Why shouldn't we get more titles?

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.
What I support is adding a huge pool of titles (a number such as 100 titles does not bother me!) while still keeping the number required for God at 30.
That way the players are able to go after God, but do it in their own way. Because currently it's limited to just - do this and this and this and this and this and this and this and THEN you can choose if you want to do this or that.
Like I said - I feel this would breathe some new air into the game, because it would allow to reach a wide audience of tastes.

That's the thing.
I am. I have two accounts and if I am not mistaken I have over 6k hours of playtime among them.
My ritualist was (is - depending on how long my para-love lasts) my main character and he has 3 max titles.
At the end of the day - I am not going to be running around doing things I don't like.
Still, rewards are good. Even if it's just a crappy title.

I wish YOU didn't have to do things YOU don't like. If God was your goal - I wish you'd be able to obtain it by doing things you consider fun. It's a game after all.
Hopefully someone would say the same thing for me.
(And yeah, I am not always this nice. If you gaining something would mean that I couldn't get it - I'd throw one hell of a hissy fit! )

Achievement systems are the hype recently.

And they have gone out of control. The execution is flawed. Note that this is a general criticism of the achievement systems in various games, not only GW.


People go for an achievement if the tiniest kind of "reward" is associated with it. Regardless what kind of strange stuff they are expected to do. Case in point: Legendary Defender of Ascalon.

Add in Meta-Achievements like the KOABD title track or the Purple or what was it 310% speed mount in WoW and associate skill power with certain title tracks, and the achievement ideas that mostly evolve around doing things is a mostly silly and dumb way (basically, the new WoW bonus achievements: Make easy fights harder by doing them in the most artificial and dumbest way imaginable) and you created something really odd.

It shapes player behaviour and mindset in a certain way.
It extends the lifespan of a game by giving them "something to do", but does not necessarily add more fun. In fact it can even burn out completionists.

Some examples. The LOTRO titles e.g.: THE BELOVED - get kissed or hugged 1000 times or so, but it counts only 3 times in 24 hours.
So people log in and hug someone close to them, who hugs back as a courtesy.


Guild Wars is already a quite single-player focused game with heroes and henchies, and I do not mean that negatively right now. Do we really need achievements that basically tell people "Run out of Boreal station several thousand times and open treasure chests"?

We do not need to do it, it is optional, is the usual reply. True. But think about the carrot. People go for even the smallest imaginable "reward". We do not even know what we get for this or that monument in GW2, but people work on it.



I do not think that people who "work" on the more grindy and repetitive titles are really contributing to some kind of community or basically exist at all. They could as well be logged off and offline, play single player.

The positive aspect of achievement systems is if they make people cooperate. While I am not too happy about the WoW achievement system, it has more diverse objectives and not endless repetition. I really liked the mass raids on Horde/Alliance cities for the warbear achievement.


Then there is also the question if we really want some Zaishen dude (not really achievement related, but something similar) or NPC or title track sheet tell us what we have to do. I hate such "to-do" lists, and favor a more open ended sandbox style. OK, the term sandbox is overused.


I am not absolutely against titles and achievements. They can also be very nice and serve as pointer for the community "what to do", like the Zaishen Quests.

But just adding one more buy-grind-crap-title? Not really.


Related:
http://www.brokentoys.org/2009/05/02...-achievements/
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=1052

Titles/achievements are a cheap way for developers to add content without adding any content. A lot of the achievements in WoW are just "do the dungeon again, but try harder," which is not really any more fun than doing it the first time, or holiday achievements to get people to keep their accounts open with promises of e-rewards of dubious usefulness.

They work though, as there is evidently a large segment of the population who want to play every RPG to 105% completion. Being online and being able to show others what you've done is only more enticement for those inclined to do so.

Me, I just log on and do whatever makes me happy for a few hours.

What often turns me off is that players get seduced to FARM like mad during holiday events by the title and achievement crap.

Nobody cares about any celebration ... if fun things can be done like... farming for bday cupcakes, or standing AFK for 72+ hours in a circle...

keke

and yeah, pinguinus, titles/achievements are rather poor content extenders. They stretch content without adding anything new.

I see a lot of Guild Wars players assume that their definition of fun is the only valid one. They don't enjoy title-hunting, therefore title-hunting can't be enjoyable for anyone, ever. And if you think it is fun, well, you're just plain wrong.

