No More Freedom of Speech on Guru??

eagleblade

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2007

D/

No More Freedom of Speech on Guru. its turned into a dictatorship time for me to find a better site out there


http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10366937

Inde

Site Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2004

I shouldn't even allow this, but I had to because it's priceless. First off, Sun Fired Blank respectfully asked for people to contribute meaningful conversation and this... offends you somehow? Sorry to use so much sarcasm but nothing that this mod posted in any way violates any forum rule since he was trying to save a thread from deteriorating into meaningless one-liners and supposedly witty and clever "fail" remarks.

I also hate to break it to you, but "freedom of speech" never applied here in the first place. Welcome to the internet, where most forums are privately run and owned. Not even by an American as well.

Faer

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

Funny. We've been running the Bugs forum in much the same way since it was created, and I haven't seen a complaint about that being dictatorial. Besides, we've never claimed to have any sort of freedom of speech here, as Inde pointed out.

Perhaps you'd prefer Commuwikinism?

Ariena Najea

Ariena Najea

Silence and Motion

Join Date: Jul 2006

Buffalo NY

New Horizon [NH]

You never had freedom of speech here. Did you know your moderators and admins can edit your posts without you ever knowing about it?

But seriously, Guru is by no means a "dictatorship" and actually has fewer rules that most forums out there. A lot of things slide here that don't elsewhere, because content is only closed/removed when it severely breaks the guidelines of the forum. Just think if we never deleted a post or locked a thread. Imagine the pain of trying to find anything.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

Quote:
Don't repeat complaints. In particular, everyone has a very strong opinion on the cost of extra storage panes, but you're not being constructive if the only thing you can say is that you think the price sucks and they're only trying to get money out of you. I frankly don't care if you think the price sucks or not, or if you think they're only trying to get money out of you. I do care about why you think these things. Repetitive complaints aren't helpful.
Stay on topic/no flaming

Quote:
Generalize this example for anything you have to say on the rest of the update's content. On the same token, they delayed the April balance update. That's done and over, so don't bring it up. And generic "ArenaNet / NCSoft sucks" posts are deleted on sight.
Contribute on-topic,don't flame

Quote: Don't post one-liners. I understand people are very hateful or excited for the update, but please don't use the thread to just increase your # of posts. 123456chars +1's are annnoying

Quote: Not to mention users who take every opportunity to bash moderators like it was some god given right to bad mouth people.

Quote:
Stay on-topic. GuildWars.com: 4 Year Anniversary Celebration. If your post doesn't have anything to do with this, then it should go elsewhere. Simple,easy to understand forum rules actually posted in an active thread as a reminder is not removing "freedom of speech" which absolutely nobody has ever been priviledged with here anyway.

I don't see cause for upset

Earth

Earth

Always Outnumbered

Join Date: Jul 2006

Oh no! Imagine actually having to contribute to a thread! What will we do?!

Unlucky Slayer

Unlucky Slayer

RAGE INCARNATE

Join Date: Apr 2006

Sitting at The Guild Hall 2, being happy.

Nerd Clan [NK]

R/

Wait!? We have freedom of speech here?! WHY DIDNT ANYONE TELL ME THIS BEFORE!!!!

Oh right... Welcome to the internet.

Yang Whirlwind

Yang Whirlwind

~ Retired ~

Join Date: Nov 2005

Copenhagen, Denmark (GMT +1)

E/

If it comes as a surprise that we have rules and guidelines to keep things fair, polite and meaningful, I'm really surprised.
You signed a form agreeing to familiarize yourself and abide by with our rules and guidelines when you created your account,- that should have been a hint. Those rules have not changed significantly since you joined.

Rant on Freedom of speech - a much abused concept:

Freedom of speech was never intended to allow individuals to say what they wanted about whom they wanted without consequences. Neither is this how the laws on the subject work in any country in the world that I have heard of.
Quote:
In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, such as on "hate speech".

The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights recognizes the right to freedom of speech as "the right to hold opinions without interference. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression". So, basically this allows you to have opinions and express them,- which you also have in this forum. As long as they are expressed meaningfully and without targeting (quote: hate speech) a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, ideology, social class, occupation, appearance (height, weight, hair color, etc.), mental capacity, and any other distinction that might be considered by some as a liability (end quote).

As you can clearly see,- there are exceptions to this law as well. So, even if it applied here, which it doesn't, there would still be limitations. In fact, those limitations are not too dissimilar from our rules,- imagine that!
One of the most basic concepts in any kind of social group are rules (written and/or unwritten) which governs our interactions.
Society, school, work, marriage, friendship, etc. - they all have rules you are expected to follow.
So, here is my question: why would you assume a forum such as this would be ungoverned by rules when the rest of the world is not?

