Asuran Summons: My ideas.

This is just an idea i've had for a while, i'm sure it would never happen, but it would be pretty cool.

I use the asuran summons a lot, on my Rt/N i use them often, and sometimes for vsf i like to bring [skill]Summon Ice Imp[/skill] as he does AoE and snares.

but anyway, my idea is, what if you could cap skills for them, like say 1-3, obviously they would have to be for the summon's primary profession, and i don't think elite's should be able to be capped, as that could possibly be very powerful. although that would be very cool. but i was thinking just regular skills/spells. I don't know how this could be implemented, the capping i mean, maybe it could be done automatically by the summon. I wish that you could control it, and choose the skills before you zone and start killing stuff. But like i said i don't know how this could be implemented, at least easily for the dev-team, and convenient for players to use. And if it was done automatically by the summon, then maybe if it had a skill used on it, that was in it's main attribute line, it would use it until you zoned until the next area, like for example if meteor shower was used on Ruby Djinn, then he would use it until you zone, or even until you return to an outpost. Or, even better, what if the summon, did the fatal damage to an enemy, it would "steal" it's skills. So, if the Ruby Djinn, was to give, lets say a fire imp, the fatal blow, it would steal Flare or Fire Storm or something, and be able to use until you zone/outpost whatever.

Or, what if the enemies that had "cap-able" skills were in difficult areas, like coldfires in uw, or a wizard in SoO, or just regular zones, but hard to get too, or even, just from bosses? would be fun, like an easter egg hunt.


My original idea was to be able to somehow cap the skills, then before you leave town, be able to chose 1-3 of them, for the Summon to use, on-top of it's pre-defined skill. I think this would be very awesome, and pretty fun.

all feedback is welcome, negative or positive.

Uh... they are quite strong already as they are. They eat up some damage, each party member can has cheezebu.... ahem... I mean, can have one...

I won't mind to be able to change the skill they have if it is just one and it's not elite, but adding more to them would be a bit to much, depending on which ones they can learn.

My idea...

Give us some way in-game to get this skills besides playing #$!#$! Polymock... Make em cost 10 zkeys, I don't care... I *hate* polymock...

Polymock is ridiculously easy. and in hard mode, these summons are a joke, 5 spiders put my ice imp to shame in less then 1 second, AND that's with 16 Spawning.

i think that once you reach r9 your summons should get an elite. i also think there should be a buff for hard mode.

now that is also a really good idea. i like it.

so... this thread is about buffing a skill to be a summonable hero?

no.

heroes you can change weapons/runes/ and use full builds, as well as getting your title buffs (norn/deld/asuran/etc), you can flag them etc, set to attack, defend, avoid. this you cant do w/ a summon.

and you might say, summoning stones, well those are also not customizable, and i like to use a stone+summon+vanguard sin at the same time on my Rt/N MM, and other chars.

this is about making the summons, use more than 1 skill, i would like to be able to add 1-3 to their bar.

was your Asuran title high? cuz that changes your imps level. Spawning wouldn't change alot.

My title is max, and spawning does change a lot, it gives it an incredible health boost.... in hardmode they don't last very long at all against any heavy damage dealing mobs.

First off, if every party member brings one, unless they're dying every 5 seconds or so you're going to run into party members with useless skill slots, since you can only have one out at a time. If all you want is a disposable damage sponge, minions work much better and they don't take a skill slot on every character.

Secondly, even if the thing lasts it's full duration, they're still pretty useless. They won't always target what you want them to target, and they're spamming relatively weak skills that you'd probably laugh at if a human ele brought them.

They are good as they are. They don't need an extra buff, cause then it would be overpowered. And for HM, if they suck, just dont bring them with you. Like for any profession, not all skills are as good as the other. Just the same as in the asuran skills. One gets more use then the other.

It would be more overpowered then it already is , I don't like it.

Stop relying on PvE skills and learn how to play your character. Summoning Stones and Asuran Summons are perfectly fine as they are. I actually like the skills selected for them, as they have a nice effect (snare, weakness, burning) and have good recharge. They do not need to be boosted in anyway.

