Players/guilds are expected to not participate in any form of ladder or match manipulation. Ladder or match manipulation is defined as any actions taken to (i) fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or (ii) alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the tournament ladder, which deviates from guilds actually playing and completing battles in good faith. Throwing matches or getting your opponent's to throw them to you are examples of ladder manipulation because ratings and rankings are changed without actual game play taking place.
This brings me to a problem which has been going on for MONTHS, and has resulted in a complete rating decrease of nearly every active guild on the ladder, essentially ruining the historic integrity the ladder was made for.
Guilds are signing up for Automated Tournaments with the intention of recieving the -25. If this only happened occasionally I would believe that it may not be intentional manipulation, but upon inspecting some of the guilds that consistently manipulate the ladder, It becomes clear that they are guilty.
Now while it may seem that guilds tanking themselves has no effect on others, but that would be incorrect. Since these guilds are so active, they constantly play and win over other teams with their tanked rating, which in turn effects other guilds rating more than it should. What ends up happening is every active guild loses rating. The effects of this can be seen when you notice that 7 of the top 8 guilds on the ladder don't actually play anymore, and that everyone below has been tanked to oblivion.
It is not just them that tank however, there is a much larger demographic that does it less frequently. I can name several off the top of my head which i have seen manipulating AT's.
My question is this: Are these guilds in violation of those stated rules, or is there some exception that I am not aware of that enables guilds to manipulate the ladder? As I see it, these teams are manipulating the rankings and ratings of the ladder, while not competing or completing battles in good faith.
This is not even to mention the Blood-spike guilds which have been plastered on observer mode for weeks, in which teams are going in with heroes and resigning to each other to farm champ points, but I would prefer if that discussion were moved to another thread as to not detract from my initial topic.
Dear Regina: is this ladder manipulation?
Jatt
Draikin
The rules seem pretty clear so I think you already know the answer to your question. However it's also clear now that Anet will only take action on matters like this when people report the guilds in question, and I doubt anyone has actually bothered to report guilds for ladder manipulation.
phan
Let's take away their capes !
ChopChop
The big issue is that while it seems innocent enough that some guilds 'game' the system to get more champ points, in the end it hurts everyone.
When rating is tanked out of the ladder the active guilds will have much lower than 'normal' rating, thus the guilds participating in tournaments cannot get higher rating than the older 'inactive' guilds (bought guilds who play 1 game each 3 months).
Who cares about guild ranks?
Right, but the problem is when everyone is lower ranked, many games do not become available on observe mode, this hurts everyone who want to observe the 'top' games (much larger demographic than people actually playing them).
Who cares about rating?
It makes it much harder to justify competing in daily and monthly tournaments on higher ranked guilds as you risk a disproportionately high amount of rating, while rating isn't the end all be all, many people do get disappointed when they play their best and get nothing out of it in the end.
Lower average rating also means far less champ point range guilds, essentially the tanking guilds are hoarding the champ points for them self (see American time GvGs).
Solution
Reduce the rating loss from forfeits to 5 rating (this will have the same effect on zkey farmers, but wont allow guilds to really abuse the system)
Increase k-value from ladder play back to 25, this will increase the amount of rating on the ladder by a steady amount and counteract any damage those guilds are doing, this will also mean that top100 will consist of the active guilds.. and thus is the best solution for everyone.
When rating is tanked out of the ladder the active guilds will have much lower than 'normal' rating, thus the guilds participating in tournaments cannot get higher rating than the older 'inactive' guilds (bought guilds who play 1 game each 3 months).
Who cares about guild ranks?
Right, but the problem is when everyone is lower ranked, many games do not become available on observe mode, this hurts everyone who want to observe the 'top' games (much larger demographic than people actually playing them).
Who cares about rating?
It makes it much harder to justify competing in daily and monthly tournaments on higher ranked guilds as you risk a disproportionately high amount of rating, while rating isn't the end all be all, many people do get disappointed when they play their best and get nothing out of it in the end.
Lower average rating also means far less champ point range guilds, essentially the tanking guilds are hoarding the champ points for them self (see American time GvGs).
Solution
Reduce the rating loss from forfeits to 5 rating (this will have the same effect on zkey farmers, but wont allow guilds to really abuse the system)
Increase k-value from ladder play back to 25, this will increase the amount of rating on the ladder by a steady amount and counteract any damage those guilds are doing, this will also mean that top100 will consist of the active guilds.. and thus is the best solution for everyone.
MMSDome
If this be the case for Guild Versus Guild then ban Ares The Vanquisher and Jenn from Hero Battles forever.
Rofl.
Rofl.
