I don't get it... Isn't having a permanent +12 armor penetration something supposed to be very good?
Can someone please educate me on why strength is looked down upon? From what I can see, personally, is that it has a bunch of very good skills like Warrior's Endurance and its effect isn't too bad.
Why is strength looked down upon?
Lishy
Arkantos
Who looks down upon it?
The inherit effect isn't the greatest in the game (not the worst, though), but it has some very good skills ([bulls strike][warriors endurance][flail][body blow][enraging charge] etc).
Seriously, if someone says strength is bad, they don't know much about warriors. A warrior without strength is a fail warrior.
The inherit effect isn't the greatest in the game (not the worst, though), but it has some very good skills ([bulls strike][warriors endurance][flail][body blow][enraging charge] etc).
Seriously, if someone says strength is bad, they don't know much about warriors. A warrior without strength is a fail warrior.
Lishy
In that case, why do people say its effect is bad?
How does the armor penetration work anyways?
I mean, it's safe to conclude skills like Warrior's Endurance, Flail, Enraging Charge, Body Blow, etc... are simply just amazing skills. But albeit, I still hear people talking negatively of Strength. So is there a key factor I'm missing?
How does the armor penetration work anyways?
I mean, it's safe to conclude skills like Warrior's Endurance, Flail, Enraging Charge, Body Blow, etc... are simply just amazing skills. But albeit, I still hear people talking negatively of Strength. So is there a key factor I'm missing?
samerkablamer
people dont talk down on strength. i dunno where people come up with this. every singel viable warrior build has strength in it. the actual inherent effect isnt too good, but on a warrior you dont really need the inherent effect of strength as much as you need the skills from that attribute line
Arkantos
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_penetration
Quote:
Quote:
13 strength, 60AL target, critical hit = 67 damage
0 strength, 60AL target, critical hit = 59 damage
In other words, against a 60AL target, with 13 strength, it's like your target has about 52 armor. The more armor your target has, the bigger difference AP makes. It's not a huge difference, but it's a difference none the less.
Just because a few people say strength is bad doesn't make it bad. If anything, it makes the player look like pretty bad.
Skyy High
^ That. Strength doesn't have much of an inherent effect, a few damage points really. When you look at it that way, it's one of the weaker primary attributes. On the other hand, it has some of the strongest skills among primary attributes. If you heard someone "looking down on" strength, either he was talking about the effect alone, or he's an idiot.
ajc2123
plus the armor penetration are only applied to attack skills (ones that dont already have armor penetration)
Sometimes a couple extra points is all you need honestly. I cant remember how many times i walked away with 1-10 health in RA and won. Funny stuff
Sometimes a couple extra points is all you need honestly. I cant remember how many times i walked away with 1-10 health in RA and won. Funny stuff
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc2123
plus the armor penetration are only applied to attack skills (ones that dont already have armor penetration)
Sometimes a couple extra points is all you need honestly. I cant remember how many times i walked away with 1-10 health in RA and won. Funny stuff This. I really can't stress this enough.
Just looking at it, it doesn't seem like much, no. But really, 13% AP can be the difference between a win or a lose in annihilation, and it can be the difference between killing the enemy monk which can lead to a party wipe or not killing the enemy monk. When you factor in that stuff, it's far from bad.
Even in PvE, the extra AP against an enemy isn't much, but at the end of the zone, you'll have pumped out quite a bit more damage.
Sometimes a couple extra points is all you need honestly. I cant remember how many times i walked away with 1-10 health in RA and won. Funny stuff This. I really can't stress this enough.
Just looking at it, it doesn't seem like much, no. But really, 13% AP can be the difference between a win or a lose in annihilation, and it can be the difference between killing the enemy monk which can lead to a party wipe or not killing the enemy monk. When you factor in that stuff, it's far from bad.
Even in PvE, the extra AP against an enemy isn't much, but at the end of the zone, you'll have pumped out quite a bit more damage.
Axel Zinfandel
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc2123
plus the armor penetration are only applied to attack skills (ones that dont already have armor penetration)
Sometimes a couple extra points is all you need honestly. I cant remember how many times i walked away with 1-10 health in RA and won. Funny stuff
I'd have to stress that point as well. I went through playing GW for a long time before I realized that the AP from Strength did not apply to auto-attacking, and only applied to attack skills.
Sometimes a couple extra points is all you need honestly. I cant remember how many times i walked away with 1-10 health in RA and won. Funny stuff
I'd have to stress that point as well. I went through playing GW for a long time before I realized that the AP from Strength did not apply to auto-attacking, and only applied to attack skills.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyy High
I'm not saying it doesn't help, just that it's not as game-changing (or profession-defining) as Expertise, SR, Crit strikes, FC, ES, or Leadership.
Oh I know, it wasn't directed at you. I was just showing how even though it doesn't seem like much, it can make a big difference.
Winterclaw
As Ark said effects of the strength attribute are moderate, but I think that its skills more than make up for any shortcomings. TBH, that's kind of good if you ask me as it isn't overpowered like some primaries and it isn't underpowered like others. Thinking about it like that, it's one of the more balanced primaries in the game.
