Is it possible to sue Anet

First off, I'm not some 12 year old pissed off kid that threatens EVERYONE TO SEW THEIR ASS OF IF THEY DONT GET WHAT THEY WANT TAKAKAKAKA.

I KNOW It's Anet's game, and they can do whatever they want, bla bla bla.

But now on a serious note, I know that by "installing" GW, and thus agreeing with the EULA, you're pretty much signing a contract.
It depends on the country you are in, but here in Belgium, we have certain "buyer's protection", which is a "law" with certain clauses that protects buyers again certain abuse by the sale's company, even tough stated differently in the contract.

Coming to mind here is the infamous: "How long do I have guaranteed on XX item" discussion. (This is not related to GW, but I'm just giving an example to sketch what I'm talking about)
So, in Belgium, even IF the contract states you only have 6 months guaranteed, the Belgium law forces the company to give XX (I think it's 2) years of guarantee on items.

So you get the idea, just because the EULA says something, doesn't mean it's necessary law and order.


Now on the main topic:

Can one sue Anet for "banning" you, and thus ending your agreement, even tough you handled according to their rules? (I know, sueing over an acount is dumb, but it's the idea that counts)

So if they ban you for a reason which is not stated in the EULA, and thus can't be concidered "against the rules", is it legal? And if their EULA states they can ban everyone, whenever they want, with or without reason, is that a legal clause?

Thanks

You can sue them , I am pretty sure you can sue any company/person if you have a grievance , whether or not it is advisable to do so is another matter

Well, that's kinda my question.

Is it achievable as a regular person to "win" a legal fight, IF Anet breaks their own EULA, by banning you without a grounded reason?

You're more than welcome to try. Three Texans suing Microsoft comes to mind. Of course they've sought legal representation in their EULA and I'm almost certain you'll lose. At least you'll be famous for a day for trying.

I believe it states some where in EULA that your account can be terminated for any reason at anytime. And by agreeing to the EULA you basically signed that you will lose any case in a court of law.

You can sue them,you can sue your cat for eating your peanut butter..but i dont think you would have much luck at winning..if they banned you they had a reason.

I guess it depends on how clear the offence is, and if the offended person is offended on a personal level to such a degree that s\he cannot fucntion like normal in the society x)

No really, i don't know.

What would you be suing for? Financial loss due to being banned unjustly?

One thing is for sure...you would most certainly have to endure financial loss attempting to sue them.

However if you have unlimited resources and feel you have been wronged then I don't see why you couldn't take them to court

I would guess it really depends on what civil rights you have in your country, Belgium I believe you said? I'm not a lawyer, however, in the US we are enabled with rights to bring lawsuits if there was some form of harm to ourselves, family members or property. I would imagine that you would also have to prove something similar, or that the company perpetrated some form of fraud or other malicious act, taking into consideration what they are legally obligated to do. If you can prove some of these, and you have the time and money, go for it. Otherwise, you have a frivolous suit and are just wasting precious time and need to move on.

Well, the claim would obviously be the money/times wasted on the game...

Don't think I'm planning on taking legal actions, I'm merely wondering IF it achieveable. The day I'm going to waste money on sueing Anet is the the day they can put me in my grave.

It's more a "IF" situation...

if you are someone more powerful than ncsoft and arenanet combined, then you'll win your case. if not, then don't even think about it. they can just drag the case on until you go bankrupt from court expenses.

Ok, but is this a legal clause? Is it legal for a company to put a clause in a contract of there that states you CAN'T sue them, even if THEY themselves break that very EULA?

If "you can't sue me" was a valid exclusion clause, we'd see it everywhere.

The same applies from the product/service. Telecommunications companies, for example, can't simply switch off your services out of the blue without being able to justify doing so or reimbursing the customer.

I'm no so sure about that. Even if you are talking about "at-will," there still needs to be justifiable reasoning behind banning an account. These contracts have to have not only seller protection but buyer protection, otherwise it would be a complete waste of time and money for Anet/Ncsoft to invest in a EULA. Its NOT as simple as saying...they can ban your account anytime for any reason.

Killed u man --> Your question is really irrelevant at this time due to the lack of information you provided. The real issues are
#1 Did you infact do something that is against the EULA.
#2 Contact Anet to find out why exactly you were banned.
#3 You have to be able to defend yourself if you did something unknowingly against the EULA. Even at this, if you did something...you still did something... then a ban can be deemed "warranted." Thus you tend to be at the mercy of the discretionaries of ANET.

There are chances that this could have been a mistake. If in fact you didnt do anything then theres a good chance that ANET can solve this before you would even think about sueing them.

