The problem with crit defenses personally, is I notice it tends to fall of between targets if they aren't balled up. Instead of casting the 10e skill every time it falls off, with [Flashing Blades] you cast once and focus on dps.

Quote: Originally Posted by Killuminati21 View Post

This elite alone solves the biggest downside of assassin for me, dying. Guess you're beyond redemption

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

Since you were talking about Critical Defenses lowering damage output,... If you look at it like that, SY does the exact same thing. I'm not saying it's a bad skill, because it's great, but damage-wise, Critical Defenses and SY have the same use -- none at all. This is where it pays off to be altruistic. SY! takes care of a lot of hate (a LOT). That means that across the entire team, there are more slots to spend on offense/utility.

EDIT: zomg got ninja'd.

Shadow Slave

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

..My home away from home..

Currently looking ~

06 May 2009 at 21:43 - 46

'Cept that SY is imba and keeps your team alive, so they too can deal damage.

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

06 May 2009 at 21:56 - 47

I think monks would be much more happy for a squishy frontliner to bring an extra skill for defense than a tad more damage. Because if you're dead you do, you know, 0 DPS. And in the last 2 bars, just bring GPS instead of the crappy lead-offhand to get to the damage faster and bring an extra slot for Critical Eye/Strike. Unless you're in low-level PvE where things die too fast to get the skill recharge from MS, at which point it doesn't ****ing matter.

This really isn't that hard, people.

EDIT: like three people got in before me. "SY!" is great and all, but isn't that what an imbagon is for? And again, if you're a squishy frontliner and if everyone else has 160+AL, you're going to turn into a huge target for AI to beat the crap out of you, and look at that, you've only got a little bit of defense so you're going to be staring at the floor (dealing 0 DPS...) much of the time.

kthxbai

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

07 May 2009 at 00:00 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

Since you were talking about Critical Defenses lowering damage output,... If you look at it like that, SY does the exact same thing. I'm not saying it's a bad skill, because it's great, but damage-wise, Critical Defenses and SY have the same use -- none at all. Lowering damage output? Lol! Seriously?

Save Yourselves is unstrippable partywide damage reduction. Maintainable +100al on your whole party is strong! I'd happily sacrifice a little bit of damage to help contribute to keeping my team alive.

So, Save Yourselves? Or Critical Defenses? Hmm I know which I'll bring along...

[Critical Agility][Critical Defenses][Critical Eye][Golden Phoenix Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Save Yourselves][Optional]

How about bring both and keep your Monks even more happy if they don't know how to use Protective Spirit or Aegis?

Or you could just run two frontliners with Save Yourselves and problem solved.

Shadow Slave

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

..My home away from home..

Currently looking ~

07 May 2009 at 00:04 - 49

Bowstring Badass

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Character selection screen figuring what I want to play...

Purple Lingerie - :D

07 May 2009 at 00:45 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

Not everybody brings an Imbagon -

If you are the 'squishie' frontliner, the target of choice - the rest of your party buffed with SY and killing stuff ~ the monks job becomes quite simple, and you should not die... uknowY??

Clue: [Protective Spirit] + Healsnstuff!!1! (Oh...and the enemy is dead)

kthxbai2u Honestly one of the best posts in this thread. :|

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

07 May 2009 at 01:32 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

Asguard

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2008

Blood Iron Task Force

A/Me

07 May 2009 at 01:58 - 52

[Sever Artery][whirlwind attack][final thrust]["finish him!"][seeping wound][critical agility][way of the master][critical defense]

very funny bar to run with.. but thats just me.. maintainable 13+dps (at 12 critical) as well as some hard hitting crits.. spike with final blow and finish him simultaneously for deep wound, cracked armor, and 142+base attack*non crit

and whirlwind is optional. take w/e u want in it's stead

Shadow Slave

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

..My home away from home..

Currently looking ~

07 May 2009 at 03:32 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Clue: Use both SY and CD and let your monk do... Oh wait, he won't really have to do anything because everyone's taking next to 0 damage. Ohhhh....not content with wasting skill slots, you hope to waste party slots? lolz.

Think about what you wrote.

If everyone is taking next to 0dmg...your Mr/Mrs Monk might juuust have a lil energy spare to do their job of keeping you alive.

Meanwhile, you kill stuff.

Like Naruto does.

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

07 May 2009 at 03:37 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

How about bring both and keep your Monks even more happy if they don't know how to use Protective Spirit or Aegis? And so, we arrive at the core of the issue...

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

07 May 2009 at 06:48 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

'Cept that SY is imba and keeps your team alive, so they too can deal damage. Here we have winner!

