as i blasted thru eotn in a matter of days and now im farming hm with monk and finding places to farm and enjoy the fighting.
I think theres only 1 or 2 dungeons you do in storyline - the dungeons are mainly there ( in my books ) as a sideline to keep players interested .. bit like uw/fow.
Ive done maybe 2 dungeons since ive had eotn ( from start ) and only now starting to do them and ive done eotn 2x.
Hardmode is going to be a lot harder but better drops and rep as well but dont be scared of it.Pvx may have a load of hero builds etc but think of it this way , use them builds in nm to learn what foes are vs you and then do same for hm.The info you gain will help you decide on making standard hero builds that can be used after for a challenge.
Research is a nasty word - who wants to research when you can be kicking butt but in the long run it pays off to kno what your against and anything learned is vital.
Doing eotn with sin first then comming back months later and doing again on a monk was fun and a learning curve as i blasted thru eotn in a matter of days and now im farming hm with monk and finding places to farm and enjoy the fighting.
Shayne Hawke
If you haven't finished the storyline to Eye of the North, you're probably not ready to tackle a dungeon. That aside, I would not enter many of the dungeons with the same mindset that I would general PvP.
Most will have specific goals such as flipping a gate lock, or defeating a specific monster, or will have certain traps in the way that may require you to change your team setup. HM is not to be taken lightly in these areas.
If you want an opinion on what dungeons are generally the toughest, that issue has been addressed and you can search for an appropriate thread. You may want to look up each dungeon on the wiki before you attempt to go through it. I'd say as a general rule that the number of floors a dungeon has is proportional to its difficulty.
Most will have specific goals such as flipping a gate lock, or defeating a specific monster, or will have certain traps in the way that may require you to change your team setup. HM is not to be taken lightly in these areas.
If you want an opinion on what dungeons are generally the toughest, that issue has been addressed and you can search for an appropriate thread. You may want to look up each dungeon on the wiki before you attempt to go through it. I'd say as a general rule that the number of floors a dungeon has is proportional to its difficulty.
Chthon
Are we talking about Vloxen NM or Vloxen HM that's giving you trouble?
Vloxen NM is a walk in the park (except the boss might manage to wipe you once with H+H healers). If you're having trouble, we need to help you figure out what you're doing wrong so you can fix it.
Vloxen HM is probably the hardest dungeon. The mob composition is changed to include a large number of very nasty stone summit mobs with double monks and tons of rezzes. If that's the only thing causing you trouble, don't worry. Trouble with HM Vloxen is pretty normal.
Vloxen NM is a walk in the park (except the boss might manage to wipe you once with H+H healers). If you're having trouble, we need to help you figure out what you're doing wrong so you can fix it.
Vloxen HM is probably the hardest dungeon. The mob composition is changed to include a large number of very nasty stone summit mobs with double monks and tons of rezzes. If that's the only thing causing you trouble, don't worry. Trouble with HM Vloxen is pretty normal.
Revelations
Most of the dungeons are relatively easy with random crap builds in NM. Just run whatever you deem fun or amusing. Slavers might take a bit more coordination though; it's probably the hardest dungeon in NM.
However, if you do plan on switching to HM any time soon, you really should start thinking about using builds with some synergy, and start abusing some of the imbalances Anet has given you. Vloxen Excavations is TOUGH on HM, it takes patience, skill, and above all you need to buildwars pve to complete it successfully.
I don't mean to sound like an ass here, but maybe its time to realise that a lot of the builds that you'll find on PvX are there because they are effective. Regardless of whether they're cookie cutter' or not (someone please enlighten me to the definition of this term as applied to GW, because I really don't see it.), builds like Sabway and Discordway are very good at winning PvE. And if by 'cookie cutter' you mean they're completely set in stone, unmodifiable and work only as given, then you couldn't be more wrong. Sab and Discord are both very versatile, and very customizable to your own preference.
Bottom line; you will have extreme trouble H/Hing (some) HM dungeons without abusing one or more of the following:
["Save yourselves"|"Save yourselves"]
[Discord|Discord]
Soul Reaping
A 600 build or similar
Other various PvE only skills.
However, if you do plan on switching to HM any time soon, you really should start thinking about using builds with some synergy, and start abusing some of the imbalances Anet has given you. Vloxen Excavations is TOUGH on HM, it takes patience, skill, and above all you need to buildwars pve to complete it successfully.