When it comes to playing games over the internet or doing "certain" things over the internet, I believe you are not protected by your own country's "civil" laws when dealing with companies of another country. (i could be wrong) Basically Anet must adhere to State/federal civil law (per say of the United States)...It would legal nightmare to write up eula's based off of each country presumed to have potential or existing buyers.

By all means if anyone has anything different in their head..please add if you feel im wrong.

Again I am no expert but if they put it in and you agree to it then that makes it a binding contract , one rule to rule them all.......read the small print!!!

I read most of your post and a couple of posts that said yes so I am here to tell yoy something. Yes you can sue anet but anet's name will not be on the suit. NCsoft will be since Anet is owned by NCsoft you are goign to sue the top dog. Just like PG(procter and gamble if you didn't know) owns Iams and Eukanuba if that dog food killed rover then You sue PG not Iams...Get it..Got it...Good. However, you won't win. Simply because big company with 2 dozen lawyers>you. Not to mention that like you said the eula is a contract and you sign it. Do you really think anet didn't*ncsoft rather* didn't check into laws like this belguim's buyer's law or whatever. Yes, they did.

Probably a normal person wouldn't have the wealth to outlaw the laywers a corporation like Anet can afford. Also most corporations have some kind of law-insurance. On top of that, the costs of suing is more then the gains, so you might not even get a lawsuit at all, unless you can convince a lawyer to take such a job (which enough money probably will =)).

this ^
They just send you 10k pages of paper go go go read it all. I dont think it is possible to sue them for anything tbh. Then they have to steal/sell bank info or something like that

Would be awsome to sue them for banning you through, go for it !

Well in response to your guarantee laws, and applicable to any warranty really, I'd have to say there are some cases where you can void your warranty or guarantee. For example, if someone bought a computer, and paid for extra warranty. Then got mad one day and shot their computer. The warranty is voided. So, if you broke the eula, and thus got banned, dude i think you're pretty much screwed. And I'm not sure, but don't you have to do something really bad to get perma-banned. And if you feel you don't deserve this, email support (i know it's crappy and slow) and see what happened, and what can be done. (side note: don't mention legal action, this will effectivly end any conversation you can have with ANYONE you deal with...you threaten to sue, they send you to their lawyers)

What they consider as an offence can be anything they want, a guild of mine that into law read the eula (one of the old ones) and noticed that since anet didnt define what an offence was, just the fact that you used textmod or that you farmed or that you stayed afk too long could get you banned.
By signing it you were agreeing to obey their rules with everything that concerns the game and one of their rules is ANET and can rape you ingame in any way they want.
Most mmos do that nowadays to prevent mother from suing them because their kids died playing wow while taking E to stay awake for 7 years in a row.

Assuming it is possible to sue, I doubt you could sue for more than the cost of the account. If you could put a value on the time "wasted" playing a game, my PS2 would owe me millions!

There is still buyer protection supported by the government. The fact remains there are ONLY so many groups or individuals that have an inherent "CANT BE SUED" clause. I believe the President of the United States cant be sued, and i remember of hearing of other government agencies that cant be sued. YOU AS A BUYER ARE always protected in some sort of way. Even if a company slips in "you cant sue me" kind of clause, there are certain civil laws that protect you.

You have to prove that you were wronged in the eyes of the laws in order to considering doing something like this.

Like I said earlier, you must first take this issue of being banned by ANET before you even consider legal action.

maybe you can rally all the banned people of guild wars or ncsoft games and go for what is called, a class action lawsuit?

Taking them to small claims court (or the equivalent in your country) is the way to go. I am currently preparing a case against them for the banning of my accounts for the "use of 3rd party program or bot programs" when I have not used them and the "evidence" they based their decision on is the length of time I played during a particular period (the farm was h/h farming amatz basin - basically entering, flagging the heros to one side and then waiting for 10-12 minutes until the timer ran out, rinse and repeat).
I am suing for the cost of the programs and for the time required to re obtain items lost of those accounts + costs.
The requirements are much easier on a "normal person" in small claims.

Well firstly in all the time you have played guild wars have you done anything whatsoever , no matter how small that infringes on the EULA? if so they have you by the balls on this part of the agreement:

14. TERMINATION
(a) NC Interactive reserves the right to suspend or terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or willfully infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game(s) as described in the Rules of Conduct.

Should NC Interactive decide to suspend or terminate this Agreement with a User under any circumstances, the User will lose access to your Account.

(b) You agree that if the Service or your Account is suspended, terminated or cancelled for any reason or length of time, you are not entitled to any reimbursement or refund of any fees or unused access time.