That may be for you. I have never seen any of my summons killed by enemies neither in normal or hard mode unless my party is retreating, in which case they are used as decoys. Otherwise they always last until the spell expires.

Each one has a single effect.
The Djinn burns.
The Mursaat weakens.
The Naga knocks down when weakened.
And the Ice imp snares.
They deal some damage, but that's just an extra. If you don't want a periodic application of those effects without expending your own time applying them, you don't bring them.

- If I want to snare enemies while I cast Heat skills, I bring the Ice Imp. It never fails snaring what I want him to snare, the way I want him to snare.
- If I want someone spamming Immolation to keep a target under burning while I cast other things that benefit from it, my fire Djinn always do so really well. Always go for the first thing I attack and never changes targets randomly.
- I effectively created a build along the naga that can beat all Tournament contestants. The enemies can't touch me because they are being knocked down all the time.
- And the Mursaat is REALLY helpful against Destroyers. While I cast other things, he maintains weakened any physical attacker that approaches me, the destroyers never see it as a priority target and never go kill it first.

When I use an elementalist, I usually bring them to replace the skill they carry in the bar, since they are casting it all they can, It's like casting two spells at the same time. All you need to do is check them to see when they are casting it.

So... maybe you just don't know how to stand strategically in the correct place, call targets at the right time and see when they are casting to cast yourself at the correct time. They may don't work for you, but I assure you they work.

Being them elemetalists too, they are only 'easy to use' as partners to others Elementalists.
If you are bringing one of them while bringing a melee-range build, you are as smart as someone that brings Asuran Scan while being a spell range caster. They may follow you and get too close to the front lines. If you can't use them effectively without being an Elementalist, don't bring them at all, they are not for you.

Yes, let's increase the necessity for grind even further.

Although I have never found the summons to be useful, they just seemed wasteful when my guildies brought them (I cannot be bothered with the Polymock). Whatever they accomplish can be achieved through other (and usually more efficient) means. Plus, they take up a PvE slot.
The only potentially useful one I see is the Ice Imp, just for the snare it provides.

the summons having multiple skills would seem a little overpowered, lol. but if u could cap certain skills to swap with one another, while still maintaining a single skill on the summon, that would be interesting =) no elites though ;-)

[Signet of Illusions] FTW also no one is forcing you to use thous skills. and your not even willing to do the quests in the first place so don't complain about something that dosnt even effect you.

I know how to play, and very well. I think it would be fun, looking to cap skills, as there is very little content in the game i haven't played. 1 more skill on their bar, wouldn't make them so overpowered that it would shake the entire game off it's foundation. And the only one that's worth anything is ice imp, other than that, they're trash.

also, using a pve slot, just to have a summon spam a mediocre under-powered skill, is near pointless, the idea is, use a pve slot, to have a summon spam 2 skills, so that you basically are bringing 9 skills makes more sense, to me at least. And i think, hunting down the right enemies to cap skills from, would be fun!

You've missed my point.

Hypothetical situation:
Let's say somebody finds a really, really good team build involving these skills. Let's say that these skills had to be cast at r9 to get the suggested elite (which is why the team build is viable). The only people who could join in with this team are people with an Asuran rank of 9 (or could sqeeze SoI in their bar, which may not be possible), which is extremely unfair.

It was bad enough when people demanded a minimum rank for Ursan, but that wasn't an actual requirement set by the game for it to be useful. It just gave you a stronger advantage. With this suggestion, a fixed cutoff point has been set.

Summon Ice Imp is a very strong skill when added to an entire party. Eight snaring elementalists for the price of the equal number of PvE slots is very good.

so you're mad because you were left out of ursan runs? uwsc? ha? or the like? stop being lazy and grind your titles if you wanna play with the big boys. seriously though, it takes only a couple of hours to fill a book and turn it in for points, you can seriously max a title in half a day maybe quicker then that depending on how dedicated you are. those requirements are set by players, to make whatever run/farm they're doing to be quick, easy, and painless so that someone w/ low ranks and low experience doesnt waste the entire groups time. but regardless, i don't see how peoples lazyness even applies to this thread, it's about the asuran summons, not about being left out of mythical builds involving said skills, because you're too lazy to max a title.

