why is shiro bad?

wow i have not been on these forums since jan 2007, (i started playing like 2006 winter lol)
still been playing GW religiously 13 hours a day ^^

i been wondering lately, why is shiro considered a bady guy :S
i mean if u spent your life fighting innercity slum criminals protecting traders........ and serving a emprorer faithfuly, then one day a seer tells you he will kill you, and all her signs come true, what are you supposed to do?
frozen in jade and spending eternity with the convoys seems harsh..

I would say he's considered bad because he murdered the emperor, and his entourage as well, based on nothing more than the word of a supposed seer. Yes, the signs may have all been coming true, but if I told you that someone was going to kill you after they delivered your pizza this evening, I don't think that gives you grounds to murder the pizza deliver boy in self defense beforehand.

Plus later on he was enslaving people, corrupting their bodies, and using them as an army to take over the Empire. I'd consider the enslaving and corrupting part bad. Before that he might have had a case for redemption.

Was basically ganna say what Operative 14 said, that's all we kind of know about him. The rest is unknown. And LOL at the nutsack joke haha.

This belongs in the Druid's Overlook.

He was considered a murderer from his actions 200 years ago, and evil by Canthans since they are biased. But considered really evil afterwards.

Also, he was corrupted by Abaddon. As shown in Nightfall.

They made him an Envoy, so offing the emperor may not have been enough to make him the bad guy. Going around killing folks and corrupting souls as an Envoy, however would be enough to damn him in the villains club.

*edit Huh, I stand corrected. Should start paying more attention.

Actually, every Envoy was a criminal in mortal life. They're forced to serve Grenth and shepherd souls to the Mists because of how evil they were. Shiro just took it another level.

Actually, every Envoy was a criminal in mortal life. They're forced to serve Grenth and shepherd souls to the Mists because of how evil they were. Shiro just took it another level.

Wow, really? Grenth doesn't seem to have much common sense
That's kinda like leaving a fat kid in a candy store and trusting that he keeps away from the lollipops

Being an envoy is suppose to be their punishment. Since they are given a job, they cannot "rest" in their afterlife. What Shiro did was, supposedly, the first time an Envoy went against a god in his job.

And even though Shiro did have his fun, in the end he was killed and stripped of his powers as an Envoy.

Also, I don't think the Envoys are as they are "because of how evil they were" - as the most evil get sent to the Realm of Torment - but because they were criminals with "bad" deeds, but not totally evil like say, Khilbron.

Because when you raise an army of monsters that resemble Michael Jackson, you're bound to get screwed.

In other words:


Bitch be paranoid

To be honest, I consider Shiro a puppet of the Fortune teller. She had a plan and she used him to execute it.

I dont consider Shiro a bad person until he is actually driven mad. You do see his moral judgement about why he should murder the emperor and he considers it wrong but is driven mad by what the Fortune Teller told him, which I consider a curse.

Only after he murders the emperor does he really go mad and sets his entire plan into motion. Prior to meeting the Fortune Teller he seemed to be a good man, though I admit a little on the crooked side. You see him kick over a barrel to get some coins in a cut scene.

1. Shiro isn't bad. Just manipulated and turned insane.
2. Arenanet is bad at making characters

shiro is not a bad person, he just crossed the devil's path and cut a deal with him. the evil being abbadon btw, with the fortune teller being one of abbadon's servents(as seen in the nightfall campaign)

the whole army raising and soul corrupting was when he was completely abbadon's puppet, so you cant really judge him because of that...

did shiro ever figure out that he was trick, cuz if i were him i would be pissed.

Well, they had to do something considerably bad or significant to deserve such a punishment, otherwise we'd have Envoy hordes. We meet people that don't seem too bad in the Realm of Torment. Even people that were sent there (allegedly) because they were tainted by Abaddon's minions.

Since we're on the subject of those who have done bad deeds and not so bad deeds in life, I'd like to ask a question. If the Hall of Heroes is "the pinnacle of the afterlife" and the Realm of Torment is where those who have done bad deeds in the mortal realm "are sent to spend an eternity in torment" then is there any part of the Mists that you could say is similar to the idea of Purgatory?

*Cough cough Gate of Madness*

He, along with the Lich Lord, both get sent to the Realm of Torment. Shiro just got sent their after he was removed from his position as an Envoy.

Shiro was killed twice. First time, he was made an envoy and seemingly didn't even touch the Realm of Torment. Second time, he was sent to the Realm of Torment. Think a little please, as I was meaning that when he was killed the first time, he became an Envoy, but the second time he was killed, he was sent to the Realm of Torment. Before his first death, he was not "truly evil" and therefore not Realm of Torment material - so to speak.

However, after his envoy mishaps, he was considered "truly evil" and was sent to the Realm of Torment

He wasnt sent there when he first died though. The second time he died, he was sent to the Realm of Torment by the Envoys for a punishment (and to get rid of him) - he wasnt going there due to the deeds of his previous (first) life.

Though we dont know the actual details of where becoming an envoy and being sent to the RoT are on the punishment meter. Both could be on equal grounds and be simply decided by Grenth.

And Shiro indeed wasnt evil - he simply became too paranoid for his own good. However by the time we meet him in Nightfall he has become corrupted and is indeed evil (most likely due to his failings along with being in a realm of madness)

This is pretty much totally speculation based on second-hand info since I don't have the Prima guide, but my impression on the Envoys is that becoming an Envoy requires three characteristics:

1) Being powerful enough for the job. (Possibly a worthiness factor)

2) Having done something bad enough to warrant the punishment.

3) Being considered trustworthy/responsible enough for an important job despite #2. (This may tie in with it being a kind of purgatory - possibly Envoy status only goes to those who show remorse for their actions? Shiro may have before becoming further corrupted along the line.)

These critera probably limit the pool of possible Envoys to... something quite small.

Shiro, however, seemed to fulfill them at his first death. What he did do was pretty heinous, but it seems unlikely, even at the point of his death, that he actually wanted to cause the Jade Wind... and yet he did. On the whole with such things like defending caravans, he seems like a decent enough guy (although I wouldn't say 'good' - I suspect he was paid well for the job) and apart from one understandable lapse, generally seemed to go through with doing what he was supposed to. He was certainly powerful, and thus, prime Envoy potential.

The second time 'round, however, was very different. First, he abandoned what was likely offered as a chance of redemption, putting the universe "out of balance" in turn. At first, the Affliction may have been accidental, but pretty soon he was actively building an army out of his victims to unleash on the Canthan populace... and create more. He was responsible for the deaths of Grenth-only-knows-how-many Canthans in the pursuit of his own interests, and if that isn't evil, I don't know what is.

In short: Two hundred years ago, he was pretty much an unwitting dupe. When we fight him, though: Evil. Eeeeeeeeevil.

The prima lore is in the Archive, and that is taken from scanned images from GWO which is even linked to. So, while it is second-hand, it is the actual Prima lore.

And I would have to agree with your "three requirements" theory.