And as far as using the laws of Belgum to sue a-net they also have covered that ,i beleve this part of the agreement that you agreed to when you joined the game covers that kind of thing:

15. GENERAL PROVISIONS
This Agreement is governed by and shall be construed and enforced under the laws of The State of Texas, without applying any conflicts of law principles which would require application of the law of any other jurisdiction. NC Interactive and you each hereby irrevocably consent to the jurisdiction of the courts of the State of Texas for all purposes in connection with any action or proceeding which arises out of or relates to this Agreement and agree that any action or proceeding instituted under this Agreement shall be brought only in the state courts of Travis County, State of Texas. If any provision of this Agreement is held to be invalid or unenforceable, such provision shall be struck and the remaining provisions shall be enforced. The UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods is expressly disclaimed. You agree to comply fully with all relevant export laws and regulations of the United States ("Export Laws") to assure that neither the Software nor the Service is exported, directly or indirectly, in violation of Export Laws; or is intended to be used for any purposes prohibited by the Export Laws. Our failure to act with respect to a breach by you or others does not waive our right to act with respect to subsequent or similar breaches. Except as otherwise permitted herein, you may not assign or transfer this Agreement or your rights hereunder, and any attempt to the contrary is void. This Agreement sets forth the entire understanding and agreement between us and you with respect to the subject matter hereof. Notwithstanding anything else in this Agreement, no default, delay or failure to perform on the part of NC Interactive shall be considered a breach of this Agreement if such default, delay or failure to perform is shown to be due to causes beyond the reasonable control of NC Interactive. All notices given by you or required under this Agreement shall be faxed to (512) 498 - 4099. Attn.: Customer Support

In other words i beleve this means you agreed that any legal disputes would be settled using the laws of Texas.Large companys like this cover their asses legaly using extremely high paid lawyers and the contracts they use tend to be water tight .However if you wanna try sewing them go for it, it'll be something to LOL at .

I presume you are just being facetious. But this would not fall under a class action lawsuit. You couldnt just round up all the banned people and start suing. Class action lawsuits involve the same thing being done to a large group of people. Be it X number of people have been banned, those same X number of people had to have been banned for the same "illegal" reason.

Or in other words, if a company wrongfully pollutes a drink water reserve and 1000 people suffer the same damages then they have the right to file a class action lawsuit.

Your only chance would be if anything in the eula goes against European law, at which point you could report the company to whatever official body monitors such things.
In time the company would be forced to alter their rules to fit in with the statutes, then you could if you wished attempt to gain some form of redress for any harm or loss caused by their previous rules.

You are however correct in saying that just because a company states something in their documentation you are forced to accept it.

After buying the game you should have read that and decided not to accept their rules and immediately claim a refund for the cost of the game.
Once you sign up you enter willingly into an agreement fully knowing the rules.

this may have been stated above

this is a civil matter and even if you win the sue who is going to enforce Anet to pay you? why would they? what is your push? (no push, no cash)

IANAL.

To sue, you must have damages. The only thing you could consider damages in your case is the $50 equivalent you paid for the game and any character slot/additional costs. You most certainly do not suffer mental anguish, or any other hardships that you could sue for.

The question is: Are you willing to risk hundreds of dollars to get your $50 back assuming you win your case (You won't)?

[quote]Let us know how this goes. BTW: You can't sue for time because you didn't lose any money on the time. If you are in a car accident and you lose time at work, you can sue for that time because it has a value.

That, plus this:


Now the question arises, is it really worth spending hundreds (thousands) of dollars/euros/whatevers for 6 months worth of fees (which is maybe a namechange, makeover and a few character slots), or however little they can make it within the extent of the law?


I don't think so.

Ummm the court/courts that awarded him in the first place.....if he'd win.

As found in a previous post...there is no only chance with regards to "european law" or Belgiums civil law.

Edit. Weird to say. I truly enjoyed my Business Law class at Penn State...our professor was by far the most interesting professor i had. That stinker picked me out off 250+ students as the first person called on...on the first day of class.

Maybe Judge Judy will hear your case

On a serious note it is only $50.00 or so bucks in American. I am sure your local laws take into account a certain dollar amount before they are deemed court worthy. We have small claims court in the states which hears the smaller monetary amounts. Helps to keep the petty cases out of the mainstream system. You also have a jurisdiction / international deal going on which makes it harder and a lot more $ to process.

Now if it turns into a class action suit then it gets multiplied in value and well most defiantly be heard in court.

For those who wonder:

I didn't do anything against the rules, it actually was a VERY debated issue, but GAILE GRAY herself said it was NOT a bannable offence. Also, in the EULA itself, it doesn't say anything directly about this thing.