This isn't a personal thing. I was saying why a person's suggestion was a poor one.
Regardless on how easy it is to grind a title, it is exactly that, grind. And making it necessary to grind to achieve a power a skill wouldn't otherwise have is flawed. It's bad enough these skills are linked to the title tracks.

If you have an argument against this, then put it forward. Don't just say I'm lazy though, because that's not really an argument as to why my position is a poor one.

So you're calling someone else lazy, when you're idea will only make it easier to roll the game?

Right.

Keep the personal attacks out of this, and all, threads. First and last warning to all of you.

first of all, a summon having 1 extra skill, non-elite especially, would not roll the game, and regardless, people work hard to get their titles up so that they can enjoy the benefits, of working hard. it's called playing the game.

second, i wasn't personally attacking, he expressed that it's extremely unfair to be left out of farming pugs for not having the requirements that they demand, as do many other's feel the same way, well, the only way to fix that problem, is to get those requirements, and that would require you to take some time and play the game instead of crying about it, it's a simple solution. sorry if you took offense, but seriously come on all i said was _lazy_.

i mean, complaining or feeling left out, because you cant do, or dont have what others have or are doing, is just silly. they're not special, balthazar didnt come down and give them special gifts or grant them any extra ability that you don't have, all they did was play the game and get their title up to be able to join in on pugs so they can have fun too.

with that said i'm finished my rant, if it lands me a forum ban than oh well, i'm just sick of people crying about stuff they can accomplish for themselves very easily. and i'm not targeting anyone in this thread or forum, i'm speaking in general.

patience is a virtue, and hard work pays off.

:no one is forcing you to run that said build and if you have such a problem with thous skills and the builds that use them, for a certain area then come up with your own build and run it. also how the pve skills are set up right now for the most part you can still use them regardless of what rank you are.

This.
Oh so much.

My ritualist is the only guy that finished GWEN - and he doesn't have any of the Summons. I'd rather not have these skills then do something that I find so stupid.

Prophecies was advertised on the framework of not requiring grind to be competitive. Not our fault cheap-WoW-wannabes (and ANet listening to them) corrupted that.

Going back on topic, the summon skills are effective enough. For a PvE slot (which may or may not be a significant cost depending on your build) and 10 energy per 60 seconds you get an ally of up to level 20 with a ranged attack and an elementalist skill that doesn't cost you energy past the initial casting (two of which would cost the same as the summon if you cast it yourself, two of which cost more - and in neither case do you have to assign attributes or spend time casting yourself). Compare that to a beastmaster, who realistically needs at least two skills (or at least one per beastmaster and one other with the area pet res skill) just to get the ally, has to assign points in an attribute, and has to pay seperately for skills, and that asura summon is looking pretty darn good.

Or compare it to that other way you can gain allies for a party - a party of 8 each with an Asura summon would at least in theory make a good substitute for a dedicated minion master - one that specialises in fiends, anyway - for a party that isn't built around exploiting physical damage. And it doesn't require corpses, allowing you to dip into that little-explored well of Other Corpse Exploitation Skills or just not be overly bothered by a lack of corpse supply.

If anything, like other PvE skills, the asura summons are borderline overpowered. They're a bit lacking in flexibility in themselves, but really, given a choice between handing Enervating Charge duty over to a facsimili Mursaat or bringing it myself, I'd dial up the fake Unseen without hesitation.

Obviously you do not have upwards of 400 ms ping times. Polymock would be easier if one could see the big spell cast to interrupt it in time without trying to predict it.

well, as does lots of things in life, the game has changed a lot since proph was released, and it's not really a grind spending 2.5 hours tops to fill a NM quest book and turn it in for 20k rep points. grinding in my mind is spending a week or more than 24 hours of play time to complete an objective.


get a better connection? don't know what to tell you here, but honestly even with a high ping, it's still extremely easy, highlight the enemy and when you see him cast, interrupt/block. basically, if you read the wiki, all you have to do is block his first cast (wait 2 seconds after match start), and if you use the correct pieces, it's over, and a piece of cake.