Operative 14

Operative 14

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Arizona, USA

[OOP] Order of the Phoenix I

Not to mention that the law protecting Freedom of Speech you're probably citing (the First Amendment) only states that that U.S. Congress cannot makes laws prohibiting freedom of speech. Even in America, this does not apply to private institutions like an internet forum, only to the U.S. Congress.

Basically, private groups, like GWGuru and even Guild Wars (if you'll look in the EULA you signed before playing the game, they have several entries abridging your freedom of speech) have nothing saying that you have the right to free speech.

Plus it's pretty obvious the moderator was just telling people to stay on topic. >_>

Yarly

Yarly

Retired GW Player

Join Date: Jun 2006

UK

Mo/

Almost everybody in the guildwars community knows that this forum is full of pretentious idiots who like to call themselves "Moderators". Its not going to change. There really isn't much point whining about it.

Snograt

Snograt

rattus rattus

Join Date: Jan 2006

London, UK GMT??0 ??1hr DST

[GURU]GW [wiki]GW2

R/

Pretentious? Moi?

Yang Whirlwind

Yang Whirlwind

~ Retired ~

Join Date: Nov 2005

Copenhagen, Denmark (GMT +1)

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarly View Post
Almost everybody in the guildwars community knows that this forum is full of pretentious idiots who like to call themselves "Moderators". Its not going to change. There really isn't much point whining about it.
1: characterized by pretension: as a: making usually unjustified or excessive claims
b: expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature
2: making demands on one's skill, ability, or means Nothing pretentious about saying that we set the rules,- bacause we do.
Nothing pretentious about taking abuse from users who fail to understand the rules.

Legendary Green

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2007

Swords of the Immortals

R/W

When I joined this forum it was my idea that I would find useful information from others and be able to share the same. The Anet GM's encourage the use of these forums to "help make the game a fun and safe place to play" as well as keeping the dev team aware of players concerns and ideas. It's understandable a certain amount of moderation is needed, but I have found this moderation excessive and pointless in many cases. I expect this post will most likely fall under moderation, but I'll say it anyway...as long as members are posting legitimate concerns or questions, and are doing it with respect and within reason, we should be allowed this privilege to express ourselves.

Inde

Site Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2004

You are Legendary Green. You always have been. What you are speaking of is the "rumors" and "friend of a friend" stories that get passed around about posts being deleted for arguing with moderators, or threads being deleted for no reason at all, people banned for doing nothing, or people who can't seem to understand how long 24 hours are, or the random people who believe that any one-liner or LOLCat picture is indeed a contribution to the thread because they posted it. If you do indeed see questionable moderation then I always encourage members to please PM me with a link to the thread so that I can review and so that we can work together on resolving any concerns they have. I have worked with many people, things have been undeleted, bans lifted and more. Few people who complain every take me up on this offer though. As I said, it's nearly always rumors and friend of a friend stories with absolutely no information to back it up as it's exaggerated.

By the way, the famous lines about the-mods-will-delete-this-but-i'll-post-it-anyway-as-proof-of-how-bad-they-are... it's not real original. Because they usually never get deleted. I am always open and willing to talk with any forum member about their concerns, questions and complaints about moderation and moderators. Many can attest that I do indeed address these and work with forum members to resolve, explain or change the rules if necessary to see that things are fair and handled fairly. If anyone sees a concern please PM me. I can also produce a dozen people off the top of my head who claim we don't moderate enough Legendary Green. You just can't win!

And Yarly, you're just too funny and harmless.

Yarly

Yarly

Retired GW Player

Join Date: Jun 2006

UK

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inde View Post
And Yarly, you're just too funny and harmless. I do my best Inde.

Yang Whirlwind

Yang Whirlwind

~ Retired ~

Join Date: Nov 2005

Copenhagen, Denmark (GMT +1)

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendary Green View Post
When I joined this forum it was my idea that I would find useful information from others and be able to share the same. The Anet GM's encourage the use of these forums to "help make the game a fun and safe place to play" as well as keeping the dev team aware of players concerns and ideas.
This is exactly the purpose of this forum,- that have not changed and never will!