Anyway, even without it, [Critical Agility] moves your AL to warrior levels. Its not like you are squishy anymore, and if we take prot spirit into account, you are not squishy at all. Since your monks really, really want to bring that skill for HM, you can spend your crit defences slot on anything. If it is SY!, you are getting bonus points.

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

07 May 2009 at 15:08 - 56

So you're saying that a bar like this:

[Critical Agility][Critical Defenses][Critical Eye][Golden Phoenix Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Save Yourselves][Asuran Scan]

Is actually sacrificing damage??? This actually will usually do more damage considering you skip the lead attack and go straight in to MS>DB spam, as compared to most Moebius builds. If they've got a ton of block stances in the area, maybe the lead-offhand is warranted, but even then you could always just bring a warrior hero with Wild Blow. Condsidering you probably only will need 1 monk since everyone's taking tiny bits of damage, that'll leave you with 7 slots to fill in plenty of damage. Seriously, if you're running [Save Yourselves] then you might as well just take [Critical Defenses].

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

07 May 2009 at 15:36 - 57

Sigh. I give up. Just like it'll always feel like a wasted slot to me, so there are people swearing by its merits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
This actually will usually do more damage considering you skip the lead attack and go straight in to MS>DB spam, as compared to most Moebius builds. If they've got a ton of block stances in the area, maybe the lead-offhand is warranted

Yezzz Unreal makes good barz ya?

Anyways, what you said is true in theory. In (my) reality stuff dies quickly enough for the 8s recharge on GPS to be annoying, tipping the balance in favour of GFS-Wild.

Also, unblockability is nice. GFS-Wild doesn't have to wait for a called Rigor to start wailing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

even then you could always just bring a warrior hero with Wild Blow ...nah.

Shadow Slave

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

..My home away from home..

Currently looking ~

07 May 2009 at 15:52 - 58

In a word : Yes

[Critical Defenses] Doesn't deal any damage last I checked.
[Golden Phoenix Strike] - Has obvious weaknesses -
[Wild Strike] > [Wild Blow].....Ask your Warrior Hero.

With [Critical Agility] you are landing your lead + offhand in literally seconds ~
Lower recharge, therefore you are able to switch targets quicker if you've yet to land MS ~
Its already unblockable - and removes a stance - and doesnt require [Wild Blow] (+10 points) ~

If you are only bringing one monk - I'd recommend killing things quickly...and playing Hard Mode.

EDIT: Dammit Bobby Uninja!

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

07 May 2009 at 15:54 - 59

GPS has no recharge when you use Moebius, eh? I'd say 90%+ of the time I can get the <50% clause to hit and recharge Moebius. The other 10% where you have to wait 1-2 autoattacks before it recharges is worth it for bar compression.

But yeah, I'll admit that if block stances are prominent then you might not be able to fit in CD (but heroes are meant to be your b*tches, so bring stuff on them if you can), but otherwise you don't really have an excuse in my eyes.

EDIT: Shadow got in before me. What I'm saying is you're sacrificing next to no damage for more self defense which is only going to make it easier on the monk. Wild Blow is nice, but there's not much point bringing it when there aren't a lot of block stances around.

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

07 May 2009 at 16:01 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda View Post

GPS has no recharge when you use Moebius, eh? I'd say 90%+ of the time I can get the <50% clause to hit and recharge Moebius.

Quote: Originally Posted by me, last post Anyways, what you said is true in theory. In (my) reality stuff dies quickly enough for the 8s recharge on GPS to be annoying, tipping the balance in favour of GFS-Wild. Translation:
GPS-DB.... shit, it's dead

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

But yeah, I'll admit that if block stances are prominent then you might not be able to fit in CD (but heroes are meant to be your b*tches, so bring stuff on them if you can), but otherwise you don't really have an excuse in my eyes. [aegis] and [protective spirit] are bitch skills pur sang, and they're not gonna have to apply the latter to any other party member anyway.

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

07 May 2009 at 16:10 - 61

If things are dying before you get to your elite, why are you bringing it? And when the hell did things die in <2 seconds in any kind of higher-end PvE? And yeah, Prot Spirit and Aegis are nice, but you don't even need those if no one's taking damage. Plus, PS and Aegis is used pretty badly by heroes, and microing sucks.

Look, we've gotten hella off-topic. Honestly, I think we can come to a conclusion: In areas without block stances, there is no need for lead-offhand to start MS>DB spam, which frees up a slot for extra defense (with little or no effect to DPS). In areas with block stances, then lead-offhand becomes more appealing and CD will be harder to fit in.

Can we please get back on the subject before this thread gets closed?