I can be more specific, but People will just go off-topic on THAT issue than, rather than the fact wether or not Anet can ban someone for doing something, they indirectly said (Gaile said it on a forum) it was not a bann-able offence.

I've already sent a support ticket yesterday. Still waiting...

Waste of your time to sue. Just like it was a waste of my time to read this topic. You did something 'wrong', and whether it is a bannable offense or not is a different question. Gaile has been wrong before, and I'm not sure she ever had the 'authority' to say what was and wasn't bannable.

Either tell us what you did, what you were banned for, or what Gaile said was not bannable, or ask a mod to close this topic. Try asking someone who knows about international law, as this isn't a case of Belgium or US law.

Forexample, one guy here got banned for Selling HA Fame services. As far as i know they dont say that this is against the EULA.


Also idk but if u do sue anet, im pretty sure they are gonna go throu EVERY CHAT LOGS you've had, and i just said anything offensive ("moron, your stupid, i hate you" etc) theire probably gonna perma ban you for that. Altough i have no idea^^

The problem that you have is that the EULA is vague in the way it is written and that is for a reason.

They can ban you for an offence by implication or actuality, just because each and every example of any potential offense is not mention it can be refered to as implied.

To be honest the EULA is ludicrous in that it gives 100% protection to a-net/ncsoft and zero protection to the consumer, there is absolutely no right of recourse under the EULA that exists for this game.

If they say you were botting, they will never provide any information and do not have to provide any information, merely the fact that they say you were means they can ban you and there i not 1 single thing you can do about it other than try and harass support to actually look into it, the chances of haing a ban lifted are extremely remote indeed and if they did lift it they will not admit any fault as they do not have to.

Kind of scary the fact that we have no rights or protection in what is essentially a contract by implicatin, if this was a business contract it would not be accepted in any european country as it is illegal to have a one-sided contract in Europe, but because it is virtual entertainment they can do as they wish.

They only thing you own is the product you have bought (discs and case) everything else belongs to ncsoft/anet and remains their property at all times, therefore anything they want to do with that property is perfectly legal.

I think you can, but you wont be very successfull. I believe that as soon as you download the game and agree to the EULA, then their rules apply to your actions in game whatever those rules might be and they apply them to however they see fit.

Hey i thought of suing Ncsoft when i got banned but meh. altho. when they change the EULA does the rules change for you? many times its changed and you had to reaccept it.
I think if its a minor offence like Taxi-ing or swearing a prem ban should be like a year tops. botting or duping should be perm.

Anet says things but means others. no 3rd party programms but allows textmod which can aid you to get title's ... and so on

First, EULA's typically aren't worth the virtual ink they're written on. They are simply a protective measure that a company takes in order to reduce the number of potential lawsuits. In the US the UCC typically protects consumers from legal mumbo-jumbo that the "common man" wouldn't be able to understand. This includes many, though not all, EULA's. A typical defense that works is "I couldn't understand it. I tried, but I just can't make sense out of it."

Small claims court would be the way to go. The probability of you winning is very small (unless the judge plays MMORPG's), and the potential gain on your part is also very small. Most likely you were banned for a reason that a considerable number of people on this board would agree with, and the ban would therefore pass the "reasonable man" test. Generally not worth the trouble.

Better to spend your time on a new account or switching to a different MMORPG. Or better yet, quit gaming and go out and enjoy life. I hear cycling is real popular in Belgium. Some guy named Merckx?

Once again this has already been addressed in above posts.....In the EULA....and civil action will be overseen by the STATE OF TEXAS.

The reason why companies do this is becuase all states civilly have different laws.....as well as other countries...other states of countries...other providences....down to even at the county level.

IT WOULD ABSOLUTELY BE IMPOSSIBLE TO WRITE UP AN EULA that would cover all counties of all states of all countries of the world. It would be a NIGHTMARE. There has to be a precedence in order to be fair for everyone. If there wasnt then people 10 miles down the road from you in a different town/county/state could possible sue for something you couldn't. I realize that happens in other situations as we speak, but local governments are set up for local civil cases. In a situation like this where the game essentially touches most of the corners of the world...they choose a one state's laws to abide by.


For those who think this thread should be closed....wow. Seriously this was one of the best more well responded overall threads I've seen on Guru. Its a legit thought/situation with some great information with little to almost no ranting.

Honestly if you want to say anything bad about this thread....to me the person who started this thread should have waited until he received info back from support and had his situation resolved. None the less...this is great discussion.

EDIT: i should have known---just when i make a case(no pun intended) about a good thread....someone chimes in with a post following completely unrelated....what lives under a bridge again?