Massive Impulsa
One thing i find really strange, was that when rawr did intentional get a draw, in the swiss? rounds the punish they got was to remove their guildcape for that month. But what about that HvH FINALÈ, which was pretty much fixed beforehand. Then ANet didnt do anything to punish thoose. I tought the rules was same in HvH aswell as GvG?
MMSDome
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Originally Posted by Massive Impulsa
One thing i find really strange, was that when rawr did intentional get a draw, in the swiss? rounds the punish they got was to remove their guildcape for that month. But what about that HvH FINALÈ, which was pretty much fixed beforehand. Then ANet didnt do anything to punish thoose. I tought the rules was same in HvH aswell as GvG?
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Even though A-Net should care about hero battles they don't. They dont realize that a majority of the top 16 HB'ers tie in order to get in to the swiss rounds and no uproar from anet.
Makes no sense.
Nibbit
Lawl i see where this is coming from.
But anyways: The solution(s) that have been suggested by chop Chop The Panda to fix it is in my opinion good.
Seeing as this will be better for the gvg community anyhow i am forced to say:
/signed
But anyways: The solution(s) that have been suggested by chop Chop The Panda to fix it is in my opinion good.
Seeing as this will be better for the gvg community anyhow i am forced to say:
/signed
IMMORTAlMITCH
My attention was drawn to this thread, I think izzy's hands are kinda tied on this one.
Robster Lobster
Good point, I think these offenders should be punished by having maybe 100 rating taken off of them, that would probably make them think twice about doing it again.
Massive Impulsa
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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH
My attention was drawn to this thread, I think izzy's hands are kinda tied on this one.
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A Bad feeeling Rawr is gonna hear that a long time forward.. Altough they did actually lose their gold cape/punishment, and im pretty sure if someone actually lost their Gold Trim, they would been furious like RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO:P - Luckly for rawr they have like 8other:P
Fates
well written post.
That being said, good luck getting Regina to respond in here. Maybe you should post it in her wiki, where she may respond, and where no one will see it unless it gets copied/pasted here.
That being said, good luck getting Regina to respond in here. Maybe you should post it in her wiki, where she may respond, and where no one will see it unless it gets copied/pasted here.
Sun Fired Blank
Yes, it's ladder manipulation, but to be frank, I doubt anyone really cares about this kind of shit unless there's gold trim and $2,500 USD of zkeys on the line. Abuse like this is going to occur as long as there's an exploitable automated system in place of some kind of judge. In fact just about every questionable or outright despicable thing, whether a clear violation of written rules or just a general rule of thumb to not be a jerk or an exploiter, is going to be done routinely as long as we rely on mechanical solutions to a human problem. There is basically no incentive to provide a human solution anymore.
Red Sonya
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Fates
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Originally Posted by Red Sonya
Sorry I disagree with this as active or non-active a guild should maintain its status and rank based on skilled play not TIME played as so many of you always scream about it should be SKILL > TIME remember?
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Snow Bunny
You should do a conga line in protest.
Ate of DK
I think it's ladder manipulation. I also think the top rankings are full with inactive guilds and some that prefer smurfing. Since the [rawr]-draw was dealt with fast, I'd like a fast treatment here as well.
Jeydra
I can't see any reason why this shouldn't be labelled as ladder manipulation to be honest, although I have no idea how to fix it.
Barbie goes guru
People occasionally forfeit AT's due to not enough members / people going afk, whatever there are many reasons. You have put forward that these teams intentionally forfeit, but I can argue that judging by how often these guilds do it, they are just extremely prone to accidentally forfeiting. Could happen to anyone right?
Perhaps if there were screenshots of them doing a conga around the guildhall shouting 'LOLOLOL we're cheating the system' in local chat you might have a case, but as of now all you have is speculation.
To me this is a bitter rant to get back at others for complaining about your conga line. In fact I fully support this quote:
Perhaps if there were screenshots of them doing a conga around the guildhall shouting 'LOLOLOL we're cheating the system' in local chat you might have a case, but as of now all you have is speculation.
To me this is a bitter rant to get back at others for complaining about your conga line. In fact I fully support this quote:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH
My attention was drawn to this thread, I think izzy's hands are kinda tied on this one.
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Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Barbie goes guru
People occasionally forfeit AT's due to not enough members / people going afk, whatever there are many reasons. You have put forward that these teams intentionally forfeit, but I can argue that judging by how often these guilds do it, they are just extremely prone to accidentally forfeiting. Could happen to anyone right?
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Although I agree that this thread looks like a 'get my own back' conga line thread, what's mentioned is still ladder manipulation and in the interest of fairness, it should be fixed ...
bursta91
Totally agree with Jatt on the last point about the bspikers. They arent even bspiking, just getting their synced up guilds to resign out.