Shadow Slave

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

..My home away from home..

Currently looking ~

07 May 2009 at 16:19 - 62

/Sigh ~

Anyway, I thought we were talking about Obscure Elites....[Moebius Strike] Isn't one of them!

I'd like [Assault Enchantments] to be acting as an elite [Impale] personally.

Mainly because I hate [Impale], and Sins need moar Deep Wound in their lives!

(Though I do have a soft spot for [Golden Fang Strike]...especially before it was fixed :3)

[Twisting Fangs] sees too much use. EDIT: Too much ninja'ing going on in this thread lol....and no, I don't agree with that 'Conclusion'.

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

07 May 2009 at 16:56 - 63

Well, you can't please everybody, can you...

I've always wanted to work with [Siphon Strength], but it'd be pretty hard to find a good use for it considering it only hexes one foe.

Also, could we possibly expand this out to non-elites? Most 'Sin elites are either well-used or just shouldn't be used at all (poor SoS...).

[Vampiric Assault] looks like hella fun to play around with on MS>DB or something. And has anyone ever found a good use for [Mirrored Stance]?

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

07 May 2009 at 17:53 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

And has anyone ever found a good use for [Mirrored Stance]? It's not a good use, but I've used it before in RA as anti-ranger. It's hilarious when they activate Lightning Reflexes to try to get me with a Melandru's Shot and then I block it because of Lightning Reflexes.

One time in RA I ran [Disrupting Stab][Exhausting Assault][Assault Enchantments] and managed to get 3 TA wins before losing. I don't know who that says more about, my teammates or my opponents

Since we're asking questions of each other, anybody ever found a legitimate build revolving around [[Shadow Meld]?

Bill Clinton

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2009

08 May 2009 at 11:04 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

And has anyone ever found a good use for [Mirrored Stance]? Mirrored stance I play around with in PVE, if you know what you're going up against it can be a hell-a fun. Try, for instance on Shiro.

By far my favorite experience with it was on a Charr prison guard. Catch them using [Infernal Rage] and you'll see what I mean. I always wanted to make some kind of a farming build with it... but found it too difficult to work out a way.

EDIT: Looks like the site doesnt support monster skills. Infernal rage gives you +33% Increased attack speed, Makes all of your attacks massivley AoE and grants you +1000 health to boot. Best of all, it lasts for 45 seconds.

_Nihilist_

Will Bull's Strike for $!

Join Date: Apr 2006

Isle of the Dead

08 May 2009 at 11:46 - 66

Normally, Players cannot copy or use Monster-Only Skills. This is why you take Inspired Hex into Frostmaw's Burrows, it removes Wurm Bile, but since the Monster Skill can't be copied/used, it instantly recharges Inspired for spammable Bile removal.

Now, since it doesn't actually COPY the skill, like Inspired Hex would, so you as the Player cannot control/use the skill, it might just work. That would be one hell of an exploit/bug.

Still, Screen Shot for Proof, Please.

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

08 May 2009 at 13:29 - 67

Buns United

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

Holland, ZHZ

R/W

08 May 2009 at 14:34 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan View Post

Since we're asking questions of each other, anybody ever found a legitimate build revolving around [[Shadow Meld]? Yeah I did, I also posted it before in the "Post your original AB build" thread.

[build prof=A/D deadly=12+1+1 critical=8 dagger=10+1][Pious Fury][Scorpion Wire][Iron Palm][Falling Spider][Vampiric Assault][Impale][Signet of Toxic Shock][Shadow Meld][/build]

It's a hell of a load of fun to play.
Basically you use [[Shadow Meld] on a teammate before engaging in battle, cast [[Scorpion [email protected]] on your target, and start your chain with [[Pious [email protected]] -> [[Falling [email protected]].
Incase for some reason, you aren't in a position to use [[Shadow Meld], use [[Iron [email protected]] to get your knockdown instead.

Using [[Shadow Meld] both offencively and defensively is fun! Not that it's thát very effective though.

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

08 May 2009 at 17:49 - 69

I'm not gonna lie, that does look ridiculously fun, but [Shadow Meld][Pious Fury][Scorpion Wire] could be replaced by a well-timed [Wastrel's Collapse][IAS of choice]. That build was probably made before the buff of Wastrel's, but you get my point. Of course that would remove the cool double-shadowstep which is probably the main point of the build

That said, we all know fun > viability in AB, so I'd probably run it even over what I said.

EDIT: holy crap, apparently if you type random IAS inside of [], you get about 50 gajillion skill icons. Good to know.

_Nihilist_

Will Bull's Strike for $!