In my experience, getting the storyline once and finishing all the quests for an allegiance gets you around enough points for rank 4. Let's call it 20000. You'll have played through once and turned in a book. Let's say you turned in that first book in the most important allegiance title to you. That's 40000.

After that, we start grinding. It takes 2.5 hours to finish a book, you say? To get to rank 8 requires two books at Normal Mode, so that's five hours of grind. You then need a book at Hard Mode, which if we assume takes the same time (it probably won't) is 7.5 hours.

Then repeat for the other allegiances. You don't get the benefit of the first book for those, so that's on the order of 10 hours of grinding for each. Multiply by three and add to the 7.5 hours for the first, and you're looking at over a day and a half, straight, for one character. And we're assuming that the player isn't pushing forward to the tenth rank, which will require an extra two Hard Mode books each... so add another 20 hours.

And that's per character. The EOTN reputation titles are character- rather than account-based, so that 37.5-57.5 hours gets multiplied by however many characters you have. All doing the same missions over and over again - and while they do have different flavours depending on which character you play, there is a limit to this effect, especially with the Norn missions in general and Blood Washes Blood (which forces you to go bear) in particular. Say someone's shelled out for the extra slots and has a character of each primary professions - that's up to 575 hours, or, probably more reasonably, closer to 600 hours to max out their EOTN titles. Even taking into account that a player may want the credit for completing the missions in Hard Mode as well, that's over three weeks straight. I think that easily fulfills your definition of grind.

(I am aware that things like completing dungeons can reduce this figure, but I'm confident that won't stop it from being at least a straight week of repetitive activity.)

And while games change, well, you may not have noticed, but there were people who liked having a game with no grind that was tied to mechanical benefit. There are plenty of games on the market that cater to people who like to grind for mechanical benefit. Can't we even have the one that was initially aimed to us instead of Just Another WoW Clone? It wasn't as if the game wasn't successful before titles were introduced, let alone before they started granting mechanical benefits.

With all that put aside, though, I notice you haven't responded to the statement that the summons are powerful enough as they are. They don't need to be buffed.

(Oh, and as for the Polymock snipe: I was lucky. I got in with the Laceration exploit and have been donating my pieces down the line so my other characters are going through with an iboga and a couple of elementals instead of the weak starting pieces. However, in some parts of the world, 'get a better connection' is much, much easier said than done - and the fastest connection in the world doesn't help with physical distance from the server.)

actually i did a couple times, and that was the whole point of this thread to begin with, I don't believe they're powerful at all, if i go solo, say on my rit, with heals and spirits to buff the ice imp, he might be lucky to last against a mob of elder crocs, but bring him up to 4-5 spiders, he's toast in 3 seconds, granted yes i'm solo with no other party members, but this is just an example. they do have their uses, but i don't believe in anyway that they are over-powered, and the whole point is not to buff them, but to be able to add 1 skill, or at least swap out the 1 they do use, for something that you can hunt/quest/cap for the benefit of being fun new content. If you can show me an example of you dominating some viable farm, with these summons, that wouldn't be accomplished otherwise, or at least a lot harder without them, then maybe i'll change my opinion of them not being over powered, because i still believe right now they're trash, yes they're useful and have there uses, but they're not over powered. and adding 1 non-elite skill chosen by anet for us to cap for their bar, i absolutely believe would not be over-powering or dominate and change the game in anyway, for example, naga causes knock-down if enemies are weakened, well why not let us have to go into an elite area/dungeon/etc to be able to cap him a skill that causes weakness.

oh and, i didn't make this game, or change any of it, i personally enjoy a lot of the changes, and don't mind grinding to play a game i love, and if i did have a problem with the changes, i wouldn't play.