Now thats some "predetermining the outcome of matches".
Now thats some "predetermining the outcome of matches".
Lycan Nibbler
Why no mention of the "pseudo" guilds that enter the AT's (usually late night American) with no intention to take part but are only there only to fill up the AT to let their "friends(alt accounts)" farm QP/RPs from an AT that would not take place otherwise.
It seems there was a big stink when the "afk" guilds were taking part, yet when some abuse goes on that benefits the higher guilds, then nothing is done about it.
It seems there was a big stink when the "afk" guilds were taking part, yet when some abuse goes on that benefits the higher guilds, then nothing is done about it.
Jatt
One thing I don't care about is if/when/how any guild is punished.
What I do want to happen is for the tanking to stop, and for the ladder to regain some integrity.
Name-calling and past unrelated infractions need not be posted here.
What I do want to happen is for the tanking to stop, and for the ladder to regain some integrity.
Name-calling and past unrelated infractions need not be posted here.
![Ec]-[oMaN](/static/static/../Img/avatar8384_2.gif){kind=avatar}
Ec]-[oMaN
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Originally Posted by Jatt
One thing I don't care about is if/when/how any guild is punished.
What I do want to happen is for the tanking to stop, and for the ladder to regain some integrity. Name-calling and past unrelated infractions need not be posted here. |
I D E L E T E D I
Correct me if I am wrong here, but did [rawr] not do exactly the same thing with [Team]( can't remember the Tag properly now) to get enough QP for last Months mAT?
I can't seem to find the guild on the ladder anymore either? Disbanded Guild to make this thread?
I can't seem to find the guild on the ladder anymore either? Disbanded Guild to make this thread?
Jensy
From the outside, it looks like everyone who *wants* to play the late night American AT has to fling in some fake guilds, just to have someone there to compete with. As an avid AT observer, I see it every night. "Blah blah gets us free rps" teams, or teams with ridonkulous names like "Pedo Bear Bait [kid]" and such.
This doesn't make the problem any better, and it seems stuck in some weird cycle at the moment. It's probably just the fact that we don't have very many unique people actually playing, and you see the same people dotted over guilds up and down the ladder.
But, I agree that new 'unique' teams would most likely be roflstomped by dP/gg/anyone else tanking their rating to do this, thus driving anyone who could potentially play to run away screaming. It's fun playing against people of your own skill level... it's just depressing to be slammed in the face after 2 minutes *g*
Also, to the 'lol conga' 'lol rawr' crowd - jeez, you people are so last month *g*
eta: iirc, [rawr] 'played' some smurf guilds in January for their QP's. I'm guessing this was because of a general lack of anyone else to play against when they could herd all 8 players on their own team together in one place. This didn't happen in Feb, as I watched all of the matches they played for their QP then. No, I don't watch too much obs, shh >_>
This doesn't make the problem any better, and it seems stuck in some weird cycle at the moment. It's probably just the fact that we don't have very many unique people actually playing, and you see the same people dotted over guilds up and down the ladder.
But, I agree that new 'unique' teams would most likely be roflstomped by dP/gg/anyone else tanking their rating to do this, thus driving anyone who could potentially play to run away screaming. It's fun playing against people of your own skill level... it's just depressing to be slammed in the face after 2 minutes *g*
Also, to the 'lol conga' 'lol rawr' crowd - jeez, you people are so last month *g*
eta: iirc, [rawr] 'played' some smurf guilds in January for their QP's. I'm guessing this was because of a general lack of anyone else to play against when they could herd all 8 players on their own team together in one place. This didn't happen in Feb, as I watched all of the matches they played for their QP then. No, I don't watch too much obs, shh >_>
dusanyu
What we need is a Good Old Fashioned ladder reset (about every 4 months or so)
1. it would restore Dignity to the ladder
2. it would pull some of the Dead guilds out of the top 10
3. it would force some of the High ranked Guilds to Play ladder games.
1. it would restore Dignity to the ladder
2. it would pull some of the Dead guilds out of the top 10
3. it would force some of the High ranked Guilds to Play ladder games.
Unu Corey
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
You should do a conga line in protest.
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Div
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Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank
Yes, it's ladder manipulation, but to be frank, I doubt anyone really cares about this kind of shit unless there's gold trim and $2,500 USD of zkeys on the line.
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Take a look at champ farming manipulation for example. Go to ventaris and you generally see champs sold at 4zkeys a point. I've seen people buy and/or manipulate up to c6. That's 466 points, or 1864zkeys per person. It's certainly more than the 900 for winning a mAT.
cataphract
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
Take a look at champ farming manipulation for example. Go to ventaris and you generally see champs sold at 4zkeys a point. I've seen people buy and/or manipulate up to c6. That's 466 points, or 1864zkeys per person. It's certainly more than the 900 for winning a mAT.