All of which is rubbish. While I'm sure that there are people out there who don't actually like the process of title-hunting, but put themselves through it anyway, many people actually do find it fun, and I'm afraid their fun is no less valid than yours. As far as I'm concerned, they can remove the ability to display titles and make them visible to the player only, and I'll still go for the ones I'm going for now, and ignore the ones I'm ignoring now (Wisdom) because they don't fit my definition of fun. I'd do precisely the same if Guild Wars were a single-player game. If you don't like the existence of particular titles, or of titles at all, exercise that right to ignore they exist. It doesn't mean they shouldn't.

I'd be all in favour of the OP's suggestion of seeing more titles added. If they provide title-hunters with a bit more enjoyment without damaging the fun of those who don't want them (except that odd minority who take offence at the existence of anything they aren't interested in getting), why not? It won't lessen the respect given to GWAMM. That respect doesn't exist (I find the notion of respect for a title a little silly myself anyway; respect is something you gain in the workplace, not in front of a computer pretending to be a necromancer). Regardless of the title you have, it's a given that the majority of the Guild Wars populace doesn't respect it and probably doesn't even look at it. Most people are only interested in the achievements of themselves and their friends, not of strangers, and as has already been commented, they're more or less all buyable anyway.

I'd enjoy seeing some new maxable titles myself. The non-maxable ones don't often interest me (but I don't mind them existing), as there's a limited amount of time in which I'm interested in doing the same thing.

Okay. I don't mind GWAMM getting 'downgraded' like people are saying, as long as I'm still able to get to 30 titles.

More titles would be nice, but again, what actions could possible be turned into a title?

As previously mentioned:
quests, animal collector, stupid things like "party kills 10k foes", a survivor replacement for old guys like "achieve 1 mil xp without dying", more role-playing titles like "Luxon Spy" where the game counts the number of times a guy that is in a Luxon guild redeems Kurzick rewards, "Naughty Librarian" for a guy (or a girl ) that turns in all books, a title for the a specific number of times you win Aspy/JQ (which could be two differently named titles - one for the Luxons and one for kurzicks) ... just a bit more really dumb titles.
These titles could only count towards God, but not towards the Favor count to not screw that up also (/rolleyes).

couldn't agree more.

Men give us more REAL content ...but pls no more titles

Titles themselves are only fun if you suffer from OCD. I recently finished vanquishing Elona, and I was very happy when I finished, not because of the text below my name or the bar being filled up, but because I set a personal goal and spent many hours achieving it. I had fun vanquishing all the areas with H/H and no consumables, which was the personal objective I had. The resultant title was secondary to that.

No one can sanely argue that titles are more fun than or a substitute for new content; that would be like saying you would rather stay at home than go on vacation because your house is better than a hotel.

Titles are fine for keeping track of your achievements, but when you get people sitting in GToB buying sweets all day so they can set up their clicking program, go to sleep, and wake up with a new title, that's not fun, that's a compulsion.

Do you like easy achievements? Me not.
I saw too many gods in game...isn't enought?

I'd like to see a Quest-title, but that's about it, really. I'd rather have them spend their time on something else.

Sorry, but I'm just seeing another "my definition of fun is the only valid one" argument here, and it doesn't really seem to hold any more water than any such arguments that've been made before it. YOU had fun vanquishing Elona but YOU didn't find the title itself to be the incentive. YOU wouldn't find it fun to sit there clicking on sweets all day. That's cool, but "you" is the important part of each of those sentences. After all, who are you to attempt to objectively define what's fun for people who are not you?

For instance, I quite like the consumables titles, because very often when we're done with the zquests for the day, a couple of friends and I will hang out, use up our mysterious/cottontail tonics, and chat while we watch TV and enjoy the very trippy experience of a drunk rainbow phoenix chasing a pair of sugar rushed bunnies through the guild hall. That's not fun? No, sorry, you only get to decide that for you, not for me or anyone else.

- Have you ever considered that perhaps the skill needed is not merely of being able to complete certain area. The game would be a failure if majority wouldn't be able to complete some areas. Tank & spank holy trinity is crappy build by today's standards, but it still works even if it's slow. Whole point of the excessive grind tracks is to find the most effective way to complete them, aka. speed-clear of permasins, arcane-RoJs and consumables. Yet even when you know the build, some teams fail, because they don't work together. Speed is skill.

Titles naturally devalue over time as anyone can get them by investing enough time. Same thing goes for every newly released items and their farmers.

I'm pretty sure there was alcohol before the titles (if only hunter's ale). The title isn't what's giving you enjoyment, it's the items. I use whatever party stuff I get, too. You're confusing the fun that you get by doing the things associated with he title and the title itself.