I don't mean to sound like an ass here, but maybe its time to realise that a lot of the builds that you'll find on PvX are there because they are effective. Regardless of whether they're cookie cutter' or not (someone please enlighten me to the definition of this term as applied to GW, because I really don't see it.), builds like Sabway and Discordway are very good at winning PvE. And if by 'cookie cutter' you mean they're completely set in stone, unmodifiable and work only as given, then you couldn't be more wrong. Sab and Discord are both very versatile, and very customizable to your own preference.
Bottom line; you will have extreme trouble H/Hing (some) HM dungeons without abusing one or more of the following:
["Save yourselves"|"Save yourselves"]
[Discord|Discord]
Soul Reaping
A 600 build or similar
Other various PvE only skills.
payne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelations
Bottom line; you will have extreme trouble H/Hing (some) HM dungeons without abusing one or more of the following:
["Save yourselves"|"Save yourselves"]
[Discord|Discord]
Soul Reaping
A 600 build or similar
Other various PvE only skills. WHAT?
only if you are not good at the game...you DO NOT need to abuse PvE skills / discord lameway SR e-management healer or 600monks....SY? why?
just don't be an idiot and play smart then it is not hard...
<< do not follow the quoted advice plz
["Save yourselves"|"Save yourselves"]
[Discord|Discord]
Soul Reaping
A 600 build or similar
Other various PvE only skills. WHAT?
only if you are not good at the game...you DO NOT need to abuse PvE skills / discord lameway SR e-management healer or 600monks....SY? why?
just don't be an idiot and play smart then it is not hard...
<< do not follow the quoted advice plz
Ewa Kirch
My general advice for HM dungeons with h/h would be (in no particular order):
1) Bring frozen soil where foes have a res.
2) Flag h/h back and pull mobs back to them.
3) Patience - take your time - fight them on your terms when you are ready!
4) Enchantment removal and interupts can make it a lot easier.
5) Body block foes from h/h as much as you can - use walls/corners and bring a minion bomber necro hero to help as well.
6) Melee h/h are useless in HM - forever running around chasing foes - never actually hitting anything.
1) Bring frozen soil where foes have a res.
2) Flag h/h back and pull mobs back to them.
3) Patience - take your time - fight them on your terms when you are ready!
4) Enchantment removal and interupts can make it a lot easier.
5) Body block foes from h/h as much as you can - use walls/corners and bring a minion bomber necro hero to help as well.
6) Melee h/h are useless in HM - forever running around chasing foes - never actually hitting anything.
Revelations
Quote:
Originally Posted by payne
only if you are not good at the game...you DO NOT need to abuse PvE skills / discord lameway SR e-management healer or 600monks....SY? why?
just don't be an idiot and play smart then it is not hard...
<< do not follow the quoted advice plz
Bottom line; you will have extreme trouble H/Hing (some) HM dungeons without abusing one or more of the following:
So where does it say that you NEED any one of those? You say not to play like an idiot, and yes this will get you a long way, but is it going to stop your idiot henchmen bunching up in sandstorm? Is it going to stop the immense pressure and insane defence that the massive stone summit groups present in Slaver's and Vlox can throw out?
Have you actually ever done Vlox in HM? I challenge you to finish it and bring back a screen without using any of what I mentioned. And for the record, if the poor OP can't finish it in NM then you expect him to breeze through in HM without any of what I mentioned to help him out?
Please don't derail this thread with idiot comments like "OMG U DONT NEED PVE SKILLS DONT BE DUMB," and please post something constructive to help the OP out.
Have you actually ever done Vlox in HM? I challenge you to finish it and bring back a screen without using any of what I mentioned. And for the record, if the poor OP can't finish it in NM then you expect him to breeze through in HM without any of what I mentioned to help him out?
Please don't derail this thread with idiot comments like "OMG U DONT NEED PVE SKILLS DONT BE DUMB," and please post something constructive to help the OP out.
Darcy
I would like to add that bringing Death Penalty removal items, such as candy canes, Refined Jelly, Four-Leaf Clover, etc. - or even a Powerstone to remove DP from whole party - can be a big help when on your own.
My biggest problem with the dungeons in any mode was having to quit when at the end or almost at the end, due to high DP.
My biggest problem with the dungeons in any mode was having to quit when at the end or almost at the end, due to high DP.
Jeydra
Personally I think standard HM H/H builds - i.e. Discord, Sab - are very much 'regular' (if highly overpowered). That's because when you use them, you just engage the enemy and fight a confused melee until they all die. Not so regular builds would include Cryway, Obsidian tanking, Ursan, and so on.
