Ok, these skills in PvE are not as good as you all like to think. In every derv build, you all keep recommending WS and CV. Yes, it's true that in a GvG meta A YEAR AGO those skills were the key to a gimmicky pressure build. Wounding Strike allowed AoE deepwound on a lot of soft targets that couldn't be cleaned up because RC was locked down by Humsig, and CV against 60 AL human targets was very damaging after the initial WS. But this is PvE, not the June '08 GvG meta.
First, WS. You're giving up your elite for spammable DW. How often do you need DW? Every 3 seconds? Goodness no. Maybe every 6, or even 8. Think about HM - you need the damage every 3 seconds, not the DW. For an A/D with WS it's a bit different because the assassin will crit much more often, but think Dervish here. Against high-level enemies with high armor, your WS is inferior compared to elites that gives you more damage and utility. The Deep Wound can come from other sources - it's very silly that you all keep recommending this elite.
Next, CV. It deals cold damage if you have more health. How often in HM are you going to have more health? Not unless they're already blowing up. It's 10 energy for mediocre damage with a fairly conditional bit of damage that deals cold damage. There's a reason everyone opts for AL-ignoring damage in HM, and there's a reason elementalists are not very powerful damage dealers in HM, and there's a bloody reason no one uses [deathly swarm] in HM - because of HM armor.
You all keep suggesting mediocre-pve elite #1, and you all keep suggesting a very mediocre attack skill - 10e for a pretty shitty aoe effect. Re-evaluate damage and armor in PvE and realize why the skills dominated that meta in GvG, but don't in PvE.
Wounding Strike and Chilling Victory
Snow Bunny
Xsiriss
I agree,gogo reaper's sweep which removes enchs too, hell in pve most of the time you don't need deepwound unless in HM, where you can use deepwound through some other way. I use augury of death on a sab on my derv, which does the job fine.
Improvavel
WS can be used up to 20 times per minute, for a cost of 100 energy. It can hit a max of 60 enemies and min of 20 per minute. Or a min of 1200 enemies to a max of 3600 per hour.
Something like a wearying strike can be used up to 10 times in one minute. Min of 10 enemies max of 30 per minute. Or a min of 600 enemies to a max of 1800 per hour.
Another curious thing is that the combo of Melandru (the avatar that costs more)+wearying strike used 10 per minute+eternal aura 1 per minute costs 25+50+10=85 energy, which is less than the cost of spamming WS.
Ok, you might not need spamming WS every time is ready, but then again isn't the reason to bring it in the first place that u need to spam it?
Most of the time the max number of enemies you will be fighting is 8 or less. Curiously, the bigger the number of the enemies present the easier is to hit several enemies at the same time, further reducing the number of times you need to use the dw skill, making the recharge advantage of WS even further.
Also curiously, is that when there are few enemies its easier for them to stay spread making it harder to hit several at a time. But then again, going from one enemy to the other takes time - and its not like you are going to dw one enemy, then move to the next and deep wound him, while your party finishes the first. Most likely what it happens is that you stay there till the enemy is dead and only then move to your next target.
I think this idea of you needing dw every 3 seconds stems from the fact people don't understand deep wound very well.
Deep wound reduces both max health and current health by 20% of the max health (to a maximum of 100). That means any level 21+ mob will lose 100 health, regarless of it being full health or under 20% health (or any other percentage).
A deep wound will always deal 100 damage (unless there is a deep wound already present).
Occasionally, in special circumstances, WS will be superior, but most of the time it will be inferior to an avatar, and if you are afraid of the 25 energy melandru, dwayna and grenths have quite decent abilities - grenth will life steal for 18 per hit.
About chilling victory - human beings like fireworks and yellow numbers popping up are close to fireworks.
Something like a wearying strike can be used up to 10 times in one minute. Min of 10 enemies max of 30 per minute. Or a min of 600 enemies to a max of 1800 per hour.
Another curious thing is that the combo of Melandru (the avatar that costs more)+wearying strike used 10 per minute+eternal aura 1 per minute costs 25+50+10=85 energy, which is less than the cost of spamming WS.
Ok, you might not need spamming WS every time is ready, but then again isn't the reason to bring it in the first place that u need to spam it?
Most of the time the max number of enemies you will be fighting is 8 or less. Curiously, the bigger the number of the enemies present the easier is to hit several enemies at the same time, further reducing the number of times you need to use the dw skill, making the recharge advantage of WS even further.