Please remember that our moderators are regular players like you who enjoy the game and like to discuss it.
They have volunteered to help moderate the boards in their spare time to help keep the standard of these discussions high.
They are not here to boost their personal egos or abuse their responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendary Green View Post
It's understandable a certain amount of moderation is needed, but I have found this moderation excessive and pointless in many cases. I expect this post will most likely fall under moderation, but I'll say it anyway...as long as members are posting legitimate concerns or questions, and are doing it with respect and within reason, we should be allowed this privilege to express ourselves. Got any examples? This is very easy to say, but we cannot explain our actions if all you post are vague accusations.
I suspect you have been listening to other users bad mouthing our moderators because of deleted posts or threads.
These remarks are their point of view and as always you should beware forming opinions or passing judgment before you have heard both sides of a story.

Verene

Verene

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jan 2009

[SOTA]

D/

Seriously? Someone thinks that GWG is over-moderated?

With the exception of the strict rules in the sell forums (which are entirely understandable), this is one of the most hands-off forums I've been a member of, in terms of how it's modded.

Snograt

Snograt

rattus rattus

Join Date: Jan 2006

London, UK GMT??0 ??1hr DST

[GURU]GW [wiki]GW2

R/

Yes - there's no way on earth we can really keep high standards of discussion.
I should probably have said: "try to help keep the standard of these discussions high."

Fail troll is fail,- please try again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inde View Post
I promise mods, I will let you out to play for approximately 12 minutes May 25th at exactly 9:00 AM. Jumps up and down in breathless anticipation!
No its not a joke. We all give up our free time to keep this place in order, Inde doesn't pay us for our time.

Take the Event guides I make for example, in between GW, being a Dad and work, I barely find the time to update them. But I always find a way and the time nevertheless. Why? Because I enjoy it, been part of this community for sometime now, that's not going to change anytime soon. Even if my GW play time has dropped somewhat.

Screenshot Expo (Which I mod) could be defined as over-modded, but it has to be, but this forum lets plenty of stuff slide. You should check out some other gaming ones out there where people are really made to shut up.

Quote: Originally Posted by JupiterStarWarrior View Post
Though, on a more serious note, Inde, do you get paid to do this, or are you a volunteer as well? o_o; Inde owns the site and thus the forum, but far as I'm aware she doesn't profit from it. The bandwidth doesn't come cheap

You should know better. =P Use the edit button next time.

Kattar

Kattar

EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING

Join Date: Mar 2007

SMS (lolgw2placeholder)

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTS
but far as I'm aware she doesn't profit from it. Afaik, she doesn't even break even.

Inde

Site Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2004

I don't own this site I'm merely a lowly admin (THAT'S RIGHT LOWLY ADMIN NOT MOST-AWESOME-SUPREME-POWER-OVER-THE-LITTLE-PEOPLE ADMIN). Kzap is the owner of this site, he just lets me hang around. I'm told that sometime maybe 4 months ago for a few weeks we made a bit of profit off this site. WAHOO! Rolling in that $3.29 right now.

You're all jealous.

Yang Whirlwind

Yang Whirlwind

~ Retired ~

Join Date: Nov 2005

Copenhagen, Denmark (GMT +1)

E/

Kzap's the big cheese? - GET HIM!

Earth

Earth

Always Outnumbered

Join Date: Jul 2006

Wasn't THX one of the original founders as well or am I just mistaken?

DarkFlame

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2005

Ascalon

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth
View Post
Wasn't THX one of the original founders as well or am I just mistaken? THX and Spooky, I believe. Wonder if anybody else remembers them.

Helix Dreadlock

Helix Dreadlock

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2009

Imperial Sanctum

Legendary Drunken Masters [DUI]

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind
View Post
Not to mention users who take every opportunity to bash moderators like it was some god given right to bad mouth people.


Nothing pretentious about saying that we set the rules,- bacause we do.
Nothing pretentious about taking abuse from users who fail to understand the rules. Woo-hoo! Nice one yang No offense or anything, but isn't this thread a little off-topic itself?

Commander Ryker

Site Contributor

Join Date: Jun 2005

R/

Freedom of speech? This isn't America, this is the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verene
View Post
Seriously? Someone thinks that GWG is over-moderated?

With the exception of the strict rules in the sell forums (which are entirely understandable), this is one of the most hands-off forums I've been a member of, in terms of how it's modded. It's nice to know that someone appreciates us. Thank you.

Wish Swiftdeath

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2007

Mo/W

Yeah I've got to admit this is forum has some of the best mods i know. Frankly i'm surprised i'm allowed to say some of the stuff i do. The only one that i know of which is more relaxed is rtscommunity and that's because I know half the mods irl.