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EDIT: Hi, Linsey. /wave
Sweet Mystery
Rules are rules, and if people are breaking them over and over then Anet need to deal with it. They recently reposted rules about tournaments, time for them to act on those and not just show them and say "hey look what we have here"
I D E L E T E D I
Well here is the thing. The only time Guild Wars matters now is once a Month at the mAT, ladder and ATs don't don't mean squat all.
The game has had quite a long life considering and ANet themselves have acknowledged that which you can see at how "mildly" [rawr] and [zero] got punished compared to [QQ], with Regina somewhere saying the decision was partially based on the current situation of Guild Wars or something along those lines.
And Jatt here is another question for you. You are saying it is unfair that these guilds are purposly tanking their rating, because by them playing again they would give loses to lower ranked guilds with a higher rating loss for said guild. So does that mean guilds should not be allowed to run Smurfs anymore seeing as that might then be considered Ladder Manipulation itself?
EDIT: Removed unnecessary comment.
The game has had quite a long life considering and ANet themselves have acknowledged that which you can see at how "mildly" [rawr] and [zero] got punished compared to [QQ], with Regina somewhere saying the decision was partially based on the current situation of Guild Wars or something along those lines.
And Jatt here is another question for you. You are saying it is unfair that these guilds are purposly tanking their rating, because by them playing again they would give loses to lower ranked guilds with a higher rating loss for said guild. So does that mean guilds should not be allowed to run Smurfs anymore seeing as that might then be considered Ladder Manipulation itself?
EDIT: Removed unnecessary comment.
Jatt
Like i said before i don't care if anyone gets punished, I just want the tanking to stop. the ladder is in complete shambles because of it. I figured since it was explicitly stated in the rules that I could get some action this way. This is an issue i have been complaining about for months.
I D E L E T E D I
Pretty sure Ladder has not mattered since the introduction of mAT's which is roughly 2 years now? Why suddenly show so much /care for it now?
Lycan Nibbler
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Originally Posted by dusanyu
What we need is a Good Old Fashioned ladder reset (about every 4 months or so)
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cataphract
I'd rather people stopped taking things so seriously.
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by cataphract
Because, hopefully, people will cease being impressed with all titles and stop being pricks to one another.
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Jensy
I don't think that all of the elite pvp community wants to keep things exclusive, but I could be wrong. The giant circle jerk of just beating the same people over and over has to get, well, dull. I mean, I get bored fighting the same monsters in PvE -- after facing the same people over and over, you'd no doubt get used to their play style and noobstomp them in the same way. Zzzzz.
What I want to know is, how much of the tanking is done to roll over noobs, and how much is done to just have people available to play against? Meaning, getting a team right away vs standing around going DURRR in the GH while it waits for a team for you to fight?
I'm not saying this excuses it, it's just something people toss around whenever the topic of smurfing comes up... which I reckon is another topic entirely so I'll stop here :P
What I want to know is, how much of the tanking is done to roll over noobs, and how much is done to just have people available to play against? Meaning, getting a team right away vs standing around going DURRR in the GH while it waits for a team for you to fight?
I'm not saying this excuses it, it's just something people toss around whenever the topic of smurfing comes up... which I reckon is another topic entirely so I'll stop here :P
Jatt
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Originally Posted by pansy malfoy
What I want to know is, how much of the tanking is done to roll over noobs, and how much is done to just have people available to play against? Meaning, getting a team right away vs standing around going DURRR in the GH while it waits for a team for you to fight? |
and it's actually quite valid. The matchmaking system is as good as broken. When a guild achieves alot of rating and a guild of similiar rating is not available to fight, the system takes far too long to pair down to the nearest opponent. What's worse, is once you get outside of 100-200 rating (not sure) from your own, it will randomly take ANY team, which makes it even more difficult to find a matchup with a "decent" team. IIRC, the matchmaking hasn't been modified in over 2 years (could be wrong) when the game was much more active.
Updating the matchmaking system to make it easier for high rating guilds to find matches could fix a large majority of the tanking issues.
just call me jimmy
Here is my 2 cents Anet, please listen to it carefully!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo3ux...eature=related
Also Jatt, I hope you don;t mind this question.
Something I have have wondered. How many of say the top 200 guilds are the top 40 guilds and their smurfs?
Would a ladder reset not help to fix the lack of teams to play, as you would have active guilds playing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo3ux...eature=related
Also Jatt, I hope you don;t mind this question.
Something I have have wondered. How many of say the top 200 guilds are the top 40 guilds and their smurfs?
Would a ladder reset not help to fix the lack of teams to play, as you would have active guilds playing?