Anyways compared to tactics, strength is good enough as it is.
Anyways compared to tactics, strength is good enough as it is.
faraaz
Strength is fine by itself. Its only bad when comparing with better (arguably) alternatives for particular builds, the most famous of which is [warrior's endurance][aura of holy might] vs. [critical agility][aura of holy might][wounding strike]. In this particular case, because you get the full scythe damage on auto crit almost all the time, the Sin build is superior in terms of DPS, hence Strength is "bad".
But no, its fine on its own.
But no, its fine on its own.
Lux Aeterna
Strength isn't one of the best primary attributes, but it definitely adds 12 damage or so to your attack skills and warrior is already a powerful class esp in pvp.
Autoattack crits for 73, [hammer bash] crits for 84...
A good sin can out-dps a warrior, however a good warrior is FAR more useful to a team. And I out-damage many sins with a build that isn't specifically built for dps.
Autoattack crits for 73, [hammer bash] crits for 84...
A good sin can out-dps a warrior, however a good warrior is FAR more useful to a team. And I out-damage many sins with a build that isn't specifically built for dps.
Icy The Mage
Strength is good because a 111-dmg bull's strike, followed by a crushing blow and any other attack will rape anyone that isn't protted or red-barred instantly when KDed.
faraaz
Marty Silverblade
Also, perhaps bad players don't think much of the inherent ability because it's not something that very noticable. If you're just randomly rolling through PvE you really wouldn't be able to tell how much Strength is actually helping, whereas in PvP it's easier to find a difference.
Improvavel
Players think that strength is bad because they think warriors are meant to not die. So they want a character than don't die, not one that does damage...
Go figure.
Go figure.
DreamRunner
The effect of strength isn't that good. Compare to the effects of other primary attributes, strength can be seen to not having much difference at all, therefore quite bad. The only thing that makes it really good is the large variety of skills and good skills which some other classes don't even get(see Ritualist)
Trader of Secrets
Strength way better than tatics, ever since they nerfed all those stances. Not too much in there. All the builds I play with warrior dont req strength.
Neo Atomisk
To just give a figure on the AP...
its almost 3/4 of a sundering bonus with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK SKILL.
which is to say, this +sundering=minimum of x1.14 dmg with skills, and occasionally x1.23 overall, OR x1.41 with attacks.
...and the skills are godly.
its almost 3/4 of a sundering bonus with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK SKILL.
which is to say, this +sundering=minimum of x1.14 dmg with skills, and occasionally x1.23 overall, OR x1.41 with attacks.
...and the skills are godly.
Axel Zinfandel
Strenth is the pretty much the opposite of Spawning Power.
Good inherent effect and amazing skills.
Good inherent effect and amazing skills.
kupp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk
To just give a figure on the AP...
its almost 3/4 of a sundering bonus with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK SKILL.
which is to say, this +sundering=minimum of x1.14 dmg with skills, and occasionally x1.23 overall.
...and the skills are godly. This is something that I always wondered, does the 20/20 sundering mod on a weapon stack with the strenght AP?
its almost 3/4 of a sundering bonus with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK SKILL.
which is to say, this +sundering=minimum of x1.14 dmg with skills, and occasionally x1.23 overall.
...and the skills are godly. This is something that I always wondered, does the 20/20 sundering mod on a weapon stack with the strenght AP?
faraaz
Yes...however, the effect of the 20/20 mod is replicated by a spell such as Judge's Insight, effectively rendering Sundering mods obsolete ^^
evenfall
Neo Atomisk
Oh wow, sorry, when I checked that on wiki last night I misread the do for don't.
Look up, I edited the % AP for my above post
Judge's Insight and Sundering UPGRADES, which causes BONUS AP, DO Stack with the BASE AP. You can't get a sunderin mod + hornbow + judge's insight and get 50% AP.
Air Magic, Strength, sundering weapon (weapon spell) etc, cause BASE AP. The highest one counts.
tl;dr, Take the highest Bonus AP and the Highest Base AP, add them together, and you get your AP.
Look up, I edited the % AP for my above post
Judge's Insight and Sundering UPGRADES, which causes BONUS AP, DO Stack with the BASE AP. You can't get a sunderin mod + hornbow + judge's insight and get 50% AP.
Air Magic, Strength, sundering weapon (weapon spell) etc, cause BASE AP. The highest one counts.
tl;dr, Take the highest Bonus AP and the Highest Base AP, add them together, and you get your AP.
Empress Amarox
Gforce
Why strength owns:
-Very good skills (Especially for PvP, a little less so in PvE)
-Decent inherent effect
-There are shields linked to it
These reasons justify having atleast 9 strength always (tactics suck, getting a shield from that line would be stupid for a warrior).
-Very good skills (Especially for PvP, a little less so in PvE)
-Decent inherent effect
-There are shields linked to it
These reasons justify having atleast 9 strength always (tactics suck, getting a shield from that line would be stupid for a warrior).