My monk has done every quest in Cantha, except for the ones only available to native Canthans. If they added a quest title, it wouldn't make that any more fun, it would just expand the hero panel another few pixels. Titles are not content. They're interesting, sure. I'm glad they're there, but wasting time adding more titles instead of a skill balance (new skill dynamics means new builds, which is likely the most new content we'll see until GW2) or other new content is not a good investment of resources.

- Isn't this what playing is in purest form? Having fun and trying new stuff. I never thought that organized sports were that much fun. The problem is that games these days are starting to resemble work. All these timed events, community-made rules, external rewards. Drinking virtual beer and pretending you're drunkard might be fun for someone, but when you add title to stand there clocking 10,000 minutes worth of button pressing you kill the whole concept of fun. It's even less fun if you're forced to do so to get title you won't be displaying, but as prerequisite for some other title.

Yah, cuz you cant BUY Hero or Champ points huh? Do you read these forums? You can buy those too, so lets not just be some arrogant "PvP r better than PvE folk"

Add more titles and they may aswell add a 6th teir and call it " Mere Mortal Walking Amongst Gods."

There are enough titles as it is. You dont like the money sink ones? Than i suggest you try and max the PVP ones. Alliance titles nowadys require 1/2 the effort to max! Do one or both of those.

Maxing GWAMM should remain as it was always intended to be. Hard to get. Eighter by being skillfull or by investing lots of time.

/not signed!

Chorus, why do we need a title track for nearly everything possible?

Can't we do what is fun for us without having someone create a title track for this or that?

This is also the problem with the "my fun is not your fun" notion and different player opinions what is fun to them.

It is perfectly fine - but then add title tracks and a carrot.
It shapes player behaviour and mentality enormously.

I have seen people hunting for various titles even if it is *not* fun for them.
(edit: just read Scott Jenning's blog about WoW PvE players waiting for a flag to drop in various battlegrounds just to get an achievement required for a meta-achievement)
Heck, I thought about ways of getting GWAMM without having to do too much crap and spending too much time for it regularly, too. I recently had the notion that the Zaishen quests provide tons of Kurzick/Luxon Faction, and then 29 would turn into 30 titles. Not that I would get anything for it, but I still would like it...

Maybe pinguinus is right about the obsessive–compulsive disorder.

Still, even without OCD taken in account, I see many friends playing the game almost as slaves of the Zaishen and/or their title track process. Always looking for doing this or that just to complete the title tracks. Very high percentage of OCD there? Maybe not OCD, but something similar.

aapo already mentioned it, games start to resemble "work" and set this "work" as some ultimate final objective in the game.

Drunkard was indeed much more funny when people were drunk and NOT compulsory drinking EVERY minute they do a mission, post-processing turned out. Or idling in guild hall or zoning in and out to accelerate the drunkard point gain.

Someone please dare to say this is their idea of fun? I call it fostering bad player habits.

There are too many titles already.
Just make rank6 (GWAMM) = 35titles // or add +5 to all maxed titles ranks.

This is a win-win situation since:
1) keeps busy all those players that are title hunting oriented
2) doesn't demand anet resources

those who don't care about titles are not affected anyway...

Achievements are all how you look at it. Getting titles in Guild Wars and WoW is just like collecting all the trophies in Smash Bros or unlocking achievements in on Xbox Live. They aren't exactly necessary, but fun to obtain at times. I want an achievement system to return in Guild Wars 2 but at a broader scale.

Title tracks are fun for some. And they allow you to keep track of your achievements without having to write things down - like legendary vanquisher and guardian, for example. How specifically does a title track (besides the ones that encourage leeching/botting) ruin your fun?

Online rpgs always have a carrot. Before titles the carrot was stuff like FoW armor, shiny weapons, and rank. People used to farm repetitively back then. Tons of them used to trap farm UW, which was one of the most mind-numbing things ever.

The alternative is to have what anet initially envisioned, a short pve game with pvp as the endgame. And as we all know that didn't work out.

For some, arriving at the destination is the fun part. For some, it's the journey. For most of us, it's a little bit of both.

Whatever activity players engage in is fun enough for them to keep doing it... or they wouldn't keep doing it.

You call it "work" but if players are doing it in their free time, they're getting some enjoyment out of it.

And how do these bad habits affect you?

Being anti-carrot in a genre that gets its longevity from carrots makes no sense. Go for the carrots you like. Or ignore carrots if you don't like them...