You can do most dungeons H/H, and I've done 18/20 of the dungeons this way. I'm also positive the ones I have not done - Shards of Orr and Rragar's Menagerie - can be done H/H, I've just never gotten to trying. It takes skill, PvE skill abuse and cookie-cutter builds. The hardest dungeons are probably Vloxen's, Shards and Duncan; the rest aren't that bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelations
You can do most dungeons H/H, and I've done 18/20 of the dungeons this way. I'm also positive the ones I have not done - Shards of Orr and Rragar's Menagerie - can be done H/H, I've just never gotten to trying. It takes skill, PvE skill abuse and cookie-cutter builds. The hardest dungeons are probably Vloxen's, Shards and Duncan; the rest aren't that bad.
Quote:
So where does it say that you NEED any one of those? You say not to play like an idiot, and yes this will get you a long way, but is it going to stop your idiot henchmen bunching up in sandstorm? Is it going to stop the immense pressure and insane defence that the massive stone summit groups present in Slaver's and Vlox can throw out?
How to stop your idiot henchmen bunching up in Sandstorm - simple, flag them.
Vloxen's HM is doable H/H, I did it myself a few times with Elementalist primary, no Save Yourselves, no Discord (although with Soul Reaping), no 600s and no PvE only skills except Breath of the Great Dwarf (although I did use Ether Renewal the PvE version). It's not an easy dungeon, no, but it's nowhere near as difficult as you portray it.
Vloxen's HM is doable H/H, I did it myself a few times with Elementalist primary, no Save Yourselves, no Discord (although with Soul Reaping), no 600s and no PvE only skills except Breath of the Great Dwarf (although I did use Ether Renewal the PvE version). It's not an easy dungeon, no, but it's nowhere near as difficult as you portray it.
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelations
Flagging works to an extent, but you can not flag henchies separately, and heroes still move utterly stupid distances from their flags anyway. The only really viable way of getting your h/h not to stand in aoe is to micro them out of it AFTER it has been set off, which is far from ideal.
You're not doing it right then. Flag your heroes into a crescent or something before you aggro. If I can do it in Forgewight, against the far more dangerous Searing Flames and in constricted areas besides, how hard can it be in Vloxen's ...
And I didn't use Sabway by the way, and no consets either.
And I didn't use Sabway by the way, and no consets either.
Revelations
Regardless of whether or not I am flagging my heroes correctly, or whether or not you finished the dungeon with minimal skill abuse, do you honestly recommend to OP go and try Vlox in HM without any OP skills/builds/cons etc.
The guy had trouble with it in NM, I advised him to use what he has been given and throw some Sabway/Discord/Get a 600/Save yourselves at it. If you actually have a good reason for the OP rejecting this advice, then go ahead and inform him why, instead of trying to explain to me why heroes are so stupid that they need such micro.
Put very simply, in terms that even a moron should understand: Yes, dungeons are doable without sab/discord/roj/SY/600/cryway/consets/pve skills/"Insert OP PvE Utility Here". Without any of these though you should expect a long uphill climb, requiring plenty of patience, pulling, micromanagement of heroes, buildwars, and probably dying.
Otherwise, I would highly recommend that for some of the tougher dungeons, you take what is overpowered and make full use of it. I'm not saying you have to, just that if you're having a tough time, then it would be a damn good idea.
The guy had trouble with it in NM, I advised him to use what he has been given and throw some Sabway/Discord/Get a 600/Save yourselves at it. If you actually have a good reason for the OP rejecting this advice, then go ahead and inform him why, instead of trying to explain to me why heroes are so stupid that they need such micro.
Put very simply, in terms that even a moron should understand: Yes, dungeons are doable without sab/discord/roj/SY/600/cryway/consets/pve skills/"Insert OP PvE Utility Here". Without any of these though you should expect a long uphill climb, requiring plenty of patience, pulling, micromanagement of heroes, buildwars, and probably dying.
Otherwise, I would highly recommend that for some of the tougher dungeons, you take what is overpowered and make full use of it. I'm not saying you have to, just that if you're having a tough time, then it would be a damn good idea.
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetster
I reject your original contention that you need stuff like Save Yourselves, Discord, etc. to do HM dungeons, and thus answer in the negative Sweetster's original question: no you do not require cookie-cutter team builds on PvX, and it is possible to do these dungeons with 'regular old builds'. You do not need to use 3 Discord heroes, or 3 Sab heroes, or 3 RoJ Monks ... although you will need to use good individual bars. Hell, I did Duncan HM H/H with VoR Mes, RoJ Monk and SS Necro as heroes. The individual bars are good, but it's a nameless team build.
