Worry, thought, and preservation?

Your thoughts?

My thought is the free online games you're comparing GW to have a huge difference from GW--they're free. GW is not free, just subscription-free. Don't fret, GW2 will have the same business model as GW--you pay for the game, and you can get non-necessary stuff via microtransactions.

I do not get why you link to the NCsoft GW job offer?

I agree that there is a trend in the industry towards micropayment systems. Just see "Free Realms", I guess many games will follow this model.


The questions are: How far will they go?

What is optional?
How much storage and char slots do we get by default, e.g.

Will there be special incentives to buy something "special" from the shop? And how will it affect gameplay?



I guess we will have to TRUST ANet that they do not go too far. They might hurt themselves in the end if they do.

And there is always the option to vote with the feet. I just fear that this does not matter that much, a lot of players paying a tiny sum now and then, and a few players buying a lot and voila, the system works perfectly.

"Thought:
My thought on this is that if this becomes a problem and I see a lot of people running around and using a voltaic spear from a “Random Weapon Pack -Contains 1 of 20 Extremely Rare Skin weapons, customized upon opening” or someone wearing obsidian armor set from a “Armor Kit -Contains one of 4 Armor Tokens -Bound tokens that can be traded for an elite armor set of the same type” then Im going to just Sign out for good and wait for Guild Wars 2."

O.O
-Shudder-
Evil...........

The things you pay for are bonus that you don't need. More storage isn't necessary and neither are characters. You paid for the base items now if you want more you can pay for them.

I am glad I do not pay a monthly fee because I am making out pretty good.

Personally, I'd have no problem with micro-payments systems for EVERYTHING in-game, assuming they were also attainable for free.

First time on Guru I'm using /facepalm.

There are so many things wrong, but basically: " if it becomes another “Pay for the good stuff” kind of game"

Like in GW1, "good stuff" is easy to get, max armor and weapons. VS never was "good stuff", it's popular stuff but not any better than my gold spear.

Please, please, hope this thread is not going to evolve into a twisting of words (storage as a game-altering feature)...

It seems to me that "MMO-to-Web" can mean a number of things, not just integration of the game with a store. Could be a better help system, /reporting system, customer relations (such as better access to GW news and announcements), bug tracking, etc.

Truth is they haven't crossed the line and I doubt they ever will, they just offered extra features not needed to enjoy and play the game. Xunlai Panes are a luxury, make-overs are a luxury, and all the other features they offer are attainable ingame for free.

Anet is a company like all others and they want to make money, of where some or most will go to development of GW2. I rather have this with 'luxury' optional items in a free game, than 'free' items in a pay-to-play game.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=20346

Quick search yeilded this real long article, way down at the bottom were a few comments:

"It's all about managing the cost of the client. Rather than spend tons of cash on custom client programming, including incredible complex patching and updating software, you use the web.

You also have complete control over content - content is never loaded to the user (well, in their cache it is and savy users will be able to find it, but the casual user will have trouble). It will also be impossible for users to create custom mods since the content is always served by the creators."

If this is what ANET is after then looks like they want to keep costs down and still bring us buy once to play. May have nothing to do with micro transactions.

I hate to derail the sky is falling thread but if you continue reading the listing

Experience with modern web protocols and data formats (REST, JSON, SOAP, etc.)

Each of these protocols are methods for developing what's called a Web Service. That is a method for integrating or interacting with a thirdparty system over the web (sometimes called an API depending on exact usage and requirements).

They don't need anybody to develop a purchase system, they already have that. What they don't have is a web service capacity. The ability to transmit, share, etc information coming from the servers. A prominent (if not slightly simplified) example of this type of information would be WoW's Armory.

Perhaps these links would've been more useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Service

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOAP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON

Has ANet introduced items that are:

a) more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players" or
b) offer an advantage of feature otherwise unavailable?