I'll probably never get GWAMM, but I'd like everybody in GW to be able to pursue whatever they like, and more options for titles does just that.

As if you could not see what you have done without a title track.

That the PvP game does not get popular is no reason to make the PvE game dumb, too. They do not create any new content with title tracks, they just add repetitive tasks. In some cases the do it 10.000 times titles.

Oh please...

No, this is not the causal connection.

I know a lot of chestrunners who set themselves 100 chests per day, lowered it to 50 and got fed up with it... and they still do it, even if they do not like it. They work for r6, this is their reason.

See above.

Achievement systems make players focus on the achievement track, see posting above. I already explained it, you just did not get it.

You mean was about having fun. Now it is a rat race to see who has the most titles which is actually becoming a chore more than it is about fun.

There is too much to do now. There is not enough time to do what we already have. Hate may be too strong a word. Only about a 1/3 of what is implemented is done so with sufficient forethought. Only about 1/10 of what is not implemented with enough forethought is adequately repaired in a timely manner. Just not interested in more screw ups to what started out as the best possibility in the gaming world. Granted, when one does a lot of things right it is hard to do more without screwing up the average.

The initial problem with GW was always poverty. With each improvement on intake there has been an exponential increase in available costs. The game ceased allowing for casual players a long Long time ago in a null space half remembered.

There is no longer a point where one can say, "I have it done, I can go help the new guys." It will never be done, and the new guys will have to fend for themselves. No need for more obstacles.

It is about having fun. some people find it fun to push the bars further to the right, you obviously don't. Other people doing it won't effect you, it doesn't give them an advantage over you, you don't have to do it if you think it is a "chore."

Think for a moment about what people have written about the system, wetsparks.

Falling back to the usual Guru crap flawed argumentations "everything is optional" and "fun is different for anyone" only goes so far and turns into pure shite if it ends in statements that pushing the bars further right, +1, +1, is "fun".

Like what..?

new title:

1) I Am Very Rich

silver - when you buy 1 storage tab
gold - when you buy 2 storage tabs
diamond - when you buy 3 storage tabs
platinum - when you buy 4 storage tabs

2) Michael Jackson

when you've use 10,000 tokens for makeovers

You can buy hero and champ titles also....

OK. Now I get it.

You arbitrarily decide what "fun" is. And then use your self-designed metric of "fun" to decide what titles should and should not exist.

Until you prove that your definition of fun is anything but arbitrary, you won't be taken seriously.

This is how I see it too.

I'm not an achievement RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO by any means, but most of the time I enjoy going for achievements, particularly the ones that extend replayability to a game. That's what I think titles should be like too, perhaps they'd be a little easier to get but they should be enjoyable things that you want to go out and do.

If the majority of players think they're too hard/too time consuming to get, then I don't see the point, they're not adding anything to the game and exist only for e-peen sake.

Titles are stupid and for carebears. Give me more power and challenge vs some silly drunkard title. There's nothing in this game for those that want to obtain never ending power or godlike power (although 3 heroes in hard mode comes pretty close to godlike powers in this easy game or of course the perma stupid sin or the 55 exploit monk).

We need more games like Everquest that put you to the test expansion after expansion but without a monthly fee.

I'm one of those that doesn't like linear or games that end. GW ends in every chapter. The level content ends in a few hours (level 20 max). The loot content ends with +15^50 and +30hp and/or +20% hsr hcs enchantments and the other blah blah mods that end at +20%.

There are no real money syncs except noobish goals like fancy looking armors that cost 15k per piece that have no stat value greater than 1500gp armors. Mini stupid childish pets, what do they do? How do they enhance the story of the game or play value of the game or challenge value of the game? They are nothing more than lag attractions. Then we have the stupid looking VOX robot lol in a medieval type fantasy setting we have a stupid out of context robot. The Devs really need to get off the crack and LSD stuff.

Titles in GW I agree though are the ONLY carrot left in the game. They put that attraction that you MIGHT get something great in GW2 if you obtain these titles and build up your HOM. I know they can't do such because it would throw GW2 out of balance in what people have and start out with and if there's a big advantage then others just will not buy GW2 for the same reasons they don't buy into WOW or the other mmorpgs they can't compete in for wealth and fame.