Join Date: Apr 2006

Isle of the Dead

09 May 2009 at 00:44 - 70

The Dual Shadow Step would make for some very epic Nightcrawler action in AB. It would make my Warrior's head hurt...

Testing the random IAS thing, zelgadissan...

[random IAS]

w00t! not quite 50 gajillion, but damn...

faraaz

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2008

India

Hey Mallyx [icU]

09 May 2009 at 06:46 - 71

At the guy with the narutard avatar...golden phoenix strike does jack shit against blockers, which is pretty much the reason most people use golden fox strike + wild strike. Secondly, if using daggers, there is no excuse not to bring SY! on your bar. Crit defenses is overrated and is a crutch for bad players who dont have a fking clue what they are doing.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

10 May 2009 at 08:47 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killuminati21 View Post

Shadow Slave

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

..My home away from home..

Currently looking ~

10 May 2009 at 11:27 - 73

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

10 May 2009 at 14:54 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

Sigh..............................

Two skills I have a problem with ~ [Deadly Haste] and [Desperate Strike]

DH in particular, it looks like it could be so nice in the right build...but what's the right build? there isnt one, unless you want to spam [healing whisper] or [dancing daggers] or something. xD

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

10 May 2009 at 17:41 - 75

If I had to make a build with Deadly Haste in it, it would be something like:

[build prof=A crit=10+1 dagg=12+1+1 dead=8+1][Black Mantis Thrust][Jungle Strike][Trampling Ox][Disrupting Dagger][Augury of Death][Siphon Speed][Deadly Haste][Resurrection Signet][/build]

I know it's eliteless, sue me. I don't know if DH is worth a slot with any less than three half-range spells. If only two, I'd pitch Augury for an elite of some sort, maybe something simple like AoD, hell maybe MoI.

The biggest problem Deadly Haste has is that it's a Critical Strikes skill. It can't be abused by secondaries, and no straight assacaster would use Critical Strikes, so it's a really, really niche skill that doesn't really have a niche :/

RadaArashi

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

10 May 2009 at 18:07 - 76

I thought I could abuse [Deadly Haste] in RA by using it with [Resurrection Chant] but it really wasn't worth it or any better than [Death Pact Signet]

Balky

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

ARGH

R/Mo

10 May 2009 at 22:29 - 77

Been playing with [Siphon Strength] as it happens

A/Ra build

CS 13, DM 14, DA 8 SA2 WS3

Full Nightstalkers with radiants and 20 ench zelous daggs or whatever you want really, energy is not a problem to be honest

[Serpents Quickness] [Critical Eye] [Critical Agility] [Critical Defenses][Siphon Strength] [Asuran Scan][Dwarven Stability][Shadow Refuge] or[Deaths Charge]

occasionally i drop in [Pain Inverter] for DS

Fun build , reasonable damage for an auto attack setup ,SS reduces incoming attack damage by 29 with DA at 8 with a 59% chance of a crit on any strike

Bill Clinton

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2009

11 May 2009 at 16:50 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Just went and tested Mirrored Stance against Shiro, it doesn't work. I took my mesmer with a skill bar of [Echo][Mirrored Stance] and just kept alternating between the two. Neither Battle Scars nor Riposting Shadows was used. It's a good idea though, I wish it had worked.

In fact, if I had just looked at wiki first I would have known:
This hex does not work on Monster Skills (such as Turtle Shell or Battle Scars). After reading both your replies just now I was kinda shocked... since just two or three months ago I had been using this skill, so I went out to check if it was nerfed or something. Turns out it hasnt... or it has, but unintentionally. I grabed a random build and added miroed stance, went to shiro - and caught him using meditation of the reaper.
Pruf:

EDIT: Looking back, this could just be me being retarded. Meditation is a skill, not a stance. But is it possible that the game mechanics treat it as a stance, not a skill?

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

11 May 2009 at 17:01 - 79

Bill Clinton

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2009

11 May 2009 at 17:10 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan View Post

The Meditation of the Reaper icon shows up whether you have Mirrored Stance or not. Mirrored Stance does not copy monster skills.

Added screenshot for proof. EDIT: with Patient Spirit's icon being enlarged since apparently I took the shot when it was being cast on me, you can see that is one scary face. It also partially covers the Meditation, but the point gets across. Okay, this seems more likely. It is strange that they would nerf mirroed stance like that... I really cant see it getting any use elsewhere.
Even if you were to try and use it to exploit using a primary atribute of another profession such as with [burst of aggression] why would you ever try it over [critical agility] ?
I'm up for variations on typical, overused skills - but thats just a little too conditional for me.

As for in PVP, thats beyond me.