Also curiously, is that when there are few enemies its easier for them to stay spread making it harder to hit several at a time. But then again, going from one enemy to the other takes time - and its not like you are going to dw one enemy, then move to the next and deep wound him, while your party finishes the first. Most likely what it happens is that you stay there till the enemy is dead and only then move to your next target.
I think this idea of you needing dw every 3 seconds stems from the fact people don't understand deep wound very well.
Deep wound reduces both max health and current health by 20% of the max health (to a maximum of 100). That means any level 21+ mob will lose 100 health, regarless of it being full health or under 20% health (or any other percentage).
A deep wound will always deal 100 damage (unless there is a deep wound already present).
Occasionally, in special circumstances, WS will be superior, but most of the time it will be inferior to an avatar, and if you are afraid of the 25 energy melandru, dwayna and grenths have quite decent abilities - grenth will life steal for 18 per hit.
About chilling victory - human beings like fireworks and yellow numbers popping up are close to fireworks.
reaper with no name
WS isn't as good as people like to claim it is, but it's still a very good skill.
Sure, the only time you'll need to apply a DW 3 sec after the last one is when engaging a new target.
However, the advantage of WS is that you can consistently apply the deep wound. Compare it to [Reaper's Sweep], in which you will only get a DW sometimes. Or [Pious Assault], in which you have to strip away an enchantment (that's 10 energy minimum for the DW, possibly 15, not to mention that that's one less enchantment fueling you to do whatever it is you're doing). Or [Wearying Strike], which is more trouble than it's worth unless you have AoM (in which case you also need Eternal Aura, which is 3 slots gone).
Also, you can't forget that it also inflicts bleeding. Technically, Wounding Strike is more damaging in the long run than Reaper's Sweep, because in the time it takes Reaper's Sweep to recharge, WS's bleeding will cause 48 damage and continue on for even longer, without the need for re-application.
As for Chilling Victory...Well, let's compare it to two popular scythe attacks: [Mystic Sweep] and [Eremite's Attack]. All three of these rely on certain conditions to do their thing. The latter two have half the cost of CV, but do less than half the damage, and the amount of targets their AoE hits is limited to 3 (CV's AoE has no such cap).
I also don't understand your apparent assertion that once enemies have less health than you, they are no longer a threat. They can still beat you down just as hard. Just because you have more health than the enemy doesn't mean they're about to die. Unless, of course, you hit them with an attack that will put them down quickly via extra damage due to their lack of health. Oh, wait, that's exactly what CV does.
In HM, you want to kill stuff as quickly as possible (or in NM, for that matter), in order to prevent them from putting a hurting on anyone and free you up to attack something else, right? CV helps you do that in a way that other scythe attacks don't. Is it an essential skill? No, I'll give that to you. But it's not like it sucks. It's at least as good as Mystic Sweep or Eremite's Attack (probably better, actually, since CV is intended more for finishing off things so you can move onto the next enemy, and there aren't really any other skills for that, but Victorious Sweep beats Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack at their own game).
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
Sure, the only time you'll need to apply a DW 3 sec after the last one is when engaging a new target.
However, the advantage of WS is that you can consistently apply the deep wound. Compare it to [Reaper's Sweep], in which you will only get a DW sometimes. Or [Pious Assault], in which you have to strip away an enchantment (that's 10 energy minimum for the DW, possibly 15, not to mention that that's one less enchantment fueling you to do whatever it is you're doing). Or [Wearying Strike], which is more trouble than it's worth unless you have AoM (in which case you also need Eternal Aura, which is 3 slots gone).
Also, you can't forget that it also inflicts bleeding. Technically, Wounding Strike is more damaging in the long run than Reaper's Sweep, because in the time it takes Reaper's Sweep to recharge, WS's bleeding will cause 48 damage and continue on for even longer, without the need for re-application.
As for Chilling Victory...Well, let's compare it to two popular scythe attacks: [Mystic Sweep] and [Eremite's Attack]. All three of these rely on certain conditions to do their thing. The latter two have half the cost of CV, but do less than half the damage, and the amount of targets their AoE hits is limited to 3 (CV's AoE has no such cap).
I also don't understand your apparent assertion that once enemies have less health than you, they are no longer a threat. They can still beat you down just as hard. Just because you have more health than the enemy doesn't mean they're about to die. Unless, of course, you hit them with an attack that will put them down quickly via extra damage due to their lack of health. Oh, wait, that's exactly what CV does.