GW has the grind now, they just don't have the powercord to draw in the majority of other players from the other mmorpgs. That's where the money is, they know it, I know it and most of you know it but don't want to admit it or be part of that game design. When they add the power and the loot content of the other rgps online with no monthly fee, they will become the powerhouse of the decade. Just wait till Diablo III comes out you'll see a mass exodus for quite some time from the GW community because it like GW has no monthly fee, but, it will have power levels up to 99 and loot content that will be out of this world fun to find and obtain and use. I just hope they increase the GD storage container in this one. lol

Not unless ArenaNet makes "cross-game gameplay" between GW1 and GW2 quests and missions, off course not now, have to be when we are already playing GW2. Could be some kind of "time travel" mission, but implementing it might be a bit of a problem. log out of GW2, log into GW1 complete the quests/missions, report to HoM. Log in GW2 again, get "something" from some "crossover" npc that act as the "bridge" between GW1 and GW2, blah blah blah.

Although I am suspecting that Yakkington is ArenaNet, testing the randomly spawn npcs thing, although still not random enough IMHO. we should not be able to expect anything at all in GW2, anytime you go anywhere, its totally new, except the gamescape, although the gamescape can be random too, for instant, if you accidentally step into somekind of unknown invisible fields/portals we will arrive at somewhere where we totally don't expect.

anyway

Does feeding the poor at the local homeless shelter count towards the KOABD title track?

If anything, it's the people who have GWAMM who want new title so that there's something left to do in the game. It's the people who are going for GWAMM and aren't there yet that hate it because then they have extra work to do. Casual players don't care either way and would rather have new titles for fun.

Really, your logic makes no sense, simply because there has been a large proportion of people opposing it even before everyone and their moms have GWAMM. Then again, what was I expecting? Good logic on these forums?

Its pretty simple...

All the crappy grind titles in the game were added so some of the long time players dont quit if they have a masochistic side and grind forever...

Titles are just a poor excuse for the lack of content in the game... even prophecies were too small and short... u were only left with pvp after 2-3 months of playing...

If they add new titles to the game... they will add more ranks for KoBD... Simple... it will happen since there really are ppl with nothing to do anymore...

P.S. i got God Walk... almost 2 years ago... so... this game hasen't been fun since they nerfed grifons outside camp rankor and air spike in tombs

Vote 1 for quest title. That's all I want

Achievement titles are the only titles I like.
I had many of those titles before they added them, because I try to unlock, do and get everything.

If you look at possible achievements in the game, so far the only one left that would be actually goo to add is an Adventurer title for competing secondary quests in post-Port areas (the ones after Lion's Arch, After Kaineng, and After Consulate Docks).
It's the only one left.

new title: very easy to do, simply have to log in to 3 of your characters everyday to achieve, title will be added automatically to your HoM onces you activate GW2 account

I'd die without guild wars - log in to play GW everyday, starting now until GW2 beta-launch.

i think this one should be in the game, since it will make more players want to log in.

IMHO:

GWAMM is an incentive to make players keep playing the game until 2009, when it was introduced, but now we have to wait until 2010-2011. I think Upier make a point in one of their post, GWAMM still need only 30 max title. However, there can be 100 titles choices to choose from. Why? Part of the reason I'd stop playing was the game becoming bored and stale after repeatedly doing the same thing, an if i remember, my goal was to make a GWAMM for each profession. To be honest, i drained myself out, trying to get the next max title is just too troublesome for me to want to log into the game for the past 4 months. All the titles are fairly easy to achieve now-a-days with all the tutorials and guides. However, Is it interesting enough to make players want to get them? For some maybe, but, for someone like myself, nah, the interest wears out quickly. But if we get to choose from 100 titles, some fairly easy to achieve, I might still be playing the game today, I might return to complete my "titles hunting" activities.

As far as I can make out, the only possible reason to add more titles is to make GWAMM easier.

Why should GWAMM be easier? Because some people want everything handed to them without having to earn it. The whole suggestion says "I want GWAMM but it's too hard". Well it isn't too hard, anyone can get it if they want it enough, and it's not as if there isn't enough time for a normal player to get it before GW2 is released (or even after GW2 is released).

The biggest problem with the current titles is the sheer grind that they take. Titles should be got through normal gameplay, not the same gameplay thousands of times repeated when there is no other reason to. The rebalance of the Kurzick/Luxon titles was a step in the right direction as they added more options of different gameplay to get these titles (more are needed, these are still monster grind titles). If they concentrated more on that sort of update things would be a lot better.

Maybe now that GW is officially a micro-payment business model, we could buy these titles with real cash? You already can with multile accounts/Xunlai House Z-Key farming.