By the way it's nice of you to go from saying it is essentially impossible to saying it's hard. I won't deny that it's hard, but I'll flat out reject saying it is impossible.
Revelations
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Highlighted for your convenience.
I reject your original contention that you need stuff like Save Yourselves, Discord, etc. to do HM dungeons, and thus answer in the negative Sweetster's original question: no you do not require cookie-cutter team builds on PvX, and it is possible to do these dungeons with 'regular old builds'. You do not need to use 3 Discord heroes, or 3 Sab heroes, or 3 RoJ Monks ... although you will need to use good individual bars. Hell, I did Duncan HM H/H with VoR Mes, RoJ Monk and SS Necro as heroes. The individual bars are good, but it's a nameless team build.
By the way it's nice of you to go from saying it is essentially impossible to saying it's hard. I won't deny that it's hard, but I'll flat out reject saying it is impossible. Since you're so good at highlighting things, why don't you highlight where I said it was 'essentially impossible,' or for that matter where I said that you need overpowered skills.
The OP had a tough time with Vlox in NM. That dungeon is MUCH harder in HM. I made it quite clear that it is perfectly possible to take a semi random H/H group and complete it, but there is no point rejecting some of the overpowered skills given to you if they make it easier. The only valid reason I can see for doing so is if you are still capable of finishing the dungeon with that team and you want a challenge. From what was said earlier it appears the OP will have challenge enough just switching to HM, so making it harder for himself by bringing decent builds without synergy is just going to gimp him further.
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Yes, the dungeons are possible without abusing overpowered skills. But they are far easier with skills like SY and builds like sab/discord. Surely you cannot refute that?
I reject your original contention that you need stuff like Save Yourselves, Discord, etc. to do HM dungeons, and thus answer in the negative Sweetster's original question: no you do not require cookie-cutter team builds on PvX, and it is possible to do these dungeons with 'regular old builds'. You do not need to use 3 Discord heroes, or 3 Sab heroes, or 3 RoJ Monks ... although you will need to use good individual bars. Hell, I did Duncan HM H/H with VoR Mes, RoJ Monk and SS Necro as heroes. The individual bars are good, but it's a nameless team build.
By the way it's nice of you to go from saying it is essentially impossible to saying it's hard. I won't deny that it's hard, but I'll flat out reject saying it is impossible. Since you're so good at highlighting things, why don't you highlight where I said it was 'essentially impossible,' or for that matter where I said that you need overpowered skills.
The OP had a tough time with Vlox in NM. That dungeon is MUCH harder in HM. I made it quite clear that it is perfectly possible to take a semi random H/H group and complete it, but there is no point rejecting some of the overpowered skills given to you if they make it easier. The only valid reason I can see for doing so is if you are still capable of finishing the dungeon with that team and you want a challenge. From what was said earlier it appears the OP will have challenge enough just switching to HM, so making it harder for himself by bringing decent builds without synergy is just going to gimp him further.
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Yes, the dungeons are possible without abusing overpowered skills. But they are far easier with skills like SY and builds like sab/discord. Surely you cannot refute that?
Jeydra
I knew you'd say that, and so here you go. First it began with you saying it's very hard:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelations
Quote:
"Save yourselves"
Discord
Soul Reaping
A 600 build or similar
Other various PvE only skills.
Quote: Originally Posted by Revelations Have you actually ever done Vlox in HM? I challenge you to finish it and bring back a screen without using any of what I mentioned. And for the record, if the poor OP can't finish it in NM then you expect him to breeze through in HM without any of what I mentioned to help him out? Which was essentially a claim that it could not be done. You made this even more concrete here:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Revelations
My advice to the OP was that to be viable in a HM dungeon like Vlox you need to use skills and builds that are somewhat overpowered. No one has managed to successfully dispute this and tbh I don't think you can. In any case, short of elite areas, you cannot deny that the groups of stone summit present in that dungeon have some of the most intense pressure and defence in the game, and require far more organized builds than the OP was probably using in NM.
Since single-character builds don't have to be organized, you've pretty much claimed that you need organized team builds to do it.
By the way both Sabway and Discordway couldn't get me through Duncan HM. Both Sabway and Discordway couldn't get me through Vloxen's HM either. So I would again challenge your claim that dungeons are far easier with sab / discord. If they worked for you, do post screenshots. As for Save Yourselves, that's not a teambuild but a single skill - unless there's a teambuild somewhere I've not heard off with two or more Warriors chaining SY so that it is constantly up, in which case yes, you don't need that either (can't even do that when you're H/H'ing ...). |