The answer is no. Most of what they offer through their online stores are merely cosmetic in nature. Look at the BMP, do those weapons give higher damage than what can be obtained freely? Not really, but they have unique skins, so what? You can also buy a Pet unlock pack, but what advantage does that give you besides the cosmetic?

In fact, I would go so far to say that Voltaic Spears should be available in their online stores, as long as they dont give extra damage from the other maxed spears.

Why? Because I hate grind farming and boring trading, sitting in the game for hours with wtb and wts instead of playing it. Also because of our lifestyle differences (I have a job, a house, a mortage, and kids), I dont have as much time to play as many of you. I would rather buy a Voltaic Spear than to grind for it.

Sure, if the game rewards only grinding time and those whose lifestyle is based on zero responsibilities, I would definitely lose out. Anything that is based on in-game grind, and only cosmetic, should be made available in the store.

Why worry about what you have no control over?

Get this in your head: Guild Wars 2, if it ever appears, is a product, not a service. If you don't want it, you don't buy it. ANet is not obligated to cater to anyone. They can do whatever they want. That's what makes it a product.

Ugh, this thread is going in too many directions and we're still on the front page. See Hyprocyon's post please. MMO-to-web services doesn't mean micropayments.

I think the BMP proves Anet's philosophy.

Bonus content, exclusive rewards. Tengu, Charr, Undead, and Mursaat weapons all look really good, and they are exclusive to those who have the BMP.

This means, if you get a prestige rewards from DLC, it's not going to be something you find in the game naturally. You'll never have to worry about Voltaic Spears or Obsidian armor being given away in DLC.

OP is grasping at straws. The stated job description more than likely refers to incorporating a web browser into the game (like in Darkfall, I believe), stuff like /wiki and /help, maybe an auction house that people can log onto just using a web browser but is also tied directly into the game, stuff like that. How you managed to pull "micropayments" out of there, I have no idea.

I work as a developer for a company creating software for TV broadcasting. Everything we do goes through a central server with database(s) across networks (sound similar to MMO architecture?). We use SOAP, XML and other "web based" languages to interface between the clients and servers because the protocol is light, easily scalable and has the beauty of being very easy to interface from the web, which makes less work if we want to do a web based client, or knock up something quick if we want to monitor a system remotely. This job advert looks to me like nothing more than ANet trying to stay with or ahead of the curve in terms of reusable and modern code and practices.

Quite frankly I'm excited they want to do this. There's a lot of power in that approach - as Skky says possibility of an Auction House, extention of /wiki (which is still a beta system incidentally).

Not to mention a Guild recruit webpage that directly integrates with the game. Or a system similiar to WoW's Armory, that displays character build, stats, achievements, etc. The possibilities are endless.

This. WoW Armory is a great example of what can be done in this way. (And at least it's an example of a better game than Darkfall)

There are real threats of a change in business model, in the death of the good old system based entirely on buying complete products, but this job offer may just as well be something entirely different.

Web services may be something that improves or hurts the game and the range of possibilities is massive.

We can hope it's about something like WoW armory, an improved Guild ladder or Tournament to web live reporting, or a better support system, or a game info site that gets data straight from the game.

But it can be a nightmare money making machine, like the XTH taken to a new level, or a big Online Store with connections to direct character and account upgrades, done on a website instead of ingame itself just to support many more methods of payment (like Paypal).

You mean like the NCSoft site? If so, we already have it. If not, I'd expect this to be in NCSoft's realm rather than Anets. I'm curious as to how you could see the XTH being turned into a money spinner, although that could be an entirely different thread.

Web-based auction house for GW items with a real money transaction fee? :P

Could be anything, I'll worry about it if it happens.

I wonder if the future will bring us something that has already been introduced by Bethesda for their offline-RPGs, Oblivion and Fallout 3.

"DLC" - Downloadable Content.

So far the results make one cry.

Three packs have been released so far:

1. Operation Anchorage: Some bugs, very very short and linear, a ultra-powerful weapon and some extra goodies, armor and weapons.