_Nihilist_
I've sworn by Strength ever since getting GW in January 2006, back when you still saw loads of people using Tactics.
Strength has great skills for both PvE and PvP use:
[Bull's [email protected]] - used by any Warrior worth their party slot in PvP
[Power [email protected]] - used with [[Warrior's Endurance] to spam +36 damage attacks
[Body [email protected]] - used for any weapon to get +36 damage for 7A (mostly Axe to swap out for [Executioner's Strike])
[Warrior's [email protected]] - especially since it was buffed to be a Skill, not a Stance, can be used to power high-energy demand builds ([[Power [email protected]] Spam is fun)
[[email protected]] - the best IAS for PvE, and for Hammer Warriors in PvP
[Enraging [email protected]] - instant charge of your Adrenaline skills while under "FGJ!", anyone?
Strength is linked to Shields, so you get nice skills and a max armor shield for investment into a single attribute.
The armor penetration only works on attack skills (not auto-attacks), which is the crappy part, but I'll take the extra armor penetration on attack skills over not having any at all, tyvm. By the time you've gone through a zone, you've used enough attack skills that the armor penetration has dealt some decent (extra) damage, and as Warriors, damage is what we do.
Strength has great skills for both PvE and PvP use:
[Bull's [email protected]] - used by any Warrior worth their party slot in PvP
[Power [email protected]] - used with [[Warrior's Endurance] to spam +36 damage attacks
[Body [email protected]] - used for any weapon to get +36 damage for 7A (mostly Axe to swap out for [Executioner's Strike])
[Warrior's [email protected]] - especially since it was buffed to be a Skill, not a Stance, can be used to power high-energy demand builds ([[Power [email protected]] Spam is fun)
[[email protected]] - the best IAS for PvE, and for Hammer Warriors in PvP
[Enraging [email protected]] - instant charge of your Adrenaline skills while under "FGJ!", anyone?
Strength is linked to Shields, so you get nice skills and a max armor shield for investment into a single attribute.
The armor penetration only works on attack skills (not auto-attacks), which is the crappy part, but I'll take the extra armor penetration on attack skills over not having any at all, tyvm. By the time you've gone through a zone, you've used enough attack skills that the armor penetration has dealt some decent (extra) damage, and as Warriors, damage is what we do.
FoxBat
Zigathon
Power Attack is amazing if you have the energy to spam it.
Marty Silverblade
Neo Atomisk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
I disagree. 13% AP on attack skills shouldn't be overlooked, and will always be useful, regardless of what type of build you're running, whereas many Rit builds don't bother with SP at all due to its complete irrelevance to the build.
i agree. its comparable to half a non-elemental conjure.
Zigathon
A good rule of thumb is ANY class shouldn't overlook its primary attribute. Except Mesmers and Ritualists.
faraaz
Idk about mesmers...running 9 in FC is kinda nifty IMO...especially in PvP...damn interrupt spamming Rangers ftl...
Zigathon
Well, thanks for showing me up for only running Mesmers as a secondary.
RadaArashi
As someone whose main is an Assassin, I wish my primary had a useful IAS, IMS, self-heal, utility.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying Critical Strikes skills suck.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying Critical Strikes skills suck.
Paul Dawg
Basically right, but you can't mean [way of perfection]. That's a Shadow Arts skill. Maybe you mean [way of the assassin]?
Quote:
Originally Posted by faraaz
Quote:
Aaanyhoo, what are you smoking? [Critical Agility] is not a good enough IAS for you? Or are you talking about PvP only? And stuff like Way of Perfection is fueled by your primary attribute, so I don't see what the problem is? Oh and if you want utility, you've got stuff like [Assassin's Remedy]...so what are you complaining about? 
Maneo Ranae
Faraaz said that Way of Perfection is FUELED by the primary attribute, not that it is IN the primary attribute. And (s)he's right when (s)he says that, because Way of Perfection depends on Critical Hits.
Honestly, I haven't got a clue as to what those guys, saying 'Strength sucks!', are smoking. Strength is a great primary attribute, if not one of the greatest. It's the only primary attribute that has more than just 4/5 good/effective skills in there. And the inherent effect is pretty good too =).
And Strength allows for some pretty nice builds! For me in particular, the W/D Enduring Scythe, a W/P with a Spear... Maybe even a W/A with high Strength, Warrior's Endurance and Daggers! Never tried that one yet...
Just tell those guys who tell you that Strength sucks; 'Up yours'.
Honestly, I haven't got a clue as to what those guys, saying 'Strength sucks!', are smoking. Strength is a great primary attribute, if not one of the greatest. It's the only primary attribute that has more than just 4/5 good/effective skills in there. And the inherent effect is pretty good too =).
And Strength allows for some pretty nice builds! For me in particular, the W/D Enduring Scythe, a W/P with a Spear... Maybe even a W/A with high Strength, Warrior's Endurance and Daggers! Never tried that one yet...
Just tell those guys who tell you that Strength sucks; 'Up yours'.