In HM, you want to kill stuff as quickly as possible (or in NM, for that matter), in order to prevent them from putting a hurting on anyone and free you up to attack something else, right? CV helps you do that in a way that other scythe attacks don't. Is it an essential skill? No, I'll give that to you. But it's not like it sucks. It's at least as good as Mystic Sweep or Eremite's Attack (probably better, actually, since CV is intended more for finishing off things so you can move onto the next enemy, and there aren't really any other skills for that, but Victorious Sweep beats Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack at their own game).
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Another curious thing is that the combo of Melandru (the avatar that costs more)+wearying strike used 10 per minute+eternal aura 1 per minute costs 25+50+10=85 energy, which is less than the cost of spamming WS.
Occasionally, in special circumstances, WS will be superior, but most of the time it will be inferior to an avatar, and if you are afraid of the 25 energy melandru, dwayna and grenths have quite decent abilities - grenth will life steal for 18 per hit.
How does spamming a 5 en attack while maintaining a 25 en avatar via a 10 en skill cost less than a single 5 en attack? I agree with your assertion that DW spam every 3 sec is unnecessary, but that calculation seems to have come from where the sun don't shine.
Actually, I'd say that WS is better just as often as the avatars are. AoB is horrible (it's effects can be replicated without elite skills) and AoL and AoG are just pointless (why focus your entire build on damage or tanking when any warrior or assassin is going to beat you at it anyway? If you actually want your dervish to be anything besides a waste you have to focus on doing something that the warrior or assassin can't do as well).
AoM and AoD shine in areas with lots of conditions or hexes, but outside of stacks of them they really don't help all that much. As small a benefit as spammable bleeding and DW might seem, in the absence of lots of hexes or conditions it's the best a dervish can hope for, simply due to the fact that avatars require two skill slots to be effective and their benefits are either not enough or only useful in certain areas.
Bobby2
[chilling victory] So I heard people were okay with 10s cooldown on attack skills these days?
wtb [death blossom]
wtb [death blossom]
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Sure, the only time you'll need to apply a DW 3 sec after the last one is when engaging a new target.
However, the advantage of WS is that you can consistently apply the deep wound. Compare it to [Reaper's Sweep], in which you will only get a DW sometimes. Or [Pious Assault], in which you have to strip away an enchantment (that's 10 energy minimum for the DW, possibly 15, not to mention that that's one less enchantment fueling you to do whatever it is you're doing). Or [Wearying Strike], which is more trouble than it's worth unless you have AoM (in which case you also need Eternal Aura, which is 3 slots gone).
Also, you can't forget that it also inflicts bleeding. Technically, Wounding Strike is more damaging in the long run than Reaper's Sweep, because in the time it takes Reaper's Sweep to recharge, WS's bleeding will cause 48 damage and continue on for even longer, without the need for re-application.
Deep wound is as strong in the opening of a fight as it is in the mid.
Quote: As for Chilling Victory...Well, let's compare it to two popular scythe attacks: [Mystic Sweep] and [Eremite's Attack]. All three of these rely on certain conditions to do their thing. The latter two have half the cost of CV, but do less than half the damage, and the amount of targets their AoE hits is limited to 3 (CV's AoE has no such cap). Problems of chilling victory - cold damage. That means that against 100 armor foes it deals 29 damage. 40 vs armor 80. Mob casters in HM gain +3 armor per level after 20. So a level 26 caster has 78 armor - quite close to that 80 armor. Other mobs professions only get worse. Then you had huge cost and huge recharge.
Of course you also have to have more health to make it trigger. Not going to happen always.
A very popular dervish skill you left out is [victorious sweep].
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Wrong. CV is more spike less constant damage. With that recharge and cost you can use 2 vs.Quote:
Quote: How did I make that assumption regarding DW? I don't know about you, but I apply DW at the start and then watch them bleed out while I spam other scythe attacks. So how long do you take to kill a mob? Bleeding is 6 damage per second.
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What? Who is using WS every 3 sec? I know I'm not. Nor is anyone who actually knows what the skill is for.
So you don't need to use it every 3 seconds. But the only advantage of it over other deep wounds is the ability to use it every 3 seconds. Quote:
So basically your elite is sitting there idle most of the time.
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But an elite that is there doing nothing is? And there are more conditions than most folks seems to believe, especially in the places that are actually hard.
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Why waste the time swapping weapons and managing energy (when you could be killing stuff) if you don't have to? That's the problem. While you're swapping weapons and all that, you're not fighting. You're not contributing. Compensating for the energy cost of AoM does not negate it; you only sacrifice something else instead. Time or a skill slot or whatnot.
It is really time consuming to swap weapons... Quote:
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