2. The Pitt: Better story, also some new weapons and armors, but nothing like the Gauss Rifle of "OP" Anchorage (OP like overpowered...^^). Still not much bang for the buck.

3. Broken Steel - level 30, some more content. I am playing it right now and it seems to offer the best bang for the buck so far. The content delivered is still unpolished and again the player gets some over the top and some totally crap perks and weapons.

The price is around 8 EUR / 10$, you can get it over XBox LIVE stuff, you pay with "points" which roughly equal the prices I mentioned.

Sins of a Solar Empire also offers the micro-expansion "Entrenchment" for 10 bucks.



The delivered content is indeed "micro", and while 10 bucks are not that much, we pay quite a LOT, especially compared to the main program.

Fallout 3 has so much more to offer than all 3 DLCs together, which cost quite much. The same is true for Sins of a Solar Empire. I shelled out a lot of money for mine fields and starbases, that was it.


"Web services does not equal micro payments." - WRONG. At least not entirely correct.
Web services are not always about micro payment stuff, as Hypocryon mentioned. They already have their shop. But this does not mean that web services cannot be used for transactions.

We already have the XTH, the GW Wiki and stuff like that. Seems they are going the "Web 2.0" route and try to blend it into the game client.


I just wonder that people still have so much faith in ANet NOT screwing up, in regards to defining whats "OPTIONAL" or not. I say it again, I see storage not as "luxury" option, they are already borderline with that.

If we follow the notion that GW evolved, but also ran into a dead end and ended up as a convoluted mess of half-baken ideas it is even harder to understand that people are NOT concerned about the future of GW2.

Give "Free Realms" a try, and the word "free" gets an entirely new meaning... :>

Xunlai Tournament House says hello to you.

If they go further with micropayments, they'll lose lots of players. But since the game runs with SQL, there are lot of things that can be done with web pages with less load than in-game.

Hm... first we'll see what they do, they already got pretty bad responses from many users when they added micropayments for appearance changes.

Somehow i doubt that the "pretty bad responses" they got from Guru about GW1 updates or features will have any weight on their business decisions for GW2.

I have the opposite view, they dont have enough things in their shop for me to buy. Most of the stuff are not worth buying or you can get it elsewhere for a much cheaper price.

ANet is too afraid of players QQ to put special skins like voltaic spears or some of their best unique weapons/armor designs in their stores. This means the game is becoming more of a time sink for mere cosmetic rewards. This is also the reason why many of my gamer friends, with full time jobs, avoided playing MMOs like Guild Wars. You dont feel like you can ever be "on-par" with the kids who have no real life responsibilities.

This is why after playing 4 years, I am still working on my HoM which is why I probably wont be buying GW2 until I find the time to complete it. If I can buy tormented weapons in their stores, that would save me time. It is really hard trying to get a successful PUG for foundry.

If it is anything that make life easier like weapons in Bonus misson Pack its ok because skins is not equal character strength.

But if its something like everlasting essence of celerity then things gonna gets ugly.Hardmode with something like that going to make people go hench and heroes more.

This is an interesting notion, as they actually should love GW. No monthly fee, and you are easily on the same power level as other players.
OK, not when it comes to the PvE skills tied to title tracks... something else to discuss in this matter.

But in terms of weapons, I have a full set of STR/TAC Shields of the Wing and lots of Norn Shields in all possible +10 vs X variations for my Warriors, Paragons and Rangers.

There are pretty awesome skins out there that are not elite, and I do not get it how it discourages people from playing.

I also do not have an obsidian armor, I just do not have the patience to farm that many ectos for an armor, and I did not like the female Necro armor (I got the Vabbi instead).


Should you not rather ask ANet to remove tedious repetition and grind than asking to BUY destroyer/tormented weapons in the shop??????

Well, my friends think that at least GW should have fewer grind than most other MMOs BUT if they ask me about it, I would honestly say there are real grinds within GW since Factions/NF.

PvE skills whose effectiveness is based on titles is a grind. Lightbringer/SS is a grind. Even getting your HoM ready is a grind. You need 11 destroyers/tormentors weapons and even though account-based HoM reduced that grind you still need 11 of those weapons per account.

Now, it is extremely difficult to find a PUG in DoA if you dont play one of the "required" class and even if you do, most PUGs fail there anyway. Destroyer weapons are expensive to make, so if I cant get my HoM ready, I am not ready for GW2 even if it is released right now.

If ANet can create a new class of Weapon X that can be displayed in HoM then put it for sale on their online store would make it easier for people to get ready for GW2. Otherwise good luck finding a PUG that can clear foundry. Or I would just have to farm granite slowly or spend huge amount of gold for all the required materials for destroyer weapons.

So far GW is adding micro payment for things that do not radically effect game play

Storage, name changes and Appearance changes are all superficial.

the most radical "micropayment thing they have added is the BMB adds its ability to provide a free q9 max weapon and even that is not a show stopper as the weapons are unmoded and a q9 max weapon can be gotten by anyone anyway.

i see arena net having pay for services that are attractive and yet not game braking or giving an unfair advantage on the pay docket

And that is why I am ok with ANet selling weapon "skins", like Voltaic spear or tormentor's, in their online store but they seem to be too afraid of the player community to do that. Afterall they have already sold skins in the form of BMP. None of these weapons give an unfair advantage where the in-game mechanics is concerned.

They can reduce the grind for the weapon in HoM by either allowing MORE weapons to be displayed in HoM than just destroyers/tormentors. Or they can sell destroyers/tormentors in their online store.

And they're all full of bugs, especially Broken Steel.

I doubt NCsoft brings anything to the online store that breaks game balance, such as better weapons etc. Only aesthetic differences, maybe storage. Which doesn't bother me at all.

- True and that would be tragic mistake to imbalance game. Many people seem to ignore the fact that the game has strong social aspect. Your avatar represents something and your titles represent what you've done in the game. Think about would you want as a gamer to play a game where your character's looks represent only the amount of money you've spent on cash shops. Even today the line between personal achievements and powertraded goods is becoming hazy. Just because you have zaishen title doesn't mean you have anything to do with PvP, as you can pay your way to next ranks with ingame gold. Pets don't need to be raised anymore (gaming), as NPCs do that too - for a right price (farming). This alongside with messed up playbalance means that we're approaching point where ingame things don't represent anything, they don't have meaning in social sense.

You can call it convenience and skillful dodging of power creep, but like it or not it microtransactions will ruin social aspect of games. It's abysmal design that creators create games of grind and then offer some "shortcuts" with real life cash. This is the reason why Guild Wars remains my first and last MMO game I've bought.

First of all, I wouldn't equate in-game gold with real world cash. They are not the same. It is wrong to buy in-game gold with money and I have never done that.

Even though you can practically buy the ZaiShen title with in-game gold, you still can't buy titles from the online store.

As for looks, they should be able to buy at least unique skins from the online store if they dont want to interfere with the game. Just like the BMP. If the skins are good, people would buy them rather than grind for them.

Grind is one thing, skill is something else. I shouldn't be able to buy PvP titles or any item that would give me an advantage in pvp from the online store. But PvE grind should be reduced OR provide another way out to play this game for the adults with full time jobs. Otherwise, this becomes a game for people with no jobs or no responsibilities and I dont feel right recommending GW to my gamer friends since they have told me that they hate the grind time sink. I can't say there is minimal grind in GW since it doesn't feel that way to me. And my gamer friends spend HUGE amount of money on their games compared to me and would rather spend than grind.

If they hate grind to the extent that is in Guild Wars, then I wonder if they're better off playing a mmo fps than an mmo rpg/cg. Left 4 Dead is good.

Are you mad? Have you seen the grind in L4D? Beating every campaign in expert, killing 1000 infected with a chain gun, killing 52,000+ infected... the grind is endless.

If they hate grinding, then they should stop playing MMO's. There's no possible way to